Author Topic: Israeli "reality show" star in love with Sudanese Muslim, hates Ashkenazim  (Read 26779 times)

0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
http://www.torah.org/advanced/mikra/5757/br/dt.58.1.03.html

VII

KARET - VIOLATION OF THE SPECIAL NATURE OF AM YISRA'EL

The punishment which is introduced (along with death) into the Shabbat vocabulary in our Parashah is Karet - excision. Whatever Karet may mean, it implies some sort of disconnection or excommunication (by God) from the people of Yisra'el.

The first occasion where Karet is found (explicitly; it may be the notion behind Man's exile from Eden) is in B'resheet 17. Avraham is commanded to circumcise himself and all of the males in his household, and "If any male fails to circumcise the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off (root: K-R-T) from his people; he has broken My covenant." (17:14)

Karet here seems to be the natural result of communal disassociation - since this individual is unwilling to demonstrate his fellowship with the people of Avraham via circumcision, he is, indeed, separated from them.

The second occurrence of this punishment (although not mentioned explicitly until later, in Bamidbar 9:13) is failure to participate in the Korban Pesach (Pesach offering). Here again, the individual who doesn't see himself as a member of the people and does not identify with their destiny and history is excised from the people.

These two Mitzvot 'Aseh (which are the only two which carry this punishment for non-fulfillment), in combination, serve as rituals which affirm the individual's identification with- and allegiance to - the history (Pesach) and mission (B'rit Milah) of Am Yisra'el. (Rabbi Soloveitchik zt"l refers to two covenants - the B'rit Goral - covenant of fate - and the B'rit Yi'ud - covenant of destiny - shared by all members of K'lal Yisra'el.)

Put together, we see that Karet is a punishment given by God to someone who denies the special Godly character of the B'nei Yisra'el.

This can be seen in several of the Mitzvot Lo Ta'aseh which carry this punishment. Karet is the indicated Divine punishment for entering the Mikdash (or eating sancta) while in a state of Tum'ah; in the same way, performing some of the rituals unique to the Mikdash outside carry this punishment. See, for instance, earlier in our Parashah (30:33,38); using the special formula for the K'toret (incense) or Shemen haMish'chah (anointing oil) for your own purpose makes the violator liable for Karet.

One other example of this Karet-communal identity connection is found in the laws of Yom haKippurim. Someone who fails to afflict himself on that day of atonement is excised from the people. "Indeed, any person who does not afflict himself throughout that day shall be excised from among his people" (Vayyikra 23:29).
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
EJA44 and Chaim are TOTALLY correct.

This woman is no longer Jewish. She is karet. She is a rodef. She is worse than Gentile Nazis. If she and Eichmann were trapped in a burning building and I were forced at gunpoint to save one of them, I won't answer who I would save. THAT is how satanic this whore is, ok?

End of story.

Yeah I know who you'd save.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
EJA44 and Chaim are TOTALLY correct.

This woman is no longer Jewish. She is karet. She is a rodef. She is worse than Gentile Nazis. If she and Eichmann were trapped in a burning building and I were forced at gunpoint to save one of them, I won't answer who I would save. THAT is how satanic this whore is, ok?

End of story.

Do you have a scriptural source from Tanakh or Talmud to support the statement 'This woman is no longer Jewish'?

I have never heard that a soul can shed it's Jewish nature. Even a very wicked Jew is still a Jew when they die.

A Jewish soul which has sinned is judged with ultimate judgement for its sins which instilled hatred against Jews.

Also can you prove to anyone that she rises to the level of the halachic term 'rodef'? I am not familiar with what she has done to warrant that accusation. Are you interpolating what you think she may think onto what was really done or said?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Do you have a scriptural source from Tanakh or Talmud to support the statement 'This woman is no longer Jewish'?

I have never heard that a soul can shed it's Jewish nature. Even a very wicked Jew is still a Jew when they die.

A Jewish soul which has sinned is judged with ultimate judgement for its sins which instilled hatred against Jews.

Also can you prove to anyone that she rises to the level of the halachic term 'rodef'? I am not familiar with what she has done to warrant that accusation. Are you interpolating what you think she may think onto what was really done or said?

I think they can excommunicate you like they did with Kissenger, but I've heard from Lubavitchers that that doesn't actually do anything. Everything about his comment was unacceptable, but the picture of her holding a "I acknowledge the nakba" certificate may make her rodef, even if she doesn't realize it.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
I think they can excommunicate you like they did with Kissenger, but I've heard from Lubavitchers that that doesn't actually do anything. Everything about his comment was unacceptable, but the picture of her holding a "I acknowledge the nakba" certificate may make her rodef, even if she doesn't realize it.

Nobody can 'excommunicate' a Jew today. There is no Jewish body which has the power to do it. Although within a community a person can be excommunicated (only in social issues).

