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Offline angryChineseKahanist

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pickles
« on: April 17, 2014, 01:22:38 PM »
I occasionally eat pickles.
I bough a few jars yesterday. I noticed that at the supermarket, all the pickle jars either have the K or the OU on them. Many of them are labeled Kosher Dill or similar.
I used to live closed to the Lower East Side of Manhattan and I remember long lines of Jews at the pickle stores.

It's also mentioned in the bible.

So whats the connection between Jews and pickles?
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Offline Zelhar

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Re: pickles
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2014, 01:47:58 PM »
I don't know that pickles are mentioned in the bible. Pickling is just one of the few ways people could preserve food before refrigeration was available. My grandmother told me that they used to pickle cabbage and other vegetables and keep it in barrels and they prepared enough supply for an entire year.

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: pickles
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2014, 02:10:05 PM »

Kind of only twice. It mentions spiced up cucumbers.

Numbers 11:5

Isaiah 1:8
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Offline White Israelite

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Re: pickles
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2014, 03:06:31 PM »
I like boars head kosher pickle slices, also has the U symbol. I believe the difference with kosher is they are brined.

Even better I like Ba-tampte pickled green tomatoes.

Offline muman613

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Re: pickles
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2014, 03:35:30 PM »
I'm a Jew, I like pickles... I guess I am not that weird...

Bubbies

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: pickles
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2014, 03:40:24 PM »
Regarding the two mentions of cucumbers, the first one was during the complaint of the people against Moses, when they wanted to return to Mitzrayim, and they were 'reminiscing' about the great foods they had in Egypt...

4. But the multitude among them began to have strong cravings. Then even the children of Israel once again began to cry, and they said, "Who will feed us meat?
5. We remember the fish that we ate in Egypt free of charge, the cucumbers, the watermelons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic.
6. But now, our bodies are dried out, for there is nothing at all; we have nothing but manna to look at."


The sages tell us that they did not have free food in Egypt, and that the yetzer hara was taking hold of the people such that they were not satisfied with the Manna which Hashsem provided in the desert to the people.

Quote
Rashis notes on this section

which we ate in Egypt free of charge: If you say that the Egyptians gave them fish free of charge, does it not already say, “Straw shall not be given to you” (Exod. 5:18)? Now if straw was not given free of charge, was fish given to them free of charge? So what does “free of charge” mean? Free from [the burden of] precepts. — [Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1:42:5]

the cucumbers: R. Simeon says: Why did the manna change into everything except these? Because they are harmful for nursing mothers. We tell a [nursing] woman, “Do not eat any garlic or onion, for the baby’s sake. This can be compared to a king [who gave his son over to a teacher. He sat down and ordered him and said to him, ”See that he does not eat any harmful food and does not drink any harmful drink. Because of this, the son complained about his father, saying,“Not because he loves me, but because he does not want me to eat,”] as it is written in the Sifrei (Beha’alothecha 1:42:5).
.
.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: pickles
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2014, 03:45:09 PM »
The second reference you mention does not have much to do with the Cucumber itself, it is referring to a cucumber field...

7. Your land is desolate; your cities burnt with fire. Your land-in your presence, strangers devour it; and it is desolate as that turned over to strangers.
8. And the daughter of Zion shall be left like a hut in a vineyard, like a lodge in a cucumber field, like a besieged city.
9. "Had not the Lord of Hosts left us a remnant, we would soon be like Sodom; we would resemble Gomorrah."


Rashi's comment on this:

And the daughter of Zion shall be left: devoid of its inhabitants, for they will be exiled from its midst, as a hut in a vineyard, made by a watchman, and when the produce of the vineyard is gathered, he leaves his hut and goes away, after they gather it.
    
like a lodge in a cucumber field: As the lodge, which the watchman made at the end of a cucumber field, to watch its cucumber, is left, for after it is gathered, he leaves it and goes away; the one in the vineyard is called a hut since he lives in it day and night; by day, he guards it from the birds and by night from the thieves, but cucumbers are hard, and there is no fear of the birds, and one need not watch them by day. It is, therefore, called a lodge since it is a place of lodging at night. Jonathan renders: Like a bed in a lodge (again repeated in Hebrew), [in] a cucumber field, in a cucumber field after it has been picked (בָּתַר דְאַבְעָיוּהִי) , after it has been picked. [This is the expression of the Mishnah] (Peah 4: 5): “There are three gatherings (אַבְעָיוֹת) a day.”
    
like a besieged city: Like a city which was besieged, and they make huts around it to hide the troops, and when they give up the siege [lit., when they go away from it], they leave them and go away. All this is Jonathan’s translation.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: pickles
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2014, 03:50:38 PM »
In the Talmud (Oral Law) we find the following mention of Cucumbers which magically grow:

http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_68.html


Sanhedrib 68

But did R. Akiba learn this from R. Joshua? Surely it has been taught: When R. Eliezer fell sick, R. Akiba and his companions went to visit him. He was seated in his canopied four-poster, whilst they sat in his salon.1  That day was Sabbath eve, and his son Hyrcanus went in to him to remove his phylacteries.2  But his father rebuked him, and he retreated crestfallen. 'It seems to me,' said he to them, 'that my father's mind is deranged'.3  But R. Akiba said to them, 'his mind is clear, but his mother's [sc. of Hyrcanus] is deranged:4  how can one neglect a prohibition which is punished by death, and turn his attention to something which is merely forbidden as a shebuth?'5  The Sages, seeing that his mind was clear, entered his chamber and sat down at a distance of four cubits.6  'Why have ye come?' said he to them. 'To study the Torah', they replied; 'And why did ye not come before now', he asked? They answered, 'We had no time'. He then said, 'I will be surprised if these die a natural death'. R. Akiba asked him, 'And what will my death be?' and he answered, 'Yours will be more cruel than theirs'. He then put his two arms over his heart, and bewailed them, saying, 'Woe to you, two arms of mine, that have been like two Scrolls of the Law that are wrapped up.7  Much Torah have I studied, and much have I taught.8  Much Torah have I learnt, yet have I but skimmed from the knowledge of my teachers as much as a dog lapping from the sea. Much Torah have I taught, yet my disciples have only drawn from me as much as a painting stick from its tube. Moreover, I have studied three hundred laws on the subject of a deep bright spot,9  yet no man has ever asked me about them. Moreover, I have studied three hundred, (or, as others state, three thousand laws) about the planting of cucumbers [by magic] and no man, excepting Akiba b. Joseph, ever questioned me thereon. For it once happened that he and I were walking together on a road, when he said to me, "My master, teach me about the planting of cucumbers". I made one statement, and the whole field [about us] was filled with cucumbers. Then he said, "Master, you have taught me how to plant them, now teach me how to pluck them up". I said something and all the cucumbers gathered in one place'. His visitors then asked him, 'What is the law of a ball, a shoemaker's last, an amulet, a leather bag containing pearls, and a small weight?'10  He replied, 'They can become unclean, and if unclean, they are restored to their uncleanliness just as they are.'11  Then they asked him, 'What of a shoe that is on the last?'12  He replied, 'It is clean;' and in pronouncing this word his soul departed. Then R. Joshua arose and exclaimed, 'The vow is annulled, the vow is annulled!'13  On the conclusion of the Sabbath R. Akiba met his bier being carried from Caesarea to Lydda. [In his grief] he beat his flesh until the blood flowed down upon the earth — Then R. Akiba commenced his funeral address, the mourners being lined up about the coffin, and said: 'My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof;14  I have many coins, but no money changer to accept them.'15  Thus from this story we see that he learned this [sc. the producing of cucumbers by magic] from R. Eliezer? — He learned it from R. Eliezer, but did not grasp it, then he learned it from R. Joshua, who made it clear to him.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: pickles
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 03:59:56 PM »
I'm a Jew, I like pickles... I guess I am not that weird...

Bubbies



why so murky?
that would scare me away from buying it.
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Offline muman613

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Re: pickles
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2014, 04:01:02 PM »
why so murky?
that would scare me away from buying it.

Bubbies pickles are in a broth liquid... It is murky when you shake it up (as they recommend)... Bubbies pickles are fermented...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

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Re: pickles
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2014, 05:45:09 PM »
Kind of only twice. It mentions spiced up cucumbers.

Numbers 11:5

Isaiah 1:8
I don't know what the English translations say but in the Hebrew original it mentions names of various vegetables (what is perhaps cucumbers, onions, garlic, and watermelon) and other food types. The word "kishu" which in modern Hebrew means what in America you call zucchini may mean cucumber in ancient Hebrew. It doesn't say spiced up though.

Offline muman613

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Re: pickles
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2014, 06:43:01 PM »
I don't know what the English translations say but in the Hebrew original it mentions names of various vegetables (what is perhaps cucumbers, onions, garlic, and watermelon) and other food types. The word "kishu" which in modern Hebrew means what in America you call zucchini may mean cucumber in ancient Hebrew. It doesn't say spiced up though.

I posted it above...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lisa

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Re: pickles
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2014, 09:21:19 PM »
I like the spicy kosher Israeli pickles.  In fact, I LOVE drinking pickle juice. 

Just before Passover, I bought a container of extra spicy jalapeno pickles from the glatt kosher supermarket.  I drank some of that pickle juice as well. 

Offline Every Jew AK47

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Re: pickles
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2014, 12:33:00 AM »
I don't know that pickles are mentioned in the bible. Pickling is just one of the few ways people could preserve food before refrigeration was available. My grandmother told me that they used to pickle cabbage and other vegetables and keep it in barrels and they prepared enough supply for an entire year.

They call that sauerkraut and Jews been eating that for gazillions of years.

The problem with most pickles today is they are crap!  They are not fermented in the traditional way and don't have much nutritional benefits.  I get my pickles from a guy who ferments them the traditional way in Whiskey barrels in their natural brine.  They are loaded with nutrients and beneficial probiotic bacteria.  Most of the pickles you see in the store are pasteurized and/or soaked in vinegar to try to emulate the pickling effect.  In effect, they are not true pickles like people ate in the olden days.      The connection between Jews and pickled foods is that Jews lived in cold desolate countries where food was scare and electricity and refrigeration where not yet existent.  So, pickling the food was a way to preserve it and it also provided a lot of health benefits.  It was known for a long time for the many healing properties of the pickled cucumber or cabbage brine with remedying stomach problems or ulcers.

Eating fermented food is not something we did because it was "In-Style" like it is today, it was done as a means of survival. 

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Offline muman613

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Re: pickles
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2014, 12:36:11 AM »
They call that sauerkraut and Jews been eating that for gazillions of years.

Bubbies got ya covered...



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Every Jew AK47

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Re: pickles
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2014, 12:38:13 AM »
Bubbies got ya covered...


That is one of the better brands on the shelves of most stores, but I actually get my sauerkraut from a local company here in Seattle that ages its cabbage and pickles in Oak Whiskey barrels.  Also, they do not pasteurize the cabbage or pickled cukes like Bubbies does.. Both brands are Certified Kosher by Seattle Va'ad:



Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

Offline muman613

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Re: pickles
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2014, 12:40:20 AM »
Nice.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline kyel

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Re: pickles
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2014, 12:48:40 AM »
Kosher certified pickles are pickles that do not use animal products or byproducts from non-kosher slaughtered animals but most just use no animal products.

Kosher style pickles are pickles made with brine and garlic and are not necessarily "Kosher" in a religious sense.

Offline muman613

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Re: pickles
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2014, 12:49:09 AM »
I'm still a Bubbies fanatic...

Best Kosher Pickle 5768




Bubbies is 'local' for me, they are located in San Francisco...


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: pickles
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2014, 12:49:45 AM »
Kosher certified pickles are pickles that do not use animal products or byproducts from non-kosher slaughtered animals but most just use no animal products.

Kosher style pickles are pickles made with brine and garlic and are not necessarily "Kosher" in a religious sense.

Bubbies products are all OU Kosher certified.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Online ChabadKahanist

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Re: pickles
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2014, 12:53:05 AM »
Regarding the two mentions of cucumbers, the first one was during the complaint of the people against Moses, when they wanted to return to Mitzrayim, and they were 'reminiscing' about the great foods they had in Egypt...

4. But the multitude among them began to have strong cravings. Then even the children of Israel once again began to cry, and they said, "Who will feed us meat?
5. We remember the fish that we ate in Egypt free of charge, the cucumbers, the watermelons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic.
6. But now, our bodies are dried out, for there is nothing at all; we have nothing but manna to look at."


The sages tell us that they did not have free food in Egypt, and that the yetzer hara was taking hold of the people such that they were not satisfied with the Manna which Hashsem provided in the desert to the people.
It says kishuim which is zuccini milfofonim are cucumbers

Offline muman613

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Re: pickles
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2014, 01:01:51 AM »
It says kishuim which is zuccini milfofonim are cucumbers

Tell Rashi, he interpreted it as Cucumbers (in French of course).

It seems most interpret Kishuim as Cucumber. I see it in several places, for instance http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?aid=15564&p=1&showrashi=true

only [payment] for his [enforced] idleness: Heb. שִׁבְךְתּוֹ, the [enforced] idleness from his work due to the illness. If he cut off his hand or his foot, we assess [payment for] the idleness as if he were a watchman of a cucumber field, because even after [recovery from] the illness, he is not fit for work that requires a hand or foot, and he [the assailant] already gave him as payment for his damage the value of his hand and his foot, as it is said: “a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot” (Exod. 21:24). -[From B.K. 83b, 85b, Tosefta B.K. 9:1]

רק שבתו: בטול מלאכתו מחמת החולי, אם קטע ידו או רגלו, רואין בטול מלאכתו מחמת החולי כאילו הוא שומר קשואין, שהרי אף לאחר החולי אינו ראוי למלאכת יד ורגל, והוא כבר נתן לו מחמת נזקו דמי ידו ורגלו, שנאמר (פסוק כד) יד תחת יד רגל תחת רגל:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9939/jewish/Chapter-11.htm#showrashi=true

the cucumbers: R. Simeon says: Why did the manna change into everything except these? Because they are harmful for nursing mothers. We tell a [nursing] woman, “Do not eat any garlic or onion, for the baby’s sake. This can be compared to a king [who gave his son over to a teacher. He sat down and ordered him and said to him, ”See that he does not eat any harmful food and does not drink any harmful drink. Because of this, the son complained about his father, saying,“Not because he loves me, but because he does not want me to eat,”] as it is written in the Sifrei (Beha’alothecha 1:42:5).

את הקשאים: אמר ר' שמעון מפני מה המן משתנה לכל דבר חוץ מאלו, מפני שהן קשים למניקות, אומרים לאשה אל תאכלי שום ובצל מפני התינוק. משל למלך וכו', כדאיתא בספרי:
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Online ChabadKahanist

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Re: pickles
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2014, 01:49:59 AM »
Tell Rashi, he interpreted it as Cucumbers (in French of course).

It seems most interpret Kishuim as Cucumber. I see it in several places, for instance http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?aid=15564&p=1&showrashi=true

only [payment] for his [enforced] idleness: Heb. שִׁבְךְתּוֹ, the [enforced] idleness from his work due to the illness. If he cut off his hand or his foot, we assess [payment for] the idleness as if he were a watchman of a cucumber field, because even after [recovery from] the illness, he is not fit for work that requires a hand or foot, and he [the assailant] already gave him as payment for his damage the value of his hand and his foot, as it is said: “a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot” (Exod. 21:24). -[From B.K. 83b, 85b, Tosefta B.K. 9:1]

רק שבתו: בטול מלאכתו מחמת החולי, אם קטע ידו או רגלו, רואין בטול מלאכתו מחמת החולי כאילו הוא שומר קשואין, שהרי אף לאחר החולי אינו ראוי למלאכת יד ורגל, והוא כבר נתן לו מחמת נזקו דמי ידו ורגלו, שנאמר (פסוק כד) יד תחת יד רגל תחת רגל:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9939/jewish/Chapter-11.htm#showrashi=true

the cucumbers: R. Simeon says: Why did the manna change into everything except these? Because they are harmful for nursing mothers. We tell a [nursing] woman, “Do not eat any garlic or onion, for the baby’s sake. This can be compared to a king [who gave his son over to a teacher. He sat down and ordered him and said to him, ”See that he does not eat any harmful food and does not drink any harmful drink. Because of this, the son complained about his father, saying,“Not because he loves me, but because he does not want me to eat,”] as it is written in the Sifrei (Beha’alothecha 1:42:5).

את הקשאים: אמר ר' שמעון מפני מה המן משתנה לכל דבר חוץ מאלו, מפני שהן קשים למניקות, אומרים לאשה אל תאכלי שום ובצל מפני התינוק. משל למלך וכו', כדאיתא בספרי:
All the translations do indeed say cucumbers,perhaps in modern Hebrew the meaning changed or that there is more than one translation.
Yes I know that is Rashi says & of course he knows better than creators of modern Hebrew.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: pickles
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2014, 03:48:28 AM »
Pickles are one of those things that are nice in small doses, but not enjoyable in huge quantities, at least for me. A couple of them are nice in a burger or as a snack, but there's only so much staying power that a salty, vinegary, bland vegetable has.

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: pickles
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2014, 02:55:41 AM »
Bubbies got ya covered...



oi you are drunk from those pickles.
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