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Offline muman613

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EJA44,

Watching Harry Potter or reading it does not constitute witchcraft according to the Torah. It is possible for a person to read or watch a program which discusses the topic of witches without believing that they really exist. So long as those involved do not believe that there are real witches or that witchcraft is a craft which has power then according to Jewish belief it is OK.

Does your Chabad teach that Harry Potter is real or that witchcraft is real? I seriously doubt that. Having a Harry Potter themed party is not witchcraft, it is supposed to be a fun thing that is popular with a lot of the kids today. I myself have not read or watched a single Potter film or book... But in my days I did read a lot of the Dungeons and Dragons themed stories (which contain stories of magic and sorcery) but I never for a moment believed that they were real.

So I don't know if your protests against this is warranted.

See this discussion on the topic showing that Harry Potter does not represent any Jewish values..



http://www.aish.com/atr/Harry_Potter_and_the_Jews.html
Harry Potter and the Jews

The Harry Potter series is so popular, but it got me wondering: Does it classify as witchcraft? Should children be allowed / encouraged / discouraged in its reading?

The Aish Rabbi Replies:

No one can deny that the Harry Potter stories are riveting entertainment and fine literature. But I suppose the criteria for a rabbi would be: Do they teach Jewish values?

Judaism teaches that the chief purpose of life in this Muggle world is to improve negative character traits. The struggle against venality and small-mindedness is also a struggle against evil. The answer to overcoming meanness and stupidity is not to escape into a fantasy environment, but to help change the world in which one finds oneself.

However, in Harry Potter's world of Hogwarts, there are no ambiguous characters, nor people who undergo moral character development. From the moment of entry into Hogwarts, every one is fixed in place (with the possible exception of Professor Snape).

In Harry Potter's world, this lack of ability to alter one's character and to freely choose sides transforms the epic moral struggle between good and evil into a pure power struggle with no moral implications. Victory hangs on who can come up with stronger magic.

Moreover, there is no attempt at redeeming the evil or transforming it. The good is merely maintaining the status quo, and keeping the evil – in the guise of Lord Voldemort – from gaining a foothold. The evil wants to dominate just because it is evil and hates the good, and vice versa. They are not contending for some prize, either tangible or spiritual, that would accrue to the victor. Their only goal is to destroy each other.

In contrast, the essence of Jewish belief is that the struggle between good and evil is a moral struggle. It takes place in the heart, not in the outside world. The contestants are an individual's conscience against his own urges – i.e. spirituality against the physical life force.

According to Jewish perspective, evil is not repulsive. On the contrary, to insure that it has an even chance to present us with free will choices, God made evil attractive. That appeal levels the playing field, gives evil a fighting chance, and gives us the opportunity to earn eternal reward for choosing the right thing.

Another significant difference between Judaism and Harry Potter is the ability to reclaim a lost human soul.

Judaism says that just as a person can invest his life force in the wrong place through free will, he can also redeem his investment and pull it back again. In a Jewish fairy tale, the hero would battle for the soul of Lord Voldemort and attempt to reclaim it for the good. No human being with the power of free will is irredeemable.

Jews recite the following verse twice daily: "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your hearts, with all your soul, and with all your resources." (Deut. 6:5) The Talmud interprets the phrase "with all your hearts" (plural) as a reference to the good and evil impulse within us. We are commanded to serve God with our inclination toward evil, as well as our inclination toward good.

No impulse in man is irreclaimable; nothing human is doomed to destruction. The mark of a Jewish hero is transforming evil into good and bringing all back to God. In a Jewish world, where evil can be transformed and reclaimed into good, our ordinary Muggle world is full of magic. Ordinary life becomes a heroic saga.

As far as your question about witchcraft, witchcraft is explicitly forbidden in the Torah (Exodus 22:17). Harry Potter depicts witchcraft, but is not witchcraft itself. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein writes that if a child is aware that something is a fairy tale and not reality, then it may be read for its literary value. ("Igrot Moshe" Y.D. 4:13)
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-3967/naming-children-after-the-deceased/?p=2254

Spiritualism and Harry Potter

Question: Is Judaism against mediums, fortune tellers, witches, sorcery , etc? I was told that this was a problem and that it was in the Tanach. Is this true? I mean I love Harry Potter books and fantasy/sci-fi. If this is true, what do you tell a Jewish child reading Harry Potter?

Answer: Witchcraft, fortune telling, necromancy, are indeed forbidden in the Torah. See Ex. 22; 17 and Deut. 18; 9-16 for details. You might also like to compare Deut 18; 13 with Deut. 29; 28 which seems to suggest that our job isn’t to put our finger on the pulse of the spiritual universe and achieve a God-like understanding of its inner workings, but to work and live in this world, perfecting ourselves using the tools and wonderful this-worldly gifts that He has given us.

You might also be interested that Maimonides was of the strong opinion that none of these activities had any power or worth, but that the whole genre is a great fraud (and the Torah wants to keep us from fraudulent foolishness). Most other sages disagreed (and felt that, while certainly forbidden, that there was substance to it all), but Maimonides does carry some weight. However, all that doesn’t mean that reading fictional accounts of their practice is equally forbidden. Some Jews do oppose having Jewish children reading the Potter books because of the lifestyle and mindset that they represent. But that feeling certainly isn’t universal.

With my best regards,
Rabbi Boruch Clinton

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Every Jew AK47

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EJA44,

Watching Harry Potter or reading it does not constitute witchcraft according to the Torah. It is possible for a person to read or watch a program which discusses the topic of witches without believing that they really exist. So long as those involved do not believe that there are real witches or that witchcraft is a craft which has power then according to Jewish belief it is OK.

Does your Chabad teach that Harry Potter is real or that witchcraft is real? I seriously doubt that. Having a Harry Potter themed party is not witchcraft, it is supposed to be a fun thing that is popular with a lot of the kids today. I myself have not read or watched a single Potter film or book... But in my days I did read a lot of the Dungeons and Dragons themed stories (which contain stories of magic and sorcery) but I never for a moment believed that they were real.

So I don't know if your protests against this is warranted.

See this discussion on the topic showing that Harry Potter does not represent any Jewish values..

Obviously, my Chabad doesn't teach that witchcraft is real nor does it teach the tooth fairy is real.. However, there is a big difference between watching a movie, playing a video game/card game/ role-playing game and dressing up and imitating these characters in a holy place of G-d..   

Let me ask you a question on this subject Muman, let's say that we all have a day where we dress up like the Phillistines and I bring an idol of Dagon, the pagan god of the Phillistines into the temple and do a mock worship of it..  Considering, we are just having fun, playing a game, is it ok??  Do you think this may or may not invoke any anger from Hashem, especially being performed in his holy sanctuary??

It's one thing for us to dress up like magicians, sorcerers , witches at a halloween party, but to do this on the Holy Day of Shabbat in his Sanctuary, the Temple, I , myself, just cannot feel comfortable or believe is acceptable in the eyes of G-d.

Now, I am speaking from my own intuition.  You are obivously the more religious and at the level of a Torah scholar; I am just a lowly backwoodsy Jewish guy , with no income, do not own a home, have no, halachic upbriging and not even worth a dime to any Jew where I Live.  Heck, I cannot even afford to own a pair of teffilin right now.   In essence, I am not really that important and most other Jews just sniff and mock at me for any opinions I have.

So, don't take anything I say at face value.


Anyhow, I am still a human and have an opinion, whether it's worth a dime to my fellow Jew or not.   I have just learned we have sold one of our holiest possessions to the Catholic crusaders and that many others are in the hands of the Islamic crusaders.

I just feel that in perilous times as these, dressing up like wizards and sorcerers in his holy sanctuary is not in our best interests.  We should be doing what we can to invoke favor, not enmity with Him.

Somehow, I think invoking an idol of Zeus, Baal, Dagon, Astheroth, Ishtar in the holy sanctuary for fun or not can be bad news.. Same with invoking sorcery.  What if by us playing this game, one Jew who's soul is in a state of weakness, suddenly gives way and decides to embrace these pagan ideologies or start tinkering with sorcery??  Has this not happened in the past?  Perhaps, many of the incidences where Jews were led astray and started worshiping pagan gods started as something that was just a joke or fun..  Who knows.. I say it is Chilul Hashem and that we are playing with fire.. Others, will just say I need to lighten up and have a little fun..

