Author Topic: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles  (Read 17392 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« on: February 27, 2014, 02:02:22 AM »
The following is Soncino's translation of Sanhedrin 26b
Quote
R. Nahman said: Those who accept charity from Gentiles26 are incompetent as witnesses;27
provided, however, that they accept it publicly, but not if they accept it in private. And even if
publicly [accepted], the law is applicable only if, when it was possible for them to obtain it privately
they yet degraded themselves by open acceptance. But where [private receipt] is impossible, it
[public acceptance] is vitally necessary.28
Footnotes
(26) Lit., ‘Those who eat of a thing unnamed (other).’ דבר אחר is the colloquial term for pork; the whole expression is metaphorical, and is meant as translated in the text. (V. Rashi and Tosaf.).
(27) For such an action is regarded as a profanation of ‘The Name’, and he who performs it is regarded as wicked.
(28) Lit., ‘it is a matter of life’. Cf. Yoma 82a, ‘Nothing stands in the way of saving life’.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 02:12:09 AM »
Did not the gentiles make offerings on the altar in Jerusalem?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 02:13:29 AM »
Also does this apply to Noachides? I can understand not using charity from those who engage in Avodah Zara...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2014, 02:15:54 AM »
I will quote another source from the Talmud, but you must also read Soncino's footnote, otherwise it will be confusing to you and you will misunderstand the message
This is Soncinon's translation of Sota 47b
Quote
When there multiplied they who accepted
charity of Gentiles, Israel became on top and they below, Israel went forward and they backward.32
Footnote
(32) A euphemism for the reverse: Israel became below etc. This sentence has fallen out of the text in some modern
editions.
Later, I will try to answer some of the issues raised by muman613

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2014, 02:20:50 AM »
Did not the gentiles make offerings on the altar in Jerusalem?

 This was between them and G-D and not for Israel. The offering was for G-D (really for themselves). And it was burnt all if I remember correctly. Its no charity for any Jew.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2014, 02:23:06 AM »
Mishlei: "Charity will uplift a nation, but the kindness of the nations is a sin" (Proverbs 14:34).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2014, 02:26:25 AM »
The Talmud in tractate Chulin 13b teaches that accepting free will sacrificial offerings from them is in a different category than charity.
Here is the Soncino translation.
Quote
R. ‘Ukba b. Hama said: The rule applies to the matter of accepting sacrifices
from them. For it has been taught:4 Of you,5 but not all of you, thus excluding an apostate. ‘Of you’,
that is to say, among you [Israelites] is a distinction drawn but not among the gentiles.6 But are you
correct in this? Perhaps this is the meaning [of the Baraitha]: As regards Israelites, you may accept
sacrifices from the righteous but not from the wicked, but as regards gentiles you may not accept
sacrifices from them at all?7 — You cannot entertain such a view, for it has been taught: [It would
have sufficed had Scripture stated], a man,8 why does it state, ‘a man, a man? To include gentiles,
that they may bring either votive or freewill-offerings like an Israelite.
Footnotes
(4) V. supra p. 19.
(5) Lev. I, 2.
(6) I.e., sacrifices may he accepted from all gentiles without exception.
(7) And so when the Baraitha states that no distinction is made among the gentiles it is entirely negative, i.e., on no
account and in no circumstances may sacrifices be accepted from gentiles.
(8} Lev. XXII, 18. The verse, translated literally, reads: A man, a man of the children of Israel . . . that bringeth his
offering etc. It is suggested that the repetition of ‘a man’ extends the law to include such persons other than those
contemplated in the ordinary meaning of the verse; in this case, gentiles.

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2014, 02:18:09 PM »
I think the reasoning for this is simple- its about influence. When someone gives charity to someone else they have an influence upon them and such. For example their are Xtians in Judea and Samaria today taking over some of the hilltops and spreading their ideology upon Am Yisrael. Some of the Settlers accepted their charity now they have been desensitized to this fact and this allows the Xtians to take over Eress Yisrael.

 Same with government and Torah learning. Ben Gurion did this in order to control the Religion. When someone controls the Religion they control the masses. That's the way it is. Anyone who funds you, has control over you one way or another.
 Another example is America controlling Israel by the "aid" it gives it. This is why all aid all forms of charity must be broken completely and true independence achieved. That is the way to get real clarity and such and not be desensitized to different ideologies and control.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2014, 02:21:13 PM »
Special commentary on Missionaries in Samaria.