I just checked out the facebook page and it may be...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
  I didn't follow this whole thread but 2 things I would like to say.
 1)  I don't like the thinking that Sefardim look at themselves as part of the 3rd world. That's completely not true.
 2) She going  him is completely wrong for her, but this isn't always the worst thing (not for her personally but for Am Yisrael). A healthy body needs to expel the garbage out. I just hope that she leaves the land of Israel and doesn't associate at all with Am Yisrael. May her and other trash like that just vanish permanently from Am Yisrael. Perhaps this is one of the bad parts of having Israel especially when its run by the garbage. Hard to recycle (or sh^t) them out. Its like a bad dose of constipation but at least eventually it get's out completely.
" I don't like the thinking that Sefardim look at themselves as part of the 3rd world. That's completely not true. "

I know! I had to cry myself to sleep last night, after I came to realize that Paula Abdul was not White! Next thing I know... Bullcat and cjd are not going to be White! What the heck is going on? I have been lied too!

P.s. I know Brennan Fan didn't mean it the way it came out...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
From jlaw.com :

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/excom2.html


II. Jewish Law on Excluding

Classical Jewish law offers a broad variety of penalties for those who violate the law. The Bible has four different types of death penalties7 for a variety of offenses, some of which one could hardly describe as "criminal8." Generally, those offenses for which death is not the prescribed punishment, were punished by whipping according to Jewish law9. A small number were punished by karet, a divinely mandated punishment which humans had no hand in, and some violations were not punished at all10. Beyond those penalties found explicitly in the Bible, a Jewish court had available makot mardut, literally the whipping of a rebel -- a process that allowed the court to punish a person who defied the law -- through judicially mandated beatings11. So too, a Jewish court had available the kipah, a (sort of) Jewish version of "three strikes and your out," where a person who was a repeat offender could be (informally) killed if he violated the law with impunity12.

All this is no more. Jewish law has not had the judicial authority to punish people in any of the manners described above for nearly two thousand years13. Indeed, Jewish law has functioned for the past two millennia with only two real jurisdictional bases to punish violations: the "pursuer" jurisdictional grant, and excommunication or shunning14. The pursuer rationale (in hebrew: rodef) is the jurisdictional source of power for a Jewish court or community to intervene15 to prevent a murder16. That area of Jewish law is widely known and much written about17, and irrelevant to the formation of a sub-society in modern times, as the class of cases it governs are crimes that are nearly always also violations of basic general moral principles and thus subject, on a practical level to concurrent jurisdiction within secular society and its organs of government. Thus the normal response -- even in a very insular, fastidiously observant, Jewish society -- to a murder would be to call the police18.

This paper concerns itself with the remaining power Jewish courts are left with to address the routine problems involved in formation of a sub-society -- excluding people from the sub-society, typically through excommunication and shunning19. The ability to form a sub-community, and to exclude people from that community is a power that can frequently encourage conduct in ways that formal law itself either cannot or will not accomplish. Jewish law and culture was quite aware of that fact, and designed within its legal and ethical system rules that relate to the use of social pressure. A recent case arising in the rabbinical courts of Israel demonstrates this well, and presents itself as a modern -- but classical -- example of the power of a Jewish court to order social shunning of a person whose conduct is not in full compliance with the ethical dictates of Jewish society. The Supreme Rabbinical Court in Israel is discussing what to do in a situation where a divorce seems proper, and is desired by the wife, but yet the husband will not co-operate in the processing of the divorce20. The court states:

Quote
In the appeal21 which was presented before us on January 7, 1985, the court did not find sufficient cause to compel22 the husband to divorce his wife. The Court did, however, try to persuade the man, who is religiously observant, that he follow the proper path and to obey the decision of the court [that it is proper for him to issue the divorce], for it is a good deed to heed the words of the Sages who religiously obliged him to divorce his wife and that he has chained his wife needlessly23. The court gave the husband an extension of three months within which to grant a divorce to his wife. However, when the Court saw that three months passed without response, we instituted the separations of Rabbenu Tam as found in the Sefer HaYashar (Chelek HaTeshuvot §24) which states:

Decree by force of oath on every Jewish man and woman under your jurisdiction that they not be allowed to speak to him, to host him in their homes, to feed him or give him to drink, to accompany him or to visit him when he is ill.....

We added to these strictures that no sexton of any synagogue in the area where the husband resides be allowed to seat him in the synagogue, or call him to the Torah, or ask after his welfare, or grant him any honor. All people are to distance themselves from him as much as possible until his heart submits and he heeds to voices of those instructing him that he grant his wife a divorce . . .

And so it was done, at which time the husband submitted and granted his wife a divorce24.

This case involved the use of the communal sanction of mild shunning to encourage a person who wished to be part of the religious community in Israel25 to obey the mandates of Jewish law and ethics. A person who felt no desire to belong to the community, and thus was not threatened by the possibility of exclusion from it, would not have reacted in the manner this person did. The sanction would have had no effect.

One should not think that such methods of persuasion occur only in Israel. For example, in the case of Grunwald v. Bornfreund26 the plaintiff sought an injunction from the Federal District Court prohibiting the:

Central Rabbinical Congress of the United States and Canada, its Rabbinical Court and its members (the "Rabbinical Congress"), and defendants from making any efforts to have plaintiff withdraw his action from this Court and submit it to a rabbinical or ecclesiastical court and from temporarily or permanently excommunicating plaintiff, his counsel, and staff27.

