They are getting closer to the Torah

[Dr. Dan]

"While I'm not expert in this issue, the Lubavitcher Rebbe has mentioned in a few places that when one starts to say that the 7 days of creation were unlike our days of creation it creates a real halachic problem, because the way we celebrate Shabbos must be modeled after what G-d did. Don't ask me more about it because I don't know, but there is a theological problem there."


I just want to make a comment on #1, Lubab.

First, I want to say that I love you like a brother and I love the heart you use whenever you post to all of us.

I don't believe that there is that much of a theological problem with the concept that Gd created the universe in 7 billion years (give or take a few quadrillion) instead of 7 days.  Gd might have decided to stop creating things once He created human beings and therefore rested and allowed human beings to pretty much do the rest of creation until the Moshiach....and as we can say this 7th day isn't taking 24 hours...it's taking 5700+ years so far.

[jdl4ever]

Brilliant point dannycookie.  I want to add that isn't it strange that the Torah doesn't say "and there was evening and morning; 7 days" like it does for the first 6 days?  According to Lubab, the Torah should have said this since the 7th day passed.  However, the truth is that the 7th day has not been completed yet and we are living in the 7th day so the Torah never said that the sun set completing the 7th day since it has not been completed.  This is definite proof that the days mean billions of years. 

[Dr. Dan]

hey jdlforever...i'm still figuring out why on the second of creation Gd never said it was good, but on the third day, He said whatever He did good two times!   Akha!  You can't eat your soup with a fork!

[Lubab]

I've told you this before already.  The Torah doesn't deviate from it's simple reading so go read it and you will see it is impossible for the days to be 24hr days.  The Sun, Moon and the days, nights and seasons the luminaries delineate were created on the fourth day so it was impossible for evening and morning to have happened literally on the first 3 days.  How can you have day and night without a sun or a moon? 

Ah! I was waiting for someone to ask that question. Good job.

Now, to understand that you need to understand the difference between measurable time and the flow of time.

You see 24 hours is still 24 hours whether there is a sun or not to represent that fact. The setting and rising of the sun and our watches all represents measurable time, not the flow of time which exists separate and distinct from those things.

I will post an article that explains this in detail.

[Lubab]

Here is the article:

The Time before Time

There are three levels of time: The “order” of time, the essential flow of time, and measurable time. The first is not yet physical time, rather the spiritual source of it. The infinite light of G-d before the tzimtzum transcends even the “order” of time. The kav creates the order of time. The order of time begins with the “first desire” or “first thought” and extends until malchus of Atzilus. Then, malchus of Atzilus creates actual, physical time when it descends to the created worlds, BY”A.

First comes the order of time. The order of time is the creation of a structure and laws that will govern creation. For example, the creation of the sfiros, the limitation to ten, the definition of each sfirah, the creation of opposites, such as chesed and gevurah, and the order of the sfiros (chesed, gevurah, tiferes, etc.). Basically, because G-d decided that the expansion of chesed opposes the constriction of gevurah, they cannot occur simultaneously. Therefore, chesed has to come first, then stop and leave, before gevurah can begin to act. The analogy for this is breathing.

Since the lungs expand and contract to breath, and just expanding or just contracting won’t work, and since expansion and contraction are opposites that can’t occur simultaneously, it takes time to breath. There has to be an inhale and only after that an exhale and only after that the next inhale. Thus the constraints or “rules” that govern breathing necessitates a before and after—thus time. Similarly, the constraints, rules, or structure that G-d set up for the world necessitates time. Nevertheless, there is no actual time at this point, only a series of rules that, if a world were conducted by them, will necessitate time.

Then, when the physical world is created there is the flow of time and measurable time. The flow of time is created by the “running and returning” of the creative energy. That is, since each moment has its own unique life force, and since the previous life force must leave before the next can enter, time is born. However, this essential passing of time and division of the life force, is imperceptible. This time only has meaning to us when it causes changes or motion in physical beings. The effect of time on physical beings, that is, their change and motion, allows for measurable time.

For example, imagine an empty flip book. There would be no real perception of how fast the pages were being flipped. On the other hand, when there are images on the flipbook, the speed of the figures motion and change gives us a tangible feeling of time. If the book were flipped too fast or too slow, we would notice. (Although this is only because we already have an idea of how fast things should go from our own experience of time in our own movements and in the world around us.)

Thus, the “order” of time existed before the world was created. Rather the order of time existed as a higher spiritual creation, as did the Torah. They came into being with the emanation of the sfiros after the first tzimtzum. The “flow” of time began immediately with the existence of the physical world, and they are inseparable (within the current structure of creation). The “measurement” of time began (primarily) with the setting of the sun, moon, and other heavenly bodies in orbit. The sun gives us the year, the moon the month, and entire universe gives day and night, and then based on these standards, smaller portions of time are set by subdividing these standards. (Incidentally, the origin of the week is G-d’s creation of the world.

