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Offline imaknick

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free will Question
« on: December 24, 2013, 07:14:34 PM »
If G-d intended for Jews to be punished during slavery in Egypt and the Holocaust, Did Pharaoh and Hitler (Yemach shmo) serve Hashem's will? Hence, Did Pharaoh and Hitler actually have Free Will?  If they had free will then they certainly did evil with evil intentions, but if God punished Jews then how do they have free will?

Offline muman613

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2013, 07:45:05 PM »
If G-d intended for Jews to be punished during slavery in Egypt and the Holocaust, Did Pharaoh and Hitler (Yemach shmo) serve Hashem's will? Hence, Did Pharaoh and Hitler actually have Free Will?  If they had free will then they certainly did evil with evil intentions, but if God punished Jews then how do they have free will?

imaknick,

Very good question, and one which is not too difficult to answer...

Indeed Hashem intended for the Jewish people to be oppressed during our exiles, the purpose of exile is really to cause us to long for our own land where Jews have complete sovereignty over our people. Exile is supposed to be uncomfortable.

But the reason Pharoah and Egypt were evil was because while they were supposed to oppress us, the Egyptians took pleasure from oppressing us going far beyond the level of oppression that Hashem intended for us. So too with the hated Nazis, they really enjoyed oppressing us and they went far beyond any decree which Hashem intended for us.

The Jews of Europe had become too comfortable in the exile, so Hashem caused the nations to oppress us.

This is the pattern which the Torah reveals to us. It is going on till this day.

We need an autonomous Jewish state in the promised Holy land more than ever now.

http://www.torah.org/advanced/ravhirsch/5771/shemos.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2013, 07:49:19 PM »
Hashem promised Abraham the land... While Abraham was the most aware of Hashem of anyone, he had some doubt about the promise. It is for this, the sages say, that Hashem sent the children of Abraham down to Egypt in order to forge them into the 'Holy Nation' which Moses would eventually lead to the Holy Land.

Our free will revolves around whether the Jew will observe the commandments, or if we reject them.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2013, 07:52:49 PM »
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/kahn/archives/vaera72.htm

Torah Attitude: Parshas Va'Eira: The multiple purposes of the Egyptian plagues

Summary

G'd punished the Egyptians with plagues. The hardening of Pharaoh's heart seems to contradict free will. "And I will multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt … and Egypt will know that I am G'd." Whenever G'd punishes a nation for their sins, there is an additional purpose to remind the Jewish people of the grave consequences when one does not follow G'd's instructions. The Jews in Egypt did not fully grasp the message that came with the plagues. Every year we have an opportunity again to internalize G'd's message and understand how G'd conducts the world for our benefit.

Egyptians punished with plagues

In this week's parasha, the Torah describes how G'd punished the Egyptians with the first seven of the ten plagues. The early commentaries ask why the Egyptians were punished, as G'd had decreed the suffering of the Jewish people in this exile (see Bereishis 15:13-14). The Ra'avad (in his annotations on the Rambam's Laws of Teshuvah (repentance) 6:5) explains that although G'd had decreed that the Jewish people would suffer, He already revealed to Abraham that the nation that would oppress them would be punished for mistreating the Jewish people. For the Egyptians obviously did not commit their atrocities against the Jews in order to fulfill G'd's prophecy to Abraham but due to reasons of their own.

Harden Pharaoh's heart

However, if this was the only purpose it would have been sufficient with one major plague, like the death of the first born. This plague would continue until Pharaoh broke down and agreed to send the Jews out of Egypt. An additional difficulty arises as G'd informed Moses and said (Shemos 7:3): "And I will harden the heart of Pharaoh." This seems to contradict the basic concept of man's free will.

G'd's signs and wonders
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline imaknick

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2013, 07:55:27 PM »
Thanks Muman!