Modern rabbinical courts can and do excommunicate. Indeed, excommunication and its lesser cousin, shunning, remain valid expressions of religious will within the Jewish community to this very day, and they are used to express communal disdain for a person's actions28.

Three different issues must be addressed, each of which is central to the question of why and how Jewish law exclude people from its religious sub-community:

The functioning of the power to exclude in Jewish law;
The balance developed in Jewish law between the right to form a community of like minded people and the right of those who wish to deviate from the practice of society; and finally
The insistence of American and Canadian constitutional law that civil and criminal authority not be given to insular religious groups to be used by those groups to control its members and prevent religious deviation -- and how Jewish law responds to that directive.
The Talmud discusses the legal rules related to shunning in some detail29; as time passed the legal rules have grown in detail and purpose30. One over-arching theme emerges from a review of the legal discussion: unlike the many forms of punishment found in classical Jewish law, the purpose of the exclusion process was to deter future violations of Jewish law -- primarily by other members of society, but also by the excluded person. Punishment and retribution as aims were not thought to be part of the process, as they were in classical Jewish criminal law31.

Any analysis of the rules relating to excluding people from the Jewish community, immediately draws one to two major issues constantly raised in the Jewish law discussion of shunning. These two issues demonstrate the purpose of exclusion:

May one shun or excommunicate a person when the shunning process might (or will) drive this person completely away from the religious community or religious observance?32; and
May one shun or exclude the relatives of a person in order to encourage the person to cease his or her activities?
These two questions are central to the seminal issue of this paper: what is the purpose of excluding people from the community?

The problem of excluding people from the community when they will abandon religious observance in response to such treatment is part of a very important discussion as to whom Jewish law is seeking to deter through the process of excommunication. Is it the person who is flaunting community standards, or is it the community at large that will witness the person's exile from the community, and thus be deterred? If it is the former, then one does not shun a person who will abandon the faith when shunned; if it is the latter, then that factor is not relevant. Indeed, this discussion reflects the ultimate reality concerning all shunning cases: in modern times and democratic countries, the penalty of exclusion only works on the one being shunned if he or she desires the approbation of the faith that is excluding him.

This fact itself reflects a profound historical change in the purpose of excluding people from the community. In other historical eras, it has been remarked that: "it is said that a person on whom an excommunication ban lies can be regarded as dead."33 Indeed, flogging was perceived as a more merciful punishment than excommunication in classical Jewish law34. In a closed and tightly knit community, surrounded by a generally hostile society, exclusion from the Jewish community was a very severe penalty. Due to its severity, many classical Jewish law authorities simply would not shun or excommunicate under any circumstances35. This has changed in post-emancipation times. As noted by a secular critic:

Shunning and excommunication became so common in the later centuries that they no longer made any impression and lost their force [to the uncommitted]. They became the standard rabbinic reaction to all forms of deviation or non-conformity considered incompatible with or dangerous to Orthodoxy As such, they are sometimes imposed by extreme Orthodox authorities at the present day, but as neither the person afflicted nor the public at large regard them as bound by them, they have ceased to be a terror or have much effect36.

Particularly in our modern society, a person who is shunned can simply leave the community and join a different community adhering to different religious principles37.

Rabbi Moses Isserless, one of the codifiers of Jewish law, writing in his glosses on Shulchan Aruch38, resolves the issue of the purpose of exclusion by stating:

We excommunicate or shun a person who is supposed to be excommunicated or shunned, even if we fear that because of this, he will bring himself to other evils [such as leaving the faith].

The rationale for this is explained clearly by later authorities. The purpose of the shunning or excommunication is to serve notice to the members of the community that this conduct is unacceptable, and also, secondarily, to encourage the violator to return to the community. In a situation where these two goals cannot both be accomplished, the first takes priority over the second39. This is true even in situations where there is a reasonable possibility that the person will leave the Jewish faith completely and simply abandon any connection with the community to avoid the pressures imposed on him. The shunning and excommunication can be said to have accomplished its goals in such a situation -- even if the shunned person continues in the path of defiance and leaves the faith community40. Not unexpectedly, the vast majority of civil suits related to excommunication involved people who have left the faith community in response to their exclusion41.

It is worth noting that there is a minority opinion to the contrary which rules that one should not shun or excommunicate a person who will leave rather than be excommunicated. Rabbi David Halevi, writing in his commentary Turai Zahav42, states that he disagrees with the approach of Rabbi Isserless, and in his opinion it is prohibited to shun a person when one suspects that the person shunned will withdraw from the Jewish community in response43. However, many commentators, while noting his remarks, make a crucial distinction as to why people might be excluded. They note that while as a matter of theory one could be shunned or excommunicated merely for violating any law, or even for avoiding a financial obligation44, in fact, that is not how and why exclusion is used. Exclusion, these authorities state, is used as a deterrence, to prevent other people from violating the law, and is no longer used as a method of punishment. Thus, these authorities note that Rabbi Halevi's point is true, but inapplicable. In a case where a person is violating the law, and the punishment imposed will drive him further away -- but there is no other community value at stake -- it might be that Rabbi Halevi's point is correct that it is prohibited to punish by exclusion. However, such is no longer the purpose of shunning and excommunication; inevitably, more is at stake than this single person's violation45.