.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2014, 04:08:56 PM »
Edu,

Now that you have brought this issue up... Could you explain how it relates to JTF and the support given to it from non-Jews?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2014, 02:15:18 AM »
Quote from Muman613
Quote
Also does this apply to Noachides? I can understand not using charity from those who engage in Avodah Zara...
There is a difference of opinion how to understand Rambam Hilchot Melachim (Laws of Kings) 10:10 in the standard editions on this issue.
There is also a separate issue, is the Halacha in accordance with the Rambam, since the Levush says that there is a Chilul Hashem, when Jews get money from the Gentiles because there is a complaint against Am Yisrael, that they don't sufficiently take care of their poor on their own.
According to Maharasha to Sota 47b it is implied that getting charity from even a good Noachide will give them power over us, where the Torah blessing/ideal is that the nation of Israel is in power and we are the givers of charity to "Ger Toshav" or loaning money at interest to regular Gentiles.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2014, 02:43:29 AM »
I suppose this is one of the lessons learned from Parsha Lech Lecha, when Abraham turned down the offer from the king of Sodom...



http://www.torah.org/learning/legacy/5770/lechlecha.html

Parshas Lech Lecha

Of Threads and Shoelaces

To the victor belong the spoils, but sometimes he's just not interested. Abraham was cut from that cloth. He had just won a fierce war against four powerful Mesopotamian kings who had invaded the land of Canaan. After laying waste to the countryside, the Mesopotamians had carried off the population and wealth of Sodom and set off for home, but Abraham gave chase. He routed the invaders and pursued them all the way to Damascus, and in the process, he liberated the captives and recovered the stolen wealth..

The king of Sodom begged Abraham to keep the wealth, but Abraham absolutely refused. "I will not even take a thread or a shoelace nor anything else that is yours," he declared, "so that you should not be able to say, `I enriched Abraham.'"

The Sages of the Talmud greatly admired Abraham's refusal to accept a reward from the king of Sodom. In fact, they point out, because Abraham spurned the strings and shoelaces of Sodom, his descendants were rewarded with the two commandments of the tzitzith fringes and the tefillin straps.

The commentators, however, are puzzled by the connection. They also wonder why Abraham chose to mention these trivial articles. Why wasn't it enough to say that he would take nothing at all? That certainly would have been perfectly clear. Furthermore, why indeed did he refuse to take them?

The answer, they explain, lies in Abraham's attitude toward his great wealth. He never thought he had been blessed with wealth so that he would be able to indulge all his whims and desires. Rather, he saw himself as a caretaker. He believed that the Almighty had entrusted him with all that wealth so that he could spread sweetness and light in the world and draw people closer to Him. He saw his wealth as a sacred trust that extended even to the smallest part of it, because even the most minute things can be used to bring honor to his name.

Abraham, therefore, specifically mentioned threads and shoelaces to show that everything must be seen as a gift from Hashem. And he refused to accept these things from the king of Sodom, because he was concerned that the king would claim the credit for having given these gifts to Abraham, thereby bringing dishonor to the Name of Hashem.

With profound insight, Abraham had discerned the transcendent value of even the smallest things. The Torah, therefore, rewarded his descendants with the tzitzith fringes and the tefillin straps, seemingly insignificant items which play a very exalted role in connecting people to the Creator and bringing them untold Heavenly blessings.

A young man came to a great sage and asked to be accepted as a disciple. The sage took the young man for a stroll through the garden as they discussed various weighty philosophical and ethical issues.
The young man was very astute and intelligent, and he impressed the sage with his sharp questions and insightful observations.

After an hour, they returned from the garden. The sage shook the young man's hand and said, "Farewell and good luck to you."

The young man was stunned. "Do you mean that you will not accept me as your disciple?"

"That is correct."

"But why? Haven't I passed the test? I thought I had made such a good impression on you."

"Young man," said the sage, "when we were walking in the garden you were pulling leaves off the bushes and tossing them on the ground. Why?"

"I don't know," the young man replied. "What does it matter?"

"That exactly is the problem with you. You think the leaves on the bushes don't matter. But they do. Everything has a purpose, and I assure you that those leaves were not put there for you to destroy so casually.."