There is no natural source for this. Likewise, the division into hours is according to the divisions of the combination of the Divine names—the Tetragrammaton for day and Adnay for night. These also have no natural source.) Of course, these are only signs of time, like a watch, but not time itself. Thus the length of time that it takes for the sun to orbit the earth (one day) existed before the sun was set in orbit. On the contrary, if G-d did not know how long this time was, how could He set the sun to orbit for precisely that long. This is the meaning of the first three days of creation, before the sun and moon were set in their orbits. For G-d already knew the “order” of time, which is the real source and measure of the physical “flow” of time.

(Unfortunately, many people, especially those that study the Theory of Relativity, confuse the “flow” of time and “measurable” time, making them one thing. The Theory of Relativity deals only with measurable time (and measurable space) and not the ultimate existence of time (or space). Thus such conclusions as that of the Twin Paradox (that someone will age slower than their twin if accelerated nearly to the speed of light) are incorrect, and indeed, absurd. Einstein built the speed of light into his Theory, by choosing to define two evens as occurring simultaneously if I see them both at the same time when standing exactly between them.

For example, if lightning hit two places along a railroad track, I would know if they hit at the same time, if I saw them both strike at the same time when standing between them. The correct definition of time should be measured by two people standing with stopwatches at the two spots. This way the speed of light and any variations in it are negligible. His same definition could be applied to sound (especially for a blind man)—that something’s occurrence is judged by when I hear it. This would mean that a plane flying faster than the speed of sound does not fly by him until he hears it, a few seconds later. Were the mathematical Theory of Relativity applied to this definition of time, we could conclude that it is impossible to break the sound barrier (as many say about the speed of light), however, this is not really true.)

Higher than Time in Time

The “first thought” is the general form or concept of what the world will be like. It includes all of time at once. Then the kav divides this first thought into ten circles (the sfiros of eggullim). This creates the order of the sfiros. Then, each of these ten are divided into more particulars and given a more rigid form in atik and arich and so on down through Atzilus. Finally, in malchus of Atzilus each division (sfirah) includes one thousand of our years. Each division of z”a is one year (365) of malchus’s divisions, each division of av”a is 2,000 of z”a’s divisions, and atik is already infinite time. (This order of time is all created in A”K, but it is revealed gradually. The inner point of the first thought of A”K is revealed in atik, the circles are revealed in arich and the yosher of A”K is revealed in av”a, z”a, and malchus of Atzilus.) Thus, A”K is the source for the order of time (and the kav is the source of the source). Then the order of time is in Atzilus. But none of this is actual time yet. Similarly, in the actual time in the created worlds, one day here is ten or fifteen in Yetzirah, and one hundred in Briyah.

In order to understand how this can be—how much time can be fit into a short period we have to understand some basic concepts of how time (and space) are created. We previously explained that the division of a flow (of energy or something) into parts that must come one after the other creates time. This is compared to the inhale-exhale of breathing. Likewise, the flame of a candle takes time to burn because it wants to go up and down at the same time. It’s nature is to rise, but it’s fuel is below, thus if flickers, jumping and returning again and again. This dual process is what makes it take so long for a candle to burn. Were the burning a single process—only rising or only descending—the candle would burn instantly.

This can seemingly be compared to a teacher explaining a concept to a student. The teacher understands the entire concept at once, as a single point. However, in order to explain it to a student on a lower level, the teacher divides the concept into parts and stages and explains each one separately. The lower the student, the more everything needs to be explained and laid forth expressly, leaving no room for confusion. This requires much division of the concept into many ideas and many words. However, a greater student could grasp the same concept—in its entirety—in only a few words with only a few steps. Until, someone on the teacher’s level will understand everything with the mention of a single word, such as the name of the concept. For this college knows the definition of this word, which includes the entire explanation of the concept.

So too, as time descends through the hishtalshellus the same original point (of the first thought) is divided into smaller and smaller pieces. For example, in malchus of Atzilus it is divided into seven millenniums. Each millennium is one division and is called one “day,” for this stage can receive and entire millennium at once. From there it divides into each Jubilee cycle of fifty years, then to each Shmitah cycle of seven years, then to each Rosh Hashanah, then to each new moon (the Jewish month starts on the new moon), then to each Shabbos (Saturday), then to each day, then to each combination of the Divine name over each hour. Each of these units includes all of the time within them, and then is subdivided.

Similarly, G-d showed Adam all of the generations that would come out from him, with all of history. Likewise, there is a story with the Baal Shem Tov, where he sent a letter to his brother-in-law in Israel, asking him to inform a certain Rabbi that he did such and such as sin and that it was decreed on high that he would die for it unless he returned, and the Baal Shem Tov prescribed a course of repentance. The Baal Shem Tov’s brother-in-law wrote back with a question: the letter was received a few days after the sin was preformed, which meant that it was sent much earlier. So how did the Baal Shem Tov know and how could the Heavenly Court prosecute before the event? The Baal Shem Tov answered that he ascended to the world of Yitzirah and that there one can see ten or fifteen years at once. Thus, at that stage it already happened.

