Author Topic: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist  (Read 4222 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Super Mentalita

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2003
  • Kill 'em all. Let God sort 'em out!
Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« on: August 27, 2014, 02:55:25 PM »
Interesting video about Babylon and the Anti-Christ. If someone will take the time to see it i like to hear his opinion about the video.

''At the siege of Vienna in 1683 Islam seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe.
We are in a new phase of a very old war.''

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2014, 03:05:53 PM »
The video missed a key point. There is a hero that will save us: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120177/
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Super Mentalita

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2003
  • Kill 'em all. Let God sort 'em out!
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2014, 03:07:27 PM »
The video missed a key point. There is a hero that will save us: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120177/

Haha Spawn is a movie from my youth lol! What has it to do with the Anti-Christ?  :::D
''At the siege of Vienna in 1683 Islam seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe.
We are in a new phase of a very old war.''

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2014, 03:12:02 PM »
Haha Spawn is a movie from my youth lol! What has it to do with the Anti-Christ?  :::D

They're both characters in a movie.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Super Mentalita

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2003
  • Kill 'em all. Let God sort 'em out!
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 03:19:40 PM »
They're both characters in a movie.

I am not to busy with this kind of stuff but the good thing is they point at Islam as the antichrist so i kind of like it lol
''At the siege of Vienna in 1683 Islam seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe.
We are in a new phase of a very old war.''

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2014, 03:32:25 PM »
I am not to busy with this kind of stuff but the good thing is they point at Islam as the antichrist so i kind of like it lol

That's what I heard, and was my first post on JTF, and boy did they hate me here. I since discovered it is nonsense. The New Testament says that the anti-crust will rebuild the temple of Hashem, and Torah says the Moshiah will. I picked sides, because G-d said he doesn't change his mind.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline syyuge

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 7684
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2014, 03:39:25 PM »
The top muslamic leader or the muslamic caliphate is going to be the depicted as the false prophet, which will be thrown in to the eternal fire along with the Big Beast and prior to that the red dragon will be chained and thrown in to the bottomless pit. 
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2014, 04:05:29 PM »
Pfft, stupid devil creature that is everywhere at once and knows everything and can challenge G-d doesn't even know that he can upgrade the dragon to a black one and then the fire won't hurt him http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Red_Dragon_and_Black_Dragon

The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2014, 04:07:09 PM »
There is no anti-crist... That is a Christian invention... Indeed there will be those who oppose the will of Hashem, but this is part of the plan... Read the prophets of the Tanakh to learn about Jewish belief concerning the end of days.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2014, 04:09:22 PM »
As religious Jews everywhere read last week:


2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2014, 04:14:03 PM »
The Xtians get the idea of the Antichrist from us, but have exaggerated his powers. The End Time opponent of the true Moshiach is referred to as "Armilus" by Chazal. R.Kahane quoted much from the Kol HaTor about Armilus in his "Jewish Idea"
http://www.koshertorah.com/pdf/armilus.pdf

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2014, 04:18:07 PM »
The Xtians get the idea of the Antichrist from us, but have exaggerated his powers. The End Time opponent of the true Moshiach is referred to as "Armilus" by Chazal. R.Kahane quoted much from the Kol HaTor about Armilus in his "Jewish Idea"
http://www.koshertorah.com/pdf/armilus.pdf

Yes, we discussed Armilus a few years ago in a thread... It is different though from the xtian belief.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline syyuge

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 7684
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2014, 04:23:39 PM »
Antixchrist is not there in the ancient scriptures. Some later people have somewhat successfully tried to plant him. 
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2014, 04:27:59 PM »
For those interested in a decent discussion of Armilus concerning the end-of-days scenario envisioned by the prophets and the sages of Jewish wisdom...



http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101747/jewish/Appendix-II.htm

By J. Immanuel Schochet

Jewish tradition speaks of two redeemers, each one called Mashiach. Both are involved in ushering in the Messianic era. They are Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Yossef.1

The term Mashiach unqualified always refers to Mashiach ben David (Mashiach the descendant of David) of the tribe of Judah. He is the actual (final) redeemer who shall rule in the Messianic age. All that was said in our text relates to him.