I agree I am not always the most fun company.. I take things  kind of seriously.. That's what a Shoah can do to a man..  The easy life ended when my ancestors were exterminated in my grandmother's village.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 10:07:59 PM by EveryJewA44 »
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Offline muman613

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EJA44,

I do not know your Chabad rabbi and thus I don't know what his intention or thought was in doing this.

You know that during Purim it is OK to dress as Haman or Achasverach and other bad guys... But you are talking about a Shabbaton with this theme... You have said your relation with this Rabbi is strained (I think you said this, if not please correct me)... I would ask the Rabbi about it, voicing your concerns...

If you would like I will discuss this with my Chabad rabbi and see what his opinion is...

I sure wish you would find a community where you feel comfortable. Some of the 'self-deprecating' comments you made in your post are a bit upsetting to me to hear a Jew (especially one who associates with the Kahanists) say... Remember that you are not permitted to speak Lashon Hara about yourself too.

You are correct that there should be a certain respect in the Sanctuary (where the Holy ark and the congregation davens)... There should not be levity or any unrelated talk going on there. You have a point which should be discussed with your community if you felt more comfortable.



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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http://ohr.edu/this_week/the_weekly_daf/348

When the Torah commanded us to respect the Sanctuary, it did not explicitly define the nature of that respect; theoretically, such respect could include prostrating oneself before the Sanctuary as one would before Hashem. To dispel this notion, the Torah coupled in one passage (Vayikra 19:30) the command to observe Shabbat and to respect the Sanctuary. This is to teach us that just as in regard to Shabbat there is no obligation to show respect by bowing to the day (Rashi since the Torah does not mention "respect" in regard to Shabbat) but rather to the One who commanded us to observe Shabbat, so too the respect required regarding the Sanctuary is not respect for the building, but rather for the One who commanded us regarding the Sanctuary.

But how does one show respect for Hashem through his behavior in the Sanctuary?

Our Sages gave us a number of things we must refrain from doing even on the Temple Mount where the ultimate Sanctuary the Beit Hamikdash stood. This list includes some things, such as the prohibition against wearing shoes, which we do not apply to our "minor sanctuaries" of synagogues. But it also includes not using the Temple Mount as a shortcut for getting from one place to another. This sign of disrespect is prohibited even in regard to a synagogue, and is recorded in Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 151:5).

Using the synagogue as a shortcut, or entering it for the purpose of calling someone there to come out, is considered disrespectful, as it is an exploitation of a holy place for a personal need. The halacha instructs us to eliminate the disrespect involved in such actions by reading some words of Torah or saying some mishna or halacha before indulging in the personal activity. If a person is not able to thus justify his presence, he should ask a child to recite the Torah passage he has just learned or at least sit down for a few moments, for even sitting in a synagogue is considered a mitzvah as indicated in the passage "Fortunate are those who sit in Your house." (Tehillim 84:
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Every Jew AK47

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EJA44,

I do not know your Chabad rabbi and thus I don't know what his intention or thought was in doing this.

You know that during Purim it is OK to dress as Haman or Achasverach and other bad guys... But you are talking about a Shabbaton with this theme... You have said your relation with this Rabbi is strained (I think you said this, if not please correct me)... I would ask the Rabbi about it, voicing your concerns...

If you would like I will discuss this with my Chabad rabbi and see what his opinion is...

MY relationship with this Rabbi is not strained at all. That was my relationship with another Rabbi at another Chabad in the area.  As a matter of fact, this rabbi seems kinda like the coolest, most hip , easy going rabbi I ever dealt with.    Considering how rigid and strong-headed some Rabbis I have met could be, his personality I find much more palatable.    There is a lot of good things I like about him but perhaps, his easy-going, fun, hip persona may also be his downfall.   I actually like him as a person, but I don't agree with what he is doing..    My concerns are that he is getting a bit too liberal and may result in wrecking havoc on Jewish spirituality and sacredness of Hashem's Holy Temple.   

Indeed, I had a bad interaction with another rabbi and his son at another Chabad who I felt made a mockery of Hashem's Torah on Simchat Torah.  I understand drinking and being happy is part of the holy day, but being s**tfaced drunk, screaming, insulting people and getting rowdy and jumping around with the Torah IMO is insulting and yeah this also struck an arrow in me and took away some of my love and respect for Chabad.  Being the open-minded person I am though, I overlooked this offense and never again attended that particular Chabad.  That Chabad is not the one I am attending anymore and I will never go back to it..  Where I live there is like a dozen Chabads.  I have attended one Chabad that I Felt was had a wonderful rabbi, who was extremely devoted and I wish I could have got to know better, but I moved away frmo him..  As a matter of fact, that particular Chabad was one of the synagogues that help re-ignite my respect for them and also realize not to judge Chabad as a whole , but individually.    I did my last Yom Kippur service at that Chabad..  Notice, I do not give locations, I will not divulge those on the forum.

Purim is a whole other deal.. We are following a mitzvah on Purim and the bad guys are suppose to be bad, not good.. Nobody dresses up like a bad guy on Purim with the intent on glorifying the bad guy.. However, this is The Holy Day of Shabbat and they are dressing up in the characters of a fantasy movie that glorifies magic, sorcery, witchcraft, etc..    If some type of mitzvah is being fulfilled, I sure as heck don't see it.. IT looks more like people are just entertaining themselves and, IMO, playing with fire.
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Offline muman613

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I hear what you are saying and think you have some points.

Have you asked the Rabbi about this or are you afraid he and the community may have an issue with your concern?

Anyway, here is more information about how we should respect the Sanctuary.


http://www.torah.org/learning/livinglaw/5766/vayeitzei.html

Respect of the Sanctuary: On Sacred Ground

The Mitzvah: The house of G-d necessitates respect and awe, as the verse proclaims "My Sanctuary you shall fear" (Leviticus 19:30). One could not enter the Temple Mount in a lackadaisical fashion, when wearing shoes or carrying money in one's pocket. At all times, it has to be treated with due reverence for the sanctity of the place. (Indeed, this offers a model the contemporary Jew for a synagogue as the Temple-in-miniature). Nowadays, Jews remain forbidden to set foot within the sacrosanct borders of the Temple, as they anxiously wait the rebuilding of the Third Temple speedily in our days.

In this week's parasha, Yaakov distressingly awoke after his prophetic dream of the ladder and his vision of G-d: "Surely G-d is in this place and I did not know" he declared (Genesis 28:16). He had fallen asleep on sacred ground; at the place where the holy Temple would later be built. Yaakov was filled with trepidation that he may not have shown due diligence to revering such a holy site and had not demonstrated enough spiritual sensitivity.

What was the significance of this location? And why should this site demand such veneration?

There are parallels in the sphere of "time", "place" and "soul". In the calendar, the weekdays are "times" of lesser holiness than the sanctity of Sabbath and the Festivals. There are similar demarcations in the realm of "space". The Land of Israel is holier than other countries; Jerusalem is the holiest city and the Temple Mount is the holiest "space" therein.

Of course, this was intentional and is laden with spiritual significance. "Time" and "place" began at this point; expanding outwards from the "Foundation Stone" located in the inner sanctum of the Temple, until the universe was fashioned. (See Talmud, Menachos 29b, Yoma 54b). This contains, in some sense, the key and cornerstone to life.

With its feet set earthward and its top heavenward, the ladder is symbol to man's personal relationship to G-d, and to the world's general relationship with its Creator. Creation was G-d's "desire" that He have a dwelling place in the world below, just as He has up Above (Midrash Tanchuma, Naso 16).

The sanctified parameters of the Temple represent the point where Heaven and Earth join together (See Talmud, Bava Basra 74a). The residence of the Shechinah, Divine Presence is where the spiritual and physical domains merge into one. It is the holy "space" wherein man ascends to experience and enter into a profound, spiritual with his Creator while still within the physical confines of this world. And within himself, mankind similarly transforms his body to become the resting place and holy vessel for his "soul".

The Jewish people climbed up to the Temple on the Three Pilgrimage Festivals (Deuteronomy 16:16-17) as they offered up special sacrifices. This trip would re-energize their appreciation and affinity to spirituality. They were awed by the splendour of the Temple and her vessels. They were dazzled by the dazzling array of miracles that transpired daily (See Ethics of the Fathers 5:7). And they were amazed at the holiness of the house of G-d - that was the locus of the nation and the symbol of Jewish life.

