Author Topic: Abortion is murder  (Read 3582 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Abortion is murder
« on: March 14, 2014, 03:04:15 AM »
http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/03/10/this-is-so-hard-oh-god-its-so-hard-nurses-tell-of-aborted-babies-born-alive/

April 23, 2013 (LiveActionNews.org) – Often when a baby is born alive during an abortion procedure, the child is kept in the abortion clinic until he or she dies.

 Note: This is Part 3 of a series about how babies are born alive during abortion procedures:

Part I: ‘This baby is alive!’: the heartbreaking story of Baby Hope
Part II: ‘That’s not a baby. That’s an abortion!’: clinic workers describe babies born alive

April 23, 2013 (LiveActionNews.org) - Often when a baby is born alive during an abortion procedure, the child is kept in the abortion clinic until he or she dies. In rare cases, the abortionist himself takes action to kill the baby. But sometimes the baby is transferred to a hospital, where he can be given medical care. Unfortunately, it is the policy of many hospitals simply to allow these babies to die.

Nurse Kathleen Malloy, from Jacksonville, Florida, witnessed the death of one baby who was born after a saline abortion and transferred to her hospital. Melanie Green of Last Days Ministries quoted Malloy in her pamphlet “Children: Things We Throw Away?“ Malloy tells her story:

    I worked the 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. shift, and when we weren’t busy, I’d go out to help with the newborns. One night I saw a bassinet outside the nursery. There was a baby in this bassinet – a crying, perfectly formed baby – but there was a difference in this child. She had been scalded. She was the child of a saline abortion.

    This little girl looked as if she had been put in a pot of boiling water. No doctor, no nurse, no parent, to comfort this hurt, burned child. She was left alone to die in pain. They wouldn’t let her in the nursery – they didn’t even bother to cover her.

    I was ashamed of my profession that night! It’s hard to believe this can happen in our modern hospitals, but it does. It happens all the time. I thought a hospital was a place to heal the sick – not a place to kill.
    While doctors will go to extraordinary lengths to save the lives of premature babies such as these, babies born alive during abortions at the same age are left to die.

    I asked a nurse at another hospital what they do with their babies that are aborted by saline. Unlike my hospital, where the baby was left alone struggling for breath, their hospital puts the infant in a bucket and puts the lid on. Suffocation! Death by suffocation!

A saline abortion is performed by injecting the caustic saline solution into the amniotic fluid that surrounds an unborn baby in the second trimester. The baby breathes in the fluid, which burns her lungs and scorches her skin, causing her to die within several hours. The mother then goes through labor to give birth to the dead baby. This type of abortion is seldom performed today because it led to so many live births and because it was dangerous to women; it had the potential to cause severe damage to the woman’s body if the saline was injected into her bloodstream. A similar procedure where poison is injected into the baby’s heart, or, in some cases, the amniotic fluid, still takes place today and is used in the late second and third trimesters.

The baby Malloy watched die never had a name and never had a chance to live. In a similar situation, Gianna Jessen, who was also aborted by the saline method, was given medical care and survived. She is now a pro-life activist, and her website can be found here.

A 2002 article in The Journal of Clinical Nursing seems to indicate that nurses encounter babies born alive after abortions with some frequency. According to the article:

    In the case of late termination, the death of the fetus before delivery, though usual, is not inevitable except in rare cases of extreme physical abnormality[.] … At times the fetus will actually attempt to breathe or move its limbs, which makes the experience extremely distressing for nurses. Also, whereas the woman will probably go through this process once in her lifetime, nurses may go through it several times a year or even in the same week. (1)

Click "like" if you want to end abortion!

The article quotes author and lecturer Annette D. Huntington, BN, Ph.D. saying that abortion live births are a “regular occurrence.”

Another nurse who found herself in the terrible position of caring for an aborted baby told her story in the newsletter of Friendship Pregnancy Center (now called Women’s First Choice Center) in Morristown, New Jersey. Her story, which can be read in its entirety here, is heartbreaking. On the night the aborted baby came in, three premature babies from a nearby hospital were being taken care of. Two of the three were in danger of dying, and doctors struggled to save their lives. While the doctors were engaged in the struggle to help these two wanted babies, the aborted baby was brought in:

    The nurse from Labor and Delivery walked into our unit carrying a blanket and stating “This is a prostaglandin abortion. He has a heartbeat so we brought him over.” The baby was placed under a radiant warmer and I was told the rest of the facts. The gestational age of the baby was given to be 23 weeks by ultrasound. The mother had cancer and had received chemotherapy treatments before discovering that she was pregnant. The parents had been told that their baby would be horribly deformed because of the chemotherapy.