It is important to note one other factor. The process of shunning or excommunicating individuals relates not solely to their violation of religious law, but also to their apparent status as members of the community in good standing46. For example, Jewish law reserves the right, as a matter of jurisdiction, to assert that any Jew who willfully deviates from Jewish law may be excluded. However, the law is established that such shunning or excommunication does not, in fact, occur unless it is actually pronounced by a Jewish court, and such pronouncements are not forthcoming unless the person started as a member of the faith community and now is publicly deviating from it in a way designed to hinder communal organization47. Thus, in modern times vast numbers of Jews are distant from any version of traditional Judaism, happy with that status, and yet are not under any decree of excommunication48; the few who are excluded, appear to be people who are deeply insiders within the faith but yet are actively dissenting49.

Other religions adopt similar postures regarding who should be excommunicated. For example:

The Church [Jehovah's Witnesses] has four basic categories of membership, non-membership or former membership status; they are: members, non-members, disfellowshiped persons, and disassociated persons. "Disfellowshiped persons" are former members who have been excommunicated from the Church. One consequence of disfellowship is "shunning," a form of ostracism. Members of the Jehovah's Witness community are prohibited -- under threat of their own disfellowship -- from having any contact with disfellowshiped persons and may not even greet them. . . . "Disassociated persons" are former members who have voluntarily left the Jehovah's Witness faith. . . . disassociated persons were to be treated in the same manner as the disfellowshiped50.

The status of "non-member" is considerably better as a matter of legal status than that of one who joins and is expelled or wishes to leave, at the very least in terms of the need to shun this person51. This is consistent with the essential purpose of shunning and excommunication in the Jewish tradition: to establish a religious community. Non-members do not disrupt such a community: dissenters do52.

The second issue that needs to be addressed within the Jewish tradition is whether one may shun the relatives of a person in order to encourage the person to cease his disruptive activities. This situation also crystallizes the purpose of this treatment. (As a general matter, classical Jewish law prohibits punishing an innocent person as a way of punishing another person for a violation of the law.53) Thus, the question is, whether shunning really is a form of punishment, or is it some other type of activity not bound by the jurisprudential rules of punishment?

Once again, Rabbi Isserless adopts the legal rule that posits that punishment is not the goal. He states:

It is within the power of a Jewish court to order [as part of a shunning] that a violators children not be circumcised, that his dead not be buried, that his children be expelled from the school, and that his wife be removed from the synagogue until he accepts the ruling of the court54.

Thus, Rabbi Isserless endorses exclusion not only of those who defy the community, but also recognizes that people can be excluded from the community when their inclusion, through no fault of their own, will prevent the formation of the community55. Letting the close family of an excluded person participate in the religious sub-community -- using its synagogue, cemetery or schools -- still allows the "excluded" person to be part of the community although he is "excluded."

By no means, however, is this the only ruling possible. Commenting on this phrase, Rabbi David Halavi, writing in his classical commentary Turai Zahav, states:

Heaven forbid this. The world is only in existence because of the studies of children in school. It makes sense to prohibit circumcising children, as that obligation is solely the father's;56 the same is true for burying his dead .... However, studying by children has no restitution... So too, to exclude his wife from the synagogue is improper; If he sinned, what was her sin?57

Clearly this approach assumes that the use of excommunication and shunning is a form of judicial punishment, subject to the general rules regulating the fairness and propriety of any given punishment. Indeed, this ruling by Rabbi Halevi is consistent with his analysis, discussed above, which prohibited exclusion when the person will leave the community in retaliation58. It is predicated on a judicial model of exclusion bound by the rules of punishment.

Rabbi Isserless, and those authorities who follow his view, simply assume that the normal rules regulating judicial punishment do not apply in the case of shunning and excommunication -- not because on a practical level the innocent person is not hurt, but because on a philosophical level, exclusion is not punishment. Such an approach is recounted in a recent article by Rabbi Hershel Schachter, where he agrees with Rabbi Isserless's ruling. He states:

He [the one being shunned] would agree to obey the law, in the particular area which he is remiss, in order to afford his wife and children a proper religious environment. Using the children as leverage is not to be confused with punishing them unjustly59.

The question is why is leverage not to be confused with punishment? Certainly from the perspective of the children or spouse, they are -- for all apparent purposes -- being punished. The point that is being made goes to the purpose of the shunning or excommunication, rather than its apparent impact. The purpose is to compel communal cohesiveness, and to exclude people who prevent it. In a situation where shunning relatives would have no impact on the conduct of the principal and would not de facto admit the person to the community, such conduct is prohibited60.

In summary, Jewish law has an institution called shunning and excommunication whose goal is to exclude people from the community who seek to dissent from central tenets of the community. However, it is not used as a form of punishment, and does not have its origins in any judicial institutions. It is designed to encourage people to conform to communal norms or cease to be part of the religious sub-society61.

This section demonstrates that exclusion was used primarily to create communal unity. In the next section, further proof is adduced to that proposition by a review of the grounds found in Jewish law to exclude. It will be shown that the types of violations that exclusion was warranted for are those that relate to community formation. It was not the seriousness of the offense that determined whether one was excluded; it was the communal effect.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
" I don't like the thinking that Sefardim look at themselves as part of the 3rd world. That's completely not true. "

I know! I had to cry myself to sleep last night, after I came to realize that Paula Abdul was not White! Next thing I know... Bullcat and cjd are not going to be White! What the heck is going on? I have been lied too!