Imagine ten points arranged in a line like this:  [……….] Since they are all laid out in front of you, you can see them all at once. Now imagine if these points had to pass in a line past a narrow crack in a wall, like this: [……….] (you are the “x”).
           ___ ___
                 x

This way you would only be able to see one at a time, thus it would take ten units of time to view it (or really twenty, if the spaces in between are counted). Thus, the passage of time is limited according to our ability to receive it, but there is no essential limitation.

The same is true with space. For example, when limiting space to one dimension (a line), only one point can correspond to any given point on the line. (Like this: _._.____._______ ) Once a point of the line is taken up, no other point can fit there. On the other hand, if another dimension is added, removing some of the limitations, infinite points can fit along any point of the line. In two dimensions infinite points can be stacked over a single point of a line, like this: [ _:_:____:_____ ]. If someone lived in one-dimensional space, it would be unfathomable to fit more than one thing on one point of a line. Similarly, a two-dimensional person could not fathom three-dimensional space. Thus, our view and definition of space is limited only in our own perception and only by our own limitations, but there is no essential limitation. This is how the Holy Ark took up no space in the Holy Temple’s Holy of Holies. For even though it had definite dimensions—two and a half, by one and a half cubits—the room retained its full ten cubit’s of space—five on each side of the Ark. How can more than one object can occupy the same space?

Simple, just go even one dimension higher, and there is no difficulty at all—just like there is no difficulty to fit many things on a single point if they may be stacked. Thus the Ark was a tangible revelation of something beyond our limits of space, as viewed within our limits. These limits are created by the tzimtzum and the kav, but G-d transcends all of them, higher and higher.

Thus the dimensions and limits of time and space as we know it descend from the number and order of the sfiros that G-d reveals within creation and the manner of the vessels, etc. Were G-d to allow more of a revelation into a given level, these limitations would cease.

The Bridge of Time

Time is really an intermediary between the physical dimensions of space and a higher, spiritual reality. Time allows the physical world to contain something beyond it, without bursting the world’s limitations and nature. For example, two-dimensional space can be revealed in the world of one-dimensional space in two ways: The one-dimensional people can see a point that really is hovering over their line of space. This point will appear to take up space, but when measured it won’t, similar to the Ark, because it does not rest within the bounds of their line, but is above it. This is a revelation of beyond nature within nature, but this sort of brakes the rules, creating a paradox within one-dimensional space. The other way to reveal a two-dimensional figure in one-dimensional space is to run it through the line. Thus the plane would be viewed line by line in sequence—in other words, it would be revealed in time. This is the way a movie reel works. The entire film is present at once on the movie reel. The entire movie could be laid out on the ground and viewed at once. However, the movie is not viewed this way.

Rather it is passed over a narrow opening and viewed only one frame at a time. This creates the need for a long time to view the movie, and creates the illusion of motion, as the frames change. (The movie real is like a line, one-dimensional space, being viewed point by point, or in zero-dimensional space.) Thus, it is understood how time allows something of a greater dimension to exist within a lower dimension, because it exists there bit by bit over time. In this manner, even a three-dimensional figure could be viewed even in zero-dimensional space, point by point, line by line, plane by plane. It would just take a lot of time. (This is kind of like the layered imaging used in many medical scans, like a cat scan, where a three-dimensional image is produced by two-dimensional scans, taken over time, and then stacked on top of each other.)

So too, G-d’s intent in creation is to reveal that which is higher than our three-dimension within our limits. Time bridges this gap. This is how life or soul connects to the physical. When a higher level enters a lower level through the intermediary of time, the lower level becomes animated, moving and changing. Just like pictures become “animated” when the one-dimensional film enters the zero-dimension by way of the projector’s shutter. This is why life and movement are synonymous. Everything in our world has a soul that enters it, changing it over time. Time bridges the physical and the spiritual. (These are the three levels of "Olam, Shanah, Nefesh"--World, Time, Soul. Time is the intermediary between World and Soul.)

(Also, note that the ultimate intent is to reveal G-d Himself in our world, and the idea of time and the revelation of something higher than our limits in our limits that it represents are only a beginning to get us used to the idea. This is only a relative novelty and relative higher revelation, ultimately we will experience G-d Himself Who transcends ALL limitation.)


Infinite Time

Now we come to the age-old questions about time, such as can it be infinite, is it continuous or made of units, what about Zeno’s Paradox, and so on. In order to answer these questions some things have to be clarified about number theory (some things that I think are still confused by most mathematicians and scientists): the relationship of the finite to the infinite.

This can be understood in terms of the relationship between points and a line. In the world of points, each point is a single, finite unit. Points can be counted (one point, two points, three points,), added and subtracted. A line is defined by geometry as a series of points. However, this is not entirely true. For a point has zero dimensions. That means that it has no length at all. Relative to a line a point is not a one, but rather a zero; it is none existent in the world of lines. In the world of lines each line is a single, finite unit. Lines can be counted, added and subtracted, just as points can. These are two distinct dimensions. Points have no existence in the world of lines, because they are nothing in that realm. Likewise, lines have no existence in the world of points, there is no such thing as length in the realm of points, and so there is no possibility for a line’s existence, or even the understanding of a line.