    I looked at the baby boy lying before me, and saw that from all appearances he was perfect. He had a good strong heartbeat. I could tell this without using a stethoscope because I could see his chest moving in sync with his heart rate. With a stethoscope I heard a heart pumping strongly. I look at his size and his skin — he definitely looked more mature than 23 weeks. He was weighed and I discovered that he was 900 grams, almost two pounds. This was almost twice the weight of some babies we have been able to save. A doctor was summoned. When she arrived the baby started moving his tiny arms and legs flailing. He started trying to gasp, but was unable to get air into his lungs. His whole body shuddered with his efforts to breathe. We were joined by a neonatalist and I pleaded with both doctors saying, “The baby is viable — look at his size, look at his skin — he looks much older than 23 weeks.”

    It was a horrible moment as each of us wrestled with our own ethical standards. I argued that we should make an attempt to resuscitate him, to get him breathing. The resident doctor told me, “This is an abortion. We have no right to interfere.” The specialist, who had the responsibility for the decision, was wringing his hands and quietly saying, “This is so hard. Oh, God, it’s so hard when it’s this close.” In the end, I lost. We were not going to try to resuscitate this baby. So, I did the only thing I could do. Dipping my index finger into sterile water and placing it on his head, I baptized the child. Then I wrapped him in blankets to keep him warm, and held him. These were the only measures I could take comfort the baby under the circumstances, no matter how much I wanted to do more. I held this little boy, who was still gasping for breath, trying to stay alive on his own. As the tears flowed down my face, I pray to God that he would take this child into his care, and that he would forgive me for my own part in his death. After a while, he stopped gasping. His heart continued to beat, but the beating became slower and weaker until it finally stopped. He was gone.

Ironically, all the while the nurse was holding the dying aborted child, doctors were struggling to save the life of another premature (but wanted) child in the very same room, less than five feet away. Sadly, this baby died as well – but she was given every possible medical treatment, while the aborted baby was completely ignored.

Another nurse, Joan S. Smith, told the following story:

    It was a night I’ll never forget. It was 11 pm and my colleague Karen and I “scrubbed in” at the beginning of our shift in the Special Care Nursery of a large teaching hospital….Without warning, a harried nurse rushed into the doorway.

    Her white uniform seemed out of place in the area of the hospital where only surgical scrubs are worn.

    “Here, take this,” she said, thrusting into my hands a small silver specimen pan covered with a paper towel.

    “What is it?” I asked, realizing by the look on her face that something was very wrong.

    “It’s an abortion at 22 weeks gestation, delivered on our floor. But it’s alive,” she explained, then turned on her heel and was gone. I removed the paper towel to see the perfectly formed body of a baby boy curled up in the cold metal pan….Karen came over to help. “This happens every so often,” she explained sadly. She had trained at the hospital and worked there for over 15 years.

    [After a doctor Joan called simply told her to do nothing but fill in the time of death for the baby] Stoking his tiny arm, I tried to sort out my jumble of emotions. I felt powerless, angry, and overwhelmed by sadness. How could our medical system be so full of ironies? Here I was surrounded by medical technology, which was of no avail to this tiny child. I wondered if the parents even were told that their son had been admitted to the hospital as a live birth with footprints taken, and identification number and band given, a physician notified of his birth- yet all of this merely an unpredicted complication of a routine abortion. It took nearly four hours until that tiny heart slowed to a stop. With tears in my eyes, I wrapped his body for the morgue. This was all of a life this child would ever know. He would never know the warmth of a mother’s embrace. No one would ever celebrate his birth. He would never even be given a name.

It is not unheard of for a baby born at 22-23 weeks to survive with medical treatment. Little Amillia Taylor was born at just 21 weeks and six days and weighed less than 10 ounces. She survived and is a healthy toddler today. Amillia’s mother actually had to lie to get the doctors to treat her baby – they had a policy of not treating children born before 23 weeks.

A German baby born at 21 weeks and five days also survived. Her story can be found here. The article also cites the example of a Canadian baby who was born before 22 weeks and survived.