Mashiach ben Yossef (Mashiach the descendant of Joseph) of the tribe of Ephraim (son of Joseph), is also referred to as Mashiach ben Ephrayim, Mashiach the descendant of Ephraim.2 He will come first, before the final redeemer, and later will serve as his viceroy.3

The essential task of Mashiach ben Yossef is to act as precursor to Mashiach ben David: he will prepare the world for the coming of the final redeemer. Different sources attribute to him different functions, some even charging him with tasks traditionally associated with Mashiach ben David (such as the ingathering of the exiles, the rebuilding of the Bet Hamikdash, and so forth).4

The principal and final function ascribed to Mashiach ben Yossef is of political and military nature. He shall wage war against the forces of evil that oppress Israel. More specifically, he will do battle against Edom, the descendants of Esau.5 Edom is the comprehensive designation of the enemies of Israel,6 and it will be crushed through the progeny of Joseph. Thus it was prophesied of old, "The House of Jacob will be a fire and the House of Joseph a flame, and the House of Esau for stubble.." (Obadiah 1:18): "the progeny of Esau shall be delivered only into the hands of the progeny of Joseph."7

This ultimate confrontation between Joseph and Esau is alluded already in the very birth of Joseph when his mother Rachel exclaimed, "G‑d has taken away my disgrace" (Genesis 30:23): with prophetic vision she foresaw that an "anointed savior" will descend from Joseph and that he will remove the disgrace of Israel.8 In this context she called his name "Yossef, saying 'yossef Hashem - may G‑d add to me ben acher (lit., another son), i.e., ben acharono shel olam - one who will be at the end of the world's time,'9 from which it follows that 'meshu'ach milchamah - one anointed for battle' will descend from Joseph."10

The immediate results of this war11 will be disastrous: Mashiach ben Yossef will be killed. This is described in the prophecy of Zechariah, who says of this tragedy that "they shall mourn him as one mourns for an only child." (Zechariah 12:10).12 His death will be followed by a period of great calamities. These new tribulations shall be the final test for Israel, and shortly thereafter Mashiach ben David shall come, avenge his death, resurrect him, and inaugurate the Messianic era of everlasting peace and bliss.13

This, in brief, is the general perception of the "second Mashiach," the descendant of Joseph through the tribe of Ephraim.

Quite significantly, R. Saadiah Gaon (one of the few to elaborate on the role of Mashiach ben Yossef) notes that this sequence is not definite but contingent! Mashiach ben Yossef will not have to appear before Mashiach ben David, nor will the activities attributed to him or his death have to occur. All depends on the spiritual condition of the Jewish people at the time the redemption is to take place:

The essential function of Mashiach ben Yossef is to prepare Israel for the final redemption, to put them into the proper condition in order to clear the way for Mashiach ben David to come. Of that ultimate redemption it is said, that if Israel repent (return to G‑d) they shall be redeemed immediately (even before the predetermined date for Mashiach's coming). If they will not repent and thus become dependent on the final date, "the Holy One, blessed be He, will set up a ruler over them, whose decrees shall be as cruel as Haman's, thus causing Israel to repent, and thereby bringing them back to the right path."14 In other words, if Israel shall return to G‑d on their own and make themselves worthy of the redemption, there is no need for the trials and tribulations associated with the above account of events related to Mashiach ben Yossef. Mashiach ben David will come directly and redeem us.15

Moreover, even if there be a need for the earlier appearance of Mashiach ben Yossef, the consequences need not be as severe as described. Our present prayers and meritorious actions can mitigate these. R. Isaac Luria (Ari-zal) notes that the descendant of Joseph, by being the precursor of the ultimate Mashiach, is in effect kissey David, the "seat" or "throne" of David, i.e., of Mashiach. Thus when praying in the daily Amidah, "speedily establish the throne of Your servant David," one should consider that this refers to Mashiach ben Yossef and beseech G‑d that he should not die in the Messianic struggle.16 As all prayers, this one, too, will have its effect.

It follows, then, that all the above is not an essential or unavoidable part of the Messianic redemption that we await. Indeed, it - (and the same may be said of the climactic war of Gog and Magog) - may occur (or may have occured already!) in modified fashion.17 This may explain why Rambam does not mention anything about Mashiach ben Yossef. R. Saadiah Gaon18 and R. Hai Gaon,19 as well as a good number of commentators, do refer to him briefly or at length. In view of the divergent Midrashim and interpretations on this subject it is practically impossible to present a more definitive synopsis that would go far beyond the above. Thus it is wisest to cite and follow R. Chasdai Crescas who states that "no certain knowledge can be derived from the interpretations of the prophecies about Mashiach ben Yossef, nor from the statements about him by some of the Geonim;" there is no point, therefore, in elaborating on the subject.20


FOOTNOTES
1.   See Sukah 52b; Zohar I:25b; ibid. II:120a, III:153b, 246b and 252a. (See Sha'arei Zohar on Sukah 52a for further relevant sources in the Zohar-writings.)

