Author Topic: Since people aren't getting mad at me  (Read 3934 times)

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Offline Israel Chai

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Since people aren't getting mad at me
« on: July 29, 2014, 05:45:00 PM »
31:00 http://www.divineinformation.com/613-commandments-series-19-2/ Verses on here have to GO. He says there are no prophesies in the phony testament, but they certainly do claim that there are, so everyone on JTF has made hundreds of sins thanks to DS.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Since people aren't getting mad at me
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2014, 05:51:53 PM »
DS? What's that? What sins?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Since people aren't getting mad at me
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2014, 06:17:30 PM »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Since people aren't getting mad at me
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2014, 10:31:45 PM »
Why did prophecy stop?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Since people aren't getting mad at me
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2014, 01:55:10 AM »
Why did prophecy stop?

Good question Ephraim, and I did not know the answer till I read this (I knew Malachi was the last prophet of Tanach)...



http://www.jewishideas.org/articles/end-prophecy-malachis-position-spiritual-developmen

Why Prophecy Stopped

            We now turn to three leading trends in traditional Jewish thought as to why prophecy ceased: sin, the destruction of the Temple, or a metaphysical spiritual transition.

 

Sin

Some sources suggest that the loss of prophecy was punishment for sin. Over 200 years before Malachi, the prophet Amos predicted the cessation of prophecy:

A time is coming—declares my Lord God—when I will send a famine upon the land: not a hunger for bread or a thirst for water, but for hearing the words of the Lord. Men shall wander from sea to sea and from north to east to seek the word of the Lord, but they shall not find it (Amos 8:11–12).

 

Avot D’Rabbi NathanB:47 explains that prophecy ceased as a consequence of people mocking the prophets.

Radak (on Hag. 2:5) suggests more generally that lack of fidelity to the Torah resulted in the loss of prophecy. A Midrash (Pesikta Rabbati 35) states that many Jews failed to return to Israel after Cyrus gave them permission, and therefore prophecy ceased. Commenting on Yoma 9b, which blames the lack of redemption in the Second Temple period on the fact that many Jews did not return, Maharsha similarly states that prophecy ceased as punishment for the non-return from exile.

 

Destruction of the Temple

Ezekiel chapters 8–10 describe a vision wherein God shows the prophet the rampant idolatry in Jerusalem. God’s Presence abandons the Temple and goes into exile. Radak (on Ezek. 9:3) explains that the absence of God’s Presence ultimately contributed to the disappearance of prophecy.

Although Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi prophesied after the destruction of the First Temple, a number of sources consider the destruction to have dealt a fatal blow to prophecy.

?In five things the first Sanctuary differed from the second: in the ark, the ark-cover, the Cherubim, the fire, the Shekhinah, the Holy Spirit [of Prophecy], and the Urim ve-Thummim [the Oracle Plate] (Yoma 21b).

 

As Benjamin is the last tribe, so Jeremiah is the last prophet. But did not Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi prophesy after him? R. Lazar says: they had limited prophecy. R. Samuel b. Nahman says: [Jeremiah’s] prophecy already was given to Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi (Pesikta D’Rav Kahana 13).

 

The last prophets were diminished or, alternatively, were mere transmitters of Jeremiah’s message. Malbim (on Zech. 1:5–6) presents a more benign form of this approach:

I will not send new prophets, since there is no longer any need for prophets as you have seen all the prophecies of doom fulfilled against you…there is no longer any need for prophecy since you already understand God’s hand in history.

 

According to Malbim, there no longer was any need for prophecy since the message had already been given through earlier prophets.

 

Metaphysical Transition

Seder Olam Rabbah30 states that prophecy ceased in the time of Alexander the Great. Based on the rabbinic chronology, the Greek Empire began immediately following the end of the biblical period, so this time frame would synchronize with Malachi. Following this chronological assumption, R. Zadok HaKohen of Lublin observed that a metaphysical transition to an age of reason occurred in Israel and in Greece at the same time:

The proliferation of idolatry and sorcery in the gentile world paralleled divine revelation and prophecy in Israel. When prophecy ceased and the era of the Oral Law commenced, there appeared Greek Philosophy, which is to say, mortal wisdom (Resisei Laylah, 81b, Bezalel Naor translation).

 

This idea meshes with a talmudic statement that at the beginning of the Second Temple period, the temptation for idolatry ceased being the force it had been during the First Temple period (Yoma 69b). R. Yehudah HeHasid argued that once the urge for idolatry vanished there no longer existed the need for prophecy to counterbalance magic (Sefer Hasidim, Wistenetzky ed., p. 544; cf. R. Elijah of Vilna, commentary on Seder Olam Rabbah 30; R. Zadok, Divrei Soferim, 21b).