P.s. I know Brennan Fan didn't mean it the way it came out...
Thanks for being the one sane voice in this thread Ephraim and not choosing to assume the worst. As for everyone else who is bashing me for taking Chaim's position, I want to know why you're all at JTF.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Let us look into what Rambam says about the halachic status of excommunication or ostracism.



http://www.torah.org/learning/rambam/talmudtorah/tt6.12.html

Rambam

Rabbi Yitzchok Etshalom
Talmud Torah 6:12

[intro1: Within the Halakhic system, there are two types of social exclusion: *Nidui* (ostracism) and *Herem* (excommunication). The practices which apply to someone under one of these bans are presented in TT 7:4-5] [intro2: Any court-based punishment has a requirement of testimony. The witnesses must not only testify that the perpetrator committed the transgression, they must also testify that he was warned immediately prior to the transgression (the witnesses themselves may do the "warning"). This warning must include the transgression and its penal consequences. The perpetrator must verbally acknowledge this warning in order to be liable for the punishment. This warning is known as *Hatra'ah*.]

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Thanks for being the one sane voice in this thread Ephraim and not choosing to assume the worst. As for everyone else who is bashing me for taking Chaim's position, I want to know why you're all at JTF.

I missed it, who exactly is 'bashing' you?

I see people have become a bit sensitive over what seems to be nothing.

It is possible to agree with Chaim and also have your own opinion too.

If you see my very first message in the thread I clearly state that there are informers and heretics who we are supposed to curse. I have done nothing but support Chaims case.

But I also do not join in cursing her (by name) for the reasons which LKZ has mentioned. While I surely condemn her for her choices I also believe she (as all those born a Jew) has hope for making teshuva. That is between her and Hashem, and I join those who condemn her...

I don't know why these threads always end up so personal...

PS: Read what I wrote in a previous post about cursing the informers and heretics versus cursing a person by name.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Thanks for being the one sane voice in this thread Ephraim and not choosing to assume the worst. As for everyone else who is bashing me for taking Chaim's position, I want to know why you're all at JTF.

Yeah in a thousand years I won't trust you. Also, I don't recall anyone attacking you on Chaim's positions, just on the other things you've said, but by now I'm sure you know that, and keep defending yourself with lies on purpose.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Well the kids will be Jewish. And Torah says, little monsters. This is a tragedy. Trash or not, if her zivug was announced in heaven before she came to the world, Hashem clearly wanted her to marry a Jew, and that is what would be good. Nothing short of right is right and what's not right is wrong. Saying that massive intermarriage of sick Jews is even a worse strategy to save the Jewish people than mass murder.

 Where did I say that mass intermarriage is a good thing? I said that those who are soo sick that they marry out, perhaps its a good thing to get ride of the refuse and not have them associated with us (Am Yisrael) at all. Let them be total goyim for all I care.
 That being said their should still be kiruv and people telling and spreading the Torah and bringing Jews back to the Torah, but their still will be those that will completely leave etc. and its not always the worst thing possible. To be a Jew is a privilege and not a burden. If some leave, then let them leave. Like I said before a healthy body also needs to expel the sh^t out.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Let me guess what Brennan fans point was...

Let's say you're in school, you are a native of India. All the kids are Northern European, but one kid, he is a minority as well. Who are you going to be able to relate to first?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Where did I say that mass intermarriage is a good thing? I said that those who are soo sick that they marry out, perhaps its a good thing to get ride of the refuse and not have them associated with us (Am Yisrael) at all. Let them be total goyim for all I care.
 That being said their should still be kiruv and people telling and spreading the Torah and bringing Jews back to the Torah, but their still will be those that will completely leave etc. and its not always the worst thing possible. To be a Jew is a privilege and not a burden. If some leave, then let them leave. Like I said before a healthy body also needs to expel the sh^t out.

Of course you didn't say such a thing (G-d forbid), but as I said earlier in Kahanesque style, this woman is a concept, not a person. She represents the broken, brainwashed and sick beautiful Jewish women that have become filled with ugliness, because there isn't anywhere to get the truth from. This woman may have the soul of Sarah our mother, but never get a chance to do anything with that. Torah can't be forced, but if there was a Jewish state, I'd bet 90% of the secular women would become righteous. You can't say it's good for a Jewess to give up a privilege she never knew.

You know that the Sephardic Jew were religious, and are now considered refuse. How easy it would be to bring them back. This woman, though there's the possibility she is really evil to the core and then deserves what's been said, is more than likely a victim of the same evil secular system. If someone's legs are tied, you don't curse them and kick them out of a race for not running, you untie them, and see what they can do first. The world hates them for being Jews, the seculars hate them for their Jewish background, and they hate themselves. The solution is not hating them for the person they've been twisted into, the solution is to love that Jewish soul and plant it in real earth instead of the acid bath that the society offers.

