Banning Weed and Drugs

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Would like a Halahic discussion (and not an emotional one) about why marijuana and or (even) hard drugs should or should not be banned in society. Again I reiterate this should be a Torah discussion- legally and not emotionally.
  For example imagine in a world where their are 2 countries (even part of a whole picture of other countries). 1 country a gentile country run by the 7 Misswoth Bnai Noah and that is how the courts were and are being run, the other country- Israel, a Religious country run by Torah law under Beit Din perhaps with a Melech (King) or Nasi (President) as well.
  At the time their are these discoveries of Cannibus and hard drugs as well. What do we do with it, can we allow it, can we ban it, what Klalot and power (or jurisdiction if yes or no) do we have in either allowing or banning it?

1) According to the laws of Bnai Noah
       a) Marijuana
       b) Hard drugs

 2) According to Torah law for Jews in Israel
       a) Marijuana
       b) Hard drugs


 Please discuss.

[muman613]

As I stated in an earlier discussion the only reason drugs can be considered prohibited is if they cause actual damage to the human body or mind. The Torah clearly prohibits us from doing anything which shortens our lives or dulls our senses so that we cannot function properly during davening.

Specifically the commandments concerning 'Choosing Good over Evil', 'Not making permanent markings on our bodies /Tattoos', and the story of the death of Aaron's sons (said to be due to their consuming alcohol before their service).

 Hard drugs (including cocaine and heroin) are obviously detrimental to healthy functioning of the human body. I believe there is no way to consider their use supported by the Torah.

Regarding MJ I am still not sure that it causes damage, and I know it does have medicinal properties which provide comfort to a variety of ailments.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman please try to address by number and letters. Also the question is not on the individual per say but by a government and what power (if any) would they have in making such a decision. It could perfectly be that the fact that it hurts the individual gives jurisdiction by a Beit Din (or other) to ban something and perhaps their were/are precedence's, but I'm also looking for substantial either proof or text showing legal precedence and that is how I tried to phrase the question. Put yourself as a Judge (for example) where these things were just discovered and you are trying to figure out about what to do with them.

[Jenny]

Would like a Halahic discussion (and not an emotional one) about why marijuana and or (even) hard drugs should or should not be banned in society. Again I reiterate this should be a Torah discussion- legally and not emotionally.
  For example imagine in a world where their are 2 countries (even part of a whole picture of other countries). 1 country a gentile country run by the 7 Misswoth Bnai Noah and that is how the courts were and are being run, the other country- Israel, a Religious country run by Torah law under Beit Din perhaps with a Melech (King) or Nasi (President) as well.
  At the time their are these discoveries of Cannibus and hard drugs as well. What do we do with it, can we allow it, can we ban it, what Klalot and power (or jurisdiction if yes or no) do we have in either allowing or banning it?

1) According to the laws of Bnai Noah
       a) Marijuana
       b) Hard drugs

 2) According to Torah law for Jews in Israel
       a) Marijuana
       b) Hard drugs


 Please discuss.

I have more of a question for you if you wouldn't mind giving me your thoughts.
Is it ok for someone to follow the Torah and smoke marijuana(for any reason), Is he/she being a good faithful Jew?

[muman613]

I have more of a question for you if you wouldn't mind giving me your thoughts.
Is it ok for someone to follow the Torah and smoke marijuana(for any reason), Is he/she being a good faithful Jew?

In my opinion it is possible. As I said it is my experience that MJ is beneficial, not detrimental, to life. The scientific community has not clearly decided if it is mostly beneficial (which I believe) or hurtful...

But clearly one should not smoke or use any substance which clouds the mind during prayer. The Torah expressly forbids praying while drunk or impaired.

[muman613]

Tag, of what interest does the government have what a person does with his or her body?

Jewish law prohibits things which are harmful to the body. The command that we must not abuse our bodies is repeated in several laws.

Ultimately I think that question is the deciding factor in whether the Jewish government should 'legalize' it or should 'regulate' it...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Tag, of what interest does the government have what a person does with his or her body?

 That is the question. Can they bann such things or not? and what KLAL would it fall under be it a Ben-Noah government of a Torah Israel government.

 Also about interest- perhaps a government would like a productive population that isn't on drugs and working instead. OR the drugs could cause crimes (such as murder for example), OR it would be moral to prvent someone from committing an avera and if its an avera how much power (to what extent) does the government have in order to do soo.

[muman613]

That is the question. Can they bann such things or not? and what KLAL would it fall under be it a Ben-Noah government of a Torah Israel government.

 Also about interest- perhaps a government would like a productive population that isn't on drugs and working instead. OR the drugs could cause crimes (such as murder for example), OR it would be moral to prvent someone from committing an avera and if its an avera how much power (to what extent) does the government have in order to do soo.

Can't 'drugs' be dealt with similar to 'alcohol'?

[~Hanna~]

Here is some useful information about MJ.  It's been used as medicine by the Chinese and the Egyptians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_cannabis

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Well I guess this discussion didn't get much to where I wanted it to go. Still very good and serious question(s).

