re mitzvot and Talmud

[shai77]

The Talmud is actually great...at least what I have read of it... The levels of holiness of the sages must have been unimaginable...to say a blessing over basically every bit of food eaten and to discuss all the intricacies of laws.

I think a lot of Jews don't understand any of the religious texts because even a lot of people who had bar mitzvahs read in Hebrew without understanding the commandments.

Once one reads the 613 commandments thoroughly, then they can start to understand some of the discourse of the Talmud and how the rulings could apply to a future society in Israel. The laws of agricultural business could probably be applied to hitech businesses as well.

What a beautiful society it could be to live in where these laws are the basis...

Maybe it is not so hard to keep the commandments if one knows them and understands them...

The 613 mitzvot are really perfect. I used to doubt it a lot...now I think these things must be taught.

The worst thing in life is to understand the truth and beauty of the Torah, once it is basically too late, once the mind and soul have become contaminated by corruption...

Hakadosh Baruch Hu knew what he was doing when he created the Torah...

[shai77]

Also, when the Temple is built there will probably be a lot of activity revolving around these teachings...and I think the people that have this knowledge will be sought after...

[shai77]

it could be good to own a ranch and be a herder... grow crops and study the Bible and the words and rulings of the great sages...maybe play the nevel...Bring the unblemished sheep to the Temple of the Lord for sacrifice a few times per year... sheer the fleeces of other sheep and give them as gifts to Temple priests to make jacket linings for the snowy days in Jerusalem...

what a great vision the prophets had...

[muman613]

Amen Shai.... I am very pleased to read that you are studying our heritage, the writings of the sages of Israel, our Holy works.

Indeed the core of Judaism is a society which works in tandem with Hashems will. The Mitzvot are actions we do in order to connect with the Creator, our Father, the Holy One blessed is he. The Talmud is the oral tradition which was given to us at the same time as the written law but was not written on paper till after the destruction of the 2nd Temple. It is impossible to keep the 613 commandments without the oral law.

[shai77]

Amen Shai.... I am very pleased to read that you are studying our heritage, the writings of the sages of Israel, our Holy works.

Indeed the core of Judaism is a society which works in tandem with Hashems will. The Mitzvot are actions we do in order to connect with the Creator, our Father, the Holy One blessed is he. The Talmud is the oral tradition which was given to us at the same time as the written law but was not written on paper till after the destruction of the 2nd Temple. It is impossible to keep the 613 commandments without the oral law.

Why is there so much ignorance about this today? This stuff is not that complicated once you understand it, but I have seen few teachers who break it down and explain it in terms that everyone can understand so they can study and discuss the laws in applicable situations.

Would it not be more correct to say the Talmud is a discussion of the oral tradition? Or a written record of oral discussion about the oral tradition?

I don't think the Talmud is exactly the oral tradition that was given at the same time as the written law but rather further developments on the law based on thorough reading and discussion of the texts and oral laws.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[muman613]

Why is there so much ignorance about this today? This stuff is not that complicated once you understand it, but I have seen few teachers who break it down and explain it in terms that everyone can understand so they can study and discuss the laws in applicable situations.

Would it not be more correct to say the Talmud is a discussion of the oral tradition? Or a written record of oral discussion about the oral tradition?

I don't think the Talmud is exactly the oral tradition that was given at the same time as the written law but rather further developments on the law based on thorough reading and discussion of the texts and oral laws.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

According to my understanding the oral law was given to Moses at Sinai. It was intended to allow the Jewish people to observe the commandments. Without these traditions we would not have Tefillin, Mezuzahs, Kosher meat because the Torah did not exactly explain those concepts in the Written law. Now the tradition was passed down through the generations as the first pasuk in Pirkie Avot discusses...

The concept of Mesorah (or the lineage of the tradition from teacher to student) is the very first few mishnahs of the Talmud volume called 'Ethics of the Fathers' / Pirkie Avot:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2165/jewish/Chapter-One.htm

1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and gave it over to Joshua. Joshua gave it over to the Elders, the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets gave it over to the Men of the Great Assembly. They [the Men of the Great Assembly] would always say these three things: Be cautious in judgment. Establish many pupils. And make a safety fence around the Torah.

2. Shimon the Righteous was among the last surviving members of the Great assembly. He would say: The world stands on three things: Torah, the service of G-d, and deeds of kindness.

3. Antignos of Socho received the tradition from Shimon the Righteous. He would say: Do not be as slaves, who serve their master for the sake of reward. Rather, be as slaves who serve their master not for the sake of reward. And the fear of Heaven should be upon you.