So can points be strung together to make a line? Not really, because no matter how many points are added, it is still zero relative to a line. And infinite series of zeros does not make one. Points simply lack the possibility of entering the world of two-dimensions. Even the infinite totality of the world of points does not reach even the smallest line segment. Rather there is a jump, a sort of qualitative leap, between the world of points and the world of lines. Where mathematics made of only zeros, nothing could happen. Placing the number one before a series of zeros is a leap, a new creation, a new number, something that did not exist before. However, one a line exists, every piece of it includes or encompasses infinite points. Just like the number one includes infinite subdivisions. Each point between zero and one is itself a zero.

(A few years back there was a debate about whether the number .999… equals the number 1 or not. What they did not realize is that the question is flawed. When using whole numbers, it is like we are in the world of lines. Each whole number represents a line, and this can be divided into factions and decimals. However, infinite series such as .999… represent a point, not a line. This is why there is no representation for .000…1 That is, an infinite series of points with a one at the end. Such a series would represent a point. However, this point is infinitely small, and thus has no existence or relevance to the world of whole numbers.  Asking if .999… equal 1 is like asking if infinity minus one equals infinity, or if a line minus one point is a line.

The entire question is wrong, because finite numbers have no relevance to infinite numbers and points have no relevance to lines. A point is a zero—as it is infinitely small—and adding or subtracting it from a line does nothing. When in the realm of points, there is relevancy to points and they can be added or subtracted. However, in the realm of lines, points have no relevancy. So too, in general finite numbers are like zeros to infinite numbers.)

Infinity is infinitely bigger than one million. By the law of symmetry this means that one million is infinitely small relative to infinity. This makes one million dimensionless, like a point to a line. Thus, all finite numbers are like zero and irrelevant to infinite numbers. Finite numbers can only become infinite, such as having an infinite series of numbers or points, when an infinite number (such as a line) descends into the realm of finite numbers (such as points), the finite can become infinite. For example, when a line descends into the realm of points and is viewed and defined by the limits of points, it creates and infinite series of points. On the other hand, from the point of view of finite numbers, infinity can never be reached. That is, were a person to have the power of adding ones, or even millions, and did so unceasingly, he would never even approach infinity, but remain relatively zero. Points can never gain length by their own right, but when length, even the smallest length, is defined in terms of points, it creates infinite points.

This is because the first dimension is an infinitely higher realm than the zero-dimension. Even something finite in the realm of lines, such as a line segment, is completely infinite in the realm of points. So too, any plane or two-dimensional figure is infinite in the realm of lines, and any three-dimensional figure is infinite in the realm of planes. Thus any physical object that we encounter, no matter how small, includes infinite planes, lines, and points, just because it is in the third dimension.

This is how relative infinities are possible. Two lines is twice as great as one line, and a plane is infinitely greater than a line, yet in the realm of points two lines, or even a plane, does not have more points than a single line. Once something is in a higher dimension it encompasses an infinity of the lower dimension. Any addition to this is a function of finite numbers and only has meaning in that higher realm, such as adding lines. Two lines are twice as great in the realm of lines, but nothing can be added to the realm of points by this. One includes just as many zeros as two does. (As is represented by the infinite series of zeros after a whole number. Changing the number before the zeros does not effect the series of zeros in any way. Thus the series of zeros in 1.000000… is the same as the zeros in 2.000000… This is because whole numbers (including finite decimals, because the decimal can be moved) and infinite sets or never ending decimals are two different realms or dimensions and their numbers have no relation to each other. (Of course, all of this is only mathematical infinities and not true infinity. True infinity can have nothing greater. These relative infinities are comparable to the worlds within hishtalshellus each higher world is infinite relative to the worlds below it. However, the infinity of the Ein Sof before the tzimtzum is a true infinity and nothing can be higher.)

So too, time can be viewed on three levels or dimensions: as finite time, as infinite time, or as infinite time within finite time. If time is viewed as finite, it is a series of points, definite parts and not a continuum. When time and space are viewed this way, time and motion work in increments like the frames of a movie. Space may also be viewed this way (and to be consistent it must be), as existing in definite parts. If we choose to view time and space this way, Zeno’s Paradox falls away, because the amount of space to be covered is finite, the amount of time is finite, and each space has a corresponding point in time—like a movie. On the other hand, if time and space are viewed as infinite, they are a continuum and not a series points. Just like points are irrelevant in the world of points, so too, there are no definite points if time and space are a continuum.


Rather, each movement and change is a single fluid unit. This way, too, Zeno’s Paradox falls to the side, because the space to be covered is not an infinite series of finite points, rather it is a single fluid unit—a higher and relatively infinite realm—and there is a corresponding fluid unit of time. In this scheme time and space are like line segments—they are finite in the realm of lines, but infinite to the realm of points and points have no relevance the their world. Indeed, Zeno’s Paradox is based on a flawed premise, or a confusion of terms (just like the question about whether .999… equals 1). In essence Zeno’s question is how can finite parts (points) ever reach infinity (a line, or continuum). And the truth is that they can’t, but they don’t have to, because when jumping to a higher realm, finite numbers or points become irrelevant.

