Evolution VS. Creation

[imaknick]

Anybody watching the debate between Bill NyE Science Guy and Ken Ham? Evolution vs creation

[Yerusha]

Can you give us a link?

[imaknick]

http://debatelive.org/

Its at the end of debate, but I think they might have it replayed.
It is also on CNN.COM

[imaknick]

I just read that they will have it free on Youtube for a period of time.

[imaknick]

You can actually watch it now and just rewind it to the beginning.
http://debatelive.org/

[angryChineseKahanist]

we were designed to evolve and adapt. that's the way I see it.

where does it say we're not allowed to evolve?

[muman613]

we were designed to evolve and adapt. that's the way I see it.

where does it say we're not allowed to evolve?

Depends on what you have in mind to 'evolve' into...

Who decides if we will walk on 2 legs, or 4 legs, or 100 legs? Who decides how many fingers or toes you have? This ultimately leads to the 'intelligent designer' theory. But as a Jew I fully reject it.

According to Jewish belief, maybe a bit on the strict interpretation, humans are the central purpose of creation. Everything else in creation is just here for our pleasure and utilization. If not for the human being, the entire creation would not have even been considered.

Humans are not just 'evolved' animals. We are the image of Hashem (in our spiritual dimension, of course not in our physical dimension because our G-d has no corporeal form). We are distinct from animals who according to our belief posses an aspect of the greater soul (the animal soul) and they lack the ability to make free will decisions. Of course as an animal 'lover' I ascribe the concept of 'will' to my pet cat, as she seems to desire things and communicate it with me. But the cat, and all animals, are not making free will decisions in reality, they are acting on their natural predilections according to their learned behaviors.

So humans have 'evolved' in our ability to create and to learn. Our mathematical abilities, our cognitive abilities, our ability to read and write prose and to relate our emotions through communication have evolved.

But humans have been humans for a long time and I don't think we will grow wings, or develop gills, or grow a third eye... Our form has achieved the desired state as stated by the creator of the entire Olam (world/worlds)...

That's my educated opinion...
 

[muman613]

Some tidbits of knowledge for your consumption:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/human.htm

In the Image of God

The Bible states that humanity was created in the image of God, but what does it mean to be created in the image of God?

Clearly, we are not created in the physical image of God, because Judaism steadfastly maintains that God is incorporeal and has no physical appearance.  Maimonides points out that the Hebrew words translated as "image" and "likeness" in Genesis 1,27 do not refer to the physical form of a thing.  The word for "image" in Genesis 1,27 is "tzelem", which refers to the nature or essence of a thing, as in Psalms 73,20, "you will despise their image (tzel'mam)".  You despise a person's nature and not a person's physical appearance.  The word for physical form, Maimonides explains, is "to'ar", as in Genesis 39,6, "and Joseph was beautiful of form (to'ar) and fair to look upon".  Similarly, the word used for "likeness" is "demut", which is used to indicate a simile, not identity of form.  For example, "He is like (dimyono) a lion" in Psalms 17,12 refers not to similar appearance, but to similar nature.

What is it in our nature that is God-like?  Rashi explains that we are like God in that we have the ability to understand and discern.  Maimonides elaborates that by using our intellect, we are able to perceive things without the use of our physical senses, an ability that makes us like God, who perceives without having physical senses.


http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/kahn/archives/vayikra66.htm

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Elevating the world

The Midrash Rabbah (Koheles 7:13) teaches that all of G'd's creation was created for the benefit of man. The Kabbalists point out that this does not only refer to the lower beings but even includes spiritual beings such as angels who are dependent on humans and were created to assist them in this world (see Nefesh Hachaim 1:10). Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto (Path of the Just Chapter 1) explains that when a person utilizes the world around him to achieve his purpose and serve G'd, he elevates the whole world around him to a higher level.

Beyond comprehension

The world is made up of minerals, plants, animals and human beings. G'd not only created everything but constantly keeps every part of the world "alive". As it says (Nehemiah 9:6): "You are G'd … You made the Heavens and all their legions, the earth and everything upon it, the seas and everything in them and You keep them all alive." Even minerals consist of atoms and molecules that are constantly moving. The plants have the ability to grow and in many instances produce fruits. Animals have a more advanced existence, and function in many ways similar to humans. However, minerals, plants and animals were all created to serve humans and to assist us in achieving our purpose in life (see Talmud Kidushin 82a). It is beyond our comprehension to understand the purpose of each part of creation. We can only join King David as he expresses in amazement (Tehillim 104:24) "How abundant are Your works HASHEM, You made them all with wisdom. The earth is full of Your possessions."
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[angryChineseKahanist]

OK. So none of that says we are not allowed to evolve.

What if we were designed to evolve?

What if this is our final form?

[angryChineseKahanist]

Question 2.
Isn't the book of genesis the same as the "big bang"?
First there was darkness. Then everything came into being.

[angryChineseKahanist]

Question 3.

Where do they get this idea that the world is only 6000 years old?

[muman613]

Question 2.
Isn't the book of genesis the same as the "big bang"?
First there was darkness. Then everything came into being.