4. Yossei the son of Yoezer of Tzreidah, and Yossei the son of Yochanan of Jerusalem, received the tradition from them. Yossei the son of Yoezer of Tzreidah would say: Let your home be a meeting place for the wise; dust yourself in the soil of their feet, and drink thirstily of their words.

5. Yossei the son of Yochanan of Jerusalem would say: Let your home be wide open, and let the poor be members of your household. And do not engage in excessive conversation with a woman. This is said even regarding one's own wife--how much more so regarding the wife of another. Hence, the sages said: One who excessively converses with a woman causes evil to himself, neglects the study of Torah, and, in the end, inherits purgatory.

6. Joshua the son of Perachia and Nitai the Arbelite received from them. Joshua the son of Perachia would say: Assume for yourself a master, acquire for yourself a friend, and judge every man to the side of merit.

7. Nitai the Arbelite would say: Distance yourself from a bad neighbor, do not cleave to a wicked person, and do not abandon belief in retribution.

8. Judah the son of Tabbai and Shimon the son of Shotach received from them. Judah the son of Tabbai would say: When sitting in judgement, do not act as a counselor-at-law. When the litigants stand before you, consider them both guilty; and when they leave your courtroom, having accepted the judgement, regard them as equally righteous.

9. Shimon the son of Shotach would say: Increasingly cross-examine the witnesses. Be careful with your words, lest they learn from them how to lie.

10. Shmaayah and Avtalyon received from them. Shmaayah would say: Love work, loath mastery over others, and avoid intimacy with the government.

11. Avtalyon would say: Scholars, be careful with your words. For you may be exiled to a place inhabited by evil elements [who will distort your words to suit their negative purposes]. The disciples who come after you will then drink of these evil waters and be destroyed, and the Name of Heaven will be desecrated.

12. Hillel and Shammai received from them. Hillel would say: Be of the disciples of Aaron--a lover of peace, a pursuer of peace, one who loves the creatures and draws them close to Torah.

After the destruction of the 2nd Temple there was concern that the teachers would not be able to teach directly to the next generation so they decided to actually write it down in a form which demonstrated the various understandings of the sages of the period including the sayings and teachings of various great rabbis.

http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/oraltorah.html

What is the Oral Torah?

As mentioned earlier, there are two "Torahs": the Written and the Oral. In Jewish tradition, both were given to Moses at Mt. Sinai and during the forty years in the desert, and taught to the whole nation. [In fact, when Judaism says "G-d gave the Torah to Moses at Sinai" it is talking only about the Oral -- otherwise, Moses should have known about the Golden Calf, and as for Korach's Rebellion, Moses should have reacted "well, we've been expecting you..."]

Both have been with us, according to Jewish sources, for all of the past 3300 years. And without both, it is impossible to fully understand traditional Jewish teaching or thought. The Written Torah, mentiones each of the Commandments, or Mitzvos, only in passing or by allusion. The Oral Law fills in the gaps.

Here is an example: "And you shall tie them as a sign on your arm and for (Totafos) between your eyes." (Deut. 6 8) This is the source for the Mitzvah of Tefillin (phylacteries - if that's any clearer), but it doesn't tell us that much. From this alone, we'd never know how to do this Mitzvah. What are we supposed to tie to the arm? With what do we tie it? What are "Totafos?" What is it a sign of? Without the Oral Law, quite simply, there's no Mitzvah of Tefillin. And there aren't too many other Mitzvos that'll make much sense either. Not, that is, without some form of commentary.

With that said, it wouldn't have made any sense for the Author of the Five Books to have left us nothing more than tantalizing hints we still would have no idea what to do. So, either the Torah was written by an idiot (or a relatively clueless 'redactor' according to modern theorists) who just never thought things through enough to tell us what to put into our Tefillin... or there must be an instruction manual somewhere that came in the same package. We call this "instruction manual" the Oral law.

Let's see another example. "When you shall be far away from the place that the L-rd your G-d shall choose to place His name (i.e. when you'll live far from Jerusalem and the Temple), slaughter from your herd and from your flock that which the L-rd has given you, as He has commanded you..." (Deut. 12 21)

This passage informs us that even when we will live far away from the Temple, we will still be able to enjoy meat (for the entire 40 years in the wilderness the Jews ate meat only from Temple/Tabernacle offerings). Simply take an animal from your own herd or flock and slaughter it..."as He has commanded you." Now, you can search the Bible from beginning to end, but you won't find any instructions or command concerning the technique of animal slaughter that would justify the words "as He has commanded you." It's simply not there. Either the author of this Torah forgot... it slipped his mind... he had a bad day (you know, his kids were going berzerk, the air conditioner broke down, and nothing went right) or else He gave us an Oral Law to go with the written. Not surprisingly, Jewish tradition sides with the latter possibility.

So if it's an "Oral" Law, how come it's written down? The answer has to do with human frailty.

In the lifetime of Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi (around 1700 years ago), Roman persecution, the recent destruction of the second Temple and the disruption of stable Jewish community life threatened our ability to properly retain and transmit this oral law. Rabbi Yehuda, therefore, wrote down the bare basics in the Mishna. A couple of centuries of hardship and persecution later, the rabbis of Babylonia saw a need to record even more detail and compiled a written version of what is known as the Talmud. Somewhere in between, the rabbis of Israel had begun work on a "Jerusalem Talmud" which is still an important part of the Jewish library, but, due to Roman/Christian persecution, was never really finished.

So why wasn't it written down in the first place? There are many reasons, but think of this. The Torah contains 613 Mitzvos, their many and detailed instructions and the information needed to apply them to every possible circumstance that history can throw at the Jewish people (e.g. electricity and the Sabbath). It includes the philosophy that binds a Jew to the Torah and the fire that will ignite the heart of each Jew in the service of his G-d. Now there are as many different types of Jews as there are Jews, and each one has a different "boiling point," yet for each of us there's a path to true emotional involvement in Mitzvah-observance and Torah study. And that path is found in the Oral Torah.

Writing down the Oral Law in a book you'd be able to carry on something smaller than the average bus, yet which contained all of the detail and variety we've discussed, is simply not practical. Now that Rabbis have devoted themselves to writing down their oral teachings, libraries of Jewish books, all "Torah", have been published. Furthermore, reading such a book in a way that keeps the flavor of a living Torah -- one you've learned from a living teacher who learned from his living teacher who learned from his... is also a challenge. So in the best of all possible worlds, the oral Torah would have best been kept oral -- but we simply cannot remember it all.

Does that mean that, now, in the imperfect world in which we live, that we no longer have the real thing? Jewish tradition says no. Despite the fact that we have printed versions of the Talmud and many other books as well, the Oral Torah is still oral at its essence. For one thing, it's nearly impossible to master the logic and style of the Talmud without a real, live teacher. As brilliant as you might be, and even with an English translation, it will probably remain a confused collection of scattered ideas and disjointed reasoning until you're given the key by an expert. We're forced, therefore, to take our Talmud with a dose of the oral Torah.

In addition, the Talmud's oral flavor can still be tasted through its flexibility. Take, as an example, the 19th Century decision that the opening and closing of electrical circuits was prohibited on the Sabbath. This decision wasn't a simple matter of personal preference or a random guess, but, as a review of the literature will show, was firmly rooted in the Talmud itself.

[shai77]

these sages had great wisdom. as far as I understand it was permitted to write down oral traditions on separate scrolls but not to combine them.

I think the Talmud is elaborations on the oral tradition, like
what to do in such and such a situation...fine nuances of the law with varying opinions.

If you are into this sort of thing I imagine it would be the greatest thing in the world to know and conduct yourself by it.

[muman613]

these sages had great wisdom. as far as I understand it was permitted to write down oral traditions on separate scrolls but not to combine them.

I think the Talmud is elaborations on the oral tradition, like
what to do in such and such a situation...fine nuances of the law with varying opinions.

If you are into this sort of thing I imagine it would be the greatest thing in the world to know and conduct yourself by it.

Talmud study goes on today by many Jews all over the world. You are aware of the Daf Yomi cycle? It is a yearly study program so that everyone studies the same tractate the same time. Each day has a particular page of Talmud to study.

The daily daf is available online @

http://www.dafyomi.org/index.php

http://www.dafyomi.co.il/dafyomi.htm

"Dafyomi," (or Daf Yomi) means a "page (Daf) a day (Yomi)," and refers to the system of Talmud study started on Rosh Hashanah 5684 (Sept. 11, 1923) by Rabbi Meir Shapiro.

Rabbi Shapiro, Rabbi of Pietrkov and Lublin and representative of the Jewish community in the Polish senate, was one of the brilliant and dynamic leaders of world Jewry in the early 20th century. For more about him, see here.

Although Jews have always studied the Talmud, Rabbi Shapiro's goal was to unite Jews all over the world by having them study the same page of Talmud each day, and to enable the Jewish layman to accomplish the great achievement of completing the entire Talmud which, with his system of a page a day, would take seven years (2,711 pages). Click here for a CALENDAR OF THE CURRENT DAFYOMI CYCLE.

Today, Dafyomi study is often structured around a daily, hour-long lecture or study group. Invariably, one who has succeeded in completing one Dafyomi cycle will enthusiastically start the cycle all over again. An entire lifetime is not enough time to truly master the Talmud in all of its aspects.

Because of the vast breadth and depth of the encyclopedic Talmud, only those with a very strong commitment to complete the Talmud actually make it through the seven-year cycle. It requires much discipline to structure one's daily time for Talmud study around inclement weather, family celebrations, vacations, and the like.

Since the Talmud is the essence of traditional, authentic Judaism --as it comprises the Oral Law and forms the basis for Halachah and Jewish living -- one who is familiar with the various sections of the Talmud has a more profound understanding of Jewish ethics and practice and finds his day-to-day living much more meaningful.

[muman613]

Regarding the 'varying opinion' of the rabbis of the Talmud...

It is said that each and every opinion published in the Talmud is true. Even those opinions which contradict each other.

This is evidenced in the story of the disagreement between Hillel and Shammai, which although be contradictory were both true.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/hillel_and_shammai/

The schools of Hillel and Shammai are famous for their disputes in Jewish law. One of these concerned whether one should tell a bride on her wedding day that she is beautiful even if this is not true. The school of Shammai held that in this situation it would be wrong to lie. The school of Hillel held that a bride is always beautiful on her wedding day. (Talmud, Ketubot 16b-17a) The school of Hillel won the dispute. Indeed, Jewish law today almost always agrees with the school of Hillel. The Talmud (Eruvin 13b) explains why:

A heavenly voice declared: “The words of both schools are the words of the living God, but the law follows the rulings of the school of Hillel.”

So why does the law follow the rulings of the school of Hillel? The Talmud explains that the disciples of Hillel were gentle and modest, and studied both their own opinions and the opinions of the other school, and humbly mentioned the words of the other school before their own.

[muman613]

It being the High Holidays I started to read portions of Talmud Mesechet Rosh Hashanah the other day.... My tagline comes from 16a... The discussion which the sages had concerning how judgement is passed on man is fascinating..

Our Mishnah seems to agree neither with R. Meir nor with R. Judah nor with R. Jose nor with R. Nathan. For it has been taught: ‘All are judged12 on New Year and their doom is sealed on the Day or Atonement. So R. Meir. R. Judah says: All are judged on New Year and the separate dooms are sealed each in its time — on Passover in respect of produce, on Pentecost in respect of fruit, on Tabernacles judgment is passed in respect of rain, and man is judged on New Year and his doom is sealed on the Day of Atonement. R. Jose says: Man is judged every day, as it says, And thou dost visit him every morning.13 R. Nathan says: Man is judged every moment, as it says, Thou dost try him every moment’.14 Should you maintain that it is after all in accordance with Rabbi Judah, [the seasons] mentioned in our Mishnah referring to the final doom, we may retort that if so there is a difficulty with the case of man!15 — Raba replied: This Tanna [of our Mishnah] follows the Tanna of the school of R. Ishmael, since it has been taught in the school of R. Ishmael: ‘At four seasons judgment is passed on the world, on Passover in respect of produce, on Pentecost in respect of fruit, on Tabernacles judgment is passed in respect of rain, and man is judged on New Year and his doom is sealed on the Day of Atonement’. The statements of the Mishnah must then be taken to refer to the preliminary judgment.

[muman613]

Further in the same page we find the following, explaining clearly why we say 'Tefilla, Tzedakah, and Teshuva' reverse the evil decree:

 R. Isaac further said: Four things cancel the doom of a man, namely, charity, supplication, change of name and change of conduct. Charity, as it is written, And charity delivereth from death.12 Supplication, as it is written, Then they cried unto the Lord in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.13 Change of name, as it is written, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be;14 and it continues, And I will bless her and moreover I will give thee a son of her. Change of conduct, as it is written, And God saw their works, and it continues, and God repented of the evil which he said he would do unto them and he did it not.15 Some say that change of place [also avails], as it is written, Now the Lord said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and it proceeds, and I will make of thee a great nation.16 And the other [ — why does he not reckon this]? — In that case it was the merit of the land of Israel which availed him.