Rabbi Mizrachi's Interview With Arutz Sheva

[Israel Chai]

 So?  Just because claiming reincarnation is a good excuse doesn't mean its correct and true.

 + the whole argument falls apart when I already mentioned the fact that Cain murdered Abel. If a similar situation happened today you and those like you could brush it off with the excuse of "gilgulim" , BUT in this case no one was before them besides Adam and Eve and they were alive at the time and one of them was murdered by the other.

There are reasons why. Abel was making Cain jealous. Things can happen to someone without gilgulim involved, it's not a catch all explanation for why everything ever happens, but it does have its place.

[muman613]

I am not going to go into all of what I know about the concepts of Gilgulim. But the basic concept is that Adam HaRishon actually was composed of 600,000 root souls which compromise all souls which exist today. These root souls are scattered and we contain bits of these souls in us. Maybe if there is interest I can post some of the ideas concerning this topic.

http://www.kabbalaonline.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/1288460/jewish/Soul-Roots-in-the-Shoulders-172.htm

http://www.kabbalaonline.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/1287945/jewish/Six-Hundred-Thousand-Souls-171.htm

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

There are reasons why. Abel was making Cain jealous. Things can happen to someone without gilgulim involved, it's not a catch all explanation for why everything ever happens, but it does have its place.

Making someone jealous isn't an excuse to get punished with death. + who is to even say that he was.responsible for making him jealous. In fact.its.clear that he was rightious that's why his offering was accepted and Cains was not.

[Israel Chai]

Making someone jealous isn't an excuse to get punished with death. + who is to even say that he was responsible for making him jealous. In fact it's clear that he was righteous that's why his offering was accepted and Cain's was not.

Yeah there's a discussion in Gemarra or something that says he wasn't being very considerate of his brother who had given birth to less girls. I forget where I heard this, but it was in a lecture with a Rabbi, so probably Rabbi Mizrachi quoting it. Also, if I can give my humble opinion, the less incestuous thing that could have happened would be for each of the to marry each other's daughters, so they should have shared, which perhaps points to the same thing, but could also lead one to believe that there were other things involved with this behavior that made him do this out of anger and jealousy.

Also, remember that Cain had no idea what he was doing, and said "my sin is too great for me to bear" not because Cain was whining, but because he realized how terrible his sin was. So that action could have been the beginning of something that needed to be corrected. Cain got his punishment in this world, bringing some justice to him, and Abel got an extreme punishment for something comparatively small. Both were seemingly done out of ignorance and lack of empathy for the other's feelings. Some things did get corrected, and there was justice in this life, and really Cain should have gone to Gehinom, and Avel should be resurrected in Olam Haba, but G-d gave Cain a chance to correct his midot and Avel a chance to earn his reward, because if you sin on accident, you deserve the consequence for lack of empathy, trying to understand, but you don't get punished because you didn't understand. After they got their punishment for their lack of empathy, they get another chance to come back here and correct their lack of empathy between them and each other and their lack of knowledge between them and G-d.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

What?

Your just making things up. Its not a good explanation at all.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Tag, so do you think you only get one life on this earth? After you die do you stay in the after life for 6000 year's until the redemption? Have you completed all of the 613 your whole life? If not do you wish you could go back and change it? Is there an afterlife? Is there a redemption? If not, what is the point?

[Israel Chai]

What?

Your just making things up. Its not a good explanation at all.

The response was the first sentence, the rest was me going into it and trying to prove that the point is that it is something that each one got punished for individually and there was something each one wanted to correct on this world. There Adam is probably getting punished for something too by the way, but there's still divine justice. That divine justice is making each get a punishment for what he did wrong, (and maybe living a life as an outcast had elements that made some kapara for any unrighteousness that led to him giving the vegetable offering) and there is order in this world, but Kaballah on this serves to explain divine mercy, that each get another shot since they didn't get a chance to make a real choice and have a fair test.

Each one only got a deserved punishment for something they didn't understand was wrong in this life, and so they can't go to Gehinom, they have to have another shot to do things right, or else they enter heaven without everything they wanted.

[Israel Chai]

Tag, so do you think you only get one life on this earth? After you die do you stay in the after life for 6000 year's until the redemption? Have you completed all of the 613 your whole life? If not do you wish you could go back and change it? Is there an afterlife? Is there a redemption? If not, what is the point?

What is your interest in the response to any of these questions?

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I want to know what he thinks? How he thinks it works?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Tag, so do you think you only get one life on this earth? After you die do you stay in the after life for 6000 year's until the redemption? Have you completed all of the 613 your whole life? If not do you wish you could go back and change it? Is there an afterlife? Is there a redemption? If not, what is the point?