Where entering the court of the king, all concentrated must be directed towards the sovereign. In the palace it is impudent to exhibit a relaxed or even casual demeanor - nothing but full homage to the ruler with exemplary respect and fear. Nothing less is expected in the house of "the King of all kings" - within the Temple. The reverence and respect demanded within the Temple's confines evoked a climate of sensitivity into realizing what life was all about - a serious enterprise where man relates to G-d, existence whose very inception commenced from this point in the creation of the world.

The imagery of Yaakov's ladder provides the rungs and symbolism of what a Jew's life is all about: a life of Kedushah, "Holiness". It is where physical actions on Earth are directed to G-d and channelled to spirituality, where the realms of "time" and "place" are filled with the "soul". All of the person's actions are, accordingly, directed in the service of his Creator, such that even man's body itself becomes transformed into a "house of G-d" (Genesis 28:22).
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Every Jew AK47

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I hear what you are saying and think you have some points.

Have you asked the Rabbi about this or are you afraid he and the community may have an issue with your concern?

Anyway, here is more information about how we should respect the Sanctuary.

Muman.. You are an encyclopedia of great information of Jewish law, minhag, halacha.  What can I say, I always enjoy your posts!!

Wow, a little deep and I still cannot see how anything you wrote justifies what this Chabad Rabbi is doing.  If anything what you wrote emphasizes my points even more of how holy ,sacred and special is the Sanctuary of Hashem.  Even , just walking in and walking out is considered dishonoring.   


There is no way I will confront this Rabbi or attempt to change his synagogue.  As I stated, I am a lowly Jew who others look down upon.  I am not an honorable and well-learned Jew like yourself.  However, I would think a person with so much knowledge of halacha as yourself would be the more appropriate person to confront him.    Most synagogues don't even want me around because I do not have much money and do not offer much in ways of halachic knowledge .  Maybe, one day when I become a more learned Jew I can stand up to what I feel are injustices in the religious community more.  FOr now, I just sojourn and keep my mouth shut.  IF i don't like what I see , I just move on.   I vent my frustration about my pathetic life or misdeeds I encounter in the Jewish community here on web forums.. 

As for me, I would like to embrace a more traditional , ancient way of life.. I was even considering going to Yemen and trying to find the long lost Yemenite Jews and experiencing a very ancient traditional way of life.  When you wrote about how Jews were not even suppose to wear shoes in the synagogue, it really struck a nerve in me, as the Yemenite Jews in Yemen would never enter the synagogue with shoes.  Also, they would sit on the floor during prayer, as to be closer to Hashem or something as of that. Most modern synagogues are designed after Orthodox churches with the long pews, etc.  Our modern synagogues incorporated some western customs into our kehillot.  Hence, why we now wear shoes, fedora-style hats, pants and sit on pews rather than wear chaluk, turbans, remove our shoes and sit on the floor.  Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon has always been an inspiring character to me with regards to eastern Jewish minhag and style of worship, dress, etc.

My friend David sought out these lost Yemenite Jewish communities and almost lost his life..  I am at the point soon, where I feel a trip to seek out lost ancient Jewish communities would be a great fulfilling deed for me, even if I have to die in the process.. 
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Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Some Orthodox synagogue have magic shows for kids during Hanukkah parties. It's allowed because we know it's not real and there is some trick that the magicians use.


Offline muman613

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Shalom EJA44,

Do not sacrifice your life... Yemen is dangerous for Jews... Judaism does not require that we sacrifice our lives except for the cardinal 3 (Idolatry, Murder, and Sexual immorality) See http://www.aish.com/atr/Big_3_Cardinal_Sins.html...

You should be able to find a community of Jews which respect you and honor you. I am sorry it seems like money is the issue. My Chabad gives honor to just about everyone who comes regardless of whether they contribute money or are new to the community. But we all live in different communities and things are not the same everywhere.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask me. I have several Rabbis I respect who I can call with any difficult questions.

I will take up this issue with my Chabad rabbi this Shabbat (regarding the Harry Potter Shabbaton)...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Every Jew AK47

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Shalom EJA44,

Do not sacrifice your life... Yemen is dangerous for Jews... Judaism does not require that we sacrifice our lives except for the cardinal 3 (Idolatry, Murder, and Sexual immorality) See http://www.aish.com/atr/Big_3_Cardinal_Sins.html...

You should be able to find a community of Jews which respect you and honor you. I am sorry it seems like money is the issue. My Chabad gives honor to just about everyone who comes regardless of whether they contribute money or are new to the community. But we all live in different communities and things are not the same everywhere.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask me. I have several Rabbis I respect who I can call with any difficult questions.

I will take up this issue with my Chabad rabbi this Shabbat (regarding the Harry Potter Shabbaton)...

I appreciate your help on the issue and understanding my concerns.   Also, I would be interested to hear what your Chabad rabbi has to say about the issue.

Considering the goofiness or awkwardness of the Chabad I am attending, I thought I may entertain my own form of weirdness.    Since people there seem to be ok with dressing up as wizards and sorcerers, I thought I would attend one of my services dressed up as a Teimani Jew, wearing turban/kippa combo and a chaluk.    I will not be phased by a person wearing a wizard's robe telling me that I am breaking the minhag by dressing up as a Teimani..   ::)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 04:36:41 PM by EveryJewA44 »
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Offline Every Jew AK47

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I've decided I am going to leave this very LIBERAL college Chabad.  I cannot deal with all the spoiled brat college pukes who attend there and the rabbi who just overlooks all the offenses that are being committed at this shul.  It's sad this place had to bear the "Chabad logo".   They invited two goyim to attend the synagogue.  I don't exactly know the rules.  However, one of the non-Jewish guys was not wearing a kippa and I told him he needs to put on a kippa when he is in a synagogue.    His idiot friend then tells him to take it off and that he doesn't need to wear it..  Was I in the wrong?  As far as I know in any Orthodox synagogue, you are suppose to wear a kippa.  Does being next to a college campus mean you no longer have to follow halacha to appease the liberal college kids who attend your shul?

The people there treat me like I am some type of crazed religious psycho.  It appears to be more of a cool, hip college hangout than a holy and righteous place of G-d.  BTW, they supposedlky welcome everybody so should not be treating non-college people with contempt, like they do.  I just about knocked out this one snotty rich kid who started bitching at me for consuming kosher protein powder while I was at the synagogue.  This was after the moron told me he eats pork and shellfish and that it is no big deal.  I am like why are you b*tching at me for consuming kosher protein powder, when you admit you break some of the most important rules of kashrut and have no shame, eating pork and shellfish.     Then the guy starts mocking me for liking Israeli music and asks me what Mizrachi music or Mizrachi Jews are??  I am thinking to myself, do you know anything about Jews, besides the ones you grew up with in your liberal Amercian synagouge in the most wealthy city of the metro area???   He starts just laughing cause he deems me not cool as him and his spoiled bratty college friends.  He also was assuring me the Chabad is very liberal, easy-going and accepting.  I was like, I think you are getting carried away with how liberal you believe the Chabad to be.  This seems to be the mentality of him and the other snotty liberal college brats who populate this Chabad.  He then starts getting into a rant with his other college friends about how bad Christians are to gay people.   Keeping my mouth shut, I was thinking to myself, have you ever read what the Torah says about homosexuality, you idiot?

Now, to go bit deeper and explode on another tangent:
I have had no luck with any synagogue here in the USA.. Is Israel better??  Considering, how Westernized Israel is, I really doubt it.  I hear even most Mizarchi/Sefardi in Israel follow American Jewish culture, for most part.  Israel, supposedly is even more liberal than USA, as a country and is totally socialist/european in government.

I am actually considering just leaving "Modern/Western" Judaism and going my own way in life, giving up on the Jewish community altogether.  Afterall, we sell off our holy sites and let our women dress like sluts in our shuls and don't mind goyim coming without covering their heads in our holy places.  I am thinking modern Judaism is just a social gathering where people look for business partners or look for place to boast about their riches or family life.