There is also a third way (which is the true nature of reality), when the infinite descends within the finite. This is like how a line encompasses infinite points and creates an infinite series of points when expressed in terms of points. In this view space is indeed made of infinite points (as Zeno said), but so is time. Thus for every infinitely small point of space, there is an infinitely small point of time. This is indeed a paradox, for the mind cannot comprehend this. Here the points take on the quality of a line, which should be impossible, because the points are zeros, they lack any length, so how can length be made of them?

The answer is that although points cannot make length of their own accord, and finite numbers can never reach infinity, yet when infinity descends into the finite the finite is able to become infinite too. Although this is illogical, nay impossible, when viewed by the standards of the finite, there can still be recognition that this is so and that this is possible for a higher power, not bound by the same limits. In this way time can be both points and a continuum and space can be both particles and a wave. Such phenomena are the result of a higher realm interfacing and merging with a lower one. (This is similar to the idea of time in general—how it bridges a higher realm with a lower—and how it is possible for there to be higher than time and space within time and space, as explained previously.) 

This is one of the ways that the Infinite Creator is revealed in our world. The fact that matter is infinitely divisible and that time is infinitely divisible and that the world is set in such a way that it can continue forever and that matter cannot be destroyed, all reveal something of G-d’s infinity within our finite world. Especially, this ability to merge the finite with the infinite points to G-d, for only G-d, who is beyond the limits of both finite and infinite, can merge the two.

And so, very soon, we will experience infinite time, with the coming of Moshiach. Then will be the “day that is all long,” that is completely infinite time. And “all” long means that its beginning is long like its end. This means that not only will we experience G-d for eternity in an infinite future, we will retroactively experience Him in an infinite past, extending even before the world was created. For the world is made with an Author, a Book and a Story. And just like a story starts in middle of a scene with a complete world, so too, our world started in mid-scene. But in the time of Moshiach G-d will reveal everything to us, including His intent of the past history of the world (and even though it never existed, it is more real than the world as we know it, for it a thought of G-d which is one with Him and He is the ultimate reality). And just as G-d is infinite, so too will the revelation of Him in our finite world be infinite, breaking all bounds in all directions and all dimensions.

(Based on Imrei Binah, chapters 39 and 40; Derech Mitzvosecha, Emanus Elokus, chapters 11 and 12; Derech Emunah (Sefer Hachakirah); a letter of the Rebbe, Hosofos of Likkutei Sichos vol. 10 (second letter); and other sources.)
                            

                   

[Lubab]

"While I'm not expert in this issue, the Lubavitcher Rebbe has mentioned in a few places that when one starts to say that the 7 days of creation were unlike our days of creation it creates a real halachic problem, because the way we celebrate Shabbos must be modeled after what G-d did. Don't ask me more about it because I don't know, but there is a theological problem there."


I just want to make a comment on #1, Lubab.

First, I want to say that I love you like a brother and I love the heart you use whenever you post to all of us.

I don't believe that there is that much of a theological problem with the concept that Gd created the universe in 7 billion years (give or take a few quadrillion) instead of 7 days.  Gd might have decided to stop creating things once He created human beings and therefore rested and allowed human beings to pretty much do the rest of creation until the Moshiach....and as we can say this 7th day isn't taking 24 hours...it's taking 5700+ years so far.

Love you too bro' 

I told you not to ask me about that. Now you're gonna make me have to find that letter of the Rebbe about it.

[Dr. Dan]

Listen Lubab, I think i brought up a good point there...We are on our 7th day and Gd intended for us to finish it by bringing about the moshiach..

[Lubab]

Listen Lubab, I think i brought up a good point there...We are on our 7th day and Gd intended for us to finish it by bringing about the moshiach..

I think you are confusing two things. There are the 7 days of creation. There are also 7 days in each week.

The history of the world is also like a week. It is to last for 7 millenia. The 7th millenia is like complete Shabbos and that is the time of the resurrection of the dead.

We are currently in the year 5767 of the world. That means we towards the end of the 6th millenium.

If the millenniums correspond to the week then we are right now in Erev Shabbos and we can bring in Shabbos at any time.

We're actually already like in the 18 minutes left before Shabbos...and people are getting nervous...

One must bring in Shabbos an hour early, so we know Moshiach must come well before the year 6000.

Maybe this is what you have in mind, but one should not confuse the general "week" of the history of the world, with the particular days of creation which were 7 real days. I think that's where you're running into the problem.

[Dexter]

Listen Lubab, I think i brought up a good point there...We are on our 7th day and Gd intended for us to finish it by bringing about the moshiach..

I think you are confusing two things. There are the 7 days of creation. There are also 7 days in each week.

