To Recline Or Not To Recline-That Is The Question

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

[muman613]

We Recline.... I believe it comes from the Talmud...

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/580,457/Why-do-we-recline-to-our-left-side-during-the-seder.html

Well, the reason we recline altogether is because such was the manner of kings. The aristocratic way to recline is on the left side. In the words of the Talmud (Pesachim 108a): “Lying on one’s back [or stomach, according to Rambam’s translation; cf. Tosafot] does not constitute reclining; and reclining on one’s right side does not constitute reclining.”

Rashbam explains that the aristocrats reclined on the left so as to leave the right hand free for eating purposes.

The Talmud adds another reason (though it is not clear whether this refers to lying on one’s back or on one’s right—see Rashi and Rashbam respectively): “Perhaps the windpipe will precede the esophagus in receiving the food and some danger will come of it.”

From a Kabbalistic perspective perhaps it can be suggested that leaning on the left side represents the fact that on the night of Passover, even the “left side,” which in Kabbalah is associated with darkness and death, can be elevated. (This idea is stated regarding the fact that the Menorah is lit on the left side of the door and that the Tefillin are worn on the left arm.)

Why would one not recline?

[muman613]

Could you tell why anyone would not recline...

http://www.torahtots.com/holidays/pesach/pesseder.htm


We are required to lean to our left side, during the drinking of the wine and eating of the matza, as a symbol of freedom. Like the olden days, when rich people used to lounge on pillows and special couches.
We are supposed to act in a way that shows majesty and freedom - therefore, each person's cup is filled by someone else.

As they represent slavery, we do not lean when we eat the maror (bitter herbs).

Please summarize what this rabbi is saying as I dont have time to listen to this... It seems odd to me that anyone (and I have seen no evidence any Rabbi has suggested that we not recline) would suggest this.

[muman613]

http://ohr.edu/762

Dear Rabbi,

When and why did the tradition of reclining at the Passover meal begin? In the book of Exodus it seems that the people were instructed for all time to eat the Passover meal with sandals on their feet and staffs in hand as if ready to move on. So why do we lean, which seems to indicate a lack of readiness to move on?

Dear Roger H.,

Leaning symbolizes freedom and aristocracy. It is first recorded in the Mishnah (c. 200 CE), but dates back much farther than that. Rather than being a tradition, reclining while eating the matzah and drinking the four cups of wine is a halacha. In fact, in certain circumstances, one does not fulfill the mitzvah if one ate matzah or drank wine without reclining.

The reason why we recline, whereas the Jews in Egypt were commanded to "eat on the run", is because they were indeed getting ready to leave Egypt. But that command was specific for those people and for that year alone. We, however, intentionally recline to demonstrate our being free to serve G-d and to help us really feel it.

Sources:

Pesachim 99b, 108a; Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 472.

[muman613]

http://www.torah.org/features/holydays/passover/pesacheat.html
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And how are these foods to be eaten? Reclining, in the olden manner of nobility. (Except for the marror, which is exclusively representative of the bitterness of slavery.) In fact, the reclining is so important, it is seen to be an integral part of the mitzvah, and if the matzot and wine are taken without reclining, you may have to do it again.
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[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Could you tell why anyone would not recline...

Please summarize what this rabbi is saying as I dont have time to listen to this... It seems odd to me that anyone (and I have seen no evidence any Rabbi has suggested that we not recline) would suggest this.

Naa, you would have to watch (or listen) to the video. In the future my personal advice to you is to listen to a video or audio, or read what was posted before commenting. Just a suggestion. All the info is given in it (their is even longer audio shiur on this subject, but this video will suffice).
 
 And their are also many, especially Askenasi Rishonim who already say not to do so, they are brought down in the video as well. Just listen in, you would enjoy it.
 Lastly what the vast majority of people do today of "reclining" is not the Haseba mentioned. So either way no one (except very very few "Rambamists") actually do Hasiba. The question also is, is it correct to even do that Hasiba or not (and it is addressed in the video).