As a religion, I feel we have become lost..  We have more or less let the goyim rule over our hearts and have dismissed the glory and power of Hashem.  We have submitted to the European and Islamic masters and now serve their demands and desires, not our own.    Until , we restore our ancient traditional minhag and zeal for glory, we will always be a suffering pathetic people.  We are much quicker to jab a knife into one of our own people to silence them for hurting our pride or insulting the feelings of our so-called friend then to unite and work together to overcome the great evil that seeks our destruction.

I am actually planning a trip to Yemen to find the long lost traditional Yemenite Jews who live there, because I feel if I fail, then I die and leave this wretched earth and if I succeed I can find the last remnant of real, traditional ancient Rambam-style Judaism left in this world.

G-d Save the Fools and Traitors who sell off their holy places to their enemies.   

There is no Aliyah to be made now, Israel is now in the hand of the Crusaders, we just fool ourselves thinking we own the land, when we are just , in fact, caretakers.   How and when have we become so lost in our ways and felt the desire to serve the evils of the world and its Avodah Zarah rather than to serve heaven and Hashem.




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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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A non-Jew doesn't have to wear a kippa.

Offline Every Jew AK47

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A non-Jew doesn't have to wear a kippa.

Thanks for letting me know.  I've never attended a shul where I saw a man not wearing a kippa, so it was a shock for Mr to see it.  I thought all me had to be covered out of respect for Hashem when entering the shul.
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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If BerGOGlio is Gog, this action makes perfect sense.

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I've decided I am going to leave this very LIBERAL college Chabad.  I cannot deal with all the spoiled brat college pukes who attend there and the rabbi who just overlooks all the offenses that are being committed at this shul.  It's sad this place had to bear the "Chabad logo".   They invited two goyim to attend the synagogue.  I don't exactly know the rules.  However, one of the non-Jewish guys was not wearing a kippa and I told him he needs to put on a kippa when he is in a synagogue.    His idiot friend then tells him to take it off and that he doesn't need to wear it..  Was I in the wrong?  As far as I know in any Orthodox synagogue, you are suppose to wear a kippa.  Does being next to a college campus mean you no longer have to follow halacha to appease the liberal college kids who attend your shul?

The people there treat me like I am some type of crazed religious psycho.  It appears to be more of a cool, hip college hangout than a holy and righteous place of G-d.  BTW, they supposedlky welcome everybody so should not be treating non-college people with contempt, like they do.  I just about knocked out this one snotty rich kid who started bitching at me for consuming kosher protein powder while I was at the synagogue.  This was after the moron told me he eats pork and shellfish and that it is no big deal.  I am like why are you b*tching at me for consuming kosher protein powder, when you admit you break some of the most important rules of kashrut and have no shame, eating pork and shellfish.     Then the guy starts mocking me for liking Israeli music and asks me what Mizrachi music or Mizrachi Jews are??  I am thinking to myself, do you know anything about Jews, besides the ones you grew up with in your liberal Amercian synagouge in the most wealthy city of the metro area???   He starts just laughing cause he deems me not cool as him and his spoiled bratty college friends.  He also was assuring me the Chabad is very liberal, easy-going and accepting.  I was like, I think you are getting carried away with how liberal you believe the Chabad to be.  This seems to be the mentality of him and the other snotty liberal college brats who populate this Chabad.  He then starts getting into a rant with his other college friends about how bad Christians are to gay people.   Keeping my mouth shut, I was thinking to myself, have you ever read what the Torah says about homosexuality, you idiot?

Now, to go bit deeper and explode on another tangent:
I have had no luck with any synagogue here in the USA.. Is Israel better??  Considering, how Westernized Israel is, I really doubt it.  I hear even most Mizarchi/Sefardi in Israel follow American Jewish culture, for most part.  Israel, supposedly is even more liberal than USA, as a country and is totally socialist/european in government.

I am actually considering just leaving "Modern/Western" Judaism and going my own way in life, giving up on the Jewish community altogether.  Afterall, we sell off our holy sites and let our women dress like sluts in our shuls and don't mind goyim coming without covering their heads in our holy places.  I am thinking modern Judaism is just a social gathering where people look for business partners or look for place to boast about their riches or family life.

As a religion, I feel we have become lost..  We have more or less let the goyim rule over our hearts and have dismissed the glory and power of Hashem.  We have submitted to the European and Islamic masters and now serve their demands and desires, not our own.    Until , we restore our ancient traditional minhag and zeal for glory, we will always be a suffering pathetic people.  We are much quicker to jab a knife into one of our own people to silence them for hurting our pride or insulting the feelings of our so-called friend then to unite and work together to overcome the great evil that seeks our destruction.

I am actually planning a trip to Yemen to find the long lost traditional Yemenite Jews who live there, because I feel if I fail, then I die and leave this wretched earth and if I succeed I can find the last remnant of real, traditional ancient Rambam-style Judaism left in this world.

G-d Save the Fools and Traitors who sell off their holy places to their enemies.   

There is no Aliyah to be made now, Israel is now in the hand of the Crusaders, we just fool ourselves thinking we own the land, when we are just , in fact, caretakers.   How and when have we become so lost in our ways and felt the desire to serve the evils of the world and its Avodah Zarah rather than to serve heaven and Hashem.
That was really funny, but  I have a bone to pick with you... You were complaining about how your Chabad wasn't Orthodox enough, but you're on the Computer on Shabbat?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Every Jew AK47

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That was really funny, but  I have a bone to pick with you... You were complaining about how your Chabad wasn't Orthodox enough, but you're on the Computer on Shabbat?

Check all my post dates and please tell me which one of them were done on Shabbat.  Remember I live in west coast USA.  Unless you believe Saturday evening when I made that last post still counts as Shabbat? 

BTW, I am not orthodox or claim to be.  However, I expect those who claim to be Orthodox and Shomer people to be what they claim.  Just as you challenged me by assuming I posted on shabbat, albeit wrongly.

I am the lowest of all Jews on earth and when I am corpse nobody will miss me.  Just one less poor like in the world.  Don't worry about trying to prove how shomer I am, as I will fail miserably.  You and everyone else here are better Jews than me.  Jews in general think they are better than everyone else.  We are arrogant people and we are suffering for it.  Go ahead and pick your bone with me, heck why don't ya just shoot me and put me out of my misery.  Kol tuv lecha.
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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I may be in the minority here but I don't think it's wrong in and of itself to be a fan of Harry Potter. A lot of conservative Christian kids are big HP or Lord of the Rings nerds.

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Check all my post dates and please tell me which one of them were done on Shabbat.  Remember I live in west coast USA.  Unless you believe Saturday evening when I made that last post still counts as Shabbat? 

BTW, I am not orthodox or claim to be.  However, I expect those who claim to be Orthodox and Shomer people to be what they claim.  Just as you challenged me by assuming I posted on shabbat, albeit wrongly.

I am the lowest of all Jews on earth and when I am corpse nobody will miss me.  Just one less poor like in the world.  Don't worry about trying to prove how shomer I am, as I will fail miserably.  You and everyone else here are better Jews than me.  Jews in general think they are better than everyone else.  We are arrogant people and we are suffering for it.  Go ahead and pick your bone with me, heck why don't ya just shoot me and put me out of my misery.  Kol tuv lecha.

Yeah he's not Jewish. And don't worry dude, however bad you think you are, I'm worse, and however miserable you think you are, I literally put people into depression with my stories. Don't speak lashon hara about your people though. If you want to be a tzadik and earn the merit to become one, before even shabbat or kosher food, you have to love Am Yisrael, and since we're all being judged and treated as one, no matter your situation or your sins, you have to start with loving yourself and being thankful that Hashem gave you the opportunity to suffer here in the world of lies so you can correct your midot and pay for your sins, and if you could only see what a great gift that this life of pain is and be thankful for what Hashem does to you, we will be well on our way to merit Olam Haba.
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Offline Every Jew AK47

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Yeah he's not Jewish. And don't worry dude, however bad you think you are, I'm worse, and however miserable you think you are, I literally put people into depression with my stories. Don't speak lashon hara about your people though. If you want to be a tzadik and earn the merit to become one, before even shabbat or kosher food, you have to love Am Yisrael, and since we're all being judged and treated as one, no matter your situation or your sins, you have to start with loving yourself and being thankful that Hashem gave you the opportunity to suffer here in the world of lies so you can correct your midot and pay for your sins, and if you could only see what a great gift that this life of pain is and be thankful for what Hashem does to you, we will be well on our way to merit Olam Haba.