The history of the world is also like a week. It is to last for 7 millenia. The 7th millenia is like complete Shabbos and that is the time of the resurrection of the dead.

We are currently in the year 5767 of the world. That means we towards the end of the 6th millenium.

If the millenniums correspond to the week then we are right now in Erev Shabbos and we can bring in Shabbos at any time.

We're actually already like in the 18 minutes left before Shabbos...and people are getting nervous...

One must bring in Shabbos an hour early, so we know Moshiach must come well before the year 6000.

Maybe this is what you have in mind, but one should not confuse the general "week" of the history of the world, with the particular days of creation which were 7 real days. I think that's where you're running into the problem.

There are 6 days of creation, not 7 . (no?)

[Maccabi]

two thoughts:

first I am not a scientist and am a beginning Torah student but here are two questions:

Doesn't G-d create by 'speaking'?  Therefore, aren't there 2 phases of creation...God speaks, and then from his words, the things are formed?  Could that mean that maybe he took 6 days to speak/conceptualize the world, but then it took thousands/millions/billions/ of years for the work to be done (while he sits back after he spoke)? 

Moreover, maybe the word creation could better be the word 'design' or 'conceptualize'...or maybe we need to find better words for creation or break it down into a few different parts.  I could see G-d 'designing' the world in six days...or creating a 'blueprint', but then it taking millions of years to complete.

I also thought the point on time being different from the center of the universe/creation and where we are is interesting.  Maybe it is like when you swing a bat...at the center, there is only a little distance (which could be related to short the creation time), while the end of the bat moves several feet (which could be the thousands/millions/billions of years) that we perceive.

Anyways, I could just be blabbering here I have little idea of what I'm talking about...maybe he did conceptualize, design, and then create/form the world in 6 days which are similar to the days from our perspective.

[Lubab]

Listen Lubab, I think i brought up a good point there...We are on our 7th day and Gd intended for us to finish it by bringing about the moshiach..

I think you are confusing two things. There are the 7 days of creation. There are also 7 days in each week.

The history of the world is also like a week. It is to last for 7 millenia. The 7th millenia is like complete Shabbos and that is the time of the resurrection of the dead.

We are currently in the year 5767 of the world. That means we towards the end of the 6th millenium.

If the millenniums correspond to the week then we are right now in Erev Shabbos and we can bring in Shabbos at any time.

We're actually already like in the 18 minutes left before Shabbos...and people are getting nervous...

One must bring in Shabbos an hour early, so we know Moshiach must come well before the year 6000.

Maybe this is what you have in mind, but one should not confuse the general "week" of the history of the world, with the particular days of creation which were 7 real days. I think that's where you're running into the problem.

There are 6 days of creation, not 7 . (no?)

Well, yes, but on the 7th day G-d created the concept of rest.

[Maccabi]

also, I have heard that the light we see from some of the stars is 6 million years old or something...like just the light traveliing through space from stars at such a distance would take 6 million years to reach earth.

[jdl4ever]

also, I have heard that the light we see from some of the stars is 6 million years old or something...like just the light traveliing through space from stars at such a distance would take 6 million years to reach earth.

Exactly.  One of the proof that the earth is billions of years old is that many of the stars we see are millions of light years away so it takes millions of years for the light from those stars to reach us. 

[Lubab]

also, I have heard that the light we see from some of the stars is 6 million years old or something...like just the light traveliing through space from stars at such a distance would take 6 million years to reach earth.

Exactly.  One of the proof that the earth is billions of years old is that many of the stars we see are millions of light years away so it takes millions of years for the light from those stars to reach us. 

That is proof in the same way that looking at Adam's hairy chest on his birthday would tell us he's 30 not 1 day old.

Or you could just as easily say G-d created Adam with the features of a grown man and G-d created the stars in a way that the light was already shown all the way to us so we can see and benefit from them.

None of these things are proof of the age of the world unless you assume that G-d couldn't have created anything that appears older than it really is. If you do accept that G-d did that, then there is no issue here at all.

JDL4ever, do you beleive that G-d made trees that were already grown when He created the world? If a scientist would do radioactive dating on those trees, what would they conclude?

[Dr. Dan]

Listen Lubab, I think i brought up a good point there...We are on our 7th day and Gd intended for us to finish it by bringing about the moshiach..

I think you are confusing two things. There are the 7 days of creation. There are also 7 days in each week.

The history of the world is also like a week. It is to last for 7 millenia. The 7th millenia is like complete Shabbos and that is the time of the resurrection of the dead.

We are currently in the year 5767 of the world. That means we towards the end of the 6th millenium.

If the millenniums correspond to the week then we are right now in Erev Shabbos and we can bring in Shabbos at any time.

We're actually already like in the 18 minutes left before Shabbos...and people are getting nervous...

One must bring in Shabbos an hour early, so we know Moshiach must come well before the year 6000.

Maybe this is what you have in mind, but one should not confuse the general "week" of the history of the world, with the particular days of creation which were 7 real days. I think that's where you're running into the problem.