Online angryChineseKahanist

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2013, 09:19:22 PM »
How do you explain China where the Jews live comfortably in their own partitions?
I don't know of Jews chained up by Chinese. They haven't been kicked out either. In fact they've interbred.
U+262d=U+5350=U+9774

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2013, 11:13:37 PM »
Great classical question- (Even though I didn't read all of Muman's answer) but the reason is like this- Hashem said that Bnai Yisrael will be enslaved in a land that isn't their's. He didn't say WHERE and not exactly when. The Egyptians out of their own free will choose to enslave, murder, etc (do evil) against Bnai Yisrael for their own purposes and not because Hashem wanted them to, nor were they commanded to. Soo because of their free will choice together with the punishment (or "training" whichever way you want to look at it) that Bnai Yisrael had Hashem just put 1 and 1 together.
 Same with different examples such as a thief stealing your wallet. It might have been decreed that you were to loose your wallet but who told that thief to steal it? In fact he was commanded not to (general commandment for all). The fact that you were to loose your wallet could have happened in many different ways. You could have dropped it down a sewer or something. You could have had it stolen by another thief. Or you could have had it never given to you in the first place (make less wages that would have been in your pocket).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline kyel

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2013, 01:46:20 AM »
Of Course Jews have free wills like everyone else. That is why there are so many Nazi Erev Rav Jews around today.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2013, 07:07:03 AM »
G-d chooses the most evil people to punish us, but they are still guilty.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline imaknick

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2013, 11:44:13 AM »
Great answers!
However, Where is the Free Will when Rivka gave birth to Yaakov and Esav? Hashem told Rebecca that she will have two sons and the elder will be a serve to the younger.  Does that mean hashem made Esav evil and thus made Esav serve Yaakov?

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2013, 11:50:02 AM »
Great answers!
However, Where is the Free Will when Rivka gave birth to Yaakov and Esav? Hashem told Rebecca that she will have two sons and the elder will be a serve to the younger.  Does that mean hashem made Esav evil and thus made Esav serve Yaakov?

 Great question, I was wondering the same thing. I didn't find an answer to it yet though.

 I also think that we need to get back and the exact source from where it came from and what was said exactly, perhaps it was and is something not exactly of what we or is commonly thought.

 1 thing she was told from what I remember was that she had 2 great (or majestic) nations in her womb, afterwards she calmed down, some people ask why? Because she thought she might have had another Ishmael.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2013, 01:06:00 PM »
Also to last question- that part isn't soo problematic because it was a Prophecy given for what will happen in the FUTURE and not that it infringed upon Esav's free will. Just as G-D wrote in the Torah about the Prophecy of the future exile (and eventual return), no one forced the people to act the way they did just it was Known and revealed by Him who is Above Time and Space of what will happen.

 BUT on the other hand your question can be stronger and asked this way- if we have free will how and why did Yakov and Esav fight inside her womb. They weren't even born yet and how could they have had any free will?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2013, 03:53:53 PM »
This discussion brings up the whole issue of 'what exactly is free will'.

Free will operates within a small space. We do not choose when we are born, nor to whom we are born to, nor the social status of our parents, nor our physical features. We are not 100% free will, we must exercise our free will within the confines of our 'life setting' as Rabbi Shafier calls it.

Each of us are born with unique capability, we are not (as the seculars say) all born equal. Some people are born heavier, some lighter, some grow taller, some shorter...Some people are smarter, and others are more agile with their hands.

Essau was born with the traits of a hunter, a man of the field, while Jacob was given the traits of bookishness and intellect. Each of them had free will to do as they saw fit to do with the capabilities they were born with.

Essau, though predestined to be the hunter, chose to be evil.... Jacob, though predestined to be an intellectual, chose to do what he did... In the end Jacob proved  that he was capable of thriving in both the intellectual world (classroom, beit medresh) and in the rough and tumble world of Essau and Laban...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2013, 03:59:11 PM »
The Jewish sages state that there are natural forces in the world which influence our lives. In a sense this is considered Astrology. Judaism forbids us looking to the stars to determine our future, but we do acknowledge that everything in Hashems universe exerts unseen forces on each of us. These physical features can be 'predestined' based on our birth date...




http://steinsaltz.org/learning.php?pg=Daf_Yomi&articleId=3024
Quote
Shabbat 156a-b - Astrology in the Talmud
March 08, 2013
 
 
On today’s daf (=page) the Gemara turns its attention to the question of astrology and the influence of the stars on people.
 