In our own lives, we live in a society that pursues riches at breakneck speed with barely a backward glance. Everything is expendable and disposable as long as it gets us from one moment to the next. Nonetheless, it is important that every once in a while we pause and take stock. It is important that we see and appreciate the value in all the little things Hashem has placed in the world as part of His divine plan. And in the end, we may even find that focusing on those little things may actually be the most enriching pursuit of all.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2014, 07:47:05 AM »
I found in the Responsa of "Ateret Paz" other suggestions to explain how public acceptance of charity money from the Gentiles is a desecration of G-d's name (Chilul Hashem) and is forbidden to be taken when the Jew can survive without it.
2 Answers he raises fit well with Kahanist ideology.
Quoting from Rabbi Palaji (responsa, Shma Avraham 51) and based on the Talmud Baba Batra, 10b, it seems that  taking the charity money from  the Gentiles causes a lengthening of the exile and the very lengthening of the exile is a desecration of G-d's name.
The answer that "Ateret Paz" favors is that he debases himself publicly in the eyes of the Gentile for the sake of monetary benefit.
We are afraid if the guy is so willing to publicly debase himself for money before the Gentiles, he is the type of guy that might not tell the truth in his testimony like the wicked  עד חמס of Shmot {Exodus} 23:1 and Dvarim {Deut.} 19:6 that the Torah deems to be untrustworthy.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2014, 02:24:13 AM »
The Sages of the Talmud fault Daniel for giving advice to the non Jewish King Nevuchadnezzar, destroyer of the First Temple, to give charity.
Here is the translated quote from Baba Batra page 4 by Soncino
Quote
How came Baba b. Buta to do this [to give advice to Herod], seeing that Rab Judah has said in the
name of Rab (or it may be R. Joshuah b. Levi) that Daniel was punished only because he gave advice
to Nebuchadnezzar, as it is written, Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and
atone thy sins by righteousness and thine iniquities by showing mercy to the poor, if there may be a
lengthening of thy tranquility etc.,16 and again, All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar,17 and
again, At the end of twelve months etc.?18 — If you like I can say that this does not apply to a slave
[of an Israelite, such as Herod was.] who is under obligation to keep the commandments [of the
Torah], or if you like I can say that an exception had to be made in the case of the Temple which
could not have been built without the assistance of Royalty.
From whence do we learn that Daniel was punished? Shall I say from the verse, And Esther called
to Hatach,19 who, as Rab has told us, was the same as Daniel? This is a sufficient answer if we
accept the view of those who say that he was called Hatach because he was cut down [hatach] from
his greatness.20 But on the view of those who say that he was called Hatach because all matters of
state were decided21 [hatach] according to his counsel, what answer can we give? — That he was
thrown Into the den of lions.
Footnotes
(16) Dan. IV, 24.
(17) Ibid. 25.
(18) Ibid. 26. The twelve months’ reprieve is regarded as a result of Daniel's advice.
(19) Esther, IV, 5.
(20) חתך to cut, this being his punishment.
(21) חתך denotes ‘to determine’, ‘to decide’, as well as ‘to cut’.

It might be that midrash tanchuma argues with the Talmud on this point because in the view of midrash tanchuma 1)You might have considered the situation at Daniel's time to be a situation where Jews could not survive without the money. 2) He knew that Nevuchadnezzar's stinginess would eventually win out and he would regret having given the charity money thus harming Nevuchadnezzar's previous charity merits.

I thought of a way on the pshat level to judge Daniel for the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he understood the dream of Nevuchadnezzar as recorded in Daniel 4:9 as Divine permission to suggest to Nevuchadnezzar to give charity.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2014, 02:31:14 AM »
Off topic, but I must say that I was talking about the concept of 'Benefit of the Doubt' with someone in youtube comments today..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2014, 10:05:28 AM »
Here's a link to a recent rabbinical ruling by Rabbi Dov Lior (in Hebrew) forbidding Jews from accepting charity money for Pesach from pro-christian missionary organizations
http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/273929
The article sites other big rabbis both in the eyes of the religious zionist world and the charedi world who forbid taking the charity.

Offline ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4987
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2014, 10:20:55 AM »
Here's a link to a recent rabbinical ruling by Rabbi Dov Lior (in Hebrew) forbidding Jews from accepting charity money for Pesach from pro-christian missionary organizations
http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/273929
The article sites other big rabbis both in the eyes of the religious zionist world and the charedi world who forbid taking the charity.
Although I respect Rav Lior I disagree with him on this.
My reasoning is simple because if you take money from them that is less money they can spend on missionary tracts & money in your pocket.
Better in your pocket than to be spent on missionary tracts.