Cases of late-term abortions blur the line between abortion and infanticide. Clearly, when a baby can survive on its own, even for short while, it becomes obvious that abortion is the killing of a human being. In reality, life is a continuum from conception to natural death – although babies aborted at later stages of development are more fully developed, abortion is murder from the very beginning. But stories of babies born alive and then denied medical care are heart-wrenching and a terrible indictment of our society, which permits such atrocities.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2014, 10:52:06 AM »
This is the most horrible thing and nobody in power is really doing anything to stop it.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2014, 10:54:29 AM »
 Didn't read the (long) article, but in Halacha this is NOT true, certainly not for Jews. Abortion can be wrong, abortion can sometimes even be right (when life on mother is in danger for example), but its NOT murder.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2014, 01:02:10 PM »
Didn't read the (long) article, but in Halacha this is NOT true, certainly not for Jews. Abortion can be wrong, abortion can sometimes even be right (when life on mother is in danger for example), but its NOT murder.

yeah it is.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5390
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2014, 01:45:54 PM »
Didn't read the (long) article, but in Halacha this is NOT true, certainly not for Jews. Abortion can be wrong, abortion can sometimes even be right (when life on mother is in danger for example), but its NOT murder.


It IS murder if the baby is born alive after the abortion and then they just let it die without trying to save it.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 07:13:18 PM by Binyamin Yisrael »

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2014, 02:02:41 PM »
Chaim has spoken about this several times. Abortion is only permitted in medical emergencies--real threats to the mother's life.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2014, 03:58:53 PM »
In cases that the baby is a threat to the mothers life it is permitted, actually commanded, to kill the baby to save the mothers life.

This is the one case where abortion is not murder.... The unborn baby is considered a Rodef (pursuer) who is coming to kill the mother...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2014, 04:01:53 PM »
The accidental killing of the baby is also not considered murder.

See the portion of Mishpatim (Exodus 21:22) and this law:

22. And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges' [orders].


It seems clearly that if the unborn baby dies due to this 'quarrel' then the man who struck her is only responsible for paying restitution...

See Rashis comments on this:

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?aid=15564&showrashi=true&p=complete

Quote
And should men quarrel: with one another, and [one] intended to strike his fellow, and [instead] struck a woman. [From Sanh. 79a]
    
וכי ינצו אנשים: זה עם זה, ונתכוין להכות את חבירו והכה את האשה:
and hit a pregnant woman: Heb. נְגִיפָה וְנָגְפוּ is only an expression of pushing and striking, as [in the following phrases:] “lest you strike ךְתִּגֹף your foot with a stone” (Ps. 91:12); “and before your feet are bruised (יִתְנְַָפוּ) ” (Jer. 13:16); “and a stone upon which to dash oneself (נֶגֶף) ” (Isa. 8:14).
    
ונגפו: אין נגיפה אלא לשון דחיפה והכאה, כמו (תהלים צא יב) פן תגוף באבן רגלך, (ירמיה יג טז) ובטרם יתנגפו רגליכם, (ישעיה ח יד) ולאבן נגף:
but there is no fatality: with the woman. -[From Sanh. 79a, Jonathan]
    
ולא יהיה אסון: באשה:
he shall surely be punished: to pay the value of the fetuses to the husband. They assess her [for] how much she was valued to be sold in the market, increasing her value because of her pregnancy. -[From B.K. 49a] I. e., the court figures how much she would be worth if sold as a pregnant slave when customers would take into account the prospect of the slaves she would bear, and her value as a slave without the pregnancy. The assailant must pay the difference between these two amounts. -[B.K. 48b, 49a]
    
ענוש יענש: לשלם דמי ולדות לבעל שמין אותה, כמה היתה ראויה למכר בשוק להעלות בדמיה בשביל הריונה:
he shall surely be punished: Heb. יֵעָנֵשׁ עָנוֹשׁ. They shall collect monetary payment from him, like וְעָנְשׁוּ [in the verse] “And they shall fine (וְעָנְשׁוּ) him one hundred [shekels of] silver” (Deut. 22:19). [From Mechilta]
    
ענוש יענש: יגבו ממון ממנו, כמו (דברים כב יט) וענשו אותו מאה כסף:
when the woman’s husband makes demands of him: When the husband sues him [the assailant] in court to levy upon him punishment for that.
    
כאשר ישית עליו וגו': כשיתבנעו הבעל בבית דין להשית עליו עונש על כך:
and he shall give [restitution]: The assailant [shall give] the value of the fetuses.
    