2.   Sukah 52a-b; Zohar I:25b; ibid. III:246b and 252b etc.; and Midrash Agadat Mashiach; use the term Mashiach ben Yossef. Targum Yehonathan on Exodus 40:11; Zohar II:120a; ibid. 153b, 194b, and 243b etc.; Midrash Tehilim 60:3; and other Midrashim refer to Mashiach ben Ephrayim. Pesikta Rabaty, ch. 36-37 (ed. Friedmann, ch. 35-36) refers to Ephrayim Meshiach Tzidki (Ephraim, My righteous Mashiach); the term Ephraim, though, may relate here to collective Israel, thus referring to Mashiach ben David.
Pirkei Heichalot Rabaty, ch. 39 (Batei Midrashot, ed. Wertheimer, vol. I) and Sefer Zerubavel (ibid., vol. II), offer his personal name as Nechemiah ben Chushiel (likewise in Midrash Tehilim 60:3), adding "who is of Ephraim the son of Joseph." (Interestingly enough, Pirkei deR. Eliezer, ch. 19, calls him Menachem ben Ammi'el, the very name the other sources - and Zohar III:173b - attribute to Mashiach ben David.
Targum Yehonathan on Exodus 40:11 traces his descent to Joshua (cf. below, note 7). Other sources state that he is a descendant of Yeravam ben Nevat, with practical implications in the Providential scheme for this genealogy; see Zohar Chadash, Balak:56b; commentary of R. Abraham Galante on Zohar II:120a (cited in Or Hachamah there); and Emek Hamelech, Sha'ar Olam Hatohu:ch. 46. Cf Devash Lefi, s.v. mem:par. 18. (Note also the sources cited in Sha'arei Zohar on Sukah 52a with regards to other views about his lineage.)

3.   The harmony and cooperation between Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Yossef signifies the total unity of Israel, removing the historical rivalries between the tribes of Judah and Joseph; see Isaiah 11:13 and Rashi there. (Cf. Bereishit Rabba 70:15; and Torah Shelemah on Genesis 29:16, note 49.)

4.   See Pirkei Heichalot Rabaty, ch. 39; Sefer Zerubavel; Midrash Agadat Mashiach (most of which is quoted in Lekach Tov, Balak, on Numbers 24:17ff.); and cf. Rashi on Sukah 52b, s.v. charashim. See also Ramban, Commentary on Song 8:13.

5.   Note that the final battle of Mashiach ben Yossef is said to be against Armilus, ruler of Edom. See the Messianic Midrashim Zerubavel; Agadat Mashiach; Vayosha etc. (Specific references are offered in R. Margolius, Malachei Elyon, part II, s.v. Armilas; and see also the sources cited below, notes 18-19.) Note that the final battle of Mashiach ben Yossef is said to be against Armilus, ruler of Edom. See the Messianic Midrashim Zerubavel; Agadat Mashiach; Vayosha etc. (Specific references are offered in R. Margolius, Malachei Elyon, part II, s.v. Armilas; and see also the sources cited below, notes 18-19.)

6.   Edom is the perpetual enemy of Israel (see Sifre, Beha'alotecha, par. 69, cited by Rashi on Genesis 33:4; and see also Megilah 6a) and its final foe: the present galut is referred to as the galut of Edom (see Bereishit Rabba 44:17; Vayikra Rabba 13:5; and parallel passages) and Edom will be defeated ultimately by Mashiach (Obadiah; Yoma 10a; Midrash Tehilim 6:2; and cf. Tanchuma, Bo:4).
Interestingly enough, according to Pirkei deR. Eliezer ch. 28 (in non-censored versions), the Ishmaelites (Arabs) will be the final kingdom to be defeated by Mashiach. Other sources state "Edom and Ishmael" (see Torah Shelemah on Genesis 15:12, note 130). Note, however, Pirkei deR. Eliezer, ch. 44 (and cf. Midrash Tehilim 2:6 and 83:3) that Edom and Ishmael have become intermingled. See also Mayanei Hayeshu'ah, Mayan 11:8.