Astrology, which was considered to be a serious science over the course of many generations, was highly developed in Babylonia. Nevertheless, the Talmud discusses astrology relatively infrequently and when it does, the discussion is on the level of folklore, lacking development or complexity. This is apparently because most of the Sages maintained that the constellations do not control the Jewish people. Some of the qualities ascribed here to various astrological signs are related to the visible qualities of the stars themselves, like the qualities attributed to the sun and the moon. Those born under the sign of Venus are ascribed certain qualities because the luminaries were hung on that day. This may be explained because the conclusion of Shabbat is the time associated with Venus, and it is also the time when, according to the Rabbis, fire was discovered by people. Mercury is described as the sun’s scribe because even the early astrologers were aware that it was the closest planet to the sun. Saturn is generally regarded as a sign related to misfortune, even though it is ascribed a different meaning here. Jupiter is considered a sign of fortune and righteousness. Mars was considered to be a sign of war and murder, because of its red color and because of its association with the Roman god Mars.
 
Do the stars truly affect us?
The Gemara relates:
 
It was stated that Rabbi Ĥanina says: A constellation makes one wise and a constellation makes one wealthy, and there is a constellation for the Jewish people that influences them. Rabbi Yoĥanan said: There is no constellation for the Jewish people that influences them. The Jewish people are not subject to the influence of astrology. And Rabbi Yoĥanan follows his own reasoning, as Rabbi Yoĥanan said: From where is it derived that there is no constellation for the Jewish people? As it is stated: “Thus said the Lord: Learn not the way of the nations, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the nations are dismayed at them” (Yirmiyahu 10:2). The nations will be dismayed by them, but not the Jewish people.
 
Many commentaries discussed Rabbi Ĥanina’s opinion and concluded that he does not mean to say that everything is determined by one’s constellation. He himself stated: Everything is in the hands of Heaven, except for fear of Heaven; i.e., the choice between good and evil remains in the purview of human beings.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2013, 04:04:21 PM »
This Aish article discusses a little this concept (and it appears my answer is correct according to this):



http://www.aish.com/tp/i/oai/Free-Will-or-Predestination.html

Toldot(Genesis 25:19-28:9)
Free Will or Predestination

"And the children clashed within her." (Genesis 25:22)

Whenever she passed the entrances to the House of Study of Eber, Jacob struggled to exit, [whenever] she passed the entrance to houses of idol worship, Esau struggled to exit (Rashi)

The Midrash cited by Rashi requires much study, for it seems to imply that Esau and Jacob were already fixed in their tendencies to evil and righteousness, respectively, prior to birth. That would seem to contradict the very foundation of Torah: the principle of free will.

The Midrash also seems to contradict another teaching of the Sages. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 91b) relates that Rebbe Yehudah, the descendant of Jacob, and the Roman leader Antoninus, the descendant of Esau, debated when the yetzer hara enters a person. Rebbe Yehudah maintained that it enters at conception, and Antoninus maintained that it enters at birth. After Antoninus brought scriptural proof to bolster his opinion, Rebbe Yehudah acquiesced that it enters only at birth.

Yet the Midrash, cited above, seems to attribute a yetzer hara to Esau prior to birth!

Maimonides begins Hilchos De'os with a discussion of in-born personality traits and predispositions. For instance, he writes, some people are by nature cruel and others merciful. Yet Maimonides in the fifth chapter of Hilchos Teshuvah is emphatic that a person's nature does not cause him to be righteous or evil, merciful or cruel, wise or foolish, generous or stingy. The choice lies completely in his own hands.

Aside from the apparent contradiction with Hilchos De'os, this statement is problematic for another reason. The assertion that wisdom or foolishness is not decreed seems to contradict the Talmud (Niddah 16b), which states clearly that wealth, strength, and intelligence are decreed at conception. Only whether one will be righteous or wicked is not decreed.

Resolution of the problem of in-born traits with individual free will is based on the following premise: While no two people are born with the same exact character traits, and those traits are influenced by many factors - including spiritual forces both prior to and at conception - these traits are not inherently good or bad. They are "pareve." A predilection towards anger, for instance, is not necessarily an evil trait. There are situations when anger is required and is the correct response [e.g. displaying anger when a child does something dangerous].

Similarly, all natural traits and tendencies can be directed in both positive and negative directions. The tendency to shed blood, for instance, can be utilized as a shochet (butcher), a mohel, or surgeon, or alternatively it can be directed towards crime and murder. Although the character traits are predetermined, their function and control are totally in the hands of the individual. He exercises his free will in utilizing them for good or bad, and suppressing these tendencies when necessary.