ונתן: המכה דמי ולדות:
according to the judges: Heb. בִּפְלִלִים, according to the verdict of the judges. -[From Mechilta]
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2014, 04:05:54 PM »
Now that I read the original article I must admit that killing a baby which has been born most certainly is murder. That is not abortion...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline zachor_ve_kavod

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2179
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2014, 04:31:29 PM »
I can't read the whole thing. It's just way too painful. When God destroyed Israel for the first time, it was partly because the Jews (the very people that God chose to make a covenant with, turned their backs on God and started keeping idols like the nations did. The worst thing they did, was just as the nations did, the Jews started sacrificing their innocent children to please the idols they had kept. I soud woulde lilne to explain to me what exactly is the difference between child sacrifice and abortion. The only thing I can come up with is that child sacrifice was done in God's name, whereas abortion is not. Despite that one difference, the result is pretty much the same: murdered children. What a nightmare.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2014, 04:34:30 PM »
When abortion becomes a form of birth control then it is evil... People having unprotected sex, underaged, and out of marriage is clearly a sin... And to top it off, being so selfish as to create a life only to destroy it, it is un-human.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2014, 05:15:09 PM »
This is what Chaim has said--a baby that is threatening the mother's life is a rodef, even if it is innocent, but in other circumstances it is murder.

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2014, 05:16:51 PM »
Didn't read the (long) article, but in Halacha this is NOT true, certainly not for Jews. Abortion can be wrong, abortion can sometimes even be right (when life on mother is in danger for example), but its NOT murder.

Maybe you don't understand because you didn't read the article. I suggest doing so before commenting because there's more to it than a medical procedure that results in a quick death for the baby. It's really not that long. I read it in a few minutes.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2014, 05:27:38 PM »


It IS murder if they baby is born alive after the abortion and then they just it die without trying to save it.

 True, once the baby is out (majority of head that is), it is 100% a human being. Anyone hurting it from this point on EVEN to save the mother's life is a murderer and is judged as such.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2014, 12:00:39 AM »
True, once the baby is out (majority of head that is), it is 100% a human being. Anyone hurting it from this point on EVEN to save the mother's life is a murderer and is judged as such.

When you get a the top of the head it's ok to stab it yay. You're messed up in the head if you think that. How would you kill it purposefully with the tip of its head out that's not murder?
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2014, 12:06:01 AM »
When you get a the top of the head it's ok to stab it yay. You're messed up in the head if you think that. How would you kill it purposefully with the tip of its head out that's not murder?

 Not sure what you meant, but I was saying that a baby is defined as fully human once the majority of the head it out. At that point it would be considered murder to abort the baby even to save the life of the mother. Right before that it still has status of a fetus and it can, actually should be aborted if and when the life of the mother is in danger.

 What did I say that seems crazy to you? Its a serious questions discussed in the Talmudh and poskim. This is the Halacha BY ALL opinions (And I challenge you to bring an opinion stating otherwise).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2014, 12:20:10 AM »
Not sure what you meant, but I was saying that a baby is defined as fully human once the majority of the head it out. At that point it would be considered murder to abort the baby even to save the life of the mother. Right before that it still has status of a fetus and it can, actually should be aborted if and when the life of the mother is in danger.

 What did I say that seems crazy to you? Its a serious questions discussed in the Talmudh and poskim. This is the Halacha BY ALL opinions (And I challenge you to bring an opinion stating otherwise).

When a minority of the head is out, and you kill it for any reason, you're a murderer.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2014, 08:01:40 AM »
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2014, 10:33:25 AM »
When a minority of the head is out, and you kill it for any reason, you're a murderer.

 According to your "logic", not according to the (true) Hachamim. The Talmudhim, the Rishonim and the poskim. In fact at that stage if you don't abort it and the mother dies as a result, YOU'RE the MURDERER.

 And that picture you brought is just stupid and wrong, its another one of those "junk science" crap that ignoramuses say and promote. Not Jermaine to the argument, AT ALL. If the Hachamim said about the scenario of the mother's life being in danger, even a Safek (doubt) of it, the meant and mean it. Its not murder, no matter which way you try to define it and no matter how much you repeat either junk "science" or Halahically invalid LIES.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2014, 11:35:40 AM »
LKZ you want a good example of Junk "Science", here goes. 

.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2014, 05:04:44 PM »
According to your "logic", not according to the (true) Hachamim. The Talmudhim, the Rishonim and the poskim. In fact at that stage if you don't abort it and the mother dies as a result, YOU'RE the MURDERER.

 And that picture you brought is just stupid and wrong, its another one of those "junk science" crap that ignoramuses say and promote. Not Jermaine to the argument, AT ALL. If the Hachamim said about the scenario of the mother's life being in danger, even a Safek (doubt) of it, the meant and mean it. Its not murder, no matter which way you try to define it and no matter how much you repeat either junk "science" or Halahically invalid LIES.

You're slipping hard. If you live in the bronze age, mothers die commonly in birth, so you have to abort babies now and then. With technology it's almost never necessary. That's to prove the point that all abortion is murder today, and if the tip of your baby's head is sticking out of your wife, and achmed from your retard video stabs it, he's a murderer.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2014, 05:12:14 PM »
LKZ,

I just did some quick research here and it appears your argument is failing... You suggest that no mothers are dying in childbirth, but according to statistics they are...