Similarly, a certain spiritual intensity was lost. Once the urge to idolatry had declined, prophetic revelation would have too much power if left unchecked. To preserve free will, prophecy had to cease as well (R. Eliyahu Dessler, Mikhtav me-Eliyahu III, pp. 277–278).

 

Religious Implications

According to the sin approach, the deprivation of the supreme gift of prophecy was a devastating punishment that has diminished the connection between God and humanity for the past 2,500 years since Malachi. Within the destruction of the Temple approach, the disappearance of prophecy was a necessary corollary of that cataclysmic event.

Although the loss of prophecy was a spiritual catastrophe, there still are some spiritual benefits to its suspension particularly within the approach that there was a divinely ordained metaphysical shift from prophecy-idolatry to human reason. In 1985, Professor Yaakov Elman published two articles analyzing the position of R. Zadok HaKohen of Lublin in reference to the transition from the age of prophecy to the age of Oral Law. According to R. Zadok, the end of prophecy facilitated a flourishing of the development of the Oral Law, a step impossible as long as people could turn to the prophets for absolute religious guidance and knowledge of God’s Will. Sages needed to interpret texts and traditions to arrive at rulings, enabling them to develop axioms that could keep the eternal Torah relevant as society changed.

Although the decline of revelation distanced people from ascertaining God’s Will, it simultaneously enabled mature human participation in the mutual covenant between God and humanity. This religious struggle is captured poignantly by the talmudic passage:

And they stood under the mount: R. Abdimi b. Hama b. Hasa said: This teaches that the Holy One, blessed be He, overturned the mountain upon them like an [inverted] cask, and said to them, ‘If you accept the Torah, it is well; if not, there shall be your burial.’R. Aha b. Jacob observed: This furnishes a strong protest against the Torah. Said Rava, Yet even so, they re-accepted it in the days of Ahasuerus, for it is written, [the Jews] confirmed, and took upon them [etc.]: [i.e.,] they confirmed what they had accepted long before (Shabbat 88a).

 

Rather than explaining R. Aha’s question away, Rava understood that revelation in fact crippled an aspect of free will. He proposed Purim as the antidote, since that represents the age when revelation ceased.

            Although prophecy was the ideal state—and we pray for its return—its absence enables the flourishing of human reason, as we no longer have access to absolute divine knowledge. We must take initiative in our relationship with God or else the relationship suffers. R. Zadok applied this human endeavor to the realm of Torah study. Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik understood prayer as replacing prophecy, precisely with the imperative of our responsibility to keep the lines of communication between God and humanity open:

In short, prayer and prophecy are two synonymous designations of the covenantal God-man colloquy. Indeed, the prayer community was born the very instant the prophetic community expired and, when it did come into the spiritual world of the Jew of old, it did not supersede the prophetic community but rather perpetuated it…If God had stopped calling man, they urged, let man call God (The Lonely Man of Faith [New York: Doubleday, 1992], pp. 57–58).

 

Institutionalizing prayer rescued intimacy with God by creating a new framework for this sacred dialogue.

            Although prophecy disappeared some 2,500 years ago, the underlying spiritual struggle continues to be manifest in contemporary society. Many people long for absolute knowledge of God’s Will. Consequently, there exists a compelling pull toward holy men (rebbes, kabbalists) or the over-extension of a da’at Torah concept that accords near-infallibility to Torah scholars. Though that appeal may be understandable, it must be remembered that (a) these individuals are not prophets and therefore do not have the certain divine knowledge that many accord to them; and (b) in an age lacking prophecy we have a far greater responsibility to learn Torah and pray, and to take that spiritual energy to infuse every aspect of our lives with sanctity. This requires a healthy dose of human reason and effort, coupled with an ongoing consultation with spiritual guides who can help us grow.

 

For further study, see:

Hayyim Angel, “The First Modern-Day Rabbi: A Midrashic Reading of Ezra,” in Revealed Texts, Hidden Meanings: Finding the Religious Significance in Tanakh(Jersey City, NJ: KTAV-Sephardic Publication Foundation, 2009), pp. 217–226.
Hayyim Angel, “The Theological Significance of the Urim VeThummim,” in Through an Opaque Lens (New York: Sephardic Publication Foundation, 2006), pp. 195–214.
Gerald Blidstein, “In the Shadow of the Mountain: Consent and Coercion at Sinai,” Jewish Political Studies Review 4:1 (1992), pp. 41–53.
Yaakov Elman, “R. Zadok HaKohen on the History of Halakha,” Tradition 21:4 (Fall 1985), pp. 1–26.
Yaakov Elman, “Reb Zadok HaKohen of Lublin on Prophecy in the Halakhic Process,” in Jewish Law Association Studies I: Touro Conference Volume, ed. B. S. Jackson (Chico, CA: Scholars Press, 1985), pp. 1–16.
Lawrence Kaplan, “Daas Torah: A Modern Conception of Rabbinic Authority,” in Rabbinic Authority and Personal Autonomy, ed. Moshe Sokol (Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson Inc., 1992), pp. 1–60.
Bezalel Naor, Lights of Prophecy (New York: Union of Orthodox Congregations, 1990).
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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Since people aren't getting mad at me
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2014, 03:44:53 AM »
Rabbi Mizrachi quoted someone in the lecture and said that prophesy still does exist today, but it is only given to children and mentally retarded people, since no one suspects it from them.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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Re: Since people aren't getting mad at me
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2014, 03:52:42 AM »
Rabbi Mizrachi quoted someone in the lecture and said that prophesy still does exist today, but it is only given to children and mentally retarded people, since no one suspects it from them.

I have heard that... It basically means it doesn't exist today...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Since people aren't getting mad at me
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2014, 03:54:58 AM »
http://www.oztorah.com/2014/01/fools-children-prophecy-ask-the-rabbi/

Fools, children & prophecy – Ask the Rabbi

Q. Does the Talmud really say that these days only fools and children think they are prophets?

A. Rabbi Yochanan says this in Bava Batra 12b. In contrast, Rabbi Avdimi says (BB 12a), “Since the destruction of the Temple, prophecy has been given to sages”.

R. Avdimi emphasises study and analysis: prophecy is a mental exercise. R. Yochanan emphasises the heart, soul and instinct.

Rabbi Joseph Carlebach credits R. Yochanan with a great discovery. “How often,” he says, “have children and fools hit upon the truth! The prophet takes a leap into the infinite… Maimonides gives this wonderful simile: ‘Prophetic inspiration is like the lightning on a dark night which suddenly illumines the entire landscape’ … To the prophet, to his own surprise, secrets reveal themselves… He is lifted up by the hand of the Almighty.

“Does prophetism then expose us to spiritual hazard?

“The answer is provided by the other saying: prophecy, since it ceased to exist in immediacy, belongs to the sage. The sage also can prophesy. By discovering the laws of nature and of history (he) can foretell the future course of events.”
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Since people aren't getting mad at me
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2014, 03:55:58 AM »
Debbie?

Low key bro or the whimpers will let loose.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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Re: Since people aren't getting mad at me
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2014, 03:58:45 AM »
Gotcha LKZ...

Here is a discussion of the Bava Batra gemara..

http://steinsaltz.org/learning.php?pg=Daf_Yomi&articleId=1687

Bava Batra 12a-b
September 02, 2009

When studying the Bible we find that prophecy begins to wane during the Second Temple times, and that by the time the Second Temple was destroyed, prophecy has largely ceased to exist. The Gemara on today's daf (=page) discusses what became of nev'uah – of prophecy.

Rabbi Yohanan taught that from the time the Temple was destroyed, nevu'ah was taken from the prophets and given to shotim and tinokot – to fools and to small children.

This difficult statement has been the center of much debate and discussion among the commentaries.

The Maharsha rejects the notion that true prophecy has been given to these kinds of people. The concept of prophecy – of the ability to receive the word of God – must be given to those people who are on a high spiritual and intellectual level. He suggests that we are not discussing true nevu'ah here, rather a lower level of foreknowledge that comes through a supernatural force, but not through a real relationship with God.

The Iyun Ya'akov suggests that the lack of nevu'ah after the destruction of the Temple is a consequence of the fact that en nevu'ah shorah ela mi-tokh simhah – that prophecy can only take place in a setting of joy – and after the destruction of the Temple, people with high levels of intellectual and spiritual sensitivity cannot reach a level of joy that would allow them to connect with the Almighty. Specifically because of their lack of sensitivity, fools and children may occasionally undergo a prophetic experience.

The Maharal explains that there is a constant barrage of prophetic waves that emanate from on high that are beyond the comprehension of people with normal intellect. Ordinarily, only select individuals – nevi'im – are able to tap into these waves and still retain their sanity, while ordinary people cannot receive these waves because of their source, which is beyond comprehension. It is specifically those individuals whose intellect does not stand in the way of their comprehension – like children and fools – who can occasionally receive these messages.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline cjd

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Re: Since people aren't getting mad at me
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2014, 06:00:50 AM »
Low key bro or the whimpers will let loose.
:::D Your funny  :::D
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

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