This is the belief of some Jewish scientists, that in some way the 'Big Bang' was the initial creation of something from nothing (which is what Beresheit (Genesis) explains)....

This has been discussed in the Torah section a few years ago.

[muman613]

Question 3.

Where do they get this idea that the world is only 6000 years old?

That is not what is believed... It is believed it has been 5774 years from the creation of Adam and Eve on the Sixth day of creation.

In the scientific explanation of the Genesis story, the fact that the time period called 'day' is not defined until the sun and moon and planets are created leads some to say that the day may have been a longer period of time.

[Dr. Dan]

Well put muman.

[angryChineseKahanist]

Thanks M.
I do appreciate your efforts.

[Rubystars]

Question 3.

Where do they get this idea that the world is only 6000 years old?

Because they can't understand their science classes.

[Yerusha]

"There is no professor of Hebrew or Bible at any world-class university who does not believe that writer of Genesis intended to convey to readers the idea that the creation took place in six days of 24 hours" (Professor James Barr, Oxford)


“There is no reason whatever to believe that science can state anything definitive on something which occurred in the remote past, in the pre-dawn of history. Those well meaning persons who felt impelled to interpret certain passages in the Torah differently from the time-honoured tradition, did so only in the mistaken belief that the Torah view on the age of the world was at variance with science; otherwise they would not have sought new interpretations in the Torah. There is no need to seek new reinterpretations in the Torah to 'reconcile' them with science” (Lubavitcher Rebbe)

There is a lot of solid scientific evidence indicating a recent Creation
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/young-age-evidence

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

we were designed to evolve and adapt. that's the way I see it.

where does it say we're not allowed to evolve?

I agree with you.

There was creation and there was also evolution.   What a nice world we live in, there can be complex realities.

[imaknick]

I don' t think Ken ham explained creation well.  The bible doesn't explain how the earth was created, but just that it was created.  Likewise the sun was not explained how it was created, but that it was created.  Science hypothesizes and experiments and is considered fact when proven, but then change when proven otherwise.  Can the flood be explained as the melting of the ice during the ice age?  Can the dinosaurs have died when meteor struck the earth, the  high temperatures melted the ice increasing water levels and hence, the flood?

[muman613]

I don' t think Ken ham explained creation well.  The bible doesn't explain how the earth was created, but just that it was created.  Likewise the sun was not explained how it was created, but that it was created.  Science hypothesizes and experiments and is considered fact when proven, but then change when proven otherwise.  Can the flood be explained as the melting of the ice during the ice age?  Can the dinosaurs have died when meteor struck the earth, the  high temperatures melted the ice increasing water levels and hence, the flood?

Jewish belief is that Hashem created the world using 'Ten Utterances'. It is with these Ten Utterances that everything came into being.

This discussion of the Ten Utterances is from a page explaining how PI can be found in the Torah...

http://www.inner.org/torah_and_science/mathematics/story-of-pi-2.php
32 Pathways of Wisdom and 10 Utterances of Creation

So far we have interpreted the ratio of 22 to 7 as corresponding to the 7 days of creation. In reality, this interpretation is a little simplistic because the 32 pathways of wisdom are alluded to in the 32 instances of God’s Name, Elokim, that appear in the account of the first 6 days of creation. Moreover, the diameter of 10 refers to ten specific instances of the Name Elokim in which the Torah describes that God (using the Name Elokim) speaks creation into existence. These are known as the Ten Utterances (עַשָׂרָה מַאֲמָרוֹת ) by which the world was created. Thus, an even more profound interpretation of the 32:10, circumference to diameter, ratio described in the Gaon of Vilna’s commentary is the relation of the 32 pathways of wisdom to the 10 utterances with which God created the world.

The sages state, “The world was created with ten utterances.”7 Elsewhere, they explain that the Ten Utterances refer to the ten times that the Torah writes “God said” (וַיֹאמֶר אֶ־לֹהִים ). Thus, the first 3 utterances correspond to the diameter of the smaller top circle (diameter 3) and the final 7 utterances correspond to the diameter of the larger circle on the bottom.

Still, the number of times this phrase appears in the first account of creation is only 9. The sages offer a number of different ways to enumerate 10 utterances. In the Talmud,8 the sages explain that the first verse of the Torah, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” is also an utterance, even though it is not stated in the form of “God said let there be heavens and an earth.”9 According to the Talmud the Ten Utterances are then:

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (verse 1).
“God said, “Let there be light” (v. 3).
“God said, ‘Let there be a firmament…” (v. 6).
“God said, ‘Let the waters gather…’” (v. 9).
“God said, ‘Let the earth sprout vegetation…” (v. 11).
“God said, ‘Let there be luminaries in the heavenly sky…’” (v. 14).
“God said, ‘Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures…’” (v. 20).
“God said, ‘Let the earth bring forth living creatures…’” (v. 24).
“God said, ‘Let us make a human…’” (v. 26).
“God said, ‘Behold, I have given you every seed bearing plant…’” (v. 29).

