Murex snail cloth found south of Qumran.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/12/31/archaeologists-make-incredibly-rare-find-with-roots-in-the-bible/

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Awesome. I used to like seashells as a child.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

SHOULD further take away any doubts about Techelet and about us having to wear it, but let's see how long it will take to further catch on and get accepted.

[muman613]

I am a bit suspicious of news like this on the Blaze site. As much as I love Glen Beck he attracts a brand of Christian who is not always 'Zionist' with the best intentions (meaning they want the Jews to convert in order to be able to claim our heritage).

Let us see what the Rabbis think concerning this find. They did not find tzit-tzits but rather they found some blue cloth in Qumran (where the Dead Sea scrolls were found).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I am a bit suspicious of news like this on the Blaze site. As much as I love Glen Beck he attracts a brand of Christian who is not always 'Zionist' with the best intentions (meaning they want the Jews to convert in order to be able to claim our heritage).

Let us see what the Rabbis think concerning this find. They did not find tzit-tzits but rather they found some blue cloth in Qumran (where the Dead Sea scrolls were found).

 (Rambam) follow the truth no matter who says it (I'm paraphrasing).

Anyway make a search and find different places as well

http://www.greenprophet.com/2013/12/hidden-secrets-of-techelet-holy-blue-dye-discovered-in-israel/

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I am a bit suspicious of news like this on the Blaze site. As much as I love Glen Beck he attracts a brand of Christian who is not always 'Zionist' with the best intentions (meaning they want the Jews to convert in order to be able to claim our heritage).

Let us see what the Rabbis think concerning this find. They did not find tzit-tzits but rather they found some blue cloth in Qumran (where the Dead Sea scrolls were found).

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/researchers-find-ancient-fabrics-in-colors-noted-in-jewish-sources/2013/12/31/

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

American Cochineal insect??

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am a bit suspicious of news like this on the Blaze site. As much as I love Glen Beck he attracts a brand of Christian who is not always 'Zionist' with the best intentions (meaning they want the Jews to convert in order to be able to claim our heritage).

Let us see what the Rabbis think concerning this find. They did not find tzit-tzits but rather they found some blue cloth in Qumran (where the Dead Sea scrolls were found).

This find is also cited in Walla (the Israeli news site) and other sites.   Theblaze also quotes in their story Yoli Schwartz of the Israel Antiquities Agency, who is, for all intents and purposes, a real person.

"The purple shade was considered to have been the most valued of the pigments used during the period, the Hebrew website Walla reported.

“Fabrics dyed purple testified to the prestige of the garment and to the social status of its owner. In some periods, purple clothing was permitted to the emperor and his family only,” Walla reported, adding that the price of the dye at times reached the price of gold.

Israel Antiquities Authority researchers say they still don’t know how the pricey fabrics got into the caves. One theory is they may have belonged to Jewish refugees on the run during the Bar Kochba Revolt which began in 132-136 A.D., during which the Jews rebelled against Roman Empire rule of the Holy Land. Alternatively, the clothing may have belonged to a Roman military unit living in the caves."

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The key point in their article (for religious Jews, anyway) was this:

"The Tazpit News Agency further explained: “A third textile, made of wool, indicating the thread fibers were dyed by exposing them to sunlight or heated after having been dyed, represent another use of the murex snail for achieving a shade of blue, and it is possible that the item in question is an indigo fabric made by means of a technique similar to making the tekhelet (blue) in tzitzit, the four-fringed garment worn by Jews.” "

[muman613]

I read the article and hope that it provides an answer as to whether we have Techilis.

At this time though I am not convinced and ready to go out an buy tzit-tzits with this dye.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

American Cochineal insect??

Anyone else notice this? I heard a story that the Jews knew about America as far back as Temple times. ..

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I read the article and hope that it provides an answer as to whether we have Techilis.

At this time though I am not convinced and ready to go out an buy tzit-tzits with this dye.

    , I thought soo and said soo earlier (not you personally but some in general). anyway don't Breslovers already put it on?

