Abortion is murder

[Israel Chai]

Your going to go with some picture over statistics? And its a government agency on top of that. + we hear of some cases in the news as well.

 Now besides life and death, even a Safek of it (of which their is no argument on from any of the poskim, up to the point of birth it isn't only Muttar-allowed, its a MUST) if on the other hand their is abortion not for the life risk of the mother it still doesn't = murder, certainly not for Jews. It is wrong in many cases (can even be considered a grave sin) but its not murder. If you define it as murder, especially in the Halahic sense, then bring something to back up your argument. 
 + Certainly if you would consider it murder then the mother and/or doctor would be liable for the death penalty under Beit Din. No such thing exists in this case.
 I think that their can be a confusion stemming from goyim doing it and it thus being equated with murder, BUT perhaps it can be equated with theft of which the punishment is the same.

Dude, it's getting really annoying to respond to you when you argue against things I never said. Read what I say, and re-read next time, because I'm sick of it.

1. The statistics are correct. I never argued against them. As I responded, they are statistics by Muman responding to a point I never mentioned, being that **************NO*************** mothers die in childbirth, which would almost be as retarded to say as attacking me for saying that after my comment. Make a real response. What the DOCTOR, not me, but the DOCTOR said, is that there were no examples he could find where it was known that an abortion would save the life of the mother.

2. You can show me all the Rabbis in the world that say the opposite (and not all do). I will argue against it still. Your wife is giving birth, and you wait until 2cm of the head are out to stab the baby, you're a murderer.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Dude, it's getting really annoying to respond to you when you argue against things I never said. Read what I say, and re-read next time, because I'm sick of it.

1. The statistics are correct. I never argued against them. As I responded, they are statistics by Muman responding to a point I never mentioned, being that **************NO*************** mothers die in childbirth, which would almost be as retarded to say as attacking me for saying that after my comment. Make a real response. What the DOCTOR, not me, but the DOCTOR said, is that there were no examples he could find where it was known that an abortion would save the life of the mother.

2. You can show me all the Rabbis in the world that say the opposite (and not all do). I will argue against it still. Your wife is giving birth, and you wait until 2cm of the head are out to stab the baby, you're a murderer.

 So why bring this retarded "doctor" if he is saying something bombastically WRONG in the first place? You brought him to make a point, you were proven otherwise. Get over it.

[Israel Chai]

So why bring this retarded "doctor" if he is saying something bombastically WRONG in the first place? You brought him to make a point, you were proven otherwise. Get over it.

I'm done.

[muman613]

This argument is getting old... And I believe we have covered the topic sufficiently...

But here are some sources where the Jewish view (and halachas) can be learned:

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html

As a general rule, abortion in Judaism is permitted only if there is a direct threat to the life of the mother by carrying the fetus to term or through the act of childbirth. In such a circumstance, the baby is considered tantamount to a rodef, a pursuer6 after the mother with the intent to kill her. Nevertheless, as explained in the Mishna,7 if it would be possible to save the mother by maiming the fetus, such as by amputating a limb, abortion would be forbidden. Despite the classification of the fetus as a pursuer, once the baby's head or most of its body has been delivered, the baby's life is considered equal to the mother's, and we may not choose one life over another, because it is considered as though they are both pursuing each other

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/sex.htm

Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion.  Where the mother's life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

An unborn child has the status of "potential human life" until its head has emerged from the mother.  Potential human life is valuable, and is not to be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence.  The Talmud makes no bones about this:  it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers.  But once the head has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother's, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/529077/jewish/What-is-the-Torahs-View-on-Abortion.htm

http://www.jewishanswers.org/?p=880

Question: I’m Jewish and against abortion. But, Jewish law teaches abortion is ok. How do I remain Jewish and reconcile Jewish law? This is what I got from another website: “Abortion: Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother’s life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory. An unborn child has the status of “potential human life” until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother’s, because you cannot choose between one human life and another. ” I’ve never read the Talmud but if what this author claims is correct – then Judaism permits abortion. And, that’s unacceptable to me in many cases.

Answer: The information you received was accurate, but misleading.

The source is a Mishna (Oholos 7:6), which states that if the baby is threatening the mother’s life, you may abort. Implicit in this teaching, of course, is that in a case where the mother’s life is not threatened, abortion is forbidden. Indeed, even in cases where having the baby will cause significant hardship, financial or otherwise, Jewish law nevertheless does not permit abortion.