Offline Irish Zionist

  • Forum Administrator
  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 3812
    • My zootube channel
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2014, 10:27:30 AM »
I found in the Responsa of "Ateret Paz" other suggestions to explain how public acceptance of charity money from the Gentiles is a desecration of G-d's name (Chilul Hashem) and is forbidden to be taken when the Jew can survive without it.
2 Answers he raises fit well with Kahanist ideology.
Quoting from Rabbi Palaji (responsa, Shma Avraham 51) and based on the Talmud Baba Batra, 10b, it seems that  taking the charity money from  the Gentiles causes a lengthening of the exile and the very lengthening of the exile is a desecration of G-d's name.
The answer that "Ateret Paz" favors is that he debases himself publicly in the eyes of the Gentile for the sake of monetary benefit.
We are afraid if the guy is so willing to publicly debase himself for money before the Gentiles, he is the type of guy that might not tell the truth in his testimony like the wicked  עד חמס of Shmot {Exodus} 23:1 and Dvarim {Deut.} 19:6 that the Torah deems to be untrustworthy.
How does this affect when The Jews cannont survive without it? Let me explain, when there is Jews in Judea & Samaria who are fighting tooth and nail to build up Jewish homes or when JTF is spreading the Kahanist message to Jews in Israel? I personally only want The Jews to hear the Kahanist message & to destroy their enemy. Is it going against G-d if I was to give charity to help that goal? I'm confused here.
The banding together by the nations of the world against Israel is the guarantee that their time of destruction is near and the final redemption of the Jew at hand.
Rabbi Meir Kahane

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2014, 11:04:48 AM »
Edu- in regards to Daniel and Nevudhadnezzer, I think the situation would be different because this is the same Nevuhadnezzer who destroyed the Temple, murdered many Jews and threw the rest into exile. Helping him get Mitzvot (by giving some charity) would somewhat cover up for his crimes and such. So perhaps because of this Daniel was punished.
 Also the Gemarrah mentions some famous Reshaim who eventually had offspring who converted to Judaism and even taught Torah in Bnai Brak. Out of all of them Nevuhadnezzer did not merit to have any because his crimes were beyond the pale even in comparison to other wicked people.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2014, 05:50:57 PM »
Talmud Tractate Chulin page 13
Quote
it has been taught: [It would
have sufficed had Scripture stated], a man,8 why does it state, ‘a man, a man? To include gentiles,
that they may bring either votive or freewill-offerings like an Israelite.
Footnote
(8} Lev. XXII, 18. The verse, translated literally, reads: A man, a man of the children of Israel . . . that bringeth his
offering etc. It is suggested that the repetition of ‘a man’ extends the law to include such persons other than those contemplated in the ordinary meaning of the verse; in this case, gentiles.
This derivation that we accept votive or freewill-offerings from Gentiles (as well as perhaps a few other verses of this nature) has been used as a precedent to accept donations from Gentiles that can be classified as similar in nature to the votive or freewill-offerings of Lev. XXII, 18 and not to classic charity. I will provide more details, G-d willing and bli neder, at a later date.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2014, 05:53:33 PM »
In the Talmud tractate Arachin 6b it says {Soncino Translation}:
Quote
Sha'azrek, an Arab, made a gift of a lamp to the synagogue of Rab Judah.
The Pri Adama commentary on the Rambam Hilchot Melachim 10:10 as well as Tosafot ask
How could the donation to the synagogue be accepted?
Don't we have a prohibition to accept from them [because of the prohibition of ביבוש קצירה mentioned by the Pri Adama commentary]?
The answer Pri Adama and Tosafot give is that accepting the gift of a lamp to the synagogue is an extension of the principle that we accept votive or freewill-offerings from the Gentiles [I brought the Biblical source for this in an earlier post].

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2014, 02:42:46 PM »
Not sure if someone posted this. I was looking something up and came about this section:

http://www.torah.org/advanced/shulchan-aruch/classes/chapter19.html

"Charity may be accepted from non-Jews, but a Jew should not accept such charity if Jewish charity is available; see 254:1-2 and 259:4"

It doesn't talk about the penalty, but overall interesting.



Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2014, 03:02:55 PM »


It doesn't talk about the penalty, but overall interesting.

 Yea

Part II: Yoreh De'ah

Chapter 19 - CHARITY


We are commanded to give charity in accordance with our means (see 250:5) and are forbidden to ignore the needs of the poor (247:1). No harm can result from giving charity (247:2). If a person is merciful to the poor G-d will be merciful to him when he is in need (247:3-4).