[muman613]

Naa, you would have to watch (or listen) to the video. In the future my personal advice to you is to listen to a video or audio, or read what was posted before commenting. Just a suggestion. All the info is given in it (their is even longer audio shiur on this subject, but this video will suffice).
 
 And their are also many, especially Askenasi Rishonim who already say not to do so, they are brought down in the video as well. Just listen in, you would enjoy it.
 Lastly what the vast majority of people do today of "reclining" is not the Haseba mentioned. So either way no one (except very very few "Rambamists") actually do Hasiba. The question also is, is it correct to even do that Hasiba or not (and it is addressed in the video).

Could you provide me with a Rishonim's name who suggest we should not. I have done a search and cannot find any objection to this..

I will watch the video when I get home.. After 9pm tonight.


According to this, the Rambam says that we should recline:

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/1707/jewish/Reclining.htm

When drinking the four cups of wine, and eating the matzot, the korech sandwich, and the afikoman, one is required to recline on a couch, an armchair, or on pillows. This is how royalty and nobility used to eat and on this night the people of Israel are entitled to conduct themselves like royalty.

Maimonides writes: One is required to see himself as if he had just now left Egyptian slavery. Hence, when a person eats on this night, he is required to eat and drink while reclining, as a sign of freedom.

In his commentary to the Mishnah in Pesachim, Maimonides adds: In the manner that kings and important people eat.

When reclining, one should lean to the left, eating and drinking with the right hand. Even one who is left-handed should follow this practice.

[muman613]

I am interested in why some would not want to recline on pesach.... But in Rambams Mishne Torah the command to eat while reclining appears in Chapter 7 of Chometz U'Matzah...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/937306/jewish/Chometz-UMatzah-Chapter-Seven.htm

Halacha 7
Therefore, when a person feasts on this night, he must eat and drink while he is reclining in the manner of free men. Each and every one, both men and women, must drink four cups of wine on this night. [This number] should not be reduced. Even a poor person who is sustained by charity should not have fewer than four cups. The size of each of these cups should be a quarter [of a log].

Commentary Halacha
Therefore, when a person feasts on this night -- The meal served at the Seder should be festive. The Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 472:2, states that a person should set the table with the most attractive utensils he can afford.

he must eat and drink -- The Talmud mentions two practices as characteristic of freedom: reclining and drinking four cups of wine. The Rambam mentions the general principles applying to these obligations in this halachah, and explains each of the practices in particular in the following halachot.

while he is reclining -- on couches

in the manner of free men -- In his commentary on the Mishnah (Pesachim 10:1), the Rambam relates that this was the practice of "kings and great people."

The commentaries quote the Rambam's expression as a proof that reclining (הסיבה) is not merely a particular law, describing the manner in which the matzah and the four cups of wine must be eaten and drunk, but rather a unique requirement on its own. Therefore, as explained in the following halachah, it is praiseworthy for a person to eat the entire Seder meal while reclining.

each and every one -- Even a person who has difficulty drinking wine must observe this practice. Nedarim 49b relates that Rabbi Yehudah bar Illai would have to bind his sides from Pesach to Shavuot because of the aftereffects of the four cups of wine he drank at the Seder. Nevertheless, each year he fulfilled the mitzvah.

both men and women -- Generally, woman are not bound to fulfill any mitzvot that have a specific time limitation. However, an exception to this principle is made regarding the mitzvot associated with the Seder night. Since the women had a full share in the miracles of the Exodus - indeed, Sotah 11b states that the redemption came about because of their merit - they must participate fully in the commemoration of the Exodus (Pesachim 108b).

