They are getting closer to the Torah

[Ehud]

MassuhDGoodName, with all respect, the signs of these intermediate species can not only be seen in fossils, but in animals alive on the earth today. 

Why are there humans that are starting to be born without appendices?

There are species of river dolphins that still have vestiges of limbs and there are still vestiges of limbs on whales. 

Of course there are always going to be bogus evolutionary theories, but that doesn't discount evolution completely.

[Dexter]

I need to read more about evulotion, I ghess sites of Creationism influinced me too much because i'm not so familier with this subject, thanks Ehud 

[Ehud]

How can you admit that homosapiens and homo habilis existing in an overlapping time period and then still they that one evolved from the other over millions of years. The artilce itself recognizes the fallacy of that.

If evolotion is so messy as this article suggests than it ceases to be the simplest explanation for how we got to this point and that makes it unscientific. Science is supposed to always look for the most simple explanation of a phenomena.

The more their evolutionary tree get's mucked up the more the Bible's version of the events looks to be the most simple and logical.

First of all, homo sapiens are homo habilis NEVER existed at the same time, at least according to this article.  The article discusses homo habilis and homo erectus.  How could homo habilis and homo erectus existed at the same time?  Because there were some who evolved into homo erectus and some, maybe in a geographically isolated location, who stayed as homo habilis.  You see this sort of "macro-evolution" every day with various species all over the world.

Just because some creatures evolved doesn't mean that there can't still be the original members that they evolved from.  To think that it has to be that way is a logical fallacy when it comes to evolution.

There are plenty of examples on the earth today of animals that are related closely, one evolved from the other, but the original animal still exists. 

There are birds on geographically separate islands where one bird evolved from the other in order to meet the needs of the local environment, but the other bird on the other island (the one that the other bird evolved from) still remains in its original form. 

I'm sure there are other examples of this, I don't claim to be an evolutionary expert.   

[Ehud]

I need to read more about evulotion, I ghess sites of Creationism influinced me too much because i'm not so familier with this subject, thanks Ehud 

You have plenty of time to learn about it if you seek to, Dexter.   

The amount you already know far exceeds not only people your age, but even educated adults!

[Ehud]

I don't believe evolution and the Torah to be at odds at all. 

When G-d created man in his image, that doesn't mean that he created homo sapiens at that time.  There were homo sapiens that were around before that time, but they didn't necessarily have the capability of understanding G-d.  That's what I believe the Torah to be saying. 

Not coincidentally, there was a rapid genetic transformation that occurred around 6000 years ago that gave homo sapiens the ability to greatly expand the cortex of his brain, which controls abstract reasoning among other things, and which would give him the ability to understand G-d.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...There are species of river dolphins that still have vestiges of limbs and there are still vestiges of limbs on whales..."

Calling small useless nubs "vestiges", is simply projecting one's view of an "evolutionary theory" on to a specimen, without offering proof that The Creator simply "designed the species intelligently" from the very outset.

Perhaps the nubs have a purpose that only Ha'Shem understands, considering that no academician has ever brought forth a fossil of a humpback whale with shrinking legs wearing rubber boots to keep its feet dry.

Humans being born without apendices indicates the symptoms of drug usage (both pharmaceutical as well as illegal), and the deleterious effects of constant electromagnetic radiation bombarding humanity.  It is certainly not an "evolutionary" development to prove that humans don't need to walk anymore now that they can buy a car.

[Ehud]

Re:  "...There are species of river dolphins that still have vestiges of limbs and there are still vestiges of limbs on whales..."

Calling small useless nubs "vestiges", is simply projecting one's view of an "evolutionary theory" on to a specimen, without offering proof that The Creator simply "designed the species intelligently" from the very outset.

Perhaps the nubs have a purpose that only Ha'Shem understands, considering that no academician has ever brought forth a fossil of a humpback whale with shrinking legs wearing rubber boots to keep its feet dry.

Humans being born without apendices indicates the symptoms of drug usage (both pharmaceutical as well as illegal), and the deleterious effects of constant electromagnetic radiation bombarding humanity.  It is certainly not an "evolutionary" development to prove that humans don't need to walk anymore now that they can buy a car.

What you say is possible as well of course.  I'm not trying to put forward anything definitive, here.  Just things to consider.

[Lubab]

When G-d created man in his image, that doesn't mean that he created homo sapiens at that time.  There were homo sapiens that were around before that time, but they didn't necessarily have the capability of understanding G-d.  That's what I believe the Torah to be saying. 

Not coincidentally, there was a rapid genetic transformation that occurred around 6000 years ago that gave homo sapiens the ability to greatly expand the cortex of his brain, which controls abstract reasoning among other things, and which would give him the ability to understand G-d.