 Even a poor person who subsists on charity is required to give some of it to charity ( 248 1 ; see 251: 1 2 and 253:8, and see 249:2 on the minimum amount). The court may compel a person to give appropriate amounts to charity ( 248: 1), but minor orphans are usually not compelled to give charity (see 248:3), and charity is generally not accepted from persons who have no property of their own (see 248:4-6). Charity may be accepted from non-Jews, but a Jew should not accept such charity if Jewish charity is available; see 254:1-2 and 259:4.

 A person should be generous in giving charity in both quantity and quality (see 248:8), but he should not give more than he can afford (see 248:7). A person should give a tenth of his income (and initially a tenth of his capital) to charity; he may give up to a fifth if he wishes, and on his deathbed he may give any amount (249:1). On gifts to the poor from crops see Ch.28. Charity should be given graciously and no poor person should be turned away empty-handed (249:3-4,11-13).

 The best form of charity is helping a poor person become self-supporting (249:6;253:11) or giving him work (see 251:6). It is also desirable to encourage others to give (249:5); that the giver and receiver not be known to each other (249:7-9); to give before being asked (249:10); and to give before praying or at the time of commemorating the departed (249:14,16). There is special merit in charity that is used for teaching children Torah or for making weddings for poor girls (249:15-16).

 The community is required to support each poor person at the level to which he was accustomed; see 250:1-4. Charity must be given even to non-Jewish poor, but it is not required to give charity to Jews who regularly violate the Torah (251:1-2). Supporting relatives or neighbors who are in need has priority; see 251:3-5 and 257:8,10. Other persons that have priority include the hungry (251:7); women (251:8); scholars and persons of good heredity (251:9, and see 11). One should not give all his charity to one poor person (257:9). On supporting community employees from charity funds see 251:13.

 Ransom of captives takes precedence over other forms of charity (252:1-3), but paying excessive ransom or attempting to rescue the captives should usually be avoided (see 252:4-5). On priorities among captives (and ransomers) see 252:6-10,12. A captive who can afford it must ransom himself and must compensate anyone who ransoms him (252:11-12).

 A person who has adequate resources that are available to him or assets that he can liquidate at a fair price must not accept charity, though he may accept loans and gifts; see 253:1-3,5,10 and 255:2. On investigating persons who ask for charity to verify that they are actually in need see 251:10;256:1. If a person is qualified to accept charity he need not repay it even when he is able to do so (253:4-5). A person should avoid taking charity if he can support himself in some other way (255:1-2), but if he is in need he should not refuse to accept it (see 253:9,11;255:2), and he may use it to repay debts (see 253:12).

 A promise or intent to give charity is like a vow (see 257:3-4;258:1-2,5-13; 259:1,5-6) and should be fulfilled in accordance with the giver's probable intent (see 258:3-5). If charity is collected for a specific purpose it should be used for that purpose even if more than necessary is collected (see 253:6-7); on using it for other purposes see 251:14;256:4,6;259:2-3; and 356:1 (on burial expenses). Charity funds may be invested (see 259:1) and are not subject to taxation (259:6).

 Every city must appoint trustworthy persons (256:1) to collect charity from residents of the city (256:5-6) according to their means (see 250:5) and distribute it to the city's poor (see 256:6). On specific procedures of collection, distribution, and accountability see 248:2;256:2-4;257:1-2, 5-7,10-11.
 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 07:42:38 PM by Tag-MehirTzedek »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline StarNfist