 Do you think that you will fulfill all 613 Misswot? If not you then do you think that every Jew will fulfill ever one of the 613 Misswoth?  If so then it would have to take billions of "reincarnations" because every Jew would then have to at least be a Kohen Gadol (and not just a Kohen but a Kohen Gadol) and that each Jew would have to live or lived at the time of the Beit Hamikdash so that he can serve in the Holy Temple and do many of the Misswoth associated with it and that only a Kohen Gadol can do.
 - Everyone would have to get divorced as well, at least at 1 time because their is a Misswah to give a wife a get. Every man would have to be a female and vice-versa.
 -Everyone would have to experience someone dying near them so they can bury the dead.
 - Each Jew would have to be born into a life of being a Judge.
 - Each Jew would have to know how to calculate the planetary system so that he can announce when is Rosh Hodesh

Still think that its a must?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Is there an afterlife? Is there a redemption? If not, what is the point?

 Of-course their is.

[muman613]

At most, Tag, only 600,000 reincarnations because the belief is based on only 600,000 root souls...

[edu]

Rashi in his commentary to Bamidbar/Numbers 16:27 (which talks about the family of Datan and Aviram along with their fathers being swallowed up by the ground, for initiating a rebellion against the authority of Moshe as G-d's prophet and casting doubt upon the Divine Authority of sections of the Torah) states the following:

"Come and see how severe is (the punishment of) strife: for the court below does not punish before (the defendant) brings two hairs (a symptom of maturitiy); and the court above - (not) until (the defendant is) twenty years old; but here there perished even those who suckled at the breast(ibid).

Also on the Biblical verse Dvarim/Deuteronomy 24:16 it says "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Rashi comments:

The fathers shall not be put to death by the children (I.e.) by the testimony of the children. And if you say by the iniquity of the children, then it has already been stated, "Every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Every man shall be put to death for his own sin But one who not yet a man dies for the iniquity of his father, and minors die for the iniquity of their parents at the hand of Heaven

Conclusion: there are situations according to Rashi where young babies die as a punishment for the sins of their father.

[Israel Chai]

Rashi in his commentary to Bamidbar/Numbers 16:27 (which talks about the family of Datan and Aviram along with their fathers being swallowed up by the ground, for initiating a rebellion against the authority of Moshe as G-d's prophet and casting doubt upon the Divine Authority of sections of the Torah) states the following:Also on the Biblical verse Dvarim/Deuteronomy 24:16 it says "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Rashi comments:Conclusion: there are situations according to Rashi where young babies die as a punishment for the sins of their father.

OK, but that's the point, they were put there because they needed that suffering to make a correction, and it doesn't violate the principle of divine justice on this world.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

OK, but that's the point, they were put there because they needed that suffering to make a correction, and it doesn't violate the principle of divine justice on this world.

 No its not, that's just you putting your point or words into Rashi's words. If this would be so then he would have said it that way and not the way that he said it.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

At most, Tag, only 600,000 reincarnations because the belief is based on only 600,000 root souls...

 How did you get that? It would have to be more than that for sure, because who said that when a person was born that they accomplished what they were supposed to do? + it would mean that their would have to be at least millions of years ahead for their to be a chance to do all the Misswoth (as suggested by Ephraim) because how many years did we even have the Temple standing? And how many people had the chance to be a Kohen Gadol?  Also by your Haskafa their isn't supposed to be free choice after Moshiah (the same people who speak of reincarnation often say this as well and that Moshiah is the last generation and no more test afterwards) so that would mean that no one would have a chance to do all 613 Mitzvot because it would be impossible to have this mant Kohen Gadols being born and doing their job.

[Israel Chai]

No its not, that's just you putting your point or words into Rashi's words. If this would be so then he would have said it that way and not the way that he said it.

He didn't say it, other Rabbis showed that the principles work together.

[muman613]

How did you get that? It would have to be more than that for sure, because who said that when a person was born that they accomplished what they were supposed to do? + it would mean that their would have to be at least millions of years ahead for their to be a chance to do all the Misswoth (as suggested by Ephraim) because how many years did we even have the Temple standing? And how many people had the chance to be a Kohen Gadol?  Also by your Haskafa their isn't supposed to be free choice after Moshiah (the same people who speak of reincarnation often say this as well and that Moshiah is the last generation and no more test afterwards) so that would mean that no one would have a chance to do all 613 Mitzvot because it would be impossible to have this mant Kohen Gadols being born and doing their job.