Some of this stuff you write in this post is very problematic with the Midrashic and Talmudic view of the account of creation.

In the Torah view. Adam was the first. He was human as we are. And he was also the most capable of knowing G-d in many ways.

[Lubab]

Some might be interested to know that in the Torah view, apes evolved from humans, not the other way around.

G-d turned Kain into an ape when he killed Hevel (Abel), the Midrash tells us.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Regardless of how one feels about the validity of the theory of evolution, there are simply too many proofs that the age of the Universe measures in the billions of years for any credible belief that the cosmos is only 5767 years old, to be legitimately maintained.

What I'm curious about is where the idea that Torah tells us the Universe is only a few thousand years old comes from.

Why is a Universe that is billions of years old incompatible with Torah ?

[newman]

Regardless of how one feels about the validity of the theory of evolution, there are simply too many proofs that the age of the Universe measures in the billions of years for any credible belief that the cosmos is only 5767 years old, to be legitimately maintained.

What I'm curious about is where the idea that Torah tells us the Universe is only a few thousand years old comes from.

Why is a Universe that is billions of years old incompatible with Torah ?

Rabbi Blech says the Earth is billions of years old because Torah says G_d created the world in six 'periods' or phases not actual Earth 'days'.

Modern man with free will is only 6,000 years old even though humanoid creatures existed before then.

[RationalThought110]

lubab, I love you, but you're in complete denial if you honestly believe the Earth and the Universe is 5767 years old.

The soul of Man is 5767 years old.

The Universe is BILLIONS of years old.

It's my understanding that's in agreement with Torah.

There were only 3 creations.

The creation of the physical Universe and the laws of nature.

Then later, the souls of animals.

And finally, the soul of Man.

It's the creation of the soul of Man, 5767 years ago, that we celebrate on Rosh Hashanah.

The insistence that the Earth is only 5767 years old is very disturbing.

What about the scientist we were discussing a few weeks ago who disagrees with evolution theories?

You stated:   "Regarding Gerald Schroeder:

Here is a streaming audio link to a symposium Dr. Schroeder gave in Jerusalem, discussing the apparent contradictions of the Biblical account of creation, and the age of the Universe as revealed in Genesis, with what modern science has to say on the matter.

Dr. Schroeder makes an extremely lucid and powerful argument showing why the Biblical account of creation, and the age of the Universe, are actually supported by the latest scientific findings.

This is truly an amazing tape and must listening for those interested in this subject matter.

http://ra.colo.idt.net/simpletoremember/misc/Dr_Gerald_Schroeder-Genesis_and_the_Big_Bang.mp3

"


I didn't hear the "Ask JTF" but a few weeks ago, but I believe DannieCookie asked Chaim about question.  Do you recall what Chaim's response was? 

[RationalThought110]

Rabbi Blech says the Earth is billions of years old because Torah says G_d created the world in six 'periods' or phases not actual Earth 'days'.

Modern man with free will is only 6,000 years old even though humanoid creatures existed before then.

This makes sense.  It was 6 days from G-d's perspective in the center of the universe.  Time is relative to where it's measured from.  On earth it may have seemed like millions of years but from the center of the universe only 6 days.

[Dr. Dan]

GD might have have done anything unexplainable...and yes that might be true...

but i have to otherwise respectfully disagree with you. Accepting science doesn't mean rejecting Gd...Accepting science which might sound we are rejecting Torah may simply be our misinterpretation of Torah.

Evolution can be true. G-d might have caused it. Lubab What do you think about the dinosaurs? Do you think that the world is literally 5767 years old?

Yes I do think the world is 5767 years old.

The dinosaurs may have existed and been destroyed by the flood. Or G-d may have created the world with those fossils already in the ground.

See: http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=1276

[Sarah]

Science is Gods method of logically puzzling the world together.....there isn't any need to not believe in a creator just because "science" seems to be the answer. Who created science?

[Dr. Dan]

I, personally, believe evolution to be a total sham for the "enlightened" to discredit HaShem.  If one looks into the dictionary "evolution" or "evolve" means to change.  If I said that a worm, under the proper environmental conditions, can change into a man in a flash....you'd laugh me under the table.  Now the starting DNA of a worm does not change if one knows genetics and the end variable; a man's genetics are also stable therefore the only variable condition is time.  So if a worm cannot change/"evolove" into a man in a matter of seconds, hours, days, years ect. why then is it all the sudden believable if one says a million years?  The facts do not add up.