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Rewards for Jews taking charity from Gentiles
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2014, 08:18:32 PM »
Beg to disagree with great Rabbonim & even with my dear commander Rav Yehuda... Very sorry, but in my humble opinion, some leftist jew-hating ShaBaK snitch brought up that we shouldn't take charity from Gentiles.
To jew-haters, it will accomplish these:
1. Our front-line struggle in givaot, small villages, will be underfunded & collapse. Our fighters go hungry & can't buy security equipment, medical aid, legal defense, etc.
2. Alliance with Bible-believing Christians will be undercut. There are over 20 million Christians only in USA who support our struggle for Authentic Judaism, Judea/Samaria, against arab terror & sand-nazis... Together, we are very strong & it is very hard for jew-haters, leftists, sand-nazis to tackle us both. These Christians are sincere & donate generously, often cutting their own needs.
 Our guys took from Rubashkin & very gratefull... so is it OK to take from a Jewish crook who stole from goyim rather than from goyim directly???
Is it OK to steal? Do the Aseret HaDibrot mean something???
So b4 yelling at me, think about that.
I do believe that when Gentiles help our cause, we must accept gratiously & thanks them. Exception is if they are proven missionaries or have other alterior motives.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Rewards for Jews taking charity from Gentiles
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2014, 08:31:18 PM »
Beg to disagree with great Rabbonim & even with my dear commander Rav Yehuda... Very sorry, but in my humble opinion, some leftist jew-hating ShaBaK snitch brought up that we shouldn't take charity from Gentiles.
To jew-haters, it will accomplish these:
1. Our front-line struggle in givaot, small villages, will be underfunded & collapse. Our fighters go hungry & can't buy security equipment, medical aid, legal defense, etc.
2. Alliance with Bible-believing Christians will be undercut. There are over 20 million Christians only in USA who support our struggle for Authentic Judaism, Judea/Samaria, against arab terror & sand-nazis... Together, we are very strong & it is very hard for jew-haters, leftists, sand-nazis to tackle us both. These Christians are sincere & donate generously, often cutting their own needs.
 Our guys took from Rubashkin & very gratefull... so is it OK to take from a Jewish crook who stole from goyim rather than from goyim directly???
Is it OK to steal? Do the Aseret HaDibrot mean something???
So b4 yelling at me, think about that.
I do believe that when Gentiles help our cause, we must accept gratiously & thanks them. Exception is if they are proven missionaries or have other alterior motives.

Let me just comment to clear up a misconception which you appear to have...

The command to not steal is not in the Aseret HaDibroth actually, even though it is commonly mistranslated as such.

The Aseret HaDibroth (10 commandments) only explicitly forbids 'Kidnapping' which is in line with the overall tone of the second tablet...

Quote
http://www.torah.org/advanced/mikra/5757/sh/dt.57.2.05.html

MURDER-ADULTERY - KIDNAPPING/STEALING

The B'nei Yisra'el had not only been the victims of genocide, seeing their own babies thrown into the Nile, but they had also been witness to the destruction and murder of much of Egyptian society. The Torah is sensitive to the notion that our environment affects us and that our (even necessary) involvement in war can lead to a significant lowering of our moral compass. Witness the specific commands regarding the sanctity of the Mahaneh - war camp (See Ramban's commentary on D'varim 23:10). We had just arrived at Sinai fresh from our first war (against Amalek) - and had to be warned that in spite of what was done to us and in spite of what we had just been commanded to do (defend ourselves), human life is still sacred and we must never lose that awareness: Lo Tirtzach - Do Not Murder.

It is often the fate of slaves (or any "lower class") that they dream of overturning the oppressive class and allowing themselves the freedoms enjoyed by their overlords (Orwell's Animal Farm is a good example). As we are told in Vayyikra (Leviticus) 18, Egyptian society was promiscuous in the extreme and practiced every kind of sexual abomination. Coming from this type of society, it is reasonable to assume that at least some of the B'nei Yisra'el would have thought about "enjoying" such activities. After commanding us regarding proper respect for parents, the Torah commands us about the sanctity of the marital bond. Therefore, the next step in the B'rit is: Lo Tin'af - Do Not Commit Adultery.

[Parenthetic note: The "Halakhic p'shat" of the next Statement is "Do Not Kidnap". This is learned from context (see Rashi ad loc.); since the other statements all carry the possibility of capital punishment, this one must also include a capital crime. The only type of "stealing" which involves the potential for capital punishment is kidnapping.]

People who have been treated badly usually have one of two reactions (and often both at the same time) - they either wish to continue to be subjugated (note the difficulty that many long-term prisoners have with managing their own lives) or they wish to subjugate others. This would be especially true of slaves, who have been used for material gain with no regard for their humanity. We might have reacted in one of these ways, subjugating others or looking for others to subjugate us. Whereas God prohibits the latter - after a fashion - in its earlier prohibition of idolatry, He prohibits the former here. Therefore, the Torah commands us to restrain ourselves from using others for our own material gain: Lo Tignov - Do Not Kidnap.

Aside from this I think it is sad that Jews should depend on anyone or anything besides the mighty hand of Hashem. Imagine for a moment that the Children of Israel in Mitzrayim were given help from others and they managed to escape the bondage of Egypt... We would not have the Ten Commandments if this was the case.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14