We need Kahanism in Israel and a Jewish government not because we want to punish secular and insane Jews, but because we want kiddush Hashem and our family to be strong. I don't think any *actual* Kahanist Jew disagrees with me on this. If we wanted to kill secular Jews, we could do that right now, no need for a government. Surely, you don't want a political platform to kill half of the shrinking Israeli Jewish population, or even a quarter or tenth. It's the same as dying if they intermarry and are lost to us. I don't want a single one more intermarriage. G-d forbid it happens.

If a body starts having chunks die off, it's not healthy. G-d takes care of cleaning up. When intermarriage was at 75% in Germany, we should have been perfectly healthy then. Then there was ha shoah.

I think there's been some misinterpretation about my intentions here, so allow me to lay them out. Kahane was electable. Judaism is desirable. If you run on a death to Arab-lovers platform, you're not, and reading this, the 500k check to run isn't getting signed.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Let me guess what Brennan fans point was...

Let's say you're in school, you are a native of India. All the kids are Northern European, but one kid, he is a minority as well. Who are you going to be able to relate to first?

It's not a legitimate question, because Jews are supposed to be separate, so if you change that kid to a Sephardic Jew, the answer is none.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Every Jew AK47

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1138
  • Am Kahane Chai!
    • Good Music!
Oy vey..  I am really growing sick of this thread..  Also, Muman, I respect you and think you have a good heart and a lot of knowledge, but the fact you believe a traitor to the Jewish race has the ability to do teshuva, regardless of their actions is mind-boggling and I am sure also contradicts many of the teachings of JUdaism.  I have met people, including lesbian rabbis who think they can interpret the Talmud or Torah in any way, shape or form to promote their cause, it doesn't mean I will agree with them, even being a beginner in halachic knowledge, I can recognize some core foundations of our faith, as I have read the entire Jewish Bible and do have the basic knowledge.

Now, the most practical of examples.  What about one of the heads of the Luftwaffe?  HItler's right-hand man, was a German Jew (Jewish mother) who had his documents forged by Hitler, himself, because of how valuable he was to the Nazi war machine, being one of the most important generals in Hitler's military.  This vile Judenratt of Judenratts was responsible for the death of 6 million Jews and was one of the reasons for Hitler's many successes in WWII..  According to all your interpretation of Halacha, this man can make teshuva too?  You must know the man I am referring to, his name is Erhard Milch.

This is the nazi Jewish scumbag who with his allegience to Germany declared war on the Jewish people and Judaism.. Still a Jew you say???


I guess all those verses in the Tanakh of traitors being executed are just for reading entertainment and today traitors should be pampered, cuddled, kissed and loved because they have emotional problems and need some good Jewish family counseling..

Well, you want to hear what I say, BULLSH**T!!!

DEATH TO ALL TRAITORS!! JEWISH, GENTILE, WHATEVER!!!
Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
You are right EJA44, you have a lot to learn when it comes to Torah and Talmud...

You cannot just say stuff and claim it is the truth. Everything I have said is 100% true according to Talmud & Torah.

You have no concept of who can make Teshuva and who cannot. You have never attended a Yom Kippur service or else you never listened to the Rabbi discuss how Teshuva works. You only think you know what it means... And this is why you have so many problems understanding Judaism.

I can bring you many Talmudic examples of Jews who went astray and returned, and their Teshuva was eventually accepted. But you don't want to hear it because you just want to hate another. If that is not true you sure don't express yourself very well.

As an informer and a denier of Torah she is cursed as a part of this group. But when cursing others you should be extremely aware that your own sins will be judged for the negative. That is your choice, and you will live with it.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 10:01:26 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
This thread should be DONE!

All it seems like to me is a bunch of instigation!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 10:02:18 PM by אפרים בן נח »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
EJA44,

Bring some examples of those traitors who were executed and we can discuss what the teachings of the Talmud are.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Every Jew is a Jew to the day he dies... This is a fact of the Torah. Deniers of Torah are considered heretics.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
beautiful Jewish women that have become filled with ugliness, because there isn't anywhere to get the truth from. This woman may have the soul of Sarah our mother, but never get a chance to do anything with that. Torah can't be forced, but if there was a Jewish state, I'd bet 90% of the secular women would become righteous. You can't say it's good for a Jewess to give up a privilege she never knew.

You know that the Sephardic Jew were religious, and are now considered refuse. How easy it would be to bring them

 Wait again, why or who considered Sefardic Jews "refuse"? Just because she is of Sefardic background doesn't mean or make her representing Sefardim.

 Back to #1, beautiful? LOL.  And what or how Sarah Emeinu? First off as you know I don't believe in "reincarnation" and secondly this is her actions. She choose them. No one is kicked her out. She is doing it to herself.
 
 Torah CAN be forced but that's a different topic.
 This isn't about secular vs. religious topic.
 
 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1269075/jewish/Is-a-Jew-Who-Converts-Still-Jewish.htm

Is a Jew Who Converts Still Jewish?
By Zalman Nelson

My sister was baptized and has since married and had a child. My mother claims the child is Jewish, but how could that be? If Judaism is a religion, if someone leaves it, she’s no longer Jewish, right?

Response:

Logically, I would have to agree with you. If Judaism is a religion, then someone who doesn’t believe in the religion should be no longer Jewish. The reality, however, is that it doesn’t work that way.

