Author Topic: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles  (Read 17294 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2014, 08:32:50 PM »
It is actually in this weeks Parsha (Kedoshim) that the true command to not steal is found:



http://www.torah.org/learning/jewish-values/donotsteal2.html

Do Not Steal Part 2
By Rabbi Yehonasan Gefen

There are a number of Mitzvot in the Torah that relate to stealing. The most well-known source is found in the 'Ten Commandments'; The Torah commands us, "Do not steal (loh tignov)-1 " It is less well-known that in Parshas Kedoshim, the Torah further commands us, Do not steal -2. " The Talmud explains that the Torah is teaching two separate kinds of stealing; the stealing referred to in the 'Ten Commandments' actually relates to kidnapping a person-3 . In contrast, the stealing discussed in Parshas Kedoshim, refers to stealing the property or money of another person. The Rabbis explain that the hebrew word used for stealing in this verse, (the root of the word is 'gonev') means one specific kind of stealing - stealing in secret, where nobody else is present-4 . An example of this is if one burgles a home whilst no-one is home.

Two verses later, the Torah tells us yet again not to steal (lon tigzol- 5) . However, on this occasion it uses a different hebrew word, whose root is 'gezel'. The Rabbis explain that this word describes stealing openly. For example, one who robs a bank in the presence of others, is guilty of 'gezel'.

If a person was asked, which is the more severe kind of stealing, stealing in secret or stealing openly, he would likely say that stealing openly is worse. However, the Rabbis tell us that stealing in secret is more severe - why is this the case? They explain that a thief demonstrates a blatant disregard for the will of Hashem, because he flagrantly disregards the commandments to not steal. When this thief steals in public, he shows that he similarly has not regard for the opinions of other people. He feels no concern that they will view him in a degrading fashion. In contrast, a thief who only steals in secret, demonstrates that he fears the opinion of other people. Thus, he shows a strong element of hypocrisy - he fears the opinion of other people, but has no regard for the opinion of Hashem. The open thief is, at least consistent in his disregard for what both Hashem and other people think of him.

The final form of stealing described in the Torah is known as ‘oshek’ - this is translated as cheating others. It refers to when a person refuses to pay someone who has loaned him money, or who has given him services of merchandise. Oshek is considered to be no less severe than actively taking something away from one’s fellow.

1- Parshas Yisro, 20:13
2-Kedoshim, 19:11.
3-Sanhedrin, 86a - see there for an elaboration of the prohibition of kidnapping and for an explanation as to how the Rabbis came to the conclusion that the stealing here only refers to kidnapping.
4-Bava Kamma, 79b.
5-Kedoshim, 19:13.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2014, 08:37:19 PM »
Regarding your question about accepting charity from a disreputable Jew I found the following discussion:



http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/marcrichpardon.html

1. Accepting Charity from Disreputable Figures

It is clear that stolen items cannot be used for ritual purposes, or accepted by charities as gifts. The prophet Isaiah (61:8) writes "for I the Lord love justice, and hate robbery with burnt offerings". The Talmud (Sukkah 30a) states that sacrifices and other ritual objects such as Lulav and Etrog are disqualified if they are stolen.

In addition, the Torah makes it clear that objects acquired in a disreputable fashion (such as an object bartered for relations with a prostitute) carry a taint that makes them unacceptable for sacred use, such as writing a Torah (Deuteronomy 23:19; Shulchan Aruch OH 153:21). However, cash or any fungible asset that is earned from such disreputable activities could be used to acquire ritual objects.