You were also correct in that before birth, the status of the unborn fetus is not on par with that of a born child. The basis for that is found in the Torah. In Exodus 21:22-25 the Torah discusses a case where someone strikes a pregnant woman and causes her to miscarry. The punishment is monetary and not capital, and this serves as a source for establishing the status of the fetus. (For further reading, see the Septuagint which translates this passage quite differently than the original Hebrew. This mistranslation implied that a viable fetus does have the status of a person born child. It is also noteworthy that based on this translation, the early church fathers equated abortion with full-fledged murder and canonized this into Christian law.)

Yehoshua Lewis

Question: Thank you, Rabbi Lewis. This is a powerful issue for me. I’ve never been in a situation where a child I fathered was aborted. However, I did lose a son to miscarriage and that was very painful. I’m 32 and have and had female friends and family who had abortions and I see the spiritual and psychological damage it’s done to them. I don’t believe pro-choice advocates tell the whole story. Recent events in South Dakota have made me all the more aware.

I don’t feel that abortion is right in all cases but I believe becoming a parent means a willingness to sacrifice even life itself for my child. Thus, I wonder if saving the life of the mother is, indeed, justification enough for abortion. Certainly I have compassion for people. I pray that no one ever has to make that choice. What do you believe?

Intellectually, I understand what you mean about the fetus becoming a full-fledged human life only after it is born. But, when is a child born? After conception or after it passes through the vagina? Knowing what people know now about premature birth and the ability to successfully incubate a child 3 or months prematurely born – does a child have to be physically “born” to be considered a full-fledged human being?

Answer: In Jewish law, a child (or any mammal for that matter is “born” when either the head emerges or if most of the body emerges. Whether or not the child can survive on its own without the mother does not play a role in determining the status of the fetus.

As for what I believe. I believe that the Torah was given by God to man as a moral code book for life. Sometimes we don’t understand everything in there, but it nevertheless represents Divine wisdom. So what I assume you are asking me is to pretend that the Torah wasn’t given yet. Which direction would my own moral compass point me to? ( Keep in mind that my years of Torah study make me quite a biased arbiter. But I will try.) I happen not to have a strong personal opinion either way. The way I look at it is, if the fetus is just a part of the woman’s body, then abortion is OK. If its not, its murder. Who makes that determination? Who can decide either way? I can’t. To me, both arguments have their merits.

I enjoy your questions. It’s dialogues like this that have kept the Jewish people alive for all these years.

[Israel Chai]

OK, well you can promote fines for someone that stabs babies with 1cm of head out, I'll promote Mr. Sparky.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

OK, well you can promote fines for someone that stabs babies with 1cm of head out, I'll promote Mr. Sparky.

 What fines? Why? And no court today with real power and authority. Things aren't just by your feelings. Here I will give a list of the Poskim past and present and what they said on this issue, (FYI I disregard the Zohar, but will include it anyway because it is part of the post and I don't want to distort it)