Actually my intention wasn't to bring this up...but it is a very interesting metaphor if one millenia = one Gdly day...for all we know it might be each millionth year = 1 Gdly day.  

I think the point I wanted to bring up about creation according to simple biblical interpretation as 7 days with Gd perfectly doing the "zap" technique of creating all living species was that I doubt that Gd would show His wisdom and majesty that way.  I believe that Gd is far more clever than to just make things spontaneously appear. Sure He can do such things..He can do anythign He wants.  However, in my opinion, it seems more a miracle that Gd created all living species via how scientists are trying to explain it today (even though they dont' quite have the full answer).  Lubab, all living species are made out of cells which are each little miracles within themselves..all working in harmony...each cell has little organelles and each organelle as moelcules of whcih each are atoms...and the beauty of all these things is that somethign causes it to work in harmony...that, my friend, is Gd's breath.

I dont' believe that Gd just put a bunch of cells together to make each unique species...but started from the ground with these atoms he created...and so on and so forth...gradually created what we have today.

[MarZutra]

Question Lubab, If they have found no evidence whatsoever that there was human life during the time of the dinosaurs that would logically dictate that humans came after no?  How?  Bang, later Adam and Eve or as the Darwinian mind......"evolved" from Monkeys?  Of course, that logic's thesis stems that all life came from some floating snot in a heated chemically intoxicated ocean.  That be the case, what gave the snot life?  G-d?  or chance?  To throw one last wrench into the equation, it is well known that we've found fossilized skeletons of crocodiles dating to the age of the dinosaurs and when compared with today's crocodiles there is no difference whatsoever.  Thus the crocodiles have not "evolved" in the least but monkeys changed....ooops "evolved" into humans?  I think to logic and factual reality seems to suggest the Torah's explantion of human life is more accurate than Darwin's. 

Now if one wishes to add the specifities of DNA and Geological records, the nail is slammed deeper into the coffin of Darwinism.......  Keep up the posts Lubab......doing well brother...

[Lubab]

Listen Lubab, I think i brought up a good point there...We are on our 7th day and Gd intended for us to finish it by bringing about the moshiach..

I think you are confusing two things. There are the 7 days of creation. There are also 7 days in each week.

The history of the world is also like a week. It is to last for 7 millenia. The 7th millenia is like complete Shabbos and that is the time of the resurrection of the dead.

We are currently in the year 5767 of the world. That means we towards the end of the 6th millenium.

If the millenniums correspond to the week then we are right now in Erev Shabbos and we can bring in Shabbos at any time.

We're actually already like in the 18 minutes left before Shabbos...and people are getting nervous...

One must bring in Shabbos an hour early, so we know Moshiach must come well before the year 6000.

Maybe this is what you have in mind, but one should not confuse the general "week" of the history of the world, with the particular days of creation which were 7 real days. I think that's where you're running into the problem.

Actually my intention wasn't to bring this up...but it is a very interesting metaphor if one millenia = one Gdly day...for all we know it might be each millionth year = 1 Gdly day. 

I think the point I wanted to bring up about creation according to simple biblical interpretation as 7 days with Gd perfectly doing the "zap" technique of creating all living species was that I doubt that Gd would show His wisdom and majesty that way.  I believe that Gd is far more clever than to just make things spontaneously appear. Sure He can do such things..He can do anythign He wants.  However, in my opinion, it seems more a miracle that Gd created all living species via how scientists are trying to explain it today (even though they dont' quite have the full answer).  Lubab, all living species are made out of cells which are each little miracles within themselves..all working in harmony...each cell has little organelles and each organelle as moelcules of whcih each are atoms...and the beauty of all these things is that somethign causes it to work in harmony...that, my friend, is Gd's breath.

I dont' believe that Gd just put a bunch of cells together to make each unique species...but started from the ground with these atoms he created...and so on and so forth...gradually created what we have today.

You are correct in you're feeling that G-d did this in a gradual process. He did. The Ramban tells us that G-d started out with the "hiyuli" matter i.e. the unformed and undefined matter of creation and then each day he made particular creations out of that. There was definitely an evolutionary process there, however, it took place over the course of 6 days, just like our 6 days.

And that is only the physical process of creation. G-d went through an entire multi-staged evolution known in Hebrew as "Seder histhalshelut" in order to create spiritual level after spritual level until the physical matter could be created. The study of these stages is a fundamental part of hasidic philosophy and I'm sure you would find it very fascinating.

So it wasn't a complete "zap" as you say.

And it is indeed our job to appreciate all of G-d's creations and trace them back to their source, which is G-d Himself.

[Lubab]

Question Lubab, If they have found no evidence whatsoever that there was human life during the time of the dinosaurs that would logically dictate that humans came after no? 

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Did they ever check in the Ma'rat Hamachpeila? That's where the oldest humans would be.