[edu]

 See the Video Clip From the recent Tekhelet conference about this subject:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/RqS_cTXTbKI?rel=0

[muman613]

    , I thought soo and said soo earlier (not you personally but some in general). anyway don't Breslovers already put it on?

I don't know about Breslovers, but I know Chabad doesn't and in the thread from last year we discussed the reasons why many have not accepted the idea that this is the actual blue dye for the tzit-tzit.

I am not sure what this finding in Qumran brings considering the item the murex dye was found on was not tzit-tzits.

[muman613]

I just googled and discovered the murex snail is on the list of endangered species...

http://www.ptinews.com/news/4269982_Four-held-for-smuggling-murex.html

Rameswaram (TN), Dec 27 (PTI) Four persons allegedly trafficking murex (sea snails), protected under the Wild Life Act, were arrested by a coast guard team off Mandapam near here today.

A Coast Guard team on patrol intercepted the country boat in which the four, hailing from nearby Vethaalai, were travelling and found the murex kept hidden, local CG unit Commandant H Harish More said.

All the occupants of the boat were arrested and being interrogated, he said.

[muman613]

I just called my Chabad Rabbi and hope to be able to talk with him on this topic soon... He should call me back in an hour...

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I just called my Chabad Rabbi and hope to be able to talk with him on this topic soon... He should call me back in an hour...

Muman, I'm confused... I thought it was a good thing to find the dye... Could someone fill me in?

[muman613]

Muman, I'm confused... I thought it was a good thing to find the dye... Could someone fill me in?

The article doesn't say anything about 'finding the dye'... We have known about the Murex snail for many years. This find is of a piece of cloth which uses the Murex Snail for a purple color. The Rabbis over the years have had questions as to whether the Murex snail is the Halizon (what the Talmud calls the snail) which is supposed to yield 'BLUE' dye (not purple).

There is still some question as to whether the snail which is called Murex is the Halizon...

Here is a site which argues for the Murex as the Chalizon:

http://tekhelet.com/tekhelet/introduction-to-tekhelet/

Here is a reply to a question on the topic from Rabbi Posner from Chabad:

Techelet is wool dyed with blood extracted from a sea animal called the chilazon.

So why is it not so common today to have a techelet fringe on the tallit or tzitzit? At a certain point in history, approximately 1000 years ago, the chilazon, which was always hard to come by—to the extent that the Talmud2 tells us that it surfaced only once every seventy years—became unavailable altogether. After a while, its exact identity became unknown.

There have been many who have tried to rediscover the identity of the chilazon. Most notable among them were the Radziner rebbe, Rabbi Gershon Henoch Leiner (1839–1891), and Israeli Chief Rabbi Y. I. Herzog (1888–1959).

Rabbi Leiner maintained that the cuttlefish was the lost chilazon, and proceeded to produce and distribute dye produced from this fish.

Recently, the marine snail Murex trunculus has been identified as possibly being the elusive chilazon, and many use its dye.

Most communities, however, view the findings of these groups as uncertain, and therefore continue to wear only white fringes, awaiting the coming of Moshiach, when Elijah himself will guide us in uncovering the identity of the chilazon.

Yours truly,
Rabbi Menachem Posner

[muman613]

The reason I am asking my Rabbi about it is maybe this find may supply enough evidence that we may start to use it. I do not wear white tzit-tzits just because I don't want to wear the blue string... It is because I believe that in order to do the commandment correctly we must be sure that the blue dye is the one which the sages were discussing in the Talmud.

[muman613]

http://tekhelet.com/tekhelet/introduction-to-tekhelet/

Tekhelet

The vein is removed… and to this salt has to be added… three days is the proper time for it to be steeped, and it should be heated in a leaden pot with 50 lbs. of dye to every six gallons of water. (Pliny the Elder, Natural History 9.61.133, first century BCE)

Rav Herzog knew of the work done by Lacaze-Duthiers and others, and realized that all the evidence pointed to Murex trunculus as the most likely candidate for the tekheletsource. Two problems, however, prevented Rav Herzog from positively identifying that snail with the Chilazon. First, the dye obtained from the trunculus was purplish-blue, not pure blue as tradition maintained. Second, this snail has an off-white shell with stripes of brown, hardly fitting the Talmudic description of the Chilazon as appearing similar to the sea.