These rules relate to specific objects acquired in disreputable ways, and whether they can be used as sacred objects. However, there is a second issue: accepting money from a "mumar", a habitual sinner. The Talmud states that we do not accept sacrifices from a "mumar" (Hullin 5b). (The definition of a "mumar" in this context is complex. Some say it refers to fundamentally immoral people who reject any sort of moral authority, while others say it includes any habitual sinner. See Yabiah Omer 1:YD 11) It may be that the "mumar" is excluded from giving a sacrifice because we assume he is doing this for ulterior motives (see Orchot Chaim II page 442) or because we view the money of a "mumar" to be tainted (see Sefer Chasidim no. 938; cf. no. 687) Some apply this rule to include all types of charity, and say that we must always refuse the money of a "mumar" (Rama, OH 154:1; YD 254:2). Others distinguish between ritual objects, such as items used in a synagogue, which because of their inherent holiness cannot be donated by a "mumar", and charity that is distributed to the poor, which can be donated by a "mumar"(see Chatam Sofer, comment to Magen Avraham OH 154:18). Others limit this rule to sacrifices, and allow a "mumar" to give any type of charity (Shach YD 254:5; Magen Avraham OH 154:18). Indeed, some argue that charity should be accepted from all types of people, because it is important to encourage sinners to do good deeds (see Yabiah Omer 7: OH 22).

This debate has important implications for who should be accepted as a donor. A majority view would accept charity from disreputable characters. They do so with the hope that the very act of charity may be the donor.s first step in improving his behavior, and because of the practical value the charity will have. An important minority rejects charity from disreputable characters, because the donation is tainted.

There is another element in receiving charity from disreputable characters, and that is the desecration of God.s name (Chillul Hashem). Any action that will diminish the reputation of a religious institution, and as a consequence, desecrate God.s name, is absolutely forbidden (see Rambam Yesodei Hatorah 5:11). I would suggest, that because of this concern, disreputable characters should be barred from giving "naming gifts", where a specific room or lecture is named after a donor. In this instance, the taint of the donor.s name would diminish the reputation of the charity, and result in a Chillul Hashem.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline StarNfist

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2014, 09:15:31 PM »
I don't know what your honor is talking about... but last time I look at 10 Commandments... there is one that forbids STEALING. Question is:

 Is charity from a Jew who stole from goyim is acceptable... but charity from goy is not???

In general, charity from Gentiles been accepted by Jews with gratitude through the ages. King Solomon took charity from King of Tyre to build Beis HaMikdosh. If I do research, I'll find much more & poskim.

I believe current issue with refusing Christian charity originated by leftists & arabs & pushed by ShaBaK snitches. We pay in Jewish blood for it when terror comes.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2014, 09:20:31 PM »
I don't know what your honor is talking about... but last time I look at 10 Commandments... there is one that forbids STEALING. Question is:

 Is charity from a Jew who stole from goyim is acceptable... but charity from goy is not???

In general, charity from Gentiles been accepted by Jews with gratitude through the ages. King Solomon took charity from King of Tyre to build Beis HaMikdosh. If I do research, I'll find much more & poskim.

I believe current issue with refusing Christian charity originated by leftists & arabs & pushed by ShaBaK snitches. We pay in Jewish blood for it when terror comes.

No, as edu pointed out this question was considered by the sages through the ages, even by the Talmudic gedolim.

You did not read what I posted about the different kinds of stealing, and it is generally accepted that the 10 commandments do not forbid theft of property, but rather KIDNAPPING (due to the fact that all the other commandments on the tablet related to death penalty cases). Theft is not a death penalty case according to the Torah.

The commandments concerning theft of property only appear in this weeks portion of Kedoshim (as I clearly stated in posts above).

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2014, 09:21:28 PM »
I suggest you read what I posted about concerning taking charity from a disreputable Jew.... It will greatly help your understanding of the issue.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2014, 09:22:46 PM »
 It is forbidden to steal from anyone, the issue with the 10 Commandments is a side thing, we have 613 Commandments and in them not to steal is included as well. But yea in the 10 Commandments its against Kidnapping and it has with it the DEATH penalty, as opposed to other theft that has penalties (such as paying double and other measures) but not the death penalty. That is why their is this distinction and its not part of the 10 Commandments but part of the 613 Commandments.

 Its also not good to take charity from a thief especially if the money received is from stolen money, but what you claimed about Rubashkin wasn't and isn't true. He didn't steal from anyone.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2014, 09:27:26 PM »
It is forbidden to steal from anyone, the issue with the 10 Commandments is a side thing, we have 613 Commandments and in them not to steal is included as well. But yea in the 10 Commandments its against Kidnapping and it has with it the DEATH penalty, as opposed to other theft that has penalties (such as paying double and other measures) but not the death penalty. That is why their is this distinction and its not part of the 10 Commandments but part of the 613 Commandments.