Throughout the Tanach, we find Jews breaking every facet of their covenant with G‑d, joining and forming all sorts of idolatrous cults and heathen practices. Yet when the prophets chide them, they are called “My people, Israel.”

The Talmud1 focuses in particular on the precedent of a notorious character named Achan, who appears in the story of the fall of Jericho.2 “Israel has sinned,” exclaims G‑d. “They have transgressed My covenant that I commanded them.” Yet in the story’s narration we discover that the lone sinner is Achan, who took from the spoils of Jericho. The Talmud points out that nevertheless Achan is considered “Israel,” and remarks, “Israel, although he has sinned, is still Israel.”

The choice of precedent is poignant and the wording laden with subtle meaning: Achan has broken “My covenant that I have commanded them”—interpreted by the Talmud to mean not only one detail, but the entire covenant of Torah. Yet he remains not only a Jew, but “Israel”—the entirety of the Jewish People in a single individual.

The principle extends not only to genealogical Jews, but converts as well. In Tractate Yevamot3 we learn that once a person has fulfilled all the requirements of a proper conversion, he is considered “like Israel in all matters.” The Talmud explains those last words to mean that even if this convert would return to his pagan ways, “if he marries a Jewish woman, he has the same status as an apostate Jew, and they are considered married.”

Why does the Talmud choose to discuss Jewishness in terms of whether or not a marriage is valid? This is also precise: When it comes to having this Jew slaughter meat for you, or relying upon him in other areas of kosher and similar matters, his status may indeed be the same as that of a non-Jew. But those are technicalities, dependent on extraneous factors. Marriage, however, is the real test of Jewishness. Even if a non-Jew would marry a Jew with a chupah and a rabbi presiding with all the procedures “by the book,” the marriage does not have the validity of a marriage sanctified in accordance with Jewish law. Saying that “they are considered married” is the best Talmudic language available for “Yes, he is still Jewish.”

Based on the above statement of the Talmud, the Jewish Code of Law4 rules that a marriage between a Jewish man and a Jewish woman who “convert out” is completely valid. Therefore, their children are considered Jewish and could also marry other Jews.

Which brings us to your case, where a Jewish woman has joined another religion and married a non-Jew. In this instance, as well, since Jewishness is matrilineal, her children are considered Jewish.5

Apparently, Jewishness is about neither religion nor race. Unlike a race, you can get in, but unlike religion, once you’re in you can’t get out. As with Achan, once you are a part of this people, you are the entire people. As Israel is eternal, so your bond with them is irreversible, unbreakable and eternal.

FOOTNOTES
1.   Sanhedrin 44a.
2.   See Joshua 7:1–26.
3.   48a.
4.   Shulchan Aruch, Even Ha-ezer 44:9.
5.   Rema, ibid.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
EJA44,

Ask yourself this question and try to answer it...

Why did Hashem allow Ishmael to live when he was dying of dehydration in the desert when he and his mother Hagar were thrown out of Avraham and Sarahs house? Hashem could have let him die there, he knew that in the future his children would be enemies of his beloved people Israel, yet he saved him...

The ways of Hashem are beyond our comprehension. We should curse those who fall within the parameters where such curses are warranted. But we should not allow our curses against Jews to become a matter of hatred.

I say again that her sin is great and her wickedness is condemnable... I curse her as a informer and heretic. But I do hold hope that she one day will rectify her sins.

Remember that everything that happens only happens because Hashem allows it to happen. We must follow the law of Hashem, and keep the Torah, and when we do we will destroy the evil.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Oy vey..  I am really growing sick of this thread..  Also, Muman, I respect you and think you have a good heart and a lot of knowledge, but the fact you believe a traitor to the Jewish race has the ability to do teshuva, regardless of their actions is mind-boggling and I am sure also contradicts many of the teachings of JUdaism.  I have met people, including lesbian rabbis who think they can interpret the Talmud or Torah in any way, shape or form to promote their cause, it doesn't mean I will agree with them, even being a beginner in halachic knowledge, I can recognize some core foundations of our faith, as I have read the entire Jewish Bible and do have the basic knowledge.

Now, the most practical of examples.  What about one of the heads of the Luftwaffe?  HItler's right-hand man, was a German Jew (Jewish mother) who had his documents forged by Hitler, himself, because of how valuable he was to the Nazi war machine, being one of the most important generals in Hitler's military.  This vile Judenratt of Judenratts was responsible for the death of 6 million Jews and was one of the reasons for Hitler's many successes in WWII..  According to all your interpretation of Halacha, this man can make teshuva too?  You must know the man I am referring to, his name is Erhard Milch.

This is the nazi Jewish scumbag who with his allegience to Germany declared war on the Jewish people and Judaism.. Still a Jew you say???


I guess all those verses in the Tanakh of traitors being executed are just for reading entertainment and today traitors should be pampered, cuddled, kissed and loved because they have emotional problems and need some good Jewish family counseling..

Well, you want to hear what I say, BULLSH**T!!!

DEATH TO ALL TRAITORS!! JEWISH, GENTILE, WHATEVER!!!

