Being Tough with Evil Gentiles and Being A Light Unto the Nations

[edu]

A friend of mine talked to a Likud member of Parliment and suggested some tough measures we could do against the Evil Gentiles.
The answer he got, we can't do that, we have to be "A Light Unto the Nations".
I have my own answers to that objection, but I am interested in hearing what other members on this forum would answer back