Sometimes a soul enters the world to just do one mitzvah and then it can pass to the next world. I am not an expert in the topic yet my understanding is the answer to your question has to do with sparks of the 600,000 root souls.

[kyel]

Rambam explains its suffering for parents.


In the Talmud it says even Moshe Rabbeibu didn't understand suffering. If Moshe and the Talmud say they don't knowit  You think anyone else do?

Couldn't it be that after the fall the world was corrupted and has to follow a natural order so that is why we have people born with genetic disorders and suffering and unfortunate events on the good and fortunate events on the wicked and also why there is a delay in receiving punishments and prayers being answered? Is there a term for this concept? Is this a foreign thought to Judaism?

[Israel Chai]

Couldn't it be that after the fall the world was corrupted and has to follow a natural order so that is why we have people born with genetic disorders and suffering and unfortunate events on the good and fortunate events on the wicked and also why there is a delay in receiving punishments and prayers being answered? Is there a term for this concept? Is this a foreign thought to Judaism?

We have to work and die because of the original sin, and Gemarra states that the few people that didn't sin would have never died if not for the original sin, and good events happen to bad people because the written Torah says "I am paying my haters cash to their face to get rid of them for eternity", and bad things happen to good people because the written Torah says "I am the righteous G-d who pays his lovers to eternity" and since Pirkei Avot says that "Hashem desired to make the Torah great and glorious (a lot of mitzvot) to benefit the nation of Israel", the suffering of the righteous in this life is an opportunity for them to earn more mitzvot, and correct the little bad that they did, so they can have a perfect teshuva and kappara in this world and a perfect world to come.

We know that without sin, people will still die because of the original sin, but everyone who didn't sin dies because of their sins, and a baby has a status of a monkey, so he can't sin or do mitzvot, so he hasn't really been tested now, and maybe that could be an explanation, that he didn't sin so it's only a correction for the original sin, but I think that doesn't make sense because dying because of the original sin seems to mean just dying of old age, an unnatural death seems to relate to a sin, so I don't know the halacha, but I don't think it applies in this situation, but you could find another explanation.

[muman613]

Very good points LKZ, getting very good with your Talmudic thought, IMO...

I had written something similar to what you wrote concerning the dictum 'No man dies without sin' and 'There is not a righteous man who does not sin'.... Here is a small discussion of these ideas from Torah.org:


http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5761/chukas.html

SHABBOS DAY:

This is the law when a man dies ... (Bamidbar 19:14)

Life is filled with uncertainties, but, death is not one of them. Ever since G-d delivered the dreaded verdict to Adam HaRishon for disobeying the commandment not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, death has become as much a part of life as life itself.

This is why the Talmud's statement seems a bit peculiar at first:

Rav Ammi said: There is no death without sin ... (Shabbos 55a)

Sure there is. Not only that, but there is even immortality even WITH sin, for, Ya'akov Avinu made at least a few small mistakes throughout the course of his long life, and yet he didn't die (Ta'anis 5b). And, elsewhere, the Talmud states that seven people went right to the Garden of Eden and did not die.

Not only this, but, there have been all kinds of righteous people throughout history who have died

True, Shlomo HaMelech wrote:

"There is no righteous person on the earth who does good and does not sin." (Koheles 7:20)

Which means that all the righteous people who have ever died have not gone completely sinless, which, is reasonable to assume. However, according to Rav Ammi, if they could have lived perfect lives, then, they would have not died, which is what the Talmud concludes:

Four people died because of the bite of the snake: Binyomin son of Ya'akov, Amram father of Moshe, Yishai father of Dovid, and, Kaleiv son of Dovid. (Shabbos 55b)

In other words, their lives were so perfect that, had it not been for the curse placed upon mankind because of the sin of eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would not have died and lived for ever. Their deaths, therefore, were no fault of their own.

Regarding death, the Talmud teaches:

Anyone who cries for a 'kosher' person will have his own sins forgiven ... It is taught in a brisa: Rebi Shimon ben Elazar said: Anyone standing by a dead person at the time his soul leaves is obligated to tear. To what is this likened? To a Sefer Torah that was burned. (Shabbos 105b)

In other words, though normally one only tears one's clothing for certain close relatives, being by the person as his or her soul leaves This World is different. It is such a 'tragic' event, like a Sefer Torah being burned, G-d forbid, that all present at the time must likewise rent their clothes.

