To fast on tzom gedliah or not?

[ChabadKahanist]

I am thinking why fast for somebody who was a lackey of the Roman occupation because he was killed any thoughts?
I know I am a day off but good question anyway.

[kyel]

http://www.torah.org/learning/yomtov/yomkippur/vol1no39.html

 It is true that Gedalya's death in it of itself was a tragedy, as he was righteous. However, it is because of the effect his death had - that all Jews left the land of Israel and went into exile - that we fast.


(Source Above)

[ChabadKahanist]

http://www.torah.org/learning/yomtov/yomkippur/vol1no39.html

 It is true that Gedalya's death in it of itself was a tragedy, as he was righteous. However, it is because of the effect his death had - that all Jews left the land of Israel and went into exile - that we fast.


(Source Above)

I am not saying that I disagree with this or that I didn't already know this,however he was still a lackey for the occupation & I posted this as food for thought.

[kyel]

Gedaliah encouraged the Jews to come back to Judea, he was using the situation & wisdom Hashem put him in to his advantage, similar to Esther.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am not saying that I disagree with this or that I didn't already know this,however he was still a lackey for the occupation & I posted this as food for thought.

And he answered you with some thoughts.

I don't see how he was a lackey of the occupation: could you elaborate on that point of view?
My understanding was that he was the last vestige of Jewish self rule within the newly occupying force and chazal identiified his murder as ending the last hope of a significant number of Jews remaining in Judea or maintaining any kind of strong Jewish presence in the land during that exile period.
The more disconnected we were, the more difficult it would be to reestablish the Jewish nationhood and we see how rooted some of the exiled became in Bavel.  The weakness of the returnee movement under Ezra directly contributed to the problems experienced during the Second Temple period.   

I think this discussion raises a key point which is sometimes missed by the right wing, including charedim and some kahanists and rightwing national religious.   Namely, we see how strongly chazal felt about Jewish self rule in the. Land of Israel and its critiical importance to Judaism.  They prioritized this very highly.    It is a value in and of itself, independent of who precisely is in charge of that self rule or how righteous they are or are not.


On a separate note, I think in exceptional cases where an individual might disagree with chazal's reasoning, he still has good reason to observe their instituted law on that issue anyway.     Because we accepted chazal's overarching legal authority to make these laws.  Granted this is not a positive philosophy one should view all mitzvah observance with, but it does give reason in individual cases to bow one's neck and step in line.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

What was Elisha's ben Netanyahu's motivation?

[ChabadKahanist]

And he answered you with some thoughts.

I don't see how he was a lackey of the occupation: could you elaborate on that point of view?
My understanding was that he was the last vestige of Jewish self rule within the newly occupying force and chazal identiified his murder as ending the last hope of a significant number of Jews remaining in Judea or maintaining any kind of strong Jewish presence in the land during that exile period.
The more disconnected we were, the more difficult it would be to reestablish the Jewish nationhood and we see how rooted some of the exiled became in Bavel.  The weakness of the returnee movement under Ezra directly contributed to the problems experienced during the Second Temple period.   

I think this discussion raises a key point which is sometimes missed by the right wing, including charedim and some kahanists and rightwing national religious.   Namely, we see how strongly chazal felt about Jewish self rule in the. Land of Israel and its critiical importance to Judaism.  They prioritized this very highly.    It is a value in and of itself, independent of who precisely is in charge of that self rule or how righteous they are or are not.


On a separate note, I think in exceptional cases where an individual might disagree with chazal's reasoning, he still has good reason to observe their instituted law on that issue anyway.     Because we accepted chazal's overarching legal authority to make these laws.  Granted this is not a positive philosophy one should view all mitzvah observance with, but it does give reason in individual cases to bow one's neck and step in line.

How was he a lackey he was governor under the Roman occupation that's how.
However as you stated & I at no point said otherwise being that Chazal instituted the fast it should be done unless for medical reasons one has a heter from a rav.
I just started this thread as food for thought.

[Sveta]

Interestingly, I always hear things like "those who fast for Gedalia" making it seem "optional". In fact, in the frum area in LA this Sunday the restaurants were open and I saw people eating. Yet, personally, I don't know anyone who does not fast.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Interestingly, I always hear things like "those who fast for Gedalia" making it seem "optional". In fact, in the frum area in LA this Sunday the restaurants were open and I saw people eating. Yet, personally, I don't know anyone who does not fast.

 Its the most lenient fast.

 The restaurants are allowed to be open on most fast days ,excluding Yom HaKippur of course where one cannot not only eat but do Melacha, and possible (I don't remember exactly) maybe Tishabav as well where melacha (such as driving etc. ) is allowed but its a more serious fast day.
 But the other fasts that start in the morning till night (according to many only until sunset) , the minor fasts the restaurants are open.

 This is the most lenient fast because its always considered a fast that was/is postponed and not only this year because of Shabbat but every year because it was really on the second day on Rosh Hashana and its postponed to the next day because of the Hag. (or like this year 2 days, the Hag and Shabbat as well).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

How was he a lackey he was governor under the Roman occupation that's how.
However as you stated & I at no point said otherwise being that Chazal instituted the fast it should be done unless for medical reasons one has a heter from a rav.
I just started this thread as food for thought.

He was governor of the JEWS and under babylonian occupation, not Roman.   When he was killed, the Jews were no longer allowed to self-govern.  It was a semi autonomy they had been allowed to have but now fell under direct authority of foreign govt.   I think maybe you have the history wrong and it is coloring your view on his status as "lackey" which I don't think was really his role.

[ChabadKahanist]

He was governor of the JEWS and under babylonian occupation, not Roman.   When he was killed, the Jews were no longer allowed to self-govern.  It was a semi autonomy they had been allowed to have but now fell under direct authority of foreign govt.   I think maybe you have the history wrong and it is coloring your view on his status as "lackey" which I don't think was really his role.

Thanks for the correction.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

He was like Daniel but in the Land of Israel. Daniel was taken captive and was to Nebuchadnezzar like Joseph was to Pharaoh. Daniel has a whole book named after him.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

The Fast of Esther is actually the most lenient because it's not from the prophets. It's only from the sages. Our fast is not the same fast that Esther fasted which was actually during Passover. The four fasts for the Destruction of the Temple are commanded by the prophets in Nevi'im. So the Fast of Esther is a lower level of a Rabbinic commandment. Tzom Gedaliah I guess is the most lenient of the four though. The Tenth of Tevet, which is chronologically the first of the fasts although it's in the Tenth Month so it's listed last, is one of the most severe since it would even override Shabbat if it were to fall on Shabbat (It can't in our fixed calendar.). The Tenth of Tevet is what led to the calamities of the other fasts. Similarly, Tisha B'Av is more severe until Halachic Noon even though the Temple actually began to burn in the afternoon and continued to burn into the Tenth of Av.  Since it began on the Ninth of Av, we mark the beginning of the calamity but continue to abstain from meat and the other restrictions of the Nine Days until the afternoon of the Tenth of Av.