1.Tosfos - abortion is Muttar
2.Ran and Rosh - abortion is muttar as long as you are not putting the mother in physical danger by terminating the pregnancy
3.Ramban, Ramah, Behag - Abortion is a bad thing because we are preventing the existence of a future Human being and shomer Mitzvos, but it is still permitted to do in extenuating circumstances
4.Maharit - Abortion is assur because one is wounding, or causing a chavallah, in the pregnant mother.  According to this approach, abortions would be permitted for constructive purposes, in the same way that one is allowed to wound oneself for a constructive purpose.  Some would extend this even further and say that a woman can abort her own fetus, just as she is allowed to wound herself.
5.Rav ZN Goldberg 's understanding of the Rambam - that abortion would be prohibited due to chavallah of the fetus (this would be an additional reason for the prohibition, above whatever understanding you may have of the Rambam, and above other reasons suggested by HaRav Goldberg in other places. I am not claiming that HaRav Goldberg holds that this is the only reason why an abortion may be prohibited.  - see our lengthy discussion of the Rambam's opinion here)
6.According to the Ohr Sameakh's understanding of the Rosh, one who performs an abortion without the permission of the parents is transgressing the prohibition of gezeilah, stealing.
7.According to HaRav SZA ZTL one who aborts a fetus is guilty of gezeilah from the fetus him/herself.  Whether or not the parents would be allowed to give permission remains an open question.
8.Chavos Yair,  due to the prohibition of wasting seed (which according to him is a torah prohibition)
9.According to the Mizrachi and Rav Chaim Palagi and their interpretation of the Rishonim,  the Chachamim declared that a Jew is prohibited from performing an abortion because a gentile is prohibited, and it would be inappropriate for a Jew to be allowed to do something that is prohibited to a gentile.  They explicitly and vehemently reject the possibility that it has anything to do with Shefichat damim (murder).
10.According to R Yaakov Emden, abortions are prohibited because of waste, which is a rabbinic aspect of the HZL prohibition; therefore they can be performed in circumstances of great need. If the child is illegitimate from a relationship that would incur the death penalty, the RYE would allow it outright.
11.The opinion of the Beit Yehuda and the Chofetz Chaim (according to his interpretation of Tosfos) that it was a rabbinic decree and the reason for this decree was because it is akin to murder.
12.Abortion is a rabbinic decree because permitting abortions would encourage promiscuity (Chavos Yair 31)
13.Abortion is a rabbinic decree because it would be a negation of the mitzvah of P’ru U’rvu (the obligation to procreate) (Mishpetei Uziel here)
14.Abortion was a rabbinic decree because it will prevent the potential of a future life (Mishpetei Uziel here)
15.Abortion was a rabbinic decree because by terminating a pregnancy, one prevents a future soul from doing mitzvos (Ohel Moshe by Rav Moshe Zweig Chelek 3 page 49)
16.Abortions are considered morally wrong by other religions, and thus we should also take a moral stand (Ohel Moshe, see above)
17.The opinion of Rav Moshe Feinstein that it is indeed prohibited due to murder
18.The opinion of the Maharam Shick and Sdei Chemed that it is Avizrayhu of retzichah due to chatzi shiur
19.The opinion of the Minchas Avrohom that it is due to murder but he differs from RMF by only applying this rule if the fetus is viable
20.The opinion of the Meshekh chochmah and Moshav Zekeinim LeDaas Baalei Tosfos who hold that it is murder and liable "medin shamayim", and the drasha of rabbi yishmael only exempts Jews from punishment from Beit Din
21.One more opinion is that of the Zohar, which I did not discuss because it is unclear from the Zohar what the Zohar actually holds from a Halachic perspective.  The Zohar speaks about how terrible abortion is because it is ruining the creation of God. (see` Zohar Shmot 3:2)

http://rationalistmedicalhalacha.blogspot.com/2011/02/now-that-i-have-completed-my.html

[Israel Chai]

22. Peasant LKZ: Abortion is murder

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

22. Peasant LKZ: Abortion is murder

  peasants are worthless garbage.   

[Israel Chai]

peasants are worthless garbage.   

Peasents were adherets to a Feudal system where they were bought and sold with land, and were farmers. Anyways, you don't even understand me when I talk, so keep your lashon hara for yourself.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Peasents were adherets to a Feudal system where they were bought and sold with land, and were farmers. Anyways, you don't even understand me when I talk, so keep your lashon hara for yourself.

 Lashon Hara? You referred to yourself as a "peasant". How is that Lashon Hara? I said when dealing with serious questions such as this, when we have Hachamim vs. a self described "peasant" , for me the opinions and rulings of the Hachamim are more important then blanket statements from "peasants", or put another way "Am Haartzim" (Jewish way of saying "people of the land" aka peasants).

[Israel Chai]

Lashon Hara? You referred to yourself as a "peasant". How is that Lashon Hara? I said when dealing with serious questions such as this, when we have Hachamim vs. a self described "peasant" , for me the opinions and rulings of the Hachamim are more important then blanket statements from "peasants", or put another way "Am Haartzim" (Jewish way of saying "people of the land" aka peasants).

As per your sources, I'm not alone on this. I'm not a peasant either. Just giving you more rope to do with as you please, since you were acting self-superior.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

As per your sources, I'm not alone on this. I'm not a peasant either. Just giving you more rope to do with as you please, since you were acting self-superior.

 Dude, whatever. I don't want to further discuss much with you. Sorry to say but your mentality is that of a fundamentalist. If you refuse to recognize the sources of Halacha then we have nothing to discuss. You fit in much more with the Christian fundamentalist type of crowds and perhaps you can include some of the "Kabbalists"/ people who scream "Daas Toyrah" yet don't have any Daat (or Daas as they say) themselves and aren't able to rationally and Halahically deal with the issues.
 Real Peasants 

[Israel Chai]

Dude, whatever. I don't want to further discuss much with you. Sorry to say but your mentality is that of a fundamentalist. If you refuse to recognize the sources of Halacha then we have nothing to discuss. You fit in much more with the Christian fundamentalist type of crowds and perhaps you can include some of the "Kabbalists"/ people who scream "Daas Toyrah" yet don't have any Daat (or Daas as they say) themselves and aren't able to rationally and Halahically deal with the issues.
 Real Peasants 