[jdl4ever]

Lubab, you are making wild crazy assumptions against clear scientific evidence.  The fact that we could see stars millions of light years away proves that the earth is not 6k years old.  Your answer "G-d created the world to look like it was millions of years old" makes no sense and has not one shred of evidence.  If you want to believe that fine, but I'm going to go with what evidence points to and what is obvious.  Why would G-d make the world appear millions of years old if it was not so, he likes to play tricks on us or something? 

[Maccabi]

the concept of light from distant planets being visible immediately is not as hard for me to accept as the idea that the earth was created with dinosaur fossils still in it.

I could maybe agree that Adam was created as a '30year old'...I could also maybe see trees being created immediately...but the whole fossils in the ground argument seems just a little too absurd.

I do agree that carbon dating must be seriously flawed though and I doubt the accuracy of any carbon dating reports.  I'm guessing one or 2 big meteors hitting the earth could mess up all carbon dating by creating different climate.

[Dexter]

I have an other question .
If god created the world in 6 days, and than in the 7th day he rest, god isn't perfect because perefect thing will never be tired .

[DownwithIslam]

Interesting question Dexter. You are smart!!!!

[Dr. Dan]

Listen Lubab, I think i brought up a good point there...We are on our 7th day and Gd intended for us to finish it by bringing about the moshiach..

I think you are confusing two things. There are the 7 days of creation. There are also 7 days in each week.

The history of the world is also like a week. It is to last for 7 millenia. The 7th millenia is like complete Shabbos and that is the time of the resurrection of the dead.

We are currently in the year 5767 of the world. That means we towards the end of the 6th millenium.

If the millenniums correspond to the week then we are right now in Erev Shabbos and we can bring in Shabbos at any time.

We're actually already like in the 18 minutes left before Shabbos...and people are getting nervous...

One must bring in Shabbos an hour early, so we know Moshiach must come well before the year 6000.

Maybe this is what you have in mind, but one should not confuse the general "week" of the history of the world, with the particular days of creation which were 7 real days. I think that's where you're running into the problem.

Actually my intention wasn't to bring this up...but it is a very interesting metaphor if one millenia = one Gdly day...for all we know it might be each millionth year = 1 Gdly day. 

I think the point I wanted to bring up about creation according to simple biblical interpretation as 7 days with Gd perfectly doing the "zap" technique of creating all living species was that I doubt that Gd would show His wisdom and majesty that way.  I believe that Gd is far more clever than to just make things spontaneously appear. Sure He can do such things..He can do anythign He wants.  However, in my opinion, it seems more a miracle that Gd created all living species via how scientists are trying to explain it today (even though they dont' quite have the full answer).  Lubab, all living species are made out of cells which are each little miracles within themselves..all working in harmony...each cell has little organelles and each organelle as moelcules of whcih each are atoms...and the beauty of all these things is that somethign causes it to work in harmony...that, my friend, is Gd's breath.

I dont' believe that Gd just put a bunch of cells together to make each unique species...but started from the ground with these atoms he created...and so on and so forth...gradually created what we have today.

You are correct in you're feeling that G-d did this in a gradual process. He did. The Ramban tells us that G-d started out with the "hiyuli" matter i.e. the unformed and undefined matter of creation and then each day he made particular creations out of that. There was definitely an evolutionary process there, however, it took place over the course of 6 days, just like our 6 days.

And that is only the physical process of creation. G-d went through an entire multi-staged evolution known in Hebrew as "Seder histhalshelut" in order to create spiritual level after spritual level until the physical matter could be created. The study of these stages is a fundamental part of hasidic philosophy and I'm sure you would find it very fascinating.

So it wasn't a complete "zap" as you say.

And it is indeed our job to appreciate all of G-d's creations and trace them back to their source, which is G-d Himself.

Ok, I can accept someone else's opinion that the evolution of the human being took 6 days literally.  Personally, it doesn't seem logical...However, we both agree that Gd was thoughtful and clever on how he made all species of animals and plants, and that is really what matters most...not if it took literally a week to create the universe or 7 decillion years.

Now, I have a couple other questions about the story of creation:

1. Trees and plants were created on the third day. On the fourth day the sun, moon and heavenly bodies were created. How is that possible if plants require sunlight to grow?

2. On the second day of creation, it is written that the sky was separated from the waters. Gd never said it was good. However, on the third day of creation, Gd said what he created was good twice. How come?

[Dr. Dan]

I have an other question .
If G-d created the world in 6 days, and than in the 7th day he rest, G-d isn't perfect because perefect thing will never be tired .

On the sixth day Gd created human beings.  Look how complex human beings are...they go this way they go that way...they are part animalistic and part Gd's holy image...I think even Gd looks at these amazing creatures and gets baffled and needs time to think how these little tiny human beings will usher in Moshiach..therefore on the seventh day, he not only rests like we rest on shabbat, but also learns about how we are and how we will be.

[Lubab]

I have an other question .
If G-d created the world in 6 days, and than in the 7th day he rest, G-d isn't perfect because perefect thing will never be tired .

Maybe he didn't rest because He was tired, but because he WANTED to rest.

If G-d wants to rest, He'll rest and there's nobody else up there to tell Him otherwise.