They have found many bones from crocodiles that date back to the age of the dinosaurs but they have not changed whatsoever when compared with the skeletons of today's crocodiles.  Therefore they have not "evolved" at all but a monkey "evolved" into a man?  It is a load of rubbish that wouldn't have gotten off of the ground if Marx, and the other enlightened academics, didn't take to its dialectical theories to disprove G-d. 

Every example of "evolutionary" man is a fraud: Lucy, Piltdown man, Navada man, Neanderthal Man etc. all frauds... 

imo... HaShem created different species and for whatever reason he got rid of them and started anew...  there is no evidence that man existed when the dinosaurs were walking the Earth therfore they must have appeared after but not "evolved"....  slime doesn't "evolve" into an elephant....  sorry.. my ranting...

Our current understanding of evolution isn't as you described above.  All living creatures have DNA and genes which are capable of undergoing mutations for the better or for the worst.  Some genes and behaviors have allowed certain family of species to survive and continue creating the same progeny which eventually resulted in a new species.  This doesn't take over night..takes millions of years possibly.

Listen, Gd created us from dust...What is dust made out of? Carbon, Water, Nitrogen, Oxygen Hydrogen.  You add some electricity and methane gas to that, you can pretty much create the building blocks of life: protein, nucleic acids etc...and that's the beginning ..bacteria ->single celled eucaryotes --> etc.  over billions of years that's how humans came to be..that may be Gd's magical way of creating life and all animals and plants...IF Gd wanted to just go zap here and zap there, it wouldn't seem as special to you and me.  However, the magical way to start with one cell without a nucleus until it gets to things that look like what we have today and humans which can create big tall buildings and make machines move on their own..and wow! the things we humans have done!  Now that's more amazing...a miracle...a huge huge huge huge..that Gd isn't just all powerful...that He's clever...the way He build's things.  And the fact that He can give humans the ability to create beautiful music and beautiful art and beautiful poetry...love...etc...i mean from a single cell prokaryote you get us..WOW.  I mean if we understood Gd to just create life as Zap here and Zap there...we has humans would never undertand patience.  Gd was patient in the way He created us...as we all should be patient in waiting for the Moshiach.

[Dr. Dan]

I need to read more about evulotion, I ghess sites of Creationism influinced me too much because i'm not so familier with this subject, thanks Ehud 

Dexter, evolution will show you Gd's masterpiece..not disprove it.

[Dr. Dan]

Some might be interested to know that in the Torah view, apes evolved from humans, not the other way around.

G-d turned Kain into an ape when he killed Hevel (Abel), the Midrash tells us.

Fascinating! Never thought of it that way...certain animals evolved from humans...

however...as it is written in the Torah, Animals were created first, THEN Adam THEN Eve.

[Dr. Dan]

lubab, I love you, but you're in complete denial if you honestly believe the Earth and the Universe is 5767 years old.

The soul of Man is 5767 years old.

The Universe is BILLIONS of years old.

It's my understanding that's in agreement with Torah.

There were only 3 creations.

The creation of the physical Universe and the laws of nature.

Then later, the souls of animals.

And finally, the soul of Man.

It's the creation of the soul of Man, 5767 years ago, that we celebrate on Rosh Hashanah.

The insistence that the Earth is only 5767 years old is very disturbing.

What about the scientist we were discussing a few weeks ago who disagrees with evolution theories?

You stated:   "Regarding Gerald Schroeder:

Here is a streaming audio link to a symposium Dr. Schroeder gave in Jerusalem, discussing the apparent contradictions of the Biblical account of creation, and the age of the Universe as revealed in Genesis, with what modern science has to say on the matter.

Dr. Schroeder makes an extremely lucid and powerful argument showing why the Biblical account of creation, and the age of the Universe, are actually supported by the latest scientific findings.

This is truly an amazing tape and must listening for those interested in this subject matter.

http://ra.colo.idt.net/simpletoremember/misc/Dr_Gerald_Schroeder-Genesis_and_the_Big_Bang.mp3

"


I didn't hear the "Ask JTF" but a few weeks ago, but I believe DannieCookie asked Chaim about question.  Do you recall what Chaim's response was? 

Ooo, good memory..i sense I have a fan amongst the midst of JTFers ..

Chaim's basic response was, "Who cares?" Gd caused miracles..He wants us to be a certain way for the ushering of the Moshiach.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Rabbi Blech says the Earth is billions of years old because Torah says G_d created the world in six 'periods' or phases not actual Earth 'days'.

Modern man with free will is only 6,000 years old even though humanoid creatures existed before then.

This makes sense.  It was 6 days from G-d's perspective in the center of the universe.  Time is relative to where it's measured from.  On earth it may have seemed like millions of years but from the center of the universe only 6 days.