When did you start hating your fellow Jews so much? One way or another, you can clearly see that other Rabbis agree with my position, murder unless it's to save a life. Also, it's human logic. If you kill a baby when it has 2 cm of head out, or 5 cm of head out, no risk to the mother, what would be the difference in punishment? You can't tell me you'll punish a mid-delivery stabber any less than one who waits until after the delivery to stab the baby, if he did it in front of you on your first son's first birthday. I'm going at the issues slowly now, and you have yet to provide a legitimate response to the question I've repeated to you now at least five times. What would be the punishment for the chief Rabbi in Israel if he waited until only 1 mm was left before the amount of head your baby had out was enough for it to be human, and he stabbed it? The baby is a living, self-sustaining thing that might potentially die, and though it can live on its own, it just hasn't tried it yet, so that gets it the status of what? If you stick it in a machine, and it never lives on it's own, or was raised in a test tube, and then can survive without the machine, but is still connected, killing it is murder just the same if it's connected or you take 1 second to unplug it, because it's alive. The Rabbis are clearly not talking about this kind of abortion we have today, but about taking a plant to end the pregancy if the woman can't take the delivery, or there's some sort of problem in the land that the new baby wouldn't really survive if it came anyways. 300 million babies killed for convenience, even if you locked the parents up for a week for assault, or whatever twisted thing you want to call baby killing, it's not going to help the situation.

Maybe you suspect I'm going to connect points based on your answer, so I'll just tell you I will so you can try to be as pro-murder as you want in your answer, but back to 1, what do you do with the baby -1mm stabber?

[muman613]

Tag,

You are getting a bit unraveled in this thread. I did not see anyone bring any 'kabbalist' sources except you... So why are you knocking them? You sometimes strike me as an odd bird who has not decided where he stands and is making it up as he goes along. You attack every rabbi and source you don't agree with and this is not the way Jews discuss the issues.

In most discourse we attempt to reconcile the sources. And as you posted yourself there is a great range of opinions on the topic.

By your own rationalist reposting, the great Rav Feinstein Zt'l considered abortion murder and this clearly supports LKZ's contention. You have only resorted to namecalling and lashon hara in order to defend your position.

But this entire topic is now becoming a personal issue.... I have posted the Halacha many times and it clearly involves whether the baby has begun to be born (the head comes out)... I have no problem accepting the view of the talmid Chachamim.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

muman- what are you talking about? I was saying that their is a Halahic way to deal with the issues and then their is the fundamentalist type of way(s). One example I brought are the "kabbalist" and "daas Torah" types of people and "argument" which are false. This is my views consistently. I am knocking those who aren't intellectually honest and just say that something is just because they said it is. Its fundamentalism and anti-rationalism as well.

 I was going to bring this video up earlier, but I see it probably won't help as I also see that you turned against me as well since I DARED to bring up the "Kabbalists" into this discussion as well.
 Here goes nothing.

[Israel Chai]

muman- what are you talking about? I was saying that their is a Halahic way to deal with the issues and then their is the fundamentalist type of way(s). One example I brought are the "kabbalist" and "daas Torah" types of people and "argument" which are false. This is my views consistently. I am knocking those who aren't intellectually honest and just say that something is just because they said it is. Its fundamentalism and anti-rationalism as well.

 I was going to bring this video up earlier, but I see it probably won't help as I also see that you turned against me as well since I DARED to bring up the "Kabbalists" into this discussion as well.
 Here goes nothing.

Every time, 2 hours of lashon hara, then a source showing Satmar who we already call rodef gets posted.

Still waiting to a response for my question.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 I answered your questions before. Once the head comes out, it is FULL life, anyone touching it is a murderer.
 Before head comes out if its a goy, he is liable for the death penalty, if its a Jew if inside the stomach even right before child birth not liable for the death penalty, MOST likely for damages (and probably monetary as well ) in wounding the mother (as extension of the limb) and/or other damages as well.

 1 cm, vs. 2 cm I don't know the exact. But again, their is a certain cut off. Once it is passed then it is full life, its life is just as = to the mother's. Before that it is not a full life even up to the time of child birth, therefore the mother's life takes precedence and it isn't murder.

[muman613]

This is so tiring tag... I wish you would just relax...