7.   Baba Batra 123b. Targum Yehonathan on Genesis 30:23. Tanchuma, ed. Buber, Vayetze:15; and Bereishit Rabba 73:7; and the parallel passages cited there. See Bereishit Rabba 99:2, that Edom shall fall by the meshu'ach milchamah (the one anointed for battle; see below, note 10 for this term) who will be descended from Joseph.
Mashiach ben Yossef's battle against Edom is analogous to, and the culmination of, Israel's first battle against Edom (Amalek) after the exodus from Egypt (Exodus 17:5ff.). In that first battle, the Jewish army was led by Joshua - who is also of the tribe of Ephraim, and (according to some) this Mashiach's ancestor (see above note 2); see Ramban on Exodus 17:9, and R. Bachaya on Exodus 18:1. Cf. also R. Bachaya on Exodus 1:5, drawing an analogy between the role of Joseph in Egypt and the role of the Mashiach descended from him in the ultimate redemption.

8.   The Messianic aspect is derived by analogy with Isaiah 4:1.

9.   The Messianic aspect is derived by analogy with Genesis 4:25 which in Agadat Mashiach (cited in Lekach Tov on Numbers 24:17) is put into Messianic context.

10.   Midrash Yelamdenu, cited in Kuntres Acharon of Yalkut Shimoni. (This Kuntres Acharon appears only in very few editions of Yalkut Shimoni, but was republished in Jellinek's Bet Hamidrash, vol. VI. Our passage appears there on p. 81, par. 20; and is also cited in Torah Shelemah on Genesis 30:23-24, par. 84 and 89.)
In context of his military function, Mashiach ben Yossef is referred to as meshu'ach milchamah (cf. Sotah 42a, and Rashi on Deuteronomy 20:2, for this term); see Bereishit Rabba 75:6 and 99:2; Shir Rabba 2:13 (a parallel passage of Sukah 52b); and Agadat Bereishit, ch. (63) 64.

11.   Targum Yehonathan on Exodus 40:11, and on Zechariah 12:10 (manuscript-version in ed. A. Sperber); Agadat Mashiach; Pirkei Heichalot Rabaty (in version cited by Ramban, Sefer Hage'ulah, sha'ar IV; ed. Chavel, p. 291); and Rashi on Sukah 52a; identify the battle of Mashiach ben Yossef with the war of Gog and Magog.

12.   Sukah 52a, and parallel passages.

13.   Pirkei Heichalot Rabaty, ch. 39 (cited in Sefer Hage'ulah, sha'ar IV); Sefer Zerubavel; Agadat Mashiach (cited in Lekach Tov, ibid.). See R. Saadiah Gaon, Emunot Vede'ot VIII:ch. 5, adding Scriptural "prooftexts" or allusions for all details; and the lengthy responsum of R. Hai Gaon on the redemption, published in Otzar Hageonim on Sukah 52a, and in Midreshei Ge'ulah, ed. Y. Ibn Shemuel, p. 135ff. Cf. Rashi and Ibn Ezra on Zechariah 12:10; Ibn Ezra and Redak on Zechariah 13:7.

14.   Sanhedrin 97b

15.   Emunot Vede'ot VIII:6; see there at length. Cf. Or Hachayim on Numbers 24:17.

16.   Peri Eitz Chayim, Sha'ar Ha'amidah:ch. 19; and Siddur Ha-Ari; on this blessing. The Ari's teaching is cited in Or Hachayim on Leviticus 14:9, see there (and also on Numbers 24:17, where he relates this prayer to the next blessing of the Amidah); and see also Even Shelemah, ch. 11, note 6. Cf. Zohar II:120a (and Or Hachamah there), and ibid. III:153b. See next note.

17.   The battle of Gog and Magog (see above, Appendix I, note 2) is another of the complex issues of the Messianic redemption. In fact, an authoritative tradition from the disciples of the Baal Shem Tov states that the extraordinary length of the present severe galut has already made up for the troubles of that battle and the trauma of the death of Mashiach ben Yossef, so that these will no longer occur; see R. Shemuel of Sochachev, Shem MiShemuel, Vayigash, s.v. Vayigash 5677 (s.v. venireh od, p. 298bf.).