Wisdom and intelligence are two distinct realms. One can have the IQ of a genius and act like a fool, and one can lack a high IQ and yet act with wisdom. Although intelligence is largely predetermined, as the Talmud states, whether one acts wisely or foolishly is, as Maimonides writes, a function of one's free will.

There is, however, one point that still needs to be clarified. While it is true that no single character trait or tendency is intrinsically good or bad, there are nevertheless certain traits that are more conducive to righteous conduct and those more prone to evil. A tendency towards anger, for example, is more prone to be abused, since there are more instances where anger is negative than where it is positive. By contrast, a natural tendency towards calmness is more prone to lead one to righteous conduct, since there are more instances where this behavior is positive than not.

Thus the difference in natural tendencies might seem to contain an element of injustice. But three points must be kept in mind. First, every person embodies a myriad of character traits. Though someone may be born with a trait that is predominantly negative, he will almost certainly have other traits that are predominantly positive.

Secondly, God takes into consideration one's predispositions in determining the situations he will be confronted with in life.

Finally, as the Vilna Gaon states, God judges each individual in relation to his specific nature. Hence, a person prone to anger by nature will be judged less harshly if he succumbs to a fit of anger than a person who is by nature calm. Likewise, a person with a predisposition to anger will receive more reward for controlling his anger than a person with a calm disposition.

Considered in this light, the Midrash is not telling us that Jacob and Esau were acting in a good or evil fashion prior to birth. Rather they displayed tendencies toward either the more spiritual aspects of this world or the more physical. The houses of Torah study represent the epitome of spirituality and those of idolatry the epitome of physicality (idol worship being the deification of physical forces).

Esau and Jacob ideally represented the partnership necessary to bring this world to perfection - the mastery and perfection of the physical world as a basis for spiritual perfection. The Jewish people would need both the Tribe of Yehudah, from whom the kings came and whose role was to master the world and conquer the forces of evil, and the Tribe of Levi from whom the High Priest (Kohen Gadol) came and whose role was to provide spiritual guidance and inspiration.

The Sages tell us that Jacob and Esau divided Olam Hazeh (this world) and Olam Haba (the World to Come) between themselves; Esau taking the former and Jacob the latter. This does not mean that Esau divested himself of a share in Olam Haba before birth, but rather that these two embryos had the ultimate potential to control the physical world and the spiritual world respectively. Had Esau used his traits and tendencies properly, he could have become a partner with Jacob in bringing the world to perfection. Similarly, had Jacob abused his traits, he could have developed into one who distorted and corrupted spiritual concepts and values.

The example of what the partnership of Jacob and Esau could have been was epitomized by their descendants: Antoninus - the might of Rome conquering the physical world, and Rebbe Yehudah - the spirituality of Israel directing it toward spiritual values and goals. Nowhere does it state that Esau wanted to serve idolatry, only that he had a tendency towards it; he was just as capable of destroying idolatry and vanquishing the idolaters, as serving and promoting it. His mother Rebecca, says the Sifsei Kohen, deliberately passed by these places of idolatry in order to influence the heathens to renounce their idolatry.

Now we can understand why Isaac wanted to give Esau the blessing, and loved Esau the hunter more than Jacob, the diligent student. Esau deceived Isaac into thinking that he could employ his tendencies towards the physical world to conquer the world for Torah and subdue the forces of evil. Isaac attributed the differences he noted in Esau's and Jacob's behavior - the fact that Esau did not mention God's name and acted without proper courtesy - to Esau's role as the mighty warrior who spoke with force and not finesse. He assumed that Esau was afraid to mention God's name out of fear that he might forget himself in places to which his mission in life would inevitably bring him where mentioning God's name is prohibited.

Isaac thought that Esau was utilizing his unique traits for the good. True, in less than sublime ways, but that is the role of a king, who has to engage in war and to meet evil head-on to maintain justice in the world. Therefore Isaac desired to give the blessings, which were all material in nature, to Esau, who would need them to fulfill his role. Jacob, he felt, did not need those blessings in the safe confines of the tents of learning.