About the 10th utterance there is some dispute. There are opinions that this is not an utterance as there is no explicit act of creation occurring. If this is not the tenth then the tenth utterance is to be found in the second account of creation, “God said, ‘It is not good for man to be alone….’”10 Though at first glance, it may seem that it is something of a problem that this utterance does not appear in the account of the first six days of creation (where the 32 Elokim are found). But, upon further contemplation it becomes clear that this verse, though appearing in the second account of creation, is implicitly part of the creation in the sixth day, since it deals with the creation of Eve from Adam, the female of the human species from the male. The simplest way of understanding the relationship between the second account of creation and the first account is that the second account elaborates on particular parts of the first, without providing an explicit time-reference.

In the Zohar, we find a different enumeration from the Talmud.11 The Zohar does not regard the first verse as an utterance and instead starts with “God said, ‘Let there be light” and ends with, “God said, ‘It is not good for man to be alone….’”

In all, we have seen 3 different enumerations of the Ten Utterances. Let us call them Talmud1, Talmud2, and Zohar. Now let us consider the differences between them.

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[imaknick]

Many scientists don't understand the Torah and many religious people don't understand science.  Science hypothesizes on observations and then the hypothesis is experimented on.  The Hypothesis becomes theories when the evidence supports the hypothesis.  Nothing is ever proven FINAL!  Science should not reject the torah.  The torah is not a science book, nor a history book, nor a philosophy book, the torah is a book of laws. 

[muman613]

Many scientists don't understand the Torah and many religious people don't understand science.  Science hypothesizes on observations and then the hypothesis is experimented on.  The Hypothesis becomes theories when the evidence supports the hypothesis.  Nothing is ever proven FINAL!  Science should not reject the torah.  The torah is not a science book, nor a history book, nor a philosophy book, the torah is a book of laws.

Indeed the Torah is not a History or Science book... It is the word of G-d to his people.

And science is just a tool used to understand our environment, it is always confined by the limitations of the human beings finite existence.

[imaknick]

Indeed the Torah is not a History or Science book... It is the word of G-d to his people.

And science is just a tool used to understand our environment, it is always confined by the limitations of the human beings finite existence.

 

Indeed. So how can some people say that science contradicts the torah? 
It is impossible.
The torah does not say anything scientific. It just explains what is Good and Evil.

TORAH                                          Science
 Great flood in NOAH------> can this be the melting of glaciers during the ice age.
creation of sun and moon--------------> the sun is a stars. stars are created and destroyed.  Can the sun  we have now be different then the sun we have during creation?  who knows???
parting of red seas---------------------->  can this be crossing red seas at low Tide?

[muman613]

Indeed. So how can some people say that science contradicts the torah? 
It is impossible.
The torah does not say anything scientific. It just explains what is Good and Evil.

TORAH                                          Science
 Great flood in NOAH------> can this be the melting of glaciers during the ice age.
creation of sun and moon--------------> the sun is a stars. stars are created and destroyed.  Can the sun  we have now be different then the sun we have during creation?  who knows???
parting of red seas---------------------->  can this be crossing red seas at low Tide?

Regarding the Red sea... No it cannot be crossing sea at low tide... If this was the case then the Egyptians would have been able to cross.

The splitting of the sea was an obvious miracle, it cannot be explained by physics. According to Jewish belief all water in the world split at the same time...
http://www.torahtots.com/parsha/shmos/bshalac3.htm

On this seventh day of Pesach, all the waters of the world split; Rivers, cisterns, pits, and even water in pitchers, barrels and bottles. The exception was the Jordan River, which reversed its course, leaving its bed dry. The walls of water at the Red Sea were so high that they were seen from a great distance, terrifying all the surrounding nations. The sound of the splitting sea could be heard all over the world.

Now, the Mitzriyim didn't exactly have the same first-class sea-crossing experience: Remember that perfectly dry path? Well, it did indeed make a murky, muddy finish for the Mitzriyim the moment those chariots touched the sea bed! The mud became boiling hot from the pillars of fire making the horses lose their hooves. Hashem caused one wheel to be removed from each chariot. When the panicked horses pulled these disabled war chariots, the heavy vehicles swung back and forth, breaking bodies as they went. Many Mitzriyim fell from their chariots, and were not able to get up again. Although it was virtually impossible for the chariots to move with a single wheel, the chariots were able to ride toward the closing waters. Even though the sea bed was like mud, when the Mitzriyim fell on it, it was like stone, breaking their bones. Stones, hail and fiery coals rained down on the Mitzriyim from the sky, confusing the Mitzriyim. Even their arrows and missiles misfired and boomeranged back at them!

I doubt the Flood had anything to do with melting glaciers. I doubt Noach knew anything about Glaciers either, and Hashem spoke to him to tell him to build the ark...

It is foolish, in my opinion, to try to ascribe natural reasons for the miracles of the Torah.

[imaknick]

It is obvious these are miracles. But, is it not possible for g-d to use natural causes to perform miracle?  Im just trying to find a relationship between science and the torah