What a fitting day to make this statement. Lag ba Omer, which in part is about Rabbi Akiva, was a complete chiloni who did terrible things. He became one of our greatest Rabbis, and was arguable second to Moshe Rabbeinu in righteousness. If you read my previous posts you'd know that I know a very evil person who made teshuva, and that's myself. I never had to opportunity to learn a thing about what Judaism was. No one said anything. Online, I would sometimes say conspiracies I had heard, and people cursed me, and of course the people filling my head with nonsense said their anger and insults were proof that they were right.

Sometimes, evil people don't have to make teshuva. One of the most evil people of his time, a son of Nimrod the murderer and self-proclaimed idol, started a massive store to sell idols, and would convince everyone he could to take up idolatry. That was the father of Avraham aveinu, and if he was killed as he deserved, you wouldn't have anyone here to curse.

Violating shabbat is worse than being a traitor. We should both receive the worse execution possible from Torah, and we've merited an eternity of gehinom. Teshuva was created before the world, because you're right, it doesn't make sense, and that's because it's above the laws of nature. Anyone who wants to truly be righteous and tries is accepted, and not only are they not punished, it's as if it never happened, and if they make teshuva because they find Torah, and do it out of a love of Hashem, then all their evil actions turn into merits and become good. So, yes, I'm telling you if that nazi traitor decided to make teshuva after killing a hundred Jews, and kept all the mitzot and didn't sin, he would be as righteous as Rabbi Akiva, who died l'shem shamaim at the hands of the Roman murderers with Shema Israel on his lips.

The only thing that will keep you from making teshuva and regaining your share in the world to come is if you have the chance, and you say "I will do it later", because Hashem is not a game to play with, and he will not help you make teshuva, and since you need his help to breathe, it becomes impossible.

That being said, a Nazi like this should have been killed. Talking about him does raise the question again if this girl is rodef. That guy was rodef. She may be rodef to an extent by holding up this sign, but she is maybe trying to look "socially conscious" and "goodhearted" to other traitor leftists, and doesn't even realize what's going on. Therefore, we're rodef if she is, because we're letting her be murdered by not leaving everything and running to tell her the truth. So maybe we can't make a rabbinical ruling that she's rodef. I need a Muman interjection here.

Love for a Jewish soul like this who is a traitor doesn't involve pampering. It involves first telling them the truth, then giving at least three compliments, and then mixing how evil she's become with all the rewards and good that she earns if she makes teshuva. If Rabbi Kahane had been in power until today, there's no question that traitors would be executed as such, but when the president is a traitor, and their lesbian "Rabbi" or teachers bless him, they think they're doing the right thing.

Someone can be punished for violating the law in ignorance, but you can't fault him. It's a reduced sentence. If someone like this makes teshuva, by the way, the suffering they'll endure to correct their evil is almost as bad as what shabbat violators are sure to experience (if their teshuva is real) in this world. If you spend your entire life, and accomplish nothing but making one baal teshuva, you did a great job. By that, it's worth it to at least try to tell the truth, instead of saying "die".

What do you think will happen, 1. if you go to her facebook page and tell her she should be boiled in [censored], or 2. if you give her words of Torah and try to reason with her to accept reality? Not just to her, but to your sisters that she represents on her page?
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Rabbi Kahane ZT"L said in a speech that some animal who was president of Israel called the Sephardic Jews "trash". Also, I couldn't imagine why anyone thinks she represents anything but leftism and self-hatred. She has a beautiful Jewish soul, no matter how it is poisoned, and ugly sins are written across her face now. Still, many a Jewish man would consider her beautiful, and if she became righteous, would be happy to have her as a wife. That's what we want, remember? Not for them to die, but to marry Jews.

I don't care what you do or don't believe within Judaism. I was making a point. If you don't like the analogy that she could have a spark from the soul of one of the most righteous women ever, then you can pretend I said that she has the best and kindest heart in the world instead, and fit that into the sentence. You'll probably misunderstand again, but whatever, I'll keep explaining, not that complicated. And of course she bears the consequences of her actions. Eternally. Even if she makes teshuva, that's shame forever. Still, according to Rabbi Mizrachi, if someone is raised as a goy in public school or kibbutz, they have the status of a child stolen in a war, and can't be held accountable as Jews for what they're doing, because they don't know any better. This applies to mitzvot, not treason, because it's common sense, but since the government is treasonous, she thinks she's doing the right thing, and it could also apply. She needs to hear the truth, and then we can bless or curse her on her response to it. Until then, she suffers the consequences of her actions, but can't actually be blamed for them.

Why doesn't someone go out as a JTF ideological missionary (not stinks or everyJew) and see how she responds to the truth in the Torah-prescribed method I described above?

When can Torah be forced without a Jewish state and a normal society?


Wait again, why or who considered Sefardic Jews "refuse"? Just because she is of Sefardic background doesn't mean or make her representing Sefardim.

 Back to #1, beautiful? LOL.  And what or how Sarah Emeinu? First off as you know I don't believe in "reincarnation" and secondly this is her actions. She choose them. No one is kicked her out. She is doing it to herself.
 
 Torah CAN be forced but that's a different topic.
 This isn't about secular vs. religious topic.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge