Author Topic: Hareidi Rabbi: We’ll Fight Like in Ukraine (Read 2590 times)

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **on:** February 27, 2014, 06:51:37 PM »

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177918#.Uw_O1Zt3u1s

muman613 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2014, 06:53:51 PM »

I fully agree with Rabbi Schulzinger... That this entire problem is due to Lapids desire to denigrate Torah study and separate Jews from their heritage...

Quote

Rabbi Schulzinger argued that the real motive behind the enlistment law is a hatred of hareidi Jews, and a desire to change their way of life. “There is a deep hate of hareidi Jews, a hate led by Yair Lapid,” he accused.

“They want to change our faith. It won’t work,” he continued. “Tanks, APCs – nothing will crush us. The Torah is eternal.”

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2014, 07:33:30 PM »

No we are against THERE version of "Torah" and especially their claim of "Daas Torah", big difference then being against Torah.

They are a growing segment of the population, the more of them, the more of them are needed to be supported by the rest of Israel. They distort the Torah, make a huge Hillul Hashem.

I find it ironic that they refuse to fight for the IDF yet he is threatening a civil war/unrest like its happening in Ukraine!

If they continue in this they will and can get shot, I'm debating now with myself if I will or should shed a tear or not.

The Torah IS eternal, yet they don't represent that eternal Torah but a ghettoized, galut type.

I hope Chaim does a video exposing their fallacy.

The Dati-Leumi community should stop being enablers to them especially after and when they a minority asserted the mantle of the Torah from under our feet, and completely continue to disrespect us in every which way. You declare war on us, we should be allowed to declare war against you.

Ephraim Ben Noach · « **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2014, 07:48:38 PM »

I think all Jewish groups that disagree should break up into different groups and fight. That way they will be well prepared for the real enemy. It worked 2000 some years ago.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2014, 08:10:06 PM »

Quote from: אפרים בן נח on February 27, 2014, 07:48:38 PM

I think all Jewish groups that disagree should break up into different groups and fight. That way they will be well prepared for the real enemy. It worked 2000 some years ago.

They are the one's who split from the Torah and especially the ways of the Perushim they claim to follow.
They are like the Essene sects who only believed in being "spiritual".

The Hachamim and the Perushim (with Rabbi Akiva as the head of the Hachamim) made a violent revolt against the Roman pigs.

Haredim are modern day Essenes.

muman613 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2014, 08:21:09 PM »

I don't know where you come up with these slanders tag...

You have not supplied any evidence to support your position.

I will not accept what you say as truth without any supporting information...

How do you suggest that the 'split from the Torah' when they study the same sources as you and I do... How do they 'distort' the Torah according to you?

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2014, 08:24:33 PM »

Quote from: muman613 on February 27, 2014, 08:21:09 PM

I don't know where you come up with these slanders tag...

You have not supplied any evidence to support your position.

I will not accept what you say as truth without any supporting information...

How do you suggest that the 'split from the Torah' when they study the same sources as you and I do...

Dude they claim that sitting and learning Torah will protect the nation. Is this really the ways of the Torah? Is this what Rabbi Akiva did and stood for? The Perushim fought against the Roman pigs. The Essenes believed in escaping and just learning and being "spiritual". They didn't want to go fight the Roman's. They also believed in fallacy such as the Temple "falling from heaven". The Perushim actually stood and revolted. They continued the Temple service after the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash when we controlled Jerusalem again. (for like 2 years).

muman613 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2014, 08:29:21 PM »

Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on February 27, 2014, 08:24:33 PM

Dude they claim that sitting and learning Torah will protect the nation. Is this really the ways of the Torah? Is this what Rabbi Akiva did and stood for? The Perushim fought against the Roman pigs. The Essenes believed in escaping and just learning and being "spiritual". They didn't want to go fight the Roman's. They also believed in fallacy such as the Temple "falling from heaven". The Perushim actually stood and revolted. They continued the Temple service after the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash when we controlled Jerusalem again. (for like 2 years).

I just spoke with my Rabbi about this... And yes, defense of Israel requires both a military front and a spiritual front. This is what the Rebbe and other great sages of Israel have taught for generations.

You are making a comparison that the IDF is currently fighting the Romans. We all know that the IDF has recently been utilized to evict Jews from their homes. The IDF does destroy Jewish settlements. Would you want to serve in such a unit which does such chillul Hashem? I surely would be demonstrating against the IDF if I were being forced to join such anti-religious regiments.

muman613 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2014, 08:31:50 PM »

I am sure the Rebbes words will not reach tag but others may find the Rebbes words enlightening:

Ephraim Ben Noach · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2014, 08:40:51 PM »

Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on February 27, 2014, 08:24:33 PM

Dude they claim that sitting and learning Torah will protect the nation. Is this really the ways of the Torah? Is this what Rabbi Akiva did and stood for? The Perushim fought against the Roman pigs. The Essenes believed in escaping and just learning and being "spiritual". They didn't want to go fight the Roman's. They also believed in fallacy such as the Temple "falling from heaven". The Perushim actually stood and revolted. They continued the Temple service after the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash when we controlled Jerusalem again. (for like 2 years).

Bull! Some of them joined the Zealots at Masada! They hated the Romans...

Ephraim Ben Noach · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2014, 08:43:38 PM »

Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on February 27, 2014, 08:10:06 PM

They are the one's who split from the Torah and especially the ways of the Perushim they claim to follow.
They are like the Essene sects who only believed in being "spiritual".

The Hachamim and the Perushim (with Rabbi Akiva as the head of the Hachamim) made a violent revolt against the Roman pigs.

Haredim are modern day Essenes.

The Essenes were not complete pacifists like everyone thinks, they thought the leaders of Israel had become corrupt, and the Temple Priests weren't the real Levite and Cohen. ..

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2014, 08:47:02 PM »

Quote from: אפרים בן נח on February 27, 2014, 08:40:51 PM

Bull! Some of them joined the Zealots at Masada! They hated the Romans...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

Woow I read a little of them, describes Haredim!

the Essenes lived in various cities but congregated in communal life dedicated to asceticism (some groups practiced celibacy), voluntary poverty, and daily immersion. Many separate but related religious groups of that era shared similar mystic, eschatological, messianic, and ascetic beliefs. These groups are collectively referred to by various scholars as the "Essenes."

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2014, 08:51:15 PM »

Quote from: אפרים בן נח on February 27, 2014, 08:43:38 PM

The Essenes were not complete pacifists like everyone thinks, they thought the leaders of Israel had become corrupt, and the Temple Priests weren't the real Levite and Cohen. ..

Yea, and they preached and practiced escapism. They ran away to the desert and didn't fight like the Perushim. Eventually they were slaughtered by the Romans (similar to the Holocaust remember).

The Perushim were the real tradition of the Torah. Not the non-sense of escapism, not the nonsense of passivism and Temple's falling from the sky, but actual real war against the pigs.
They were like the Dati- Leumi- Kahanists of today. Haredim are like the Essenes and the extreme leftists are like the Tzaddukim.

muman613 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2014, 08:58:42 PM »

I have discussed the concept of the 'temple falling from heaven'... There are sources which support such a view.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/148182/jewish/Who-Will-Build-the-Third-Bais-Hamikdash-Man-or-G-d.htm

Quote

A Building of the Heavens or of the Earth

There is a classic difference of opinion between our Rabbis regarding the construction of the Third Beis HaMikdash. The Rambam states1 that the Beis HaMikdash will be built by man, more specifically by Mashiach. Indeed, its construction will be one of the signs of Mashiach’s advent.

Rashi,2 by contrast, explains that the Beis HaMikdash has already been constructed by G‑d and exists in the heavenly realms, waiting for the time when it will descend to the earth. For the Third Beis HaMikdash will be “the Sanctuary of G‑d, established by Your hands.”3 When the setting within the world is appropriate, this heavenly structure will descend and become an actual reality within our material world.

Each of these views is based upon sources in the works of our Sages.4 There is, however, a unique historical point which supports the Rambam’s position. Our Sages relate5 that in the era of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Chananiah, the Romans granted the Jews permission to rebuild the Beis HaMikdash. Joyous at the opportunity they were granted, our people rushed to begin the preparations for building only to have the project thwarted by the intervention of the Samaritans. What is significant, however, is that they planned to build the Beis HaMikdash through their own efforts; they did not wait for it to descend from the heavens.

Will We Be Worthy?