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/why-are-so-many-u-s-women-dying-during-childbirth/article_dd916b4b-38f0-5bae-ba42-ddee636e4cf4.html

Quote
Why are so many U.S. women dying during childbirth?
April 07, 2013 2:45 pm

Kristin Marlowe was seven months pregnant and admitted for a small placental tear at Mercy Hospital in Springfield, Mo., when she began to complain of a headache. An hour later, she stopped breathing. Strong, healthy and only 20 years old — she died of a stroke.

Her son, Trennon, was delivered by emergency C-section and survived.

“We knew we were going to spend our life together,” said her husband, Nick Marlowe, 22, still reeling from her death last August. “I can tell you right now, if it wasn’t for my kid, I wouldn’t be here.”

The hospital staff is also struggling for answers. Doctors are unsure how a young woman with no risks or obvious signs quickly took such a tragic turn. “How did this happen?” said obstetrics director Dr. David Redfern. “Why did this happen?’

The maternal death rate in the U.S. is creeping upward — to more than double what it was 25 years ago. Systems identifying deaths have improved, so how much the increase can be attributed to risk is uncertain. But experts agree maternal deaths are no longer declining, are underestimated, largely preventable and disproportionately affect certain groups.

“We have not seen a decrease in maternal mortality, and that is worrisome,” said Dr. George Saade, director of maternal-fetal medicine at University of Texas Medical Branch. He said black women were three to four times more likely than white women to die from pregnancy. “These two things are very concerning, particularly in a developed country like the U.S.”
.
.
.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2014, 05:14:21 PM »
http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternalinfanthealth/pregnancy-relatedmortality.htm

Pregnancy-Related Deaths

The death of a woman during pregnancy, at delivery, or soon after delivery is a tragedy for her family and for society as a whole. Sadly, about 650 women die each year in the United States as a result of pregnancy or delivery complications.

During pregnancy, a woman's body goes through many changes. These changes are entrirely normal, but may become very important in case there are complications or problems. A pregnancy-related death is defined as the death of a woman during pregnancy or within one year of the end of pregnancy from a pregnancy complication, a chain of events initiated by pregnancy, or the aggravation of an unrelated condition by the physiologic effects of pregnancy.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2014, 05:23:16 PM »
LKZ,

I just did some quick research here and it appears your argument is failing... You suggest that no mothers are dying in childbirth, but according to statistics they are...

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/why-are-so-many-u-s-women-dying-during-childbirth/article_dd916b4b-38f0-5bae-ba42-ddee636e4cf4.html

The picture and doctor claim no such thing. Some mothers would die one way or another, and some mothers it wasn't detectable or obvious that the pregnancy would kill them, more develop unexpected complications, and all of those have nothing to do with the argument, the argument is that is is extremely rare that a baby needs to be aborted to save a mother's life.

It's OK to get an abortion to save a life, but that almost never comes up in any circumstance, and the only other argument for abortion is from Tag, that we can stab our babies in the head when the tip is sticking out and it's not murder, and is retarded, so other than that tiny exception to the RULE, all abortion is murder.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Abortion is murder
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2014, 05:40:44 PM »
The picture and doctor claim no such thing. Some mothers would die one way or another, and some mothers it wasn't detectable or obvious that the pregnancy would kill them, more develop unexpected complications, and all of those have nothing to do with the argument, the argument is that is is extremely rare that a baby needs to be aborted to save a mother's life.

It's OK to get an abortion to save a life, but that almost never comes up in any circumstance, and the only other argument for abortion is from Tag, that we can stab our babies in the head when the tip is sticking out and it's not murder, and is retarded, so other than that tiny exception to the RULE, all abortion is murder.

 Your going to go with some picture over statistics? And its a government agency on top of that. + we hear of some cases in the news as well.

 Now besides life and death, even a Safek of it (of which their is no argument on from any of the poskim, up to the point of birth it isn't only Muttar-allowed, its a MUST) if on the other hand their is abortion not for the life risk of the mother it still doesn't = murder, certainly not for Jews. It is wrong in many cases (can even be considered a grave sin) but its not murder. If you define it as murder, especially in the Halahic sense, then bring something to back up your argument. 
 + Certainly if you would consider it murder then the mother and/or doctor would be liable for the death penalty under Beit Din. No such thing exists in this case.
 I think that their can be a confusion stemming from goyim doing it and it thus being equated with murder, BUT perhaps it can be equated with theft of which the punishment is the same.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.