You are the one who injected the so called 'kabbalist' view (which I have no idea what you are talking about)... I brought the basic Halacha from the Torah (the issue of the pregnant woman being struck and miscarrying, and the issue of rodefim)... I have looked into the topic many times in the five years I have been involved with JTF. And I have commented every time that there is a permitted abortion (in the case of the safety of the mother).

I cannot understand what you are arguing about here. You support being allowed to kill the baby even if it is not a rodef? I don't know where that is supported by any sources. Accidentally causing a miscarriage is not the same as deliberately terminating the pregnancy...

If you care about this argument maybe you can clarify your position...

I don't see what Satmar has anything to do with this discussion either... Straw men?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman- no ,I was just responding to him putting aside the Rishonim and other sources (who yes had and have different clarifications and Psakim on this matter) and just putting himself into the picture and the opinion of a "peasant". That's what I meant. When we discuss issues, we have to stick to the sources and not like the circus that goes on with stupid, irrational people who just spew what they want without clarifying anything based on anything else. Then I interjected the fact that that is the ways of fundamentalists such as the Xtian's, the Kabbalists and those who espouse "Daas-Toyra" without ant real and substantial proof for anything. Their opinion, just is and that is all because after all they just say they majoc word "Daas Toyra" and that is all. This is fundamentalist crap, that's all.

[Israel Chai]

I answered your questions before. Once the head comes out, it is FULL life, anyone touching it is a murderer.
 Before head comes out if its a goy, he is liable for the death penalty, if its a Jew if inside the stomach even right before child birth not liable for the death penalty, MOST likely for damages (and probably monetary as well ) in wounding the mother (as extension of the limb) and/or other damages as well.

 1 cm, vs. 2 cm I don't know the exact. But again, their is a certain cut off. Once it is passed then it is full life, its life is just as = to the mother's. Before that it is not a full life even up to the time of child birth, therefore the mother's life takes precedence and it isn't murder.

OK, so if your wife was giving birth to your first son, and his head was 1 cm before you consider him alive, and I stab it in the head, say I have little money, because I do this with other people that think like you a lot, how much would you want the courts to fine me?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

OK, so if your wife was giving birth to your first son, and his head was 1 cm before you consider him alive, and I stab it in the head, say I have little money, because I do this with other people that think like you a lot, how much would you want the courts to fine me?

 Stop asking me stupid questions. I have no say in this, Halacha is Halacha and I am not a judge. On top of that how I am even supposed to know the amount exactly?
 If your wife was sitting and someone comes and chopps her leg off how much would you want to sue for. (its a silly question, don't answer it).
 + the baby wont be waiting half way on top of that. 

[Israel Chai]

Stop asking me stupid questions. I have no say in this, Halacha is Halacha and I am not a judge. On top of that how I am even supposed to know the amount exactly?
 If your wife was sitting and someone comes and chopps her leg off how much would you want to sue for. (its a silly question, don't answer it).
 + the baby wont be waiting half way on top of that.

OK, so the bottom line is that 10,000, 100,000 whatever, any amount of money, if someone stabs your baby who would have been out in two seconds, and gives you that as compensation, you're a happy Tag. Right?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

OK, so the bottom line is that 10,000, 100,000 whatever, any amount of money, if someone stabs your baby who would have been out in two seconds, and gives you that as compensation, you're a happy Tag. Right?

 Stupid question, what does being happy or not have to do with anything? Their is law and that is all. Its the same as if someone harmed your wife's leg, are you happy with 10,000 or 100,000 ? What does being happy have to do with anything. Anyway its a stupid argument to make, we are talking about what is the bottom line and what's it defined as.

 Dude I'm not continuing this convo.

[Israel Chai]

Stupid question, what does being happy or not have to do with anything? Their is law and that is all. Its the same as if someone harmed your wife's leg, are you happy with 10,000 or 100,000 ? What does being happy have to do with anything. Anyway its a stupid argument to make, we are talking about what is the bottom line and what's it defined as.

 Dude I'm not continuing this convo.

I don't think you understand the concept of a stupid question. Just because I called that one question you made that was a statement stupid, doesn't mean we have to go to war.

Yes, if someone harms my wife's leg, I'll be happy with 100,000, it will pay the bills, and it's about fair. "we are talking about what is the bottom line and what's it defined as. " Not sure if this is English, but first I'll say that the "bottom line" is defined as the minimum operating cash you need for your business to work. We don't just go into the simple meanings of Torah. If someone stabs a baby in the head when it's head isn't out enough for you, it's murder.