 Its also not good to take charity from a thief especially if the money received is from stolen money, but what you claimed about Rubashkin wasn't and isn't true. He didn't steal from anyone.

Yes, in Kedoshim the two kinds of theft, Goniv and Gezel are clearly forbidden...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline StarNfist

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2014, 09:40:18 PM »
Issue is MORAL...

We still didn't answer my humble question.

If we condone stealing... from goyim... from anyone... we become corrupt & all falls down. ShaBaK snitches, leftists, arabs beg us to...

As far as Rubashkin... don't believe corrupt pseudo-frumies who cover him. Rubashkin did steal by forging invoices. He stole from banks. What he stole from his workers... he was not even tried for.
Filthy despeakable scumbag dressed as a religious Jew. There are thousands more parasitic useless crooks like him out there.
Shandes al haGoyim!
Shame!!!

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2014, 09:45:42 PM »
Dude, F$%k you, your trying to claim that we say to steal from goyim? Are you retarded?

 And he didn't steal from his workers. Your just making sh^t up. Why in the interviews his workers actually stand for and with him? Who are you troll?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline StarNfist

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2014, 09:49:42 PM »
Dude, f@#@K u twice.

Read the question I'm asking, dumbbell.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2014, 10:31:11 PM »
Issue is MORAL...

We still didn't answer my humble question.

If we condone stealing... from goyim... from anyone... we become corrupt & all falls down. ShaBaK snitches, leftists, arabs beg us to...

As far as Rubashkin... don't believe corrupt pseudo-frumies who cover him. Rubashkin did steal by forging invoices. He stole from banks. What he stole from his workers... he was not even tried for.
Filthy despeakable scumbag dressed as a religious Jew. There are thousands more parasitic useless crooks like him out there.
Shandes al haGoyim!
Shame!!!


I don't know what you are talking about here. Who condones stealing? We sure don't, Jewish law sure doesn't...

And I believe you are wrong about Rubashkin... And who are you to judge him? Do you know something about the case which we don't? Who gives you the right to speak such Lashon Hara about a Jew? Are you even Jewish?

I am beginning to believe those who think you are trolling our forum. We will see how many more questionable things you say.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline StarNfist

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2014, 10:47:52 PM »
Question was:

Is charity from a Jew who stole from goyim is acceptable... but charity from goy is not???

At least we agree that stealing is no good. Some dudes think that it's OK as a way of life.

You can make lots of money by filing an appeal for Rubashkin, since poor dude "didn't steal" & bad anti-semites put him for 20+. Chabad will pay you at least $1M if successful.
Unfortunately, invoices he brought to underwriters he made himself & screwed banks out of $20M. That's the fact. Folder with these fake invoices was found in his office. No loshon hara. It's a sad mussar for everyone to learn.
If you doubt I'm jewish, c'mon over I'll put my circumsized d#@k for you to examine closely. LOL!

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2014, 12:01:55 AM »
Question was:

Is charity from a Jew who stole from goyim is acceptable... but charity from goy is not???

At least we agree that stealing is no good. Some dudes think that it's OK as a way of life.

You can make lots of money by filing an appeal for Rubashkin, since poor dude "didn't steal" & bad anti-semites put him for 20+. Chabad will pay you at least $1M if successful.
Unfortunately, invoices he brought to underwriters he made himself & screwed banks out of $20M. That's the fact. Folder with these fake invoices was found in his office. No loshon hara. It's a sad mussar for everyone to learn.
If you doubt I'm jewish, c'mon over I'll put my circumsized d#@k for you to examine closely. LOL!

The article I posted indicated that money which is stolen is not accepted as Charity according to most....

But Judaism does have the concept of Teshuva, and a person who has transgressed and regrets his transgression, and goes about righting the wrong he did, he may be able to give Charity because it is a part of Teshuva...