That's pretty much what Dr. Schroeder postulates.

Schroeder stipulates that Genesis should be interpreted as if there are TWO biblical clocks at work.

The first clock begins ticking when Hashem creates the Universe. Time on this clock is measured from Hashem's perspective looking forward. Yes, the term 'day' is used (the Rambam even specifically states that a 'day' consists of 24 'hours') to quantify time as measured by this clock. However, it's important to note and essential to understand that the first 6 'days' as depicted in Genesis is not written from a human perspective. It can not be taken literally in it's entirety and is certainly partly written in parable form. This view is supported not only by the Rambam, but also the Ramban, Kabbalists, and other sages.

A separate, second clock begins ticking when Hashem creates Adam's soul and from that point on time is measured in understandable human terms looking backwards.

Using the two clock hypothesis (which was not originally advanced by Schroeder, he's merely repeating what our sages taught us centuries ago) in conjunction with modern scientific knowledge, the age of the Universe can be determined to be approximately 15.75 billion years.

So obviously the Torah is correct, and the apparent conflict of 5765 versus 15.75 billion easily resolved.
 

[Lubab]

Rabbi Blech says the Earth is billions of years old because Torah says G_d created the world in six 'periods' or phases not actual Earth 'days'.

Modern man with free will is only 6,000 years old even though humanoid creatures existed before then.

This makes sense.  It was 6 days from G-d's perspective in the center of the universe.  Time is relative to where it's measured from.  On earth it may have seemed like millions of years but from the center of the universe only 6 days.

That's pretty much what Dr. Schroeder postulates.

Schroeder stipulates that Genesis should be interpreted as if there are TWO biblical clocks at work.

The first clock begins ticking when Hashem creates the Universe. Time on this clock is measured from Hashem's perspective looking forward. Yes, the term 'day' is used (the Rambam even specifically states that a 'day' consists of 24 'hours') to quantify time as measured by this clock. However, it's important to note and essential to understand that the first 6 'days' as depicted in Genesis is not written from a human perspective. It can not be taken literally in it's entirety and is certainly partly written in parable form. This view is supported not only by the Rambam, but also the Ramban, Kabbalists, and other sages.

A separate, second clock begins ticking when Hashem creates Adam's soul and from that point on time is measured in understandable human terms looking backwards.

Using the two clock hypothesis (which was not originally advanced by Schroeder, he's merely repeating what our sages taught us centuries ago) in conjunction with modern scientific knowledge, the age of the Universe can be determined to be approximately 15.75 billion years.

So obviously the Torah is correct, and the apparent conflict of 5765 versus 15.75 billion easily resolved.
 

1. While I'm not expert in this issue, the Lubavitcher Rebbe has mentioned in a few places that when one starts to say that the 7 days of creation were unlike our days of creation it creates a real halachic problem, because the way we celebrate Shabbos must be modeled after what G-d did. Don't ask me more about it because I don't know, but there is a theological problem there.

2. If one is willing to accept that Adam was created a grown man as the Torah describes, and the trees and the animals were made in fully grown form, why is it so hard for people to believe that G-d made a fully grown world too? A world that if scientifically examined looks much older than it really is just as if we would scientifically examine Adam on his first day we'd conclude he was in his thirties or whatever.

3. If you are willing to trudge through the long articles I posted you will see that the tremendous extrapolation involved in radio-active dating makes it one of the least reliable forms of scientific data you could have. 

4. Obviously, as mentioned before this debate has nothing do with if there is a G-d or not because evolution or not, there must have been a Creator to get it all started. Even if you believe in evolution you still must grapple with who created the first thing that evolved.

[jdl4ever]

Point 3 is the only one I agree with since there must have been a creator for evolution to have worked so evolution proves the existence of G-d.  It is obvious from the Torah that the 6 days of creation are not 24 hr days, but merely 6 time periods happening in billions of years.

[newman]

Point 2/ is a brilliant piece of logic, too. I'm surprised I've never heard it before.

[Lubab]

It is obvious from the Torah that the 6 days of creation are not 24 hr days, but merely 6 time periods happening in billions of years.

It's not obvious to me. What are you referring to?

On the contrary, I think the simple reading of the text tells us it was "days". And days are days and the Torah does not leave its simple meaning. ("Ein Mikro Yotzei Medei Pshuto").

[jdl4ever]

I've told you this before already.  The Torah doesn't deviate from it's simple reading so go read it and you will see it is impossible for the days to be 24hr days.  The Sun, Moon and the days, nights and seasons the luminaries delineate were created on the fourth day so it was impossible for evening and morning to have happened literally on the first 3 days.  How can you have day and night without a sun or a moon?