LKZ, you say some wonderful and inspiring things here..  Maybe, I am just depressed, fed up, exhausted..   I don't know anymore, maybe i Just have given up on life..  I apologize for speaking lashon hara to my fellow Jews.. I guess being with them, I didn't feel they were truly, my "fellow Jews".  Nobody there liked me or really wanted to acknowledge my presence.. At most synagogues I am just ignored and dismissed as a poor, old , loser.   I have no money, unmarried at 36 and I didn't grow up in any prestigious or religious Jewish family.  I feel I am more or less useless in any western synagogue, especially in the USA.  I am more respected, appreciated and treated better by gentiles here than by my own Jews.  I ended up living with gentiles, because my own Jewish people felt I was useless to them. 

Maybe, after I do a trip to the Middle East and seek out long lost Jewish communities who can accept me, I can become a more learned and more traditional Jew..  I am planning on removing my western attire and starting to wear Yemenite attire.  I don't feel I should be wearing black during Shabbat anymore, but rather be dawning white garments.  I am a liberated man, not a man confined in the shtetl any longer.  Not that I hate shtetl life, it had many great aspects.   In our poverty and suffering in Europe, we were more humble , kind and devout people.    However, I don't want to be imprisoned any longer by Western culture.  I respect its goodness, but know as a Middle Eastern man, it is not my own culture.   Modern European Israeli culture doesn't count as traditional Judaic Middle Eastern culture in my eyes either.

I'm thinking in a year I will start my trip to Morocco , Tunisia and then Yemen.  If I survive in Yemen and succeed and finding Jewish community , my next stop will be Yerushalayim.   My friend David, who went to Yemen and visited the Jewish communities there, also said that Yemenite Jews still perform traditional shidduch and don't have huge income requirements like Ashkenazi/American Sefardi do.   I would like to marry a virgin girl, as I am a virgin myself..   I would like a traditional Yemenite Jewish marriage.


FYI, I never condemn a Jew for not keeping kosher or falling short of being perfect in halacha..  What irritated me was how proud this guy was about how he didn't keep kosher and how he starts yelling at me for contaminating the synagogue when he saw me take some kosher protein powder, because I needed it.  I do intense weightlifting and fitness and I cannot go 4 hours after workout without it.  The guy starts b*tching at me and yelling at me. I said, you proudly eat pig and shellfish and don't give a damn and you have chutzpah to chew me out over something that is kosher?  Check yourself first..

The guy went on to mock me for liking Israeli music and him and his little snotty, spoiled college friends were laughing at me like I was some old fool because I was talkign about Israeli songs I liked and didn't listen to all the new age cheesy crap that he and his skanky female friends listened to.  I was not insulting or mocking him at all, but he had the nerve to snicker at me and insult me.  He also was getting pissed at me for discussing anything religious.  Then going around promoting how Judaism accepts homosexuality right int he Chabad was really getting on my nerves.

I'm just sick at how liberal and watered down the Chabad is becoming where I live.  It seems most synagogues here the mitzvot performed or more just formality, once they are done with tefillot the people are back to talking about more important things.


BTW.. A few other questions, some of you who are more learned in Halacha can answer for me in regards to my comments about Jewish women/girls I see at the Kehillot:
1. What is the point of women wearing a scheitel for the sake of Tzniut, when they dawn a sexy, tight mini skirt that shows their hot round buttocks and sexy legs..  I mean, isn't the whole point of a scheitel for the sake of Tzniut, which are the mitzvot of modesty?   Some of the Chabad ladies wear just the most sexy outfits that will make any hormone-laden man ooze, trust me!!  I just don't get it..  Wouldn't it be more appropriate according to Tzniut for the woman to wear a less revealing dress rather than a wig??? 
2. Why is a wig considered fulfilling to Tzniut, when it looks like a real hair and arouses men and still gives the woman a look of sexual appeal.  WOuldn't a tichel or head covering be more appropriate for Tzniut?  Before the Sefardim/Mizrachi became Westernized and adopted Ashkenazi minhag, I hear they shunned the scheitel and would only have women wear tichel  or gargush/karkosh (Yemenite Jews).
3.  Does Torah prohibit women from wearing man-like clothing? Many women at the Chabads I have attended wear very tight, sexy looking jeans that show their round butts.   Not only is it sexually arousing to men, but the jeans are clothing that have been generations worn as male work clothing and have a somewhat masculine appearance, although most women wear them because they show body shape and are easy to wear.    I have read that Orthodox Jews, from all sides, Ashkenazi/Mizrachi forbid women wearing jeans, especially in the synagogue.  Any comments here? 


« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 06:56:23 AM by EveryJewA44 »
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Offline Israel Chai

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Yeah I know the feeling. Well actually, I literally don't have any happy time in my life to look at, so I don't know another feeling. If you were here in this world to enjoy life, you would be a monkey, so be happy that Hashem is giving you this suffering, because every second that you accept and are thankful for is endless rewards in the world to come. Considering rich and married people often are the most depressed, it never gets easier. If you stay loyal after everything you think you want doesn't come to you, it shows you can be trusted with infinitely more than what this world has to offer.

If you eulogize one of these Jews and start saying "he had lots of money, made so much, always looked very youthful and pretty, he took very good care of himself and spent a lot of time on it, and he had a bunch of friends, and hung out with everyone", they're going to boo you, and ask to hear things like charity and how good of a man he was inside, because everyone really know that's all fake. If they're faulting you for that, then B"H Hashem is not punishing you with friends like that.

Also, I'm pretty sure everyone is supposed to wear white on Shabbat to be like the angels. Also, I very strongly recommend you do not go to muslim countries. Without serious money there, it's extremely dangerous, and nevermind that muslim culture is barbaric and treats women like animals. You want hardcore Jews that don't worship vanity, move to the villages in the hilltop communities, and we'll be doing the ASK on you. Don't want to offend, but I'd be moving there and doing more than just sitting around if I was 36 and unmarried, and even at my age, I'm already considering things I can't say, that will at least bring some good out of this life.

And liberal Jews hate me too. They're allergic almost. That's fine by me. Most of the goyim I was friends with when I was younger sell crack or want to party... in a not good way for me, so I can't really hang out with them, and as a result I don't really talk to anyone outside of making money and this site. Lol the Jewish friends I made don't like me now either because I would go along with a stupid and harmful lie to their mother. That's to be expected. Anyone alive right now is a looser that failed before and is getting a last chance to save themselves from their punishment. I told a bus full of liberal Jews that we should kill gays, and then debated them all while they hated me more and more, because really, if they're going to hate you, might as well be fighting the good fight instead of about yourself. Who cares what they think about you anyways. If they think faggets are good, their sense of anything is to be ignored.

For your three questions, of course of course of course. People want to pretend they're righteous, so they do one religious thing to hide the fact that they dress like whores. It's common to see phony people today. Don't pay any attention, and look at the ground when they're dressed like that, even when you talk to them, because it's a major sin, and it goes to the girl's account too, but Rabbi Mizrachi says "she murdered you" by dressing that way, so it's damaging you too. As for wigs, they're allowed, but the reality will shock you. In Talmud, there's a story of a girl who make a wig out of straw. The Rabbis call her a whore, because it's too long. That should indicate what Judaism thinks about the hair some Indian girl sacrificed to her idol and was sold in Italy. Obviously, it's not modest at all, probably even less modest than their original hair. For the pants, personally I wouldn't be seen dead in girl jeans, so my opinion is that jeans for girls are allowed, but my opinion is worthless, and basically any Rabbi I can name will say they must wear a dress.

LKZ, you say some wonderful and inspiring things here..  Maybe, I am just depressed, fed up, exhausted..   I don't know anymore, maybe i Just have given up on life..  I apologize for speaking lashon hara to my fellow Jews.. I guess being with them, I didn't feel they were truly, my "fellow Jews".  Nobody there liked me or really wanted to acknowledge my presence.. At most synagogues I am just ignored and dismissed as a poor, old , loser.   I have no money, unmarried at 36 and I didn't grow up in any prestigious or religious Jewish family.  I feel I am more or less useless in any western synagogue, especially in the USA.  I am more respected, appreciated and treated better by gentiles here than by my own Jews.  I ended up living with gentiles, because my own Jewish people felt I was useless to them. 

Maybe, after I do a trip to the Middle East and seek out long lost Jewish communities who can accept me, I can become a more learned and more traditional Jew..  I am planning on removing my western attire and starting to wear Yemenite attire.  I don't feel I should be wearing black during Shabbat anymore, but rather be dawning white garments.  I am a liberated man, not a man confined in the shtetl any longer.  Not that I hate shtetl life, it had many great aspects.   In our poverty and suffering in Europe, we were more humble , kind and devout people.    However, I don't want to be imprisoned any longer by Western culture.  I respect its goodness, but know as a Middle Eastern man, it is not my own culture.   Modern European Israeli culture doesn't count as traditional Judaic Middle Eastern culture in my eyes either.

I'm thinking in a year I will start my trip to Morocco , Tunisia and then Yemen.  If I survive in Yemen and succeed and finding Jewish community , my next stop will be Yerushalayim.   My friend David, who went to Yemen and visited the Jewish communities there, also said that Yemenite Jews still perform traditional shidduch and don't have huge income requirements like Ashkenazi/American Sefardi do.   I would like to marry a virgin girl, as I am a virgin myself..   I would like a traditional Yemenite Jewish marriage.


FYI, I never condemn a Jew for not keeping kosher or falling short of being perfect in halacha..  What irritated me was how proud this guy was about how he didn't keep kosher and how he starts yelling at me for contaminating the synagogue when he saw me take some kosher protein powder, because I needed it.  I do intense weightlifting and fitness and I cannot go 4 hours after workout without it.  The guy starts b*tching at me and yelling at me. I said, you proudly eat pig and shellfish and don't give a damn and you have chutzpah to chew me out over something that is kosher?  Check yourself first..

The guy went on to mock me for liking Israeli music and him and his little snotty, spoiled college friends were laughing at me like I was some old fool because I was talkign about Israeli songs I liked and didn't listen to all the new age cheesy crap that he and his skanky female friends listened to.  I was not insulting or mocking him at all, but he had the nerve to snicker at me and insult me.  He also was getting pissed at me for discussing anything religious.  Then going around promoting how Judaism accepts homosexuality right int he Chabad was really getting on my nerves.

I'm just sick at how liberal and watered down the Chabad is becoming where I live.  It seems most synagogues here the mitzvot performed or more just formality, once they are done with tefillot the people are back to talking about more important things.


BTW.. A few other questions, some of you who are more learned in Halacha can answer for me in regards to my comments about Jewish women/girls I see at the Kehillot:
1. What is the point of women wearing a scheitel for the sake of Tzniut, when they dawn a sexy, tight mini skirt that shows their hot round buttocks and sexy legs..  I mean, isn't the whole point of a scheitel for the sake of Tzniut, which are the mitzvot of modesty?   Some of the Chabad ladies wear just the most sexy outfits that will make any hormone-laden man ooze, trust me!!  I just don't get it..  Wouldn't it be more appropriate according to Tzniut for the woman to wear a less revealing dress rather than a wig??? 
2. Why is a wig considered fulfilling to Tzniut, when it looks like a real hair and arouses men and still gives the woman a look of sexual appeal.  WOuldn't a tichel or head covering be more appropriate for Tzniut?  Before the Sefardim/Mizrachi became Westernized and adopted Ashkenazi minhag, I hear they shunned the scheitel and would only have women wear tichel  or gargush/karkosh (Yemenite Jews).
3.  Does Torah prohibit women from wearing man-like clothing? Many women at the Chabads I have attended wear very tight, sexy looking jeans that show their round butts.   Not only is it sexually arousing to men, but the jeans are clothing that have been generations worn as male work clothing and have a somewhat masculine appearance, although most women wear them because they show body shape and are easy to wear.    I have read that Orthodox Jews, from all sides, Ashkenazi/Mizrachi forbid women wearing jeans, especially in the synagogue.  Any comments here?
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Go to Morocco I could understand but Yemen? Do you know arabic? Yemen is very unsafe...

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EJA44,

This thread has really drifted 'off-topic' but I think it is important to address some of your concerns.

A Jew is not perfect, we never were intended to be perfect, and despite our imperfection Hashem still loves us and walks with us. Judaism is not a contest of 'holier than though' attitudes either. Some of your comments seem to draw comparisons between what you believe Judaism is supposed to be, and the failings of those you observe from attaining those lofty goals. We are commanded to be the best we can be, a slogan the US Army molded into 'BE ALL YOU CAN BE' which is a goal we all should try to attain. Hashem does not ask more from us than we can acheive, he gives us all we need to acheive our personal and national missions and it is up to us to make use of our G-d given talents to change the world in a positive way.

One of the main concepts of Judaism is caring for our fellow Jews, no matter how far or close they are to Hashem. Hashem says in the Torah to love our enemies (of course not physical enemies who want to kill us) and to not bear a grudge against them, we are to honestly and lovingly rebuke them in the attempt to return them to the correct path. We should not give rebuke which pushes a person farther from Hashem though, which is one reason rebuke is such a difficult commandment.

There are all kinds of bad issues within the Jewish communities, both the religious and irreligious. This is a fact of life and the Torah recognizes this. Only Hashsem knows what is truly in the hearts of men. Is a person pious or is he a sinner? We can only guess what the calculation Hashem uses to determine these issues.

My advice is always to work on yourself first, make yourself strong in your faith, make your mitzvot important to your lifestyle. Your making the mitzvot important to your life will have added effects on those who are around you. Work on your character traits in a way which makes you more dear to your fellow Jew, concentrate on the traits of compassion and mercy (two of the most revered traits of Hashem) and do not worry about stoning homosexuals. The laws concerning forbidden relationships is not as important as making yourself strong, and influencing others around you.

You should want to give money to your community, you should want to better the Jewish people around you. They are your family. It was this which led me to Teshuva, when a black Christian neighbor said 'Go back to your people'. The Jewish people are MY people, and they should be your people too.

I love all Jews, whether they put on Tefillin, say Shema, light candles, or not... Every Jew who was born Jewish has a portion in the world to come, and we should want to help them back on the path to listening to Hashems voice. We should feel personal responsibility when we see fellow Jews acting in a shameful way.

We should not try to shame them, embarass them, or hate them. We should think about what we can do to gently nudge them in the right direction and we will gain merit for every Jew we help.

I do not think it is a panacea to believe that joining a Yemenite community will solve all your problems. That is called idealism and usually a person is disappointed when they find out that the other community suffers almost the same problems as the community which you left. Always believing it is better in some other community leads many to depression.

Do not seek a community which is evil, but judge each one for the good. This is another Jewish concept, the benefit of the doubt... We should not assume that a person who is sinning is an evil person, he or she is just acting foolishly and will some day realize his or her sin....

I would like to help more but I think this thread is not the correct place.... Maybe we can talk in the Torah section about these topics.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter1-6b.html

G-d's Justice System
Chapter 1, Mishna 6(b)
By Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld

"Yehoshua ben (son of) Perachia and Nittai of Arbel received the transmission from them [the rabbis of Mishna 4]. Yehoshua ben Perachia said: Make for yourself a rabbi, acquire for yourself a friend, and judge every person favorably."

Last week we discussed the first two statements of the mishna, the importance of acquiring both a rabbi and a friend. As we explained, personal relationships with both role models and equals are crucial for proper intellectual and spiritual growth -- for taking the Torah's messages, bringing them to life, and applying them to real-life situations.

This week we'll discuss the final statement of the mishna -- judging others favorably. As an opening observation, this perhaps relates to the mishna's first two statements. Only one who can overlook his friend's (and even his teacher's) faults while learning from his positive traits will be able to develop positive and growing relationships. There is no such thing as a person you will look up to in every way. Only with generous doses of patience and forbearance can any meaningful relationship get off the ground.

The Talmud derives the principle of judging others favorably from a verse in Leviticus (19:15): "In righteousness shall you judge your fellow" (Shavuos 30a). In its literal sense, the verse is addressing judges. The Sages derive from this the importance of being fair and impartial to both litigants, not giving better treatment to either one during the court proceedings.