Remember what we say every Yom Kippur (Teshuva, Tzedakah, Tefillah annuls the Evil Decree)...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline StarNfist

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2014, 08:31:47 AM »
Amen v'Amen!!!

Finally we got a logical answer.


Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2014, 11:52:54 AM »

I am beginning to believe those who think you are trolling our forum. We will see how many more questionable things you say.

 That's what I say and was saying. Probably some Jew-obsessed neo-Nazi perhaps. Someone throwing accusations against Jews yet not willing to listen to the truth.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline StarNfist

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2014, 12:32:28 PM »
Muman,
Last time I learned Ivris, there was a word "Gneyva". Also "Ganav". From that, derived "Lo Tignov" & "Al Tignov" meaning, literally, "Not to STEAL". Unless there  is new Ivris arose in frum shtetls, whereas it is OK to steal (which many corrupt crooks there do) I stick to my Torah & 10 Commandments. Very sorry to disagree...

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2014, 01:03:22 PM »
F#$k you Nazi troll.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline StarNfist

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2014, 01:12:02 PM »
I already f#$%'d you twice shabak snitch.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2014, 05:59:01 PM »
Muman,
Last time I learned Ivris, there was a word "Gneyva". Also "Ganav". From that, derived "Lo Tignov" & "Al Tignov" meaning, literally, "Not to STEAL". Unless there  is new Ivris arose in frum shtetls, whereas it is OK to steal (which many corrupt crooks there do) I stick to my Torah & 10 Commandments. Very sorry to disagree...

You are just a hard-headed fool if you do not read and learn what the sages are teaching.

There is no question that the 10 commandments deal with the crime of Kidnapping (but you are so thick-headed you think you know better)...

But go on being an ignoramous if you want. You make stuff up and think people will believe you, that is true deception.

You have claimed you will bring the opinions of the sages to support you view on several threads so far, and have not once come through on your word. You make vows which you do not keep.... For this you get Rebuked.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline StarNfist

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2014, 06:41:04 PM »
Dudes like you misinterpid Chazal to suit your lifestyle.

That is why 1000s of worthless parasitic mentally ill batlanim who pretend to be religious Jews go steal from each other & everybody around. Hillul HaShem & Shande al HaGoyim. Go sniff them & you see it. Now they have a justification... Stealing is allowed in Torah... It is not in Aseret HaDibrot... It's "kidnapping"... When they decide to kidnap, they find a reason too.

As kahanists, we must expose that filth & clean up that hara from Am Yisroel.

Rav Kahane was talking about frum corruption in 1970s when he told us how frum girls get themselves fancy wigs that are more beautiful than their natural hair. Why have wig when the reason to have it is to lose beauty after marriage???

That is why Rav Kahane started the JEWISH IDEA. Because we become corrupt & Idea got lost.
Kahanism is to restore an Idea back into Judaism.

Learn!

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2014, 06:44:14 PM »
Your full of Sh^t. Rav Kahane was for learning Torah, respecting others Jews and non-Jews and especially not making up lies about them. Your just here to lie and instigate. Its apparent by the flagrant lies you make up constantly here, and you are new!
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2014, 07:32:20 PM »
Your full of Sh^t. Rav Kahane was for learning Torah, respecting others Jews and non-Jews and especially not making up lies about them. Your just here to lie and instigate. Its apparent by the flagrant lies you make up constantly here, and you are new!

I agree that this guy is full of it...

He is ignorant of what the Torah says, makes unsubstantiated claims which accuse righteous Jews of being corrupt, and he has misrepresented the Torah to suit his sickness.

He has nothing in common with Rabbi Kahane Zt'l and only seems to thrive on hating Jews. His approach is doomed to failure.

StarNFist, you are no Talmid Chocham, you have not brought a single source to substantiate your claims. You make stuff up and expect people to believe you, and you disrespect good Jews.

Grow up man... You are making a mockery of our Jewish faith.

You make an outrageous statement "Stealing is allowed by the Torah". Are you serious, or are you seriously deranged.