Only Rebecca saw through the righteous facade of Esau and recognized his deceptive ways - in part because of her familiarity with her own family of frauds and charlatans. She alone was able to expose Esau for what he really was and cause Isaac to see that both roles would be the domain of Jacob - that Jacob would be the sole progenitor of the future Jewish people. Esau had exercised his free will to channel his tendencies toward evil, thereby disqualifying himself from a position in the future nation.

Parshas Toldot should serve as an incentive to us to delve into our own personalities, to better understand our natural tendencies, so that we can develop and channel our unique traits to their most sublime purpose: the perfection of the world through the promotion of Torah and Divine service.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2013, 04:16:31 PM »
This is what the Chabad Rebbe taught about Yaakov and Essau:

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/15573/jewish/Jacob-and-Esau.htm

Jacob and Esau
Based on the teachings of the Lubavitcher Rebbe

In many respects, the Torah's account of Isaac's family reads like a replay of Abraham's. Many years of childlessness are followed by the birth of two sons--the elder one wicked and the younger one righteous. Isaac favors the elder son, Esau, much as Abraham is sympathetic toward his elder son, Ishmael, while Rebecca, like Sarah, perseveres in her efforts to ensure that the younger, righteous son is recognized as the true heir of Abraham and the sole progenitor of the "great nation" which G-d promised to establish from his seed.

There is, however, a significant difference between the two sets of brothers.

Ishmael and Isaac were born of two different mothers: Ishmael was the son of Hagar, a former Egyptian princess still attached to her pagan ways, while Isaac was the son of the righteous Sarah. Furthermore, Ishmael was born when Abraham was still Abram and still uncircumcised, and can be said to belong to his father's imperfect past (Abraham was born into a family of idolaters and is even described as having himself worshipped idols in his youth), while Isaac was conceived after Abraham had attained the perfection signified by his name change and circumcision.

On the other hand, Esau and Jacob were twins, born of the same righteous mother and raised in the same holy environment. Their father, Isaac, was "a burnt-offering without blemish" who was circumcised on the eighth day of his life and who never set foot outside of the Holy Land. Unlike his father, he had no idolatrous past and no "pre-Isaac" period in his life. So where did Esau's "evil genes" come from?

Even more puzzling is the fact that Esau's wickedness seems predestined from the womb. If Esau had turned bad later in life, we might attribute this to the fact that every man is given absolute freedom of choice to be righteous or wicked. But how are we to explain Esau's gravitation to evil even before he was born?

The Lubavitcher Rebbe explains that the fact that Esau was naturally inclined toward idolatry was not, in and of itself, a negative thing. It meant that his ordained mission in life was the conquest of evil rather than the cultivation of good.

Jacob and Esau are the prototypes for two types of souls, each with a distinct role to play in the fulfillment of the Divine purpose in creation. Maimonides calls these two spiritual types "the perfectly pious" and "the one who conquers his inclinations"; Rabbi Schneur Zalman refers to them as the "Tzaddik" and the "Beinoni." Humanity is divided into these two types, writes Rabbi Schneur Zalman in his Tanya, because "there are two kinds of gratification before G-d. The first is generated by the good achieved by the perfectly righteous. But G-d also delights in the conquest of evil which is still at its strongest and most powerful in the heart, through the efforts of the ordinary, unperfected individual."

Thus Rabbi Schneur Zalman explains the Talmud passage which cites Job as crying out to G-d: "Master of the Universe! You have created righteous people, and You have created wicked people!" The actual righteousness or wickedness of a person is not predetermined by G-d--in the words of Maimonides, free choice is "a fundamental principle and a pillar of the Torah and its commandments," without which "What place would the entire Torah have? And by what measure of justice would G-d punish the wicked and reward the righteous?" Yet Job is right--G-d does indeed create "righteous people" and "wicked people" in the sense that while certain souls enjoy a life wholly devoted to developing what is good and holy in G-d's world, other souls must struggle against negative traits and ominous perversions implanted within them in order to elicit that special delight that can come only from the conquest of evil.

This, says the Lubavitcher Rebbe, is the deeper significance of Rashi's commentary on the opening words of our parshah. Citing the verse, "And these are the generations of Isaac," Rashi comments: "Jacob and Esau who are mentioned in the parshah." The simple meaning of this commentary is that the word toldot ("generations") can also refer to a person's deeds and achievements (cf. Rashi's commentary on Genesis 6:9); Rashi is telling us that here the word toldot is to be understood in its literal sense--the children of Isaac, though these are named only further on in the parshah.