The Talmud, however, additionally sees this verse as a general directive to us all, that we "judge" our fellows favorably. For better or worse, we are constantly judging our peers based on their words and behavior, and often our verdicts are as harsh and condemning as those of the most rigid of judges. We are thus told to give others the benefit of the doubt, sometimes to bend over to see the good in our fellow where it is anything but readily evident. Perhaps he went into the MacDonald's to use the phone or bathroom. He acted that way because he had a rough day at work, or he is just not as sensitive about a certain issue as I.

Maimonides, in his commentary to the mishna, provides more precise guidelines for this obligation. There are three categories of people. An average person, who is neither particularly pious nor sinful (or at least is not known to you to be neglectful in the matter under question), must be given the benefit of the doubt only in situations in which there is reasonable room for doubt. If an act could go either way, judge him favorably. If, however, an act leaves little room for doubt -- and the person is not exactly known for his saintliness -- one need not find some farfetched favorable interpretation to his act. The Torah does not ask for naivete, that we ignore what is in front of our noses. (Blabbing out what you saw to all who will hear, however, is known as lashon hara, evil speech, and is an entirely separate (and rather severe) transgression.) However, it is meritorious to look for some favorable or extenuating factor even in such a case.

The second type of person is one known to be righteous. Maimonides writes that we must view him or her favorably even if the circumstances do not warrant it, even in the case where his behavior appears sinful. We should bend over to view such a person favorably. Even if he clearly did sin, the Talmud writes that one should assume he reconsidered and repented his deed by the morrow (Brachos 19a). (Needless to say, if his "sinful" behavior involves financial loss to others we do not just cheerily dismiss his behavior as somehow acceptable; we notify the appropriate authorities and let *them* decide. Our mishna's focus is on the courtrooms of the mind alone.)

The final category of person is one known to be wicked. In this context, we define wicked as one who publicly and unashamedly flaunts his religion, and does not do so out of an ignorance of the true depth and beauty of Judaism. (As contemporary rabbis observe, it is actually difficult to find a person who fits the build today. Apart from the almost universal ignorance of Judaism as a whole today (whether or not someone has heard there are Orthodox Jews with long beards and coats in New York somewhere), a person today could have easily been raised to an Orthodox family and in an observant neighborhood -- and somehow never truly grew into what Judaism is all about. And there may not have been anyone there to properly guide and inspire him during some of the crucial early stages of his life. You cannot really pick up meaning and spirituality from your environment. It does not just seep in. We must each discover it for ourselves -- no matter who our parents and our teachers were or are.)

Regarding such a person, there is no obligation whatsoever to judge him favorably. He is not "your fellow" as referred to in the verse. In fact, we must rather bend over the other way in condemning his actions. We must always be wary that he is trying to create a respectable image so as to avert suspicion from his behavior -- and to entice others to his wicked ways.

The Talmud teaches us further: "Anyone who judges others favorably will be judged favorably in Heaven" (Shabbos 127b). This follows the general principle that G-d rewards and punishes us "measure for measure" (Mishna Sotah 1:7). If we are patient and understanding with others, G-d will act in the same manner towards us. If not, G-d will get his cues, so to speak, from our own behavior. Sadly, G-d's method of judgment is only too just.

However, this presents a difficulty. When we judge others favorably, aren't we giving the benefit of the doubt because we *don't* know all the facts? We saw him walk into a MacDonald's and we don't know what happened next. Perhaps he went in for a soda. He was not in synagogue on Yom Kippur. Perhaps he wasn't feeling well. He made an inconsiderate remark. Perhaps he doesn't know how sensitive that issue is to me, perhaps his boss just yelled at him, etc. But G-d *does* know all the facts; there is no room for doubt. He knows the circumstances, the background, and all that preceded and followed. How can G-d judge us favorably when it involves overlooking what to Him are clear, hard facts?

The answer is that giving the benefit of the doubt is not only a matter of overlooking or interpreting details. It stems from an attitude. When we judge others, we are setting our own personal justice system. If I am constantly finding fault and criticizing others, I send a message to G-d. Shortcomings should be noticed and highlighted; there's no room for mercy and tolerance. And G-d allows us to fashion the very justice system with which He views us. If we see only the bad in others, we bring upon ourselves the very judgment which we, in our minds, visit upon others daily.

If, however, we view others favorably, we send an entirely different message to G-d. I know Joe is basically a good guy. He means well. Therefore, it is not likely to me that he actually did something wrong. And if he did, it is probably because he didn't really know better or he finds such behavior more challenging than I.

When we view others in such a manner, it sends a different message to G-d. I know Your creations are good human beings. They stumble and fall at times, but I have not lost faith in them as a result. They mean well, and I'm sure they'll pick themselves up again and try harder. And this is the attitude we should only wish G-d would have towards us. He (more than anyone else in creation) knows that human beings are basically good creatures. We have good souls and active consciences. If we recognize the innate goodness in others, chances are we will see it in ourselves equally well. And G-d will as well judge us mercifully. He knows we are His faithful servants regardless of our many slips and falls. We'll bounce back -- G-d knows we can do it -- and He knows as well that we can recognize this ourselves. And if He has that trust in us, we might just live up to His expectations.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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I will add this description and commentary of the famous 'Hillel & Shammai' question of 'love your fellow'...

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/ahavas-yisroel/08.htm



To Love A Fellow Jew
The Mitzvah of Ahavas Yisrael in Chassidic Thought
Chapter 7
Hillel And Rabbi Akiva


The Torah on One Foot

The Talmud in tractate Shabbos 31a relates the following well-known story of Hillel:

"On another occasion it happened that a certain heathen came before Shammai and said to him, "Make me a proselyte, on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot."[1] Thereupon he chased him away with the builder's cubit that was in his hand.[2] When he came before Hillel, (he also asked Hillel to teach him the entire Torah while standing on one foot) Hillel replied, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Torah while the rest is commentary; go and learn it."[3]

While it is clearly suggested in the Talmud that ahavas Yisrael is the entire Torah and the rest is commentary, this statement of Hillel requires clarification.

It is well known that the 613 Commandments may broadly be divided into two categories: between man and G-d, and between man and man. The mitzvah of ahavas Yisrael is obviously fundamental in the realm of mitzvos between man and man; however, how can it be suggested that it is the entire Torah - that it also applies to mitzvos between man and G-d?

The Great Principle

On the verse, "Love your fellow as yourself," the classic commentator Rashi quotes from Toras Kohanim, an early Midrashic text regarding the famous dictum of Rabbi Akiva: "Love your fellow as yourself - Rabbi Akiva says this is a great principle of the Torah."[4]

It is well known that Rabbi Akiva lived many years after Hillel. One may therefore ask: If Hillel has already stated that ahavas Yisrael is the entire Torah and the rest of the Torah is just commentary, what has Rabbi Akiva added in his statement by saying that ahavas Yisrael is a "great principle" of the Torah? Surely this idea is already included in the words of Hillel.[5]

Bring Them Near to the Torah

We will answer the above questions by first introducing another famous saying of Hillel.[6]

"Hillel said: Be of the disciples of Aharon, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving your fellow creatures, and bringing them near to the Torah."

One may ask, what is the connection between "loving your fellow creatures" and "bringing them near to the Torah"? The mitzvah of ahavas Yisrael tells us to show concern for another in all matters both material and spiritual. The Baal Shem Tov taught that one must look to do a favor for another without making it conditional on spiritual achievement or circumstance.[7] Why then does the mishnah make this connection?

One way of explaining it is to say that the mishnah is giving a directive as to the boundaries of ahavas Yisrael: fulfilling the mitzvah of ahavas Yisrael should never be an excuse to "dilute" the words or ways of the Torah to the ways of the people, rather the opposite: one must draw the people nearer to the ways of the Torah.[8]

According to this explanation, however, the words "and bring them near to the Torah" are peripheral to the concept of ahavas Yisrael, explaining only the parameters of ahavas Yisrael. The plain meaning of the mishnah instead implies that "bringing them near to the Torah" is not merely tangential but rather a direct consequence of "loving your fellow creatures," i.e., ahavas Yisrael reflects itself and is demonstrated in "bringing them near to the Torah."[9]

The question is made even stronger with the explanation in chapter 32 of Tanya which states that ahavas Yisrael must be in a way of realizing that the other Jew possesses a soul which, in its source, is one with all other souls, which explains why ahavas Yisrael has no limits and applies to the great as well as the small - and as the Mezritcher Maggid says[10] - one must love the perfectly wicked just as the perfectly righteous. If ahavas Yisrael must be independent of the Jew's standing in his G-dly service, why then does the mishnah state that ahavas Yisrael must manifest itself in "bringing them near to the Torah"?