[Sveta]

I am not sure what to write for the Bnai Noach government because of the 7 Laws of Noah, I am not sure which one would prohibit or allow marijuana use. The only one I can think of is that they are supposed to set up courts of government. In these courts, if the Noahide government decides to prohibit the use of marijuana or drugs, then they all have to follow i

 2) According to Torah law for Jews in Israel
       a) Marijuana- permitted for medicinal purposes. And permitted for recreational use like alcohol and tobacco is. In fact, most cases of people getting lung
        cancer from marijuana is due to people rolling joints that are mixes of tobacco and MJ. But smoking it out of a vaporizer is the healthiest way to smoke it. 

       b) Hard drugs- completely forbidden on two basis. One, hard drugs harm the body. Looking at meth users throughout the years, it is obvious. The   
       user can harm not just his body but may be instantly killed if under the influence of hard drugs crashes or jumps out of a building or drowns.
       And two: the user of hard drugs can harm others. Either by being a parent on meth or cocaine that starts beating their kids. A pregnant mother who harms
       her fetus by using drugs, a user on ecstasy who gets behind a wheel and crashes and kills a family in another car.



The mitzvot that in my opinion would somehow concern allowing/forbidding marijuana or drugs are the following. (This is just me)

1) To imitate His good and upright ways. Could we imagine Hashem doing drugs? No.
2) To learn Torah and to teach it . If people become too interested in marijuana or drugs over studying the Torah, then it must be forbidden for that person
3) To love all human beings who are of the covenant. By using hard drugs, we would put other people's life in danger, not just our own.
4) Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger. A meth user is basically killing him or herself, we would not be able to stand idly by.
5) Not to cherish hatred in one's heart. As a society, we may start to hate the drug users.
6) To honor father and mother. Let's say the parents do not want us to do marijuana
7) Not to smite or curse a father or mother. A drug user who is high gets upset at his or her parents, then in anger strikes or curses them.
8) Not to make use of an idol or its accessory objects, offerings, or libations . Like smoking peyote on the peace pipe in a native ceremony

Etc..etc.  These may not be perfect examples but it is a suggestion of the things a court might think about when ruling for and against prohibiting marijuana and drugs.
There are those who say that marijuana is akin to idolatry. I have a friend who has tried to convince me that it is evil based on the fact that marijuana users become addicted and they replace Hashem with their new addiction.

Personally, I have never done hard drugs ever and I am against them because they damage the body and are a risk to society. But marijuana is not that bad.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Dina D'Malchuta Dina. If it is forbidden under civil law, it is forbidden for Jews, since using drugs is not a Torah requirement. As long as civil law doesn't contradict Jewish Law, we have to obey it. I guess the same goes for goyim and setting up courts like Israeli Heart said.

[muman613]

I agree with most of what IsraelHeart says.. She brings the issues which I originally stated, whether it is considered damaging to the body, and whether it's use interferes with the ability to study Torah and perform commandments.

As we go forward I think it is not an issue of honoring parents any more. When I was growing up my mother was very much against my smoking weed, and it was one of the reasons she sent me to live with my father. But I always held good jobs, made good money, did not lose sight of my responsibilities and over time my mother has come to understand why I used at that time.

In future generations it will not be an issue. I support medicinal usage of marijuana and prohibition of the 'hard drugs' like cocaine and heroin, and many of the addictive pain medicines (which I had to take due to a painful condition which I deal with [and I have not even taken them despite being able to get my perscription refilled])

Binyamin, most states are legalizing for medicinal use (here in California I can get it if I want it). Many states have begun to legalize for recreational usage also (as I said I still oppose this move)...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Dina D'Malchuta Dina. If it is forbidden under civil law, it is forbidden for Jews, since using drugs is not a Torah requirement. As long as civil law doesn't contradict Jewish Law, we have to obey it. I guess the same goes for goyim and setting up courts like Israeli Heart said.

 I said earlier a different situation (to begin with and it just being introduced, how to deal with it on the gov. side).
 
 Your second statement doesn't make sense.
 " since using drugs is not a Torah requirement"

 Many things aren't a Torah requirement. For example if you ate meat tonight or will do soo tomorrow their is no Torah requirement to do soo, soo by your logic why or how would it be allowed? Or to drive a car, or go shopping.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

I mean if the government bans something that is not something needed for a mitzvah. For example, during Prohibition, the government banned wine. Wine is needed for mitzvot. So we were not required to follow that ban. If the government banned brit milah, we are not required to follow the ban. If the government banned soda, we would have to follow the ban because soda banning is not against Halacha.

The First Ammendment would allow us to continue to do something which is banned if not for a religious reason. But in Bolshevik countries such as Soviet Russia, brit milah was banned. Jews had to continue to practice it since the Secular law went against Halacha.

I also wrote what I wrote before I saw that you said what you are proposing would be in a theoretical Bnei Noah Government or Torah Government.

[Israel Chai]

I mean if the government bans something that is not something needed for a mitzvah. For example, during Prohibition, the government banned wine. Wine is needed for mitzvot. So we were not required to follow that ban. If the government banned brit milah, we are not required to follow the ban. If the government banned soda, we would have to follow the ban because soda banning is not against Halacha.

The First Ammendment would allow us to continue to do something which is banned if not for a religious reason. But in Bolshevik countries such as Soviet Russia, brit milah was banned. Jews had to continue to practice it since the Secular law went against Halacha.

I also wrote what I wrote before I saw that you said what you are proposing would be in a theoretical Bnei Noah Government or Torah Government.

It's deeper than that, because never yawning isn't against halacha, but a ban on it should also not be followed. Same with shoelaces. Anything that goes along with common sense, morality and the vast majority of people support, should not be banned.