Current research has supplied the solutions to these objections. The shell appears off-white with brown stripes when it is out of the water, cleaned and polished. In its natural element, however, trunculus is covered with a coat of sea fouling the color of the ocean. Everything in its vicinity is covered with the same fouling, making it almost impossible to distinguish the snail from the sea bed on which it is found. The Talmud’s description is of the Chilazon in its natural habitat!

The riddle of producing a pure blue color from the snail was serendipitously solved. While researching the methods used by the ancient dyers, Prof. Otto Elsner, of the Shenkar College of Fibers, noticed that on cloudy days, trunculusdye tended towards purple, but on sunny days it was a brilliant blue! He found that at a certain stage of the dyeing process, exposure to sunlight will alter the dye, changing its color from purple to blue. To the dye masters of old, working in the bright Mediterranean sunlight, this was certainly no secret.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

"when Elijah himself will guide us in uncovering the identity of the chilazon."

 A Prophet does not decide the Halacha (just saying in general) the Hachamim do.

[muman613]

"when Elijah himself will guide us in uncovering the identity of the chilazon."

 A Prophet does not decide the Halacha (just saying in general) the Hachamim do.

The point the rabbi was making concerns the idea that all the truth of Torah will most certainly be known when Moshiach comes.

Hopefully we can decide on what Chalizon is before that.

I know some who do wear the thread of techilit... He had a Rabbi which approved of the Murex snails use... I will wait to hear what my Rabbi says about it, and the other Rabbis I know.

[muman613]

www.parsha.net/Bamidbar/Behaaloscha72.doc

One of the vestments worn by the kohanim is the avneit, the belt. Although the Torah never describes the avneit worn by the regular kohen, the halachic conclusion is that his avneit includes threads made of techeiles, argaman, and tola’as shani (Yoma 6a). There is uncertainty about the identification of each of these items. For example, the Rambam and the Ravad dispute the identity of argaman (Hilchos Klei HaMikdash, 8:13). The identity of techeiles is also unknown. Most poskim conclude that Hashem hid the source of techeiles, a fish known as chilazon, and that it will be revealed only at the time of Moshiach. Thus, even if we rule that our kohanim are kosher for performing the service, they cannot serve without valid garments! (It should be noted that several great poskim, including the Radziner Rebbe, the Maharsham, Rav Herzog and Rav Yechiel Michel Tukochinski contended that we could research the correct identity of the techeiles. I have written other articles on the subject of identifying all of these sources of dyes.)

Rav Kalisher himself contended that the garments of the kohen do not require chilazon as the dye source, only the color of techeiles. In his opinion, chilazon dye is necessary only for tzitzis. (He based this approach on the wording of the Rambam in Hilchos Tzitzis 2:1-2.) Therefore, in Rabbi Kalisher’s opinion, one may dye the threads of the avneit the correct color and perform the service. However, other poskim did not accept this interpretation, but required the specific dye source of chilazon blood to dye the vestments (Likutei Halachos, Zevachim Chapter 13 pg. 67a).

[edu]

You should be aware that some Rabbis hold that it is better not to wear Tzitzit at all, than to wear Tzitzit without Techelet (derived from the Murex Trunculus sea mollusc). Other rabbis obviously disagree.
I don't wish to take sides on the issue.
I am just bringing this up to make the point, that you should not go around feeling that you are on the safe side by using white only Tzitzit.
You have to either research this issue yourself or ask a Rabbi who you trust who has researched this issue well and rely on him.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The article doesn't say anything about 'finding the dye'... We have known about the Murex snail for many years. This find is of a piece of cloth which uses the Murex Snail for a purple color. The Rabbis over the years have had questions as to whether the Murex snail is the Halizon (what the Talmud calls the snail) which is supposed to yield 'BLUE' dye (not purple).

The article also clearly shows a blue garment that looks like the color of techeles.   Am I misunderstanding something from the article?  Or aren't they also saying that blue garment is from murex trunculus?