18.   Emunot Vede'ot VIII:ch. 5-6. See also the commentary on Shir Hashirim attributed to R. Saadiah Gaon, published in Chamesh Megilot im Perushim Atikim (Miginzei Teyman), ed. Y. Kapach, on Song 7:12-14 (p. 115; and also in Midreshei Ge'ulah, p. 131f.; as noted already by the editors, this passage is most probably based on Sefer Zerubavel).

19.   See his extensive responsum, cited above note 13.

20.   Or Hashem, Ma'amar III, klal 8: end of ch. 1.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Super Mentalita

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2003
  • Kill 'em all. Let God sort 'em out!
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2014, 04:53:51 PM »
Pfft, stupid devil creature that is everywhere at once and knows everything and can challenge G-d doesn't even know that he can upgrade the dragon to a black one and then the fire won't hurt him http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Red_Dragon_and_Black_Dragon

Haha! I don't realy know what to think of this all i just opend the topic to find out with the JTF'ers think about this stuff. Now i know!  :::D
''At the siege of Vienna in 1683 Islam seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe.
We are in a new phase of a very old war.''

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2014, 06:07:14 PM »
I found this comprehensive discussion of several of the apocalyptic visions of the Jewish sages...

http://download.yutorah.org/2008/1053/726192.pdf

Gog and Magog

For a variety of reasons, is clear that sometime in the amoraic period, apocalyptic traditions were the subject of renewed interest and discussion in rabbinic circles. No doubt, the same was the case among the common people in both the land of Israel and in Babylonia. But for some reason, the emphasis changed in the manner in which such apocalyptic traditions were represented. In some rabbinic texts and in the later apocalyptic material that developed within the Jewish community, great emphasis was given to the war of Gog and Magog as prophesied by Ezekiel,23 and to other apocalyptic traditions from Second Temple times that were in various ways used to expand this prophecy.

    These expansions on Ezekiel’s prophecy of Gog of the Land of Magog came to the fore in Talmudic and medieval times in the form of the expectation of a great war, an Armageddon,24 between the forces of Gog and Magog, now described as two separate kings, and the messiah.25 Gog and Magog first appear as separate eschatological entities in the Sibylline Oracles (3:319, 512). Sib. Oracle 3 most probably dates to between 163–45 b.c.e.26 Thereafter, this notion is found in the New Testament (Rev. 20:8–9) where the two, Gog and Magog, will ally themselves with Satan against the righteous.27 These battles, to be fought at the end of days, carried on the tradition of apocalyptic war from the Second Temple period, and also involve the destruction of the Gentile enemies of Israel. The forces of the messiah are almost defeated by the forces of Gog and Magog, joined by all the nations of the world, but God’s miraculous, direct intervention brings about the victory of the messiah and the forces of good. These warlike ideas have been seen as simply the outlet for an oppressed population yearning for revenge,28 but we need to remember that they are a direct continuation of trends formed in Second Temple times in a period in which the Hasmonean House was at its height of independent Jewish power. Later circumstances may have nourished these notions but do not account for their origins.

    A number of sources indicate that the expectation of a great war of Gog and Magog was carried over into early Rabbinic Judaism. M. Ed. 2:10 speaks of the punishment of Gog and Magog as lasting for twelve months. Sifrei Deut. 35729 speaks of God’s showing Moses the Plain of Jericho where Gog and his armies will fall. Targum Yerushalmi to Num. 11:26 attributes a prophecy to Eldad and Medad to the effect that in the end of days Gog and Magog and their armies will fall to the King Messiah.30 Targum to Song of Songs 8:8–9 speaks of Israel’s victory as resulting not from superior force but from the merit of Torah study.

    This theme is also taken up in the Babylonian Talmud. According to Berakhot 12b–13a, the war of Gog and Magog is hinted at in Isa. 43:19 and will be a greater tribulation than any Israel has experienced.31 Similar is the theme of Ex. Rab. 12:232 that there will be a war such as that associated with the ten plagues (Ex. 9:18) in the days of Gog and Magog. Lev. Rab. 27:1133 tells us that Gog and Magog will attempt to defeat God Himself even before they attack Israel.

    All the notions we see here are in consonance with the general reentry of apocalyptic ideas into rabbinic tradition in amoraic times.34 Post amoraic texts, most from late Byzantine or early Moslem times, lay out the future eschatological war in much more complex terms.