First in Thought

The explanation:

There is a well-known saying of the Sages:[11] "The thought of Israel preceded any other." This means that when G-d created the world, Israel preceded Torah in His thought.

On the other hand, the Zohar[12] teaches: "Israel connects with the Torah, and the Torah connects with G-d," which seems to suggest that Torah precedes Israel.

Chassidic philosophy[13] explains: In their source, Israel stands higher than the Torah. However, as souls descend below, Torah is higher than Israel, and the connection of a soul to G-d is through Torah.

This explanation elucidates the two opposites in a Jew:

1) Since in his source a Jew stands higher than Torah; therefore, "A Jew even though he has sinned is still called a Jew."[14] No number of sins can rid the Jew of the title "Jew," because the connection of the Jew's essence with G-d is not dependent upon his observance of Torah and mitzvos.[15]

2) It is this very essential connection that brings every Jew ultimately to do teshuvah,[16] and since the connection of a soul with G-d is through the Torah (once the soul descends into a body), eventually the essential connection will bring every Jew to keep the Torah and mitzvos.[17]
Opposites Reflected

These two opposites reflect themselves in the Mitzvah of Ahavas Yisrael.

The essence of ahavas Yisrael is the love for the soul as it stands in its source united with all other souls, and as it stands above Torah. That essential love therefore transcends Torah observance and extends itself even to those who are distant from the Torah. On this level, there is no differentiation between a tzaddik and a rasha. Furthermore, the love is not limited to the spirituality of the other Jew but even extends to his material requirements, for even his material requirements are those of a Jew (as we view the soul in its essential state.)

However, since the connection of the soul with G-d - as it descends below - is through Torah, therefore ahavas Yisrael becomes a mitzvah of the Torah, (i.e., we must love a fellow Jew as an imperative of the Torah[18]). The mitzvah then contains within it all the limitations that the Torah places upon us; for example, the idea mentioned above not to "dilute" the Torah to make it more accessible.

We can now understand the teaching of Hillel: "Love your fellow creatures and bring them near to the Torah." Although one must have ahavas Yisrael independent of any standing or levels of observance (because of the essence and source of the soul as explained above); nevertheless, once the soul descends below, its connection to G-d is through the Torah. Therefore, one cannot suffice with ahavas Yisrael from the sole perspective of the soul's essence, but should try to bring one's fellow Jew to a full connection with G-d through the Torah, which recognizes his soul's connection here below.

A true sense of unity will only be felt if all Jews connect themselves with G-d through the Torah. If a Jew remains "distant from the Torah," one must still love him because of his essence, his essence being higher than the Torah; however, true ahavas Yisrael will bring him to a full connection with G-d, and that is accomplished by drawing him near to the Torah. Once a Jew has a connection with G-d through the Torah, his essential bond with G-d can be fully revealed.

The Difference Between Hillel and Rabbi Akiva

We will now understand the difference between the sayings of Hillel and Rabbi Akiva.

Rabbi Akiva was talking about the mitzvah of ahavas Yisrael that must be observed by a Jew in a body, i.e., with all the limitations and directions of the Torah. Therefore, he cannot state that ahavas Yisrael is the entire Torah for if so, it could override other rules of the Torah (just as saving a life can override all other rules) and as previously mentioned that is not the case. On the level of Torah, ahavas Yisrael is only a "great principle of the Torah" - a principle which must be carried out under the directives of the Torah.

Hillel, however, was talking about the essential level of ahavas Yisrael, where the Jew stands higher than Torah. On that level, the whole purpose of the Torah is as a means to reveal the essence of the Jew. Since a Jew's essence is revealed by the mitzvah of ahavas Yisrael, it can therefore be said that it is the entire Torah and the rest is explanation; that is, that the rest of the Torah is the vehicle through which the essence of the Jew is revealed as exemplified in the mitzvah of ahavas Yisrael.

(Adapted from Likkutei Sichos, Vol. 17, pp. 215-224)

Quote
Quotes

From the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov: one cannot estimate the amazing power of Ahavas Yisrael. Friends who together arouse heavenly mercy for another friend in distress have the power to tear up a 70-year heavenly decree. They can turn a curse into a blessing and death into long life.

(Sefer HaToldos of the Previous Rebbe, Vol. 1, p. 131)

Ahavas Yisrael was the primary "Avodah" of the disciples of the Baal Shem Tov. Each of the disciples had to acquire for himself a good friend. The Baal Shem Tov trained even the simple Jews to have Ahavas Yisrael - always to look upon another only with a favorable eye.

(Igros Kodesh of the Previous Rebbe, Vol. 3, p. 269)

So, too, in matters affecting a person's relations with his fellow, as soon as there rises from his heart to his mind any animosity or hatred, G-d forbid, or jealousy, anger, or a grudge and the like, he allows them no entrance into his mind and will. On the contrary, his mind exercises its authority and power over the feelings in his heart to do the very opposite, namely, to conduct himself towards his fellow with the quality of kindness and a display of abundant love to the extreme limits, without becoming provoked into anger, G-d forbid, or to revenge in kind, G-d forbid, but rather to repay the offenders with favors, as taught in the Zohar, that one should learn from the example of Yosef towards his brothers.

(Tanya, ch. 12)

Therefore, my beloved and dear ones, i beg of you to make an effort with all your heart and soul to drive into your heart the love for one's fellow man, as it is written (Zechariah 8:17): "And none of you should consider in your hearts that which is evil to his fellow man." Such consideration should never rise in the heart, and if it does rise, one is to push it away from the heart "As smoke is driven away" and truly like an idolatrous thought, for to speak evil is as grave as idolatry, incest, and the shedding of blood combined. if this be true of speech....; And the advantage of thought over speech, whether for the good or for the better, is already known to all the wise of heart.

(Tanya, Iggeres HaKodesh, Epistle 23).

On the above, from Iggeres Hakodesh, ch. 23, where the Alter Rebbe writes, "Therefore, my beloved and dear ones, I beg of you to make an effort with all your heart and soul to drive into your heart the love for one's fellow man," the Tzemach Tzedek comments: "One who drives Ahavas Yisrael into his heart becomes a beloved friend of the Alter Rebbe."

(Sefer HaSichos 5704, p. 22)

The Tzemach Tzedek once said to his son the Rebbe Maharash: For one who helps another Jew in his livelihood, even if he helps him earn a mere 70 kopeks (a low-value Russian coin) on a calf, all the gates to the heavenly chambers are open for him. Years later the Rebbe Maharash added: one ought to know the route to the heavenly chambers, but actually, it is not crucial. You only need the main thing: to help another wholeheartedly, with sensitivity, and to take pleasure in doing a kindness to another. (HaYom Yom, p. 66)

The Tzemach Tzedek once said: Aleph, Beis, Gimmel, Daled. Aleph stands for Ahavah/love. Beis stands for Berachah/blessing. Gimmel stands for Gaavah/arrogance and Daled stands for Dalus/poverty. Where there is love there is blessing; where there is arrogance there is poverty.


(Igros Kodesh of the Rebbe, Vol. 4, p. 312)

The Rebbe Maharash once said: of what good is chassidus and piety if the main quality, Ahavas Yisrael, is lacking - even to the extent of causing (G-d forbid) anguish to another?

(HaYom Yom, p. 77)

Once the Rebbe Rashab instructed his son the Previous Rebbe to travel to a particular place to help a particular chassid and businessman. When the Previous Rebbe returned he told his father, "I have done everything you told me. I did the favor in the best manner possible." The Rebbe Rashab replied, "You are making a mistake. The favor you have done is a favor for yourself, not for the other. The A-lmighty has done the favor for the other; he arranged emissaries to fulfill the divine providence. The favor you have done is for yourself as it says in the Midrash (Vayikra Rabbah 34:10), "More than the house owner does for the poor man, the poor man does for the house owner."

(Igros Kodesh of the Previous Rebbe, Vol. 4, p. 46)
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14