This account can, however, be reconciled with Rashi’s view. To explain: Our Sages6 note the apparent contradiction between two verses describing the coming of Mashiach. One verse states:7 “Behold, one like a son of man came on the clouds of heaven.” It is, however, also written:8 “Your king will come... like a poor man riding on a donkey.” In resolution, our Sages explain that if the Jews are found worthy, Mashiach will come “on the clouds of heaven”; if they do not merit, he will come “like a poor man riding on a donkey.” Similarly, in other contexts, our Sages describe one course for the Redemption if the Jews’ conduct is meritorious, and another, if, heaven forbid, such merits are lacking.9

In the present context as well, it can be explained that the ultimate conception of the Beis HaMikdash is a heavenly structure to descend from above. If, however, the Jews are not worthy of such a sanctuary, the Beis HaMikdash will still return in the Era of the Redemption. It will, however, be a structure built by man, and not by G‑d.

On this basis, we can also resolve the difficulty cited above. When the Romans granted the Jews the opportunity to rebuild the Beis HaMikdash, the people must have been somewhat disappointed that the Beis HaMikdash did not descend from heaven. Nevertheless, the realization that they had not been found worthy of a heavenly structure did not dampen their enthusiasm for building a sanctuary to the fullest extent of their human potential.10
.
.
.

Thus it is not a 'fallacy' to believe that this could happen...

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2014, 09:02:08 PM »

Quote from: muman613 on February 27, 2014, 08:58:42 PM

I have discussed the concept of the 'temple falling from heaven'... There are sources which support such a view.

Thus it is not a 'fallacy' to believe that this could happen...

You take it literal? I do not.

muman613 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2014, 09:04:19 PM »

Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on February 27, 2014, 09:02:08 PM

You take it literal? I do not.

Read the words of the sages and determine that there are two possible redemptions... Like with Moshiach, it can happen two different ways depending on the Jewish peoples merit.

The first redemption from Egypt occurred despite the fact that the Jewish people were not worthy. Hashem sent Moses to redeem them.

Do you think it makes you 'cool' to denigrate others?

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2014, 09:18:41 PM »

"I fully agree with Rabbi Schulzinger... "

In the whole thing including making demonstration/protests/rebellion/civil-war or whatever you want to call it like in the Ukraine?
You still fully agree?

muman613 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2014, 10:09:46 PM »

Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on February 27, 2014, 09:18:41 PM

"I fully agree with Rabbi Schulzinger... "

In the whole thing including making demonstration/protests/rebellion/civil-war or whatever you want to call it like in the Ukraine?
You still fully agree?

I am praying that no violence will come about because of this. It is horrifying to think that this is what it has come to...

muman613 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 28, 2014, 12:26:14 AM »

Tag,

I just want to add that now I do not support the Haredim because of their obvious hatred of Religious Zionists. An article I just read on A7 seems to indicate that some Religious Zionist rabbis offered to attend the rally and increase the number of protesters (by bringing their yeshiva students).... But due to the animosity coming from the Haredim, there are some threats of violence against these good Religious Zionist rabbis.

There is no Torah excuse for such Chillul Hashem. All Jews, of every branch, should be able to join together in the good cause of Torah. These Haredim rabbis who are threatening the RZ rabbis are animals for acting like this.

I feel very sad and confused about these events. I called my Rabbi all depressed this afternoon due to this... The internal conflicts of the Jews may be the very thing which destroy our entire existence. That this is occurring just before Purim is a double dose of sadness...

The Jew haters are celebrating..

I weep for Am Yisroel...

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #19 on:** February 28, 2014, 12:51:40 AM »

Thank you, I am glad you are able to see this as well. And

"These Haredim rabbis who are threatening the RZ rabbis are animals for acting like this."

My feelings 100%.

This is and was an ongoing thing over and over again. At one point we need to let go emotionally and see for what it is. RZ have always been respectful (for the most part) and even looked up to Haredim, while we see such vileness coming from some of them in the Haredi side, and its from the top and not just lone individuals. Enough is enough.

muman613 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 28, 2014, 12:57:28 AM »

This is the article which upset me:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177944#.UxAa1nWx1pk

Rabbi, Students: No Place for Zionists at Hareidi Rally
Yeshiva students, leading rabbi urge religious-Zionists who are planning to attend hareidi rally to reconsider.
By Maayana Miskin
First Publish: 2/28/2014, 1:13 AM

Students at religious-Zionist yeshivas have urged religious-Zionist rabbis who are planning to attend a massive hareidi protest against mandatory military enlistment to reconsider.

