Author Topic: To Recline Or Not To Recline-That Is The Question  (Read 9626 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: To Recline Or Not To Recline-That Is The Question
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2014, 05:09:44 PM »
The problem with arms on the chair is when you recline to the left the arm sticks in your side...

I supposed the best thing to have is some kind of a couch to recline on..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: To Recline Or Not To Recline-That Is The Question
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2014, 05:11:14 PM »
We do not say the question concerning the meat being roasted today because we don't have the Korban Pesach today...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: To Recline Or Not To Recline-That Is The Question
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2014, 05:12:29 PM »
see this discussion of why the questions are what they are today:


http://www.torah.org/learning/yomtov/pesach/5760/vol6no03.html

The Passover Hagadah

The Missing Question and Freedom
by Rabbi Yehudah Prero

One of the highlights for children at the Seder is the recitation of Mah Nishtaneh, the Four Questions. The Four Questions have their origin in a Mishna. The Mishna (Pesachim 116a) states: His father instructs him [to ask]: 'Why is this night different from all [other] nights? For on all [other] nights we eat leavened and unleavened bread, whereas on this night [we eat] only leavened bread; On all other nights we eat all kinds of herbs, but on this night we eat bitter herbs; On all other nights we eat meat roasted, stewed or boiled, but on this night, roast only; On all other nights we dip once, but on this night we dip twice.'

When reading this text, one will notice that the four questions in the Mishna are not the four questions we ask at the Seder. During the existence of the Bais Hamikdosh, the Holy Temple, the nation of Israel used to consume the Korban Pesach, the special Paschal offering. The Korban Pesach could only be eaten roasted. It could not be stewed nor boiled. It is for this reason that during the time of the Bais Hamikdosh, the child asked a question about how the offering was eaten. Nowadays, when we do not eat the Korban Pesach, there is obviously no reason for a child to ask a question about something he does not observe.

The Satmar Rebbe, however, is troubled by the question that we do ask. Instead of the question about the Korban Pesach, the child asks: On all other nights, we eat both sitting up straight and reclining, yet on this night we eat while reclining. This difference in how we conduct ourselves during the meal is a difference that is not solely apparent nowadays. At the time of the existence of the Temple, people ate their Pesach meal and Korban reclining as well. Granted, we know why we no longer ask the question concerning the preparation of the Korban. However, why does the Mishna not include the question concerning reclining during the meal?

The Satmar Rebbe explains that reclining during the meal is an act of nobility. It is an act in which a free person, who rules over his domain, partakes. We, therefore, recline during the Seder to remember the freedom we experienced when we left Egypt. Reclining recalls the great miracles that G-d performed for us in conjunction with our freedom. At the time of the existence of the Bais Hamikdosh, when the nation of Israel governed over themselves, there was no need to detail what freedom means. There was no reason to have an in depth discussion about liberty. Freedom was part and parcel of the life of the members of the nation of Israel. They had the Bais Hamikdosh, and they were able to bring Korbanos, sacrificial offerings. The nation vividly felt freedom. Therefore, the mere fact that people ate reclining at the Seder was enough to remind people that they were celebrating freedom. No question that would lead to deep discussion about freedom was needed. Hence, the Mishna contains no question concerning reclining.

However, nowadays, when we are in exile, a question about why we recline is more than appropriate. Why, the child asks, do we recline? What good did the freedom of our forefathers do for us? We are currently sitting in exile, with no Temple, no Korban. Why do we bother commemorating a freedom that seemingly has no relevance to our lives, in this day and age?

The answer, we recite in the following passage of Avadim HaYinu. "If G-d had not taken us out of Egypt, we, our children, and their children would still be enslaved to Pharaoh in Egypt." The Ohr HaChayim explains that during the time they were enslaved in Egypt, the nation of Israel experienced a massive spiritual decline. They sunk so low that there was almost no hope of recovery. The nation barely missed this threshold. The reason why they sunk so low was because they had not yet received the Torah. Once the nation was redeemed, they were given the Torah, which has since then acted as a spiritual booster. It is now impossible to sink so low that we would no longer be worthy to be G-d's people. Had G-d not liberated our forefathers, not just by physically taking them out of slavery in Egypt, but by giving them spiritual freedom when they were presented with the Torah, we could have been enslaved to the physical drudgery of this world. Had we not tasted freedom in the days of our ancestors, we would have no chance at obtaining freedom in this day and age. A commemoration of a freedom first tasted long ago is needed, and we therefore recline.