It is curious that the Rambam does not mention whether wine should be given to children below Bar-Mitzvah age. Many authorities maintain that it is unnecessary for the Rambam to mention this fact, for we can assume that the all-encompassing obligation to educate one's children in Torah practice applies in this regard as well. (See Shulchan Aruch 472:15 and Shulchan Aruch HaRav 472:25)

Other commentaries, however, maintain that the omission is significant. They note that in Hilchot De'ot 4:12, the Rambam writes that wine is harmful to young children. Hence, they maintain, the Rabbis would not require a father to train his children in Torah practice at the expense of their health.

must drink four -- The Jerusalem Talmud, Pesachim 10:1 explains that these four cups of wine are associated with the four promises of redemption given to the Jews in Egypt (Exodus 6:6-7). Alternatively, it is suggested that they refer to:

the four cups mentioned in the narrative of Pharaoh's butler;

the four exiles in which the Jews will suffer;

the four cups of retribution God will force the gentiles to drink in the Messianic age; and,

the four cups of consolation He will offer to the Jews after their redemption.

In Halachah 8:10, the Rambam also mentions a fifth cup of wine. See the commentary on that halachah.

cups of wine -- Most halachic authorities require that this wine have some alcoholic content. Hence, grape juice alone should not be used.

on this night. [This number] should not be reduced -- However, during certain portions of the Seder, it is possible to drink additional cups of wine.

even a poor person who is sustained by charity should not have fewer than four cups. -- Just as the Jewish community must supply him with his physical needs, they must also provide him with the necessities required to fulfill his halachic obligations.

The size of each of these cups -- i.e., the amount of liquid they must contain

should be a quarter [of a log] -- There is some controversy about the conversion of that figure into modern measure. The most commonly accepted figure is 3.35 fluid ounces. Some authorities require even larger cups.

Halacha 8
Even one of Israel's poor should not eat until he [can] recline. A woman need not recline. If she is an important woman, she must recline. [Even] a son in the presence of his father or an attendant in the presence of his master must recline. However, a student before his teacher should not recline unless his teacher grants him permission.

Reclining on one's right side is not considered reclining. Neither is reclining on one's back or forwards.

When must one recline? when eating the כזית of matzah and when drinking these four cups of wine. While eating and drinking at other times: if one reclines, it is praiseworthy; if not, there is no requirement.

Commentary Halacha
Even one of Israel's poor should not eat until he [can] recline. -- The word "even" is used to include people who one would presume would not be obligated. Tosefot, Pesachim 99b, explains that it obligates even a poor person who cannot afford a couch or pillows to lean on. He also must try to recline to the best of his ability - e.g., leaning on a colleague's side. See Magen Avraham, Orach Chayim 472:3.

A woman need not recline. -- Rabbenu Manoach and other commentators explain that this refers only to a woman in the presence of her husband. The Sh'eltot d'Rav Achai (Tzav 77) states that it applies to all women, since women do not generally recline.

If she is an important woman, she must recline. -- The Ramah, Orach Chayim 472:4, and other Ashkenazic authorities write: "All our women are considered important. Nevertheless, it is not customary for them to recline."

[Even] a son in the presence of his father or an attendant in the presence of his master must recline. -- A son is obligated to honor his father, and thus it would not be respectful to recline in his presence. However, we may assume that the father foregoes his honor in this regard. This applies even if the father is also his tutor in Torah studies.

Though an attendant is bound to fulfill the duties required of him by his master, the obligations required of him by God take precedence.

However, a student before his teacher -- i.e., one who teaches him Torah

should not recline -- for a person's fear of his teacher must parallel his fear of God (Pesachim 22b).

unless his teacher grants him permission. -- Should he desire to do so, a teacher may forego the honor due him. In such an instance, a student must recline.

Reclining on one's right side is not considered reclining. -- This refers to a right-handed person. Since he must eat with his right hand, it would be uncomfortable for him to recline on that side (Rashbam, Pesachim 108a). Alternatively, this refers to all people for reclining in this manner is dangerous, lest the food go down the windpipe rather than the esophagus (Ramah 472:3).

Neither is reclining on one's back or forwards. -- Pesachim 108a explains that פרקדן is not considered as a desirable manner of reclining. Most commentaries explain that refers only to leaning on one's back. However, even leaning forward is not acceptable, since this is not a comfortable manner of eating and cannot be regarded as a symbol of freedom and liberation.

When must one recline? when eating the כזית of matzah -- At present, this obligation applies also to eating the korech (sandwich of matzah and maror) and the afikoman.

and when drinking these four cups of wine. -- for these were ordained particularly to celebrate the redemption from Egypt.

The Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 472:7, writes that a person who ate matzah or drank from the four cups of wine without reclining is not considered to have fulfilled his obligation and must repeat the act.

The Ramah qualifies this law, explaining that since, in the Ashkenazic community, certain opinions do not require reclining at present, one need not drink another cup of wine if the third and fourth cups of wine were drunk without reclining. However, he suggests that a person repeat the eating of matzah and the drinking of the first two cups of wine if they were consumed without reclining. The Magen Avraham (and the subsequent authorities) declare that the drinking of the first cup should also not be repeated.

While eating and drinking at other times -- during the Seder meal

if one reclines, it is praiseworthy -- for, as mentioned in the previous halachah, reclining is one of the signs of freedom and liberation, and thus, has an importance of its own, independent of its connection to the eating of matzah and the drinking of the four cups of wine.

if not, there is no requirement. -- for, in particular, reclining was obligated only for those acts that were specifically instituted as symbols of our liberation. One should not recline while eating the maror, for it was ordained as a remembrance of our people's oppression and not of their liberation (Pesachim 108a).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Just because reclining is not a part of modern culture doesn't mean the Jews should stop doing this at Passover.  He mentioned in the video that poor people didn't have to have special furniture to be able to recline and this was acceptable.  If this is true, they were not truly reclining like nobility but it was still acceptable to perform the mitzvah.  So therefore people who recline today don't have to do so exactly like Greco-Romans did with the special furniture, as long as they are reclining in a way that is distinguishing this meal from other meals.  The Mishneh Torah does not really specify the form of reclining other than the fact that you recline on your left side.

 No, I think the translation is wrong. Hasiba isn't "reclining". What most people do today is not Hasiba. Its just leaning to the side and eating backwards. It shows no sign of freedom and nobility and in fact the opposite as it isn't even comfortable.
 Very very few people actually do Hasiba.
 
- The question is why the Rambam says to do it and why many Askenais Rishonim already say not to- that is because of the way people ate at their respective societies. At the time of the Rambam doing Hasiba was a normal way of eating especially for the "higher ups" of society, while in Europe people ate in chairs and such. That is why the Hachamim commenting on this said to eat in chairs and not to do Hasiba.
 
  This is a Rabbinic decree (maybe even less, maybe can call it a custom) with a reason given- to show freedom and act like royalty. That being said leaning or tilting to the left side (as is commonly done today) isn't any act of nobility, nor does it show that one is free. If anything it is the opposite.
Doing Hasiba properly, the way it was done beforehand and the way that few (Rambamists) do is still not necessary as this is not a way to get across the message of nobility and freedom and such today.
 Today we can and should sit in nice, comfortable chairs that we have. Perhaps include a pillow and get more comfortable. But that's about it.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

This is the longer audio shiur (from a few years ago).

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/35-hagim/413-do-not-lean-on-seder-night

[Sveta]

So, what are we supposed to do then? Some people go to community seders where everyone reclines.

[muman613]

Sorry Tag,

I don't think this is going to change anyones tradition. I don't think I'm going to watch it either.

This Rabbi, while he may be intelligent, seems to find machloket where there is no need for it. He think's that his opinion is the only one even when it runs against the majority opinion. For this reason I discount his findings.

Rambam stated the custom, and it is what my family has done since I was a child, and I will continue to do it.

Please tell me which Rishonim stated we don't recline on Pesach?

[edu]

I recline (according to the normal Ashkenazic definition of reclining) because the Mishna Brura says men should recline.

[Israel Chai]

I did it last year, not too comfortable... maybe there's an argument here, idk.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 I don't think I'm going to watch it either.

Please tell me which Rishonim stated we don't recline on Pesach?

Rambam stated the custom, and it is what my family has done since I was a child, and I will continue to do it.
 

 I'm not going to tell you. If you can comment on something without watching or knowing it first (thus making a preconceived opinion about it) then their is nothing to discuss with you about it. If you want to know you should watch it. Otherwise we have nothing to discuss.

 - I can bet you for sure you (as almost everyone else) don't do what the Rambam stated to do which is Hasiba and not the "reclining" or tilting that you do.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

So, what are we supposed to do then? Some people go to community seders where everyone reclines.

  Not sure about it if it is public. I personally would probably quickly recline just to get it over with if it was in public and I would see that the people would be offended or would be stuck up about it. At my home and even when I had guests I didn't and don't. When asked, I explained that its not really needed but if they want to they certainly can do so I don't mind. I also offered pillows in advance and that is what is done by some. Just get comfortable, that is the point.
 
 This is one of the reasons why I (personally) don't and wouldn't go to a restaurant for the Seder (their are also other reasons as well). The other reason being the Kzait issue, and other reasons as well. But I do see it being great for some (or many perhaps) other people who need the Seder and for any reason either can't conduct it themselves or can conduct it but going to a Seder that is public being a better experience for them (or issues with preparing and such).
 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

so I don't see how making proper accommodations in your house for reclining at Passover would be an issue.

  Do you see the picture in the video? You expect people to know how to eat like that? It's abnormal and would be very hard, possibly uncomfortable for people in today's age to eat like that. AND it is not the way that nobility today eats.
 Their are more then enough Rishonim who already from years ago saw that this is no longer relevant.

[Israel Chai]

I Googled reclining at Passover on Google images and there are plenty of pictures of people sitting around reclining and some are eating around coffee tables (or low makeshift tables) and it looks like they are just making a party out of it.  It really doesn't look like it's that hard to do.  As I said before, if there was an exception made for poor people regarding eating like nobility, there can be an exception for modern people.  Here "nobility" eats however they want, so this can still be done today.  I don't see how this is such an issue.

lol everything is an issue.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I just did as well. Most of them are not Hasiba.

https://www.google.com/search?q=reclining+at+Passover&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=DVJIU8fFIdbLsAT97oG4DQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=651


This is what most people do. This resembles nothing close to being and acting like Free men.
 http://bysheandhim.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/p1010206.jpg
 

[muman613]

I suppose tag doesn't say 'Ma Nishtana', or at least not the fourth question...




She-be-chol ha-leilot ah-nu oh-chlin bayn yosh-vin
u-vain m-subin, ha-laila ha-zeh ku-lahnu m-subin?

On all other nights we eat either sitting or leaning,
why do we lean on a pillow tonight?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  Actually that part isn't part of the Haggadah (in reality). It starts a little later. ( I don't recall exactly which part though).
   Also in Bavel and Eress Yisrael different questions were asked.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman- (I bumped into this) Talmud Yerushalmi (10:4) lists only three questions
 The Bavli lists 4, and it doesn't talk about reclining either. Rambam lists 5 and mentions reclining.

 (see if this works, if it does it starts from page 17, just in case it doesn't already take you there).
 http://books.google.com/books?id=RZTN12uaEKQC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=4+questions+in+haggadah+yerushalmi&source=bl&ots=fZ4TuXGueY&sig=0JX7a8UpLRuwfBFLY5_vKtSWOpU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sFdIU4WSOILisATL0IKQBA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=4%20questions%20in%20haggadah%20yerushalmi&f=false

 If you ask what I will be doing, at least this year- I will be asking the 4 questions as printed in the Haggadah I will be using.

[muman613]

There are people who are reclining as well:


I don't think doing it in a chair would be a problem as long as the chair has arms on it and there was a way for you to lean on your left side.  If that's not good enough then perhaps there should be a push to do it more like the picture above instead of ignoring it altogether.

I agree. The chair should not have arms otherwise it is very uncomfortable.

[muman613]

So Tag, in your opinion, are you disagreeing with Rambam?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I agree. The chair should not have arms otherwise it is very uncomfortable.

 Actually you don't. He specifically said TO have harms, and you said not to have arms. He considers (by his post) having arms as being comfortable and you consider (by your post) that not having arms is comfortable (or actually having arms as being very uncomfortable).