War in Medieval Eschatology

A variety of post-Talmudic texts expanded greatly on these ideas and converted them into full-scale apocalypses. These texts, or their sources, were composed in the years during which the Persian Empire was battling Byzantium in the early seventh century or in the years immediately before and after the conquest of the Byzantine Empire by the Arabs. These events greatly stimulated apocalyptic messianism in the Jewish community.35

    An important early example of this genre is Sefer Zerubbabel.36 An angel, Michael or Metatron, reveals the eschatological secrets to Zerubbabel, including the expected war of Gog and Magog in which the messiah, son of Joseph (Cf. Sukkah 52a and Targum Ps. Jon. Exod. 40:11), is killed and the Davidic messiah, with the help of his mother Hephzi-Bah, eventually defeats the forces of evil headed by Armilus. This victory is essentially that of the Jewish people over the Christian Roman (Byzantine) Empire. This text, because of its early date, seems to have influenced many of the later medieval Jewish apocalypses, but the absence of some of its specific details in the other accounts argues against direct dependence.37 The revelation of secrets by a heavenly being is typical of Second Temple apocalyptic literature. 38

    Aggadat Bereshit39 pictures Gog as deciding that his only hope is to directly and initially attack the Holy One, blessed be He, but, of course, God defeated him easily. Midrash Tehillim40 pictures a more systemic type of battle. Here, Gog and Magog are expected to attack Israel three times, and in the fourth battle to attack Jerusalem and Judah, but God will help the men of Judah to defeat them.

    A full apocalyptic account appears in a small text entitled Sefer Eliyahu u-Firqe Mashiah.41 This is truly an apocalyptic text involving the divulging of secrets of the future by a heavenly being, Michael, to the prophet Elijah. It also has the familiar ingredient of the heavenly guided tour, which typifies what scholars now call the apocalyptic genre.42

    Here the last king of Persia will go up to Rome for three years and then rebel against Rome for an additional twelve months. He will defeat mighty warriors from the sea, and then another king will arise from the sea and shake the world. He will then come to the Temple Mount and burn it, leading to suffering and war in Israel.

    A certain Demetrus, son of Poriphus, and Anphilipus, son of Panapos, will wage a second war, each with 100,000 cavalry and 100,000 infantry. 300,000 soldiers will be hidden in ships. Then the messiah, named Yinnon,43 will come. Gabriel will descend, slay 92,000 men, and devastate the world. A third war will then take place, and many will be killed in the land of Israel. Then the messiah will come with the angels of destruction and later with 30,000 righteous men, destroying all Israel’s enemies. This will bring an end to the rule of the four kingdoms and usher in a period of prosperity and rejoicing. Then God will bring Gog and Magog and their legions, and they and all the peoples will surround and attack Jerusalem, but the messiah, with God’s help, will fight them and defeat them.

    The notion of the 70 nations, that is, all the nations of the world, making war against Jerusalem is also found in Zohar 2:58b. But here God uproots them from the world. The text even suggests that in order to reveal His greatness, God will reassemble all the enemies of Israel and defeat them at the coming of the messiah.

    A final, extensive example is Midrash Alpha Betot.44 After the messiah gathers the exiles to Jerusalem and rebuilds the Temple, and all the nations recognize his rule, peace and security will reign for 40 years. Then, in order to destroy the forces of evil, God will bring Gog and Magog to attack the land of Israel and launch three wars against Israel, having spent seven years assembling a mighty, well-armed force. The invasion will be massive, entering the land from the north. Israel will soon be conquered, all cities and towns taken, and their riches despoiled.

    Then the messiah and the pious will make war against them and a great slaughter will ensue. God will enter the battle bringing plagues like those of Egypt and heavenly fires will burn the forces of Gog and Magog. Along the way we learn that the messiah is called Ephraim, and so it appears that we deal with a messiah, son of Joseph, who appears to be victorious.45 Then the inhabitants of Jerusalem will despoil their attackers and fill Jerusalem with the weapons and riches of Gog and Magog. The weapons will be burnt as fuel and the bodies of Gog and Magog and their armies will be eaten by animals, and their blood drunk. Then Israel will bury them and cleanse the entire land.

    In various medieval texts, the evil king Armilus leads the forces of the nations against Israel and the messiah in the great battle of the end of days.46 His name seems to derive from Romulus, the legendary founder of ancient Rome.47 He is mentioned in the Targum to Isa. 11:4, where “rasha” is defined as “the wicked Armilus.” He appears also in Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan to Deut. 34:3, which also refers to the troops of Gog and to their battles with Michael.48 In some texts, Armilus kills the messiah, son of Joseph, but is himself killed by the Davidic messiah. Tefillat R. Shimon ben Yohai49 assumes that Nehemiah is equivalent to the messiah, son of Joseph, and that there will be a big battle occasioned by Armilus’ messianic claims. A number of texts stress his ugly, deformed physical appearance.50

    In this context, it is usual to assume that the notion of wars taking place at the onset of the end of days is consistent with the apocalyptic, catastrophic form of Jewish messianism and not with the naturalistic approach.51 Yet this apocalyptic notion seems to have made its way into mainstream medieval Rabbinic thought. Sa’adya Gaon (Emunot ve-De’ot 8:5–6)52 sets out the entire messiah, son of Joseph/Armilus battle myth53 as an option that would take place if Israel did not repent on its own. If it did, however, the messiah son of David would destroy Armilus directly and then fight the battle of Gog and Magog. In any case, Sa’adya seems to assume a messianic battle.54

    Even Maimonides, a member of the rationalistic, naturalistic school of Jewish messianism, fully expects wars to take place at the onset of the end of days. In describing the nature of the messianic era and of the process that will usher it in, Maimonides, Hilkhot Melakhim 11:4, after making clear that he espouses the gradualistic, natural form of Jewish messianism (11:3, 12:1–2), tells us that to attain the state of “presumptive messiah” (hezkat mashiah), the messiah will have to fight “the wars of the Lord.”55 Such wars clearly refer to the defeat of the enemies of Israel who oppose the fulfillment of God’s will in the world. In 12:2, Maimonides tells us that the messianic era will be inaugurated with the battle of Gog and Magog, in accord with the prophecies in Ezekiel.56 But clearly, for Maimonides these prophecies are understood to refer to the messiah’s role as the deliverer of Israel from foreign domination. So we can expect that this is a reference to wars of a very different sort from the apocalyptic battles that we have seen described in other texts. Here God is not a soldier, even if His help is hoped for and expected. It seems, therefore, that the expectation of war in the end of days in which the evildoers would be destroyed and in which the enemies of Israel would be defeated was actually common to both the apocalyptic and naturalistic forms of medieval Jewish messianism.57
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2014, 06:17:05 PM »
http://www.vatileaks.com/_blog/Vati_Leaks/post/Why_does_God_keep_changing_his_word/

 :whew:

Im not going to read that link. The statement flies in the face of Jewish belief though. Hashem's word is truth, it is forever, it is immutable, and it does not change.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2014, 06:29:42 PM »
Im not going to read that link. The statement flies in the face of Jewish belief though. Hashem's word is truth, it is forever, it is immutable, and it does not change.
:::D it's about the oldest NT. An atheist may have written it though...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2014, 06:32:27 PM »
Come on, everyone should read it. Everyone is doing it.. come on, it will be okay.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2014, 06:35:36 PM »
Come on, everyone should read it. Everyone is doing it.. come on, it will be okay.

So it is okay to eat pork? Did that change?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2014, 06:44:55 PM »
So it is okay to eat pork? Did that change?
A lot of things have changed. ... IF YOU WOULD JUST READ IT!

The law doesn’t change. NO you can't it pig, it doesn't chew it's cud . Don't ask again! };-)>
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2014, 09:09:27 PM »
The NT does not say the Antichrist will rebuild the temple--merely that he will be seated in "the temple of God". There is some debate as to what that actually means. It could be the Jewish temple, the Vatican, some religious tabernacle that he creates for himself to be worshiped in, or something else.

I don't know why this has to be another Jewish-Christian fight. Both of our religions state that there will be an evil world leader who makes war on the Jews at the end of days--can't we leave it at that without trying to convert or disprove the other?

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2014, 09:44:14 PM »
OK people.   Please let's not get into another Judaism vs. Christianity thing again. 

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: Mystery Babylon today and birth of the Antichrist
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2014, 09:47:58 PM »
I'm not trying too! I think we are all fighting over the same thing with different interpretation. My post was to show how we can get away from truth! And bad translations and lies can make us enemies. ..
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.