The Satmar Rebbe is sending us a clear lesson. We may live in democratic societies. We may have prosperity. We may have the ability to practice our religion freely. Yet, we are not free. We are still in exile. We still lack the spiritual setting we need to be truly free. We must have a reminder of what freedom is, because we have never experienced it.

L'Shana Ha'Ba'ah B'Yerushalayim - Next Year in Jerusalem - as a free nation!
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: To Recline Or Not To Recline-That Is The Question
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2014, 05:15:39 PM »
So Tag, in your opinion, are you disagreeing with Rambam?

 I don't like these types of "points" being made. I can flip the argument and ask- are you disagreeing with the questions of the Bavli and Yerushalmi (which can and is an even greater argument).
 I don't see this as being a disagreement with the Rambam at all. Why? Because what he said was not set. As wasn't what the Talmudhim (both of them in this case) either because here we see the Rambam stating otherwise himself. These questions are here to arouse curiosity in the kids. And that is why they are made. In general the kids are to be encouraged to ask many questions as well because this is the learning experience for them specifically (and all of us as well).
 
 Now back to the Rambam and Hasiba. Its not wrong that he said to do so, IN HIS GENERATION at least because doing so was the way that nobility and important people ate. (and what was mentioned earlier by Dan about poor people having to do so) they had to do so at this meal as well because they ALSO had to show that they are free men and nobility. We all are, being the "children of Hashem" and at the "banquet" celebrating our Freedom from Slavery. One of the ways we conveyed this freedom was by doing Hasiba. This was all and well and normal and noble at the time AND PLACE (middle east) of the Rambam. Others around his time in societies such as European societies that had tables conveyed the act of eating like nobility by eating normally in chairs and tables. THAT was the way to convey nobility and was said to be done in such a manner.
 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

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Re: To Recline Or Not To Recline-That Is The Question
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2014, 04:53:07 PM »
Raavia is the Rishon who holds one does not need to recline in our times.
The following audio lecture presents arguments for and against Raavia's view
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/732891/Rabbi_Jesse_Horn/Reclining_on_Pesach_-_Objective_or_Subjective


Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: To Recline Or Not To Recline-That Is The Question
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2014, 05:33:24 PM »
Raavia is the Rishon who holds one does not need to recline in our times.
The following audio lecture presents arguments for and against Raavia's view
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/732891/Rabbi_Jesse_Horn/Reclining_on_Pesach_-_Objective_or_Subjective

 Not the only Rishon. Your wording can be mis-understood that he was the only one vs. everyone else.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

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Re: To Recline Or Not To Recline-That Is The Question
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2014, 07:04:48 AM »
Quote from Tag-MehirTzedek

 
Quote
Not the only Rishon. Your wording can be mis-understood that he was the only one vs. everyone else.
He is certainly portrayed as the minority viewpoint by the Achronim. Although the Rama (Rabbi Moshe Isserlis) does say that the custom of women (not men) is to rely on Raavia, in order to avoid the need to recline. There are also certain situations where men rely on Raavia when they forgot by mistake to recline. I do not wish at this time to state for which types of mistakes we rely after the fact on Raavia and when no.
 Finally, I have not heard a reason why there should be a difference between women and men on this issue of reclining even though this is the custom of most Ashkenazim. I do not know the Sephardic custom.

Offline edu

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Re: To Recline Or Not To Recline-That Is The Question
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2014, 10:16:41 AM »
Quote from Dan Ben Noah
Quote
The Mishneh Torah says women are not required to recline if I'm not mistaking.
Rambam in Hilchot Chametz Umatza chapter 7
says important women do need to recline
 אַפִלּוּ עָנִי שֶׁבְּיִשְׂרָאֵל, לֹא יֹאכַל עַד שֶׁיָּסֵב.  אִשָּׁה אֵינָהּ צְרִיכָה הֲסִבָּה; וְאִם אִשָּׁה חֲשׁוּבָה הִיא, צְרִיכָה הֲסִבָּה.
Text of Rambam copied from http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3507n.htm

Rama says all our women have the status of important women. The reason though they don't recline is that they rely on Raavia.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: To Recline Or Not To Recline-That Is The Question
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2014, 10:30:20 AM »
Sefardi- for women it is definitely less then for Askenasim. Mainly modesty issues.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.