On a deeper level, says the Rebbe, Rashi is addressing the question: How does an "Esau" come to be a descendant of Isaac and Rebecca? How do two perfectly righteous individuals produce an offspring who is evil from birth?

So Rashi tells us: the "generations of Isaac" are the "Jacob and Esau who are mentioned in the parshah." The wicked Esau we know is not a product of Isaac but the result of Esau's own failure to overpower his negative inclinations. The Esau of the parshah--Esau as viewed from the perspective of Torah, where everything is seen in its innermost and truest light--is not evil, but the instrument of conquest over evil. The Esau of the parshah is the purveyor of the "second delight" and an indispensable element of the purpose of life on earth.

In this also lies the deeper deeper meaning of the Midrash that describes Jacob and Esau fighting in the womb "over the inheritance of the two worlds" (i.e., the material world and the "world to come"). This would seem to be one area in which they would have no quarrel: the Esau we know desires the materialism of the physical world and shuns everything that is G-dly and spiritual, while the reverse is true of Jacob. So what were they fighting over?

Explains the Rebbe: The "world to come" is not a reality that is disconnected from our present existence. Rather, it is the result of our present-day efforts in dealing with and perfecting the material world. The world of Moshiach is the culmination of all positive achievements of history, the era in which the cosmic yield of mankind’s every good deed will come to light.

In other words, our present world is the means and the "world to come" is the goal. This is the deeper significance of Jacob’s claim on the "world to come," and Esau’s (and here we speak of the “Torah’s Esau,” the righteous conqueror of his inclinations) preference for the present world. Jacob sees perfection as the only desirable state of man, while Esau sees the struggle with imperfection as desirable in and of itself.

Yet both Jacob and Esau recognize the necessity for both of “the two worlds,” for the process and its outcome. The “perfectly pious” man also requires the material world as the vehicle that leads to ultimate perfection. And the “conqueror” also sees perfection as the goal to which his efforts lead. For although his purpose in life is defined by the process itself, a process, by definition, must have a goal.

So this is their "fight." Jacob and Esau each lay claim to both worlds as part of their life’s endeavor. But their priorities are reversed. To the Jacobs of the world, the material world is but a tool, a means to an end. To its Esaus, man’s material involvements and the struggles they entail are what life is all about. A futuristic vision of perfection is necessary, but only as a reference-point that provides coherence and direction to the “real” business of life.

The tension between them over their differing visions of the “two worlds” is not a negative thing. It is the result of two world views, both positive and necessary, both indispensable components of man’s mission in life.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline imaknick

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2013, 04:23:38 PM »
nice sources.
Does a prophecy contradict free will?

Offline muman613

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2013, 04:25:15 PM »
nice sources.
Does a prophecy contradict free will?


I believe that Free Will the the 'Prime Directive' of Hashems world. I do not believe any prophecy can trump free will...

But the fact is that there is Good and Evil in the world, and Hashem knows that some people will fail and become evil (for without evil there can be no good). The failure is the fault of the soul, not of any prophecy...

Evil nations raise their children with evil beliefs, and while it is possible that they can repent their sins, the odds of such happening is very small.

Hashem reveals this in the ten commandments:

Regarding the commandment of Idolatry:

5. You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a zealous God, Who visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me,
6. and {I} perform loving kindness to thousands [of generations], to those who love Me and to those who keep My commandments.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2013, 04:31:08 PM »
imaknick, here is an article which somewhat discusses your question:


http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/LOR6-5a.html

Maimonides on Life
Helping Those Who Help Themselves
Chapter 6, Law 5(a)

"What is [the meaning of] that which David said, 'Good and upright is G-d; therefore he instructs sinners along the path. He leads the humble in the just way, and He teaches the humble His way' (Psalms 25:8-9)? This is [the idea] that He sends to [such people] prophets, informing them of G-d's ways and bringing them to repentance. A further [implication of the verse is] that G-d gives them the ability to learn and understand. For this is a quality of people in general, that whenever a person follows the paths of wisdom and righteousness, he desires them [more] and pursues them. This is as the Sages said, 'One who wants to become pure, they help him' (Talmud Yoma 38b). Meaning, such a person will find himself assisted in the matter.