Hareidi leaders have called a rally in protest of the government’s decision to criminalize non-enlistment among hareidi yeshiva students, who have historically been allowed to defer military service.

Some religious-Zionist rabbis have said they will be at the rally. Rabbi Shlomo Aviner told Kol B’Rama radio that he would be there, saying, “Just like the nation needs an army – that’s obvious – the nation needs Torah… We can’t hurt one without hurting the other.”

Students warn: hareidi mob could be dangerous
A group of students wrote a letter urging the rabbis not to attend, and even warning that they could come to harm due to strong anti-Zionist sentiment among those present.

The letter, a copy of which reached Arutz Sheva, quoted several articles from hareidi news sources in which religious-Zionist rabbis were accused of spreading anti-Torah teachings, of “ruining everything,” and of being “wicked.”

“Even if the purpose of the prayer rally Sunday were a good one – please don’t go, because of the danger posed by the herd which is incited by its leaders,” they wrote.

Rabbi Ronsky: Zionists don't belong at anti-enlistment event
Rabbi Avichai Ronsky, the former Chief Rabbi of the IDF and head of the Itamar yeshiva, declared that religious-Zionist rabbis should avoid the rally for ideological reasons.

“I really find it difficult to understand how there are rabbis, great Torah scholars, some of them my teachers, who are calling to participate [in the rally] and even plan to attend,” he said.

“Our moral understanding, our understanding of halakhah [Jewish law], is that men must enlist in the army. Even Torah scholars – maybe for a limited period of time, like in the hesder program… That’s our Jewish and moral understanding,” he declared.

It is clear that the planned hareidi rally will be a protest against enlisting in the IDF, and not merely a protest against the planned criminal sanctions, he said. “They call not to enlist in the army, even for those who aren’t learning [Torah]."

“It’s no secret that many don’t enlist even if they aren’t learning… The rabbis simply do not want them to enlist, because they want to keep their community separate from society,” he accused.

He noted that Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has promised that no yeshiva students will be sent to jail.

“I call on our entire community not to take part in the protest, which will call on the hareidi community not to enlist in the army,” he concluded.

Sveta · « **Reply #21 on:** February 28, 2014, 12:58:27 AM »

Wait...so are Breslev and Chabad included or excluded from the Hareidi organizations causing this division?

I know for a fact that Breslev is very pro Israel. But, they are also Haredi Chassidim. So, how could I be against Hareidim in but follow Breslev. Unless somehow, Breslev was one of the groups turned away from the rally?

muman613 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 28, 2014, 01:01:28 AM »

Quote from: IsraeliHeart on February 28, 2014, 12:58:27 AM

Wait...so are Breslev and Chabad included or excluded from the Hareidi organizations causing this division?

I know for a fact that Breslev is very pro Israel. But, they are also Haredi Chassidim. So, how could I be against Hareidim in but follow Breslev. Unless somehow, Breslev was one of the groups turned away from the rally?

Yes, my understanding is Breslev is Pro-Zionist and supports the state... I don't know how divisive the Haredim are...

I also want to say I do not hate them (the Haredim) , I do not want to destroy them, I just want to speak sense to them...

Sveta · « **Reply #23 on:** February 28, 2014, 01:03:01 AM »

I support men studying Torah all day because it is a protection/ spiritual front for Israel. If they seriously want to study all day and do it for them, for Israel etc. then good. I don't want those type of students in the IDF in those situations.

But those who spend all day studying just to get out of work...but at the same time hate Israel, hate Zionism and yet live in Israel and live off the very government they hate, should be kicked out. So who are these groups besides Satmer and NK?

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #24 on:** February 28, 2014, 01:03:42 AM »

Quote from: IsraeliHeart on February 28, 2014, 12:58:27 AM

Wait...so are Breslev and Chabad included or excluded from the Hareidi organizations causing this division?

I know for a fact that Breslev is very pro Israel. But, they are also Haredi Chassidim. So, how could I be against Hareidim in but follow Breslev. Unless somehow, Breslev was one of the groups turned away from the rally?

Breslov are really independent people. Anyone can and does call themselves Breslov, since Rebbe Nachman's death they didn't and don't really have any structure.

I presume some of the extreme parts of Breslov- those in Mea Sharim will probably participate. Not sure about the Breslov you are probably more familiar with. (R Lazer Brody, R' Arush).