It is an interesting comparison. In a very real sense, the soul inside the body is like the holy letters written on the parchment of a Sefer Torah, and though we may forget this, the halachah does not. Rebi Chanina ben Teradyon, one of the Ten Martyrs to die at the hands of the Romans, also did not. For, when they had bound him and ignited him that he should die a slow and very painful death for teaching Torah in public, he told his overwhelmed students,

"The parchment burns, but the letters fly off!" (Avodah Zarah 18a)

Considering that Rebi Chanina was wrapped in the Sefer Torah from which he had been teaching when he Romans had found him, and the Talmudic dictum cited above, Rabbi Teradyon's statement had a double meaning. Both the parchment and his body burned -- true -- but the holy light encased in the letters of the Sefer Torah, along with the holy light that was his soul, flew heavenward, untouched and undamaged by the Roman executioners.

This idea gives new meaning to what it means to disgrace one's body with unholy activities. A body without a soul that once had one, still retains a level of holiness, just as a Sefer Torah does whose words have faded, and a talmid chacham who, G-d forbid, forgot his learning. How much more so is this true of a body that still retains its soul, whether one can feel and relate to that soul or not.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

We have to work and die because of the original sin, and Gemarra states that the few people that didn't sin would have never died if not for the original sin,

I had and have this question on this. Perhaps you can ask Rabbi Mizrachi or someone else. (Or people here can answer)

about the 4 people that never sinned- if it says that they died because of the sin of Adam (because death was brought to the world as a result) why did they have to die when their were people who did not have to die and they did have sins? Such as Eliyahu HaNavi, Batya the daughter of Pharoh etc. Why did these 4 die when its possible not to die AND they didn't make any sins all of their life.

[muman613]

I had and have this question on this. Perhaps you can ask Rabbi Mizrachi or someone else. (Or people here can answer)

about the 4 people that never sinned- if it says that they died because of the sin of Adam (because death was brought to the world as a result) why did they have to die when their were people who did not have to die and they did have sins? Such as Eliyahu HaNavi, Batya the daughter of Pharoh etc. Why did these 4 die when its possible not to die AND they didn't make any sins all of their life.

Good question. I have not heard the question, nor the answer before.

[Israel Chai]

I had and have this question on this. Perhaps you can ask Rabbi Mizrachi or someone else. (Or people here can answer)

about the 4 people that never sinned- if it says that they died because of the sin of Adam (because death was brought to the world as a result) why did they have to die when their were people who did not have to die and they did have sins? Such as Eliyahu HaNavi, Batya the daughter of Pharoh etc. Why did these 4 die when its possible not to die AND they didn't make any sins all of their life.

He explained it I forget watch the lecture where he talks about it.

[kyel]

We have to work and die because of the original sin, and Gemarra states that the few people that didn't sin would have never died if not for the original sin, and good events happen to bad people because the written Torah says "I am paying my haters cash to their face to get rid of them for eternity", and bad things happen to good people because the written Torah says "I am the righteous G-d who pays his lovers to eternity" and since Pirkei Avot says that "Hashem desired to make the Torah great and glorious (a lot of mitzvot) to benefit the nation of Israel", the suffering of the righteous in this life is an opportunity for them to earn more mitzvot, and correct the little bad that they did, so they can have a perfect teshuva and kappara in this world and a perfect world to come.

We know that without sin, people will still die because of the original sin, but everyone who didn't sin dies because of their sins, and a baby has a status of a monkey, so he can't sin or do mitzvot, so he hasn't really been tested now, and maybe that could be an explanation, that he didn't sin so it's only a correction for the original sin, but I think that doesn't make sense because dying because of the original sin seems to mean just dying of old age, an unnatural death seems to relate to a sin, so I don't know the halacha, but I don't think it applies in this situation, but you could find another explanation.

No I am saying that maybe some things happen in this world because the physical world is broken and people have free will. I don't think Hashem hates the people in N. Korea so much that he wants them trapped in caves underground and has a spiteful vendetta against them because of who they were in past lives or the millions of other suffering people in this world. (I do believe in gilgul but don't believe it is necessary).

Instead we advocate for Tikkun Olam for example by feeding the poor, giving charity, or helping the sick. We don't say well they must be getting punished for something they did in a past life or this life, and that Hashem wants them to suffer and we shouldn't feel bad or not doing anything because that is what Hashem wants.Many mitzvot do have worldy implications for example the mishpatim.

I think Rabbi Mizrachi uses reincarnation in a way to explain justice in this world (everyone's paying measure for measure). I believe that Hashem will bring justice in the next world even if it does not get achieved in the physical world.