We have posted again and again that the Torah portion which we Jews read on this Shabbat expressly forbids theft and robbery.... Yet in your ignorant style you disregard it, and make Satanic claims against the Jewish people. I really suspect that you are a non-Jew who is trying to create problems here. You have not shown anything which would indicate to me that you have any Jewish blood. No respect, no love of fellow Jews, nothing... You do not read what others write, and you repeat falsehood over and over again.

I will be asking for your banning shortly.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2014, 07:41:23 PM »
Quote
There are a number of Mitzvot in the Torah that relate to stealing. The most well-known source is found in the 'Ten Commandments'; The Torah commands us, "Do not steal (loh tignov)-1 " It is less well-known that in Parshas Kedoshim, the Torah further commands us, Do not steal -2. " The Talmud explains that the Torah is teaching two separate kinds of stealing; the stealing referred to in the 'Ten Commandments' actually relates to kidnapping a person-3 . In contrast, the stealing discussed in Parshas Kedoshim, refers to stealing the property or money of another person. The Rabbis explain that the hebrew word used for stealing in this verse, (the root of the word is 'gonev') means one specific kind of stealing - stealing in secret, where nobody else is present-4 . An example of this is if one burgles a home whilst no-one is home.

You are going to honestly argue that the Talmud is not the truth, that the Oral law which we Jews received at Mount Sinai is not the true word of Hashem? According to Rambam (who you will ignorantly accuse of being a leftist, reform rabbi) anyone who denies the truth of the Oral Law (the Talmud) falls into the category of Apikoris (Heretic).

So your 'modern interpretation' of the 10 commandments does not stand. You are caught in your lie. The 10 Commandments, according to Talmud Mesechet Sanhedrin Folio 86a, says that the 10 commandments expressly forbids a form of stealing known as Kidnapping. But ignorantly you will deny it again. But just because you don't believe it doesn't make your belief true.

Deny this you Am Ha'aretz..

http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_86.html
Quote
Whence do we learn a formal prohibition16  against abduction?17 — R. Josiah said: From Thou shalt not steal.18  R. Johanan said: From They shall not be sold as bondsmen.19  Now, there is no dispute: one Master states the prohibition for stealing [i.e., abduction], the other Master for selling [the kidnapped person].

Our Rabbis taught: Thou shalt not steal. — 20 Scripture refers to the stealing of human beings. You say, Scripture refers to the stealing of human beings; but perhaps it is not so, the theft of property [lit., 'money'] being meant? — I will tell you: Go forth and learn from the thirteen principles whereby the Torah is interpreted. [one of which is that] a law is interpreted by its general context: of what does the text speak? of [crimes involving] capital punishment: hence this too refers [to a crime involving] capital punishment.21

Another [Baraitha] taught: Ye shall not steal:22  The Writ refers to theft of property. You say thus, but perhaps it is not so, Scripture referring to the theft of human beings? — I will tell you: Go forth and learn from the thirteen principles whereby the Torah is interpreted,[one of which is that] a law is interpreted by its general context. Of what does the text speak? of money matters;23  therefore this too refuse to a money [theft].
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2014, 07:44:32 PM »
See the true command to not steal in this weeks portion of Kedoshim (Leviticus 19:11)

11. You shall not steal. You shall not deny falsely. You shall not lie, one man to his fellow.

Here is what the Gedolim Rashi wrote about this:

You shall not steal: Heb. לֹא תִּגְנֹבוּ. This is an admonition against someone stealing money, while “You shall not steal (לֹא תִגְנֹב) ” in the Ten Commandments is an admonition against stealing people [i.e., kidnapping]. [This is] a matter derived from its context [namely, “You shall not murder,” “ You shall not commit adultery,” each of which is] a capital crime, [which is the case of kidnapping but not of stealing money]. — [see Rashi on Exod. 20:13; Sanh. 86a]

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The penalty for Jews taking charity money from Gentiles
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2014, 07:45:55 PM »
Grow the Heck up StarNFist, you are looking very foolish recently...

Either you are a Apikorsim, or an Am Ha'aretz... Which is it?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14