"Isn't it written in the Torah, '[And [G-d] said to Abraham, 'Know well that your descendants will be strangers in a land which is not theirs] and they will enslave them and afflict them [for 400 years]' (Genesis 15:13)? Thus, He decreed upon the Egyptians to do evil (which is a contradiction to the principle of free will)! It is also written, 'This nation [Israel] will rise up and stray after the foreign gods of the land' (Deuteronomy 31:16). Thus, He decreed on Israel to do idolatry! [If so,] why did He punish them?

"[The answer is,] G-d did not decree on any specific person that he would be the 'strayer.' Rather, every one of those strayers who did idolatry, had he not wanted to, could not have served. For G-d merely stated the way the world would work in general (lit., 'the custom of the world').

"To what can this be compared? To saying 'This nation will have within it righteous and wicked.' [Now] a wicked person could not say on account of this that it was already decreed upon him that he would be wicked since G-d told Moses there would be wicked people in Israel. This is similar to that which it states, '...for the poor will not cease from the midst of the land' (Deut. 15:11).

"So too the Egyptians. Each one of them who persecuted and harmed [the Children of] Israel, had he not wanted to harm them, he had the ability (lit., 'permission'). For G-d did not decree on any specific man. Rather, He made it known to [Abraham] that eventually his descendants would be enslaved in a land not their own. And we already explained (5:5) that human beings do not have the ability to understand how G-d [Himself] knows matters which will be in the future. (Thus, the fact that *G-d* knows which Egyptians will enslave Israel and which Jews will commit idolatry is not a contradiction to each individual's free will)."

This week's law in the Rambam is quite long, and deals with two basic issues, both relating to the overall principle of free will. The first is basically a continuation of the Rambam's earlier discussion. In the previous law, the Rambam explained the concept of praying to G-d for divine assistance or inspiration. King David does this quite often in Psalms. But can we really just ask G-d to purify our souls or grant us a good heart? Aren't such things up to us? Isn't it *our* job to improve our characters? And isn't the principle of free will -- which the Rambam has spent so much time discussing -- precisely that G-d does not control our behavior but leaves it up to us? If so, can we really ask G-d to magically perform our spiritual growth for us, through no effort of our own?

To this the Rambam explained that David was not simply asking that G-d purify his soul for him for free. He was asking for something much humbler -- which G-d may grant us if we pray for it: that our sins do not cloud our self-perception. As the Rambam discussed earlier, at times G-d removes free will from the truly wicked who no longer deserve this gift. That was not about to happen to the righteous David, but what may have occurred is that he would have lost his objectivity. When a person becomes sinful, he loses the ability to see himself for whom he really is. He becomes accustomed to his wicked ways and dulled to his faults. And it's very difficult at that point for a person to change his ways. He will hardly feel he *has* faults, let alone muster the stamina to address them.

And this is where prayer can be effective. G-d will not magically make us into better people if we pray. But He can help us correctly understand ourselves. He will grant us healthy self-perception. We will be able to see ourselves in the proper light, to recognize our faults and correct them.

And even more importantly, as we discussed last week, G-d will help us realize that our faults are not *us*. We are not so sinful there is no way we can improve. We are actually good people deep down -- who just have faults on the outside we must address. The biggest step towards self-improvement is simply recognizing our own greatness, that our inner souls are not sullied by our many mistakes. For once we truly recognize just whom we are, living up to that knowledge is natural and instinctive.

The first part of the Rambam today continues this overall theme. G-d "instructs the sinners" and "leads the humble" not by directly causing them to improve. That would fly in the face of the man's free will. Rather, He sends us messages, urging us to repent. In ancient times, this would often be via His prophets. But even today -- as we all know -- G-d oftentimes sends us subtler messages when our behavior needs improvement. Little things go wrong along the way. G-d gently interferes with our plans in the hope we'll get the message.

As my own simple example, there were times in the past when I would leave morning synagogue services more promptly in order to make it to work sooner. I began to notice that whenever I would do that, I would somehow get on the entirely wrong traffic-light cycle, and find myself waiting 5+ minutes at red lights -- something which never seemed to occur to me when I stayed in the synagogue longer. I got the message. And there is nothing unique about my case. Any one of us will notice -- if we only pay attention -- that the little things which go wrong in life are often G-d's veiled way of nudging us in the proper direction. We need only notice it and hear G-d's message.

Secondly, explains the Rambam, G-d will at times strengthen people who show a sincere desire to improve. Although again G-d does not control our behavior, He will aid us if we begin to make the effort ourselves. "One who wants to become pure, they help him." If we push ourselves in one direction, we may be too weak to effect true and lasting change ourselves, but G-d will be there to carry us through. Self-improvement is hard work, but G-d -- even more than we -- wants to see us succeed. He Himself will help us along the way.

We now turn to the second part of the Rambam. The Rambam raises another famous issue relating to free will: How does prophecy reconcile with free will? If a prophet comes along and says the Assyrians will attack tomorrow, doesn't that mean they have no choice but to attack? Doesn't that basically mean they must do what G-d has stated, whether they want to or not? And if so, how can G-d punish them for doing what they must?

As an important aside, the Rambam, in his final line, alludes to an earlier discussion he had on the matter. G-d Himself knows the future. He knows every act which will occur from here till the End of Days. If so, even without a prophecy the Assyrians have no choice but to attack us. G-d already knew it is going to happen. The enemy was simply following a pre-written script, which already dictated every act it would do.

The Rambam addressed this issue earlier. The gist of his answer was as follows. Just as G-d is infinite and above time, so too is His knowledge. Thus, when G-d knows the future, it is not truly the "future" He knows. He knows knowledge on a level above time -- in which "future" as we know it does not exist. In fact, time itself is merely a creation of the Almighty. Thus -- so far as man is concerned -- the "future" is not yet known. It is still open to us; we can act however we choose. The future is only known on a plane in which "future" is meaningless. To us time-bound humans, it is still indeterminate. Now, how actually this can be is beyond the grasp of the human mind. Since we are bound by time, we cannot fathom existence without time (or space for that matter -- yet another of G-d's creations). If so, this answer is almost by definition not understandable to us. Yet, we can rest assured that an answer does exist. G-d's knowledge of the future does not in any way impinge upon man's free will.

Now, however, the Rambam introduces a new factor. Let's say that knowledge of the future has been conveyed to man via prophecy. Now the future is not knowledge on some infinite spiritual plane. It has been brought down to this earth, to the physical world of time. Now *man* knows the Assyrians will attack tomorrow. And that would appear to contradict man's free will. Once man knows what the future will bring, presumably we have no choice but to obey it. The future has already been established. And if so, how can G-d punish man for actions He already told us we were going to do?

Okay we'll close at this point. As we'll see G-d willing in the next installment, the Rambam's answer is fairly straightforward. I will explain it briefly as well as offer another one of the other main approaches to this quandary suggested by other Jewish thinkers.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2013, 04:42:48 PM »
nice sources.
Does a prophecy contradict free will?

 Absolutely NOT. First off any bad Prophecy can be annulled. For example let's say G-D says through A Prophet that someone else will be destroyed, that person is told BUT then does Teshuva the bad Prophecy against him (or group or nation) can be annulled. It wouldn't be a sign that the Prophet is a false Prophet as well. On the other hand a good Prophecy ALWAYS has to come about.
 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: free will Question
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2013, 09:42:14 PM »
Great answers!
However, Where is the Free Will when Rivka gave birth to Yaakov and Esav? Hashem told Rebecca that she will have two sons and the elder will be a serve to the younger.  Does that mean hashem made Esav evil and thus made Esav serve Yaakov?

No. Free will is very limited, but one of the main aspects in it is the choice to sin or not. Esav may have had a difficult test, but ultimately he chose to sin. We know this is true since Hashem tells us not to sin, and therefore that choice is in our hands. To go deeper, you don't have any control over your actions, it's the thought that you control, and how you act will be a reflection of what happens in your mind. In your mind, you can see reality, and if you understand it completely, then you will know it's the right choice, and everything else in your mind is an illusion: you could think you're doing the right thing, but it's really fake. Therefore, the only choice is between illusion and reality, and like many of the goyim who spend most of their lives living in illusion, someone who lives in reality will accomplish more than someone who works to advance the cause of his illusions, and should therefore rightly lead the others.

The Kabalists say you also have a free choice in your environment, because you can leave a bad place or a good one, but how it connects with the choices you make in your mind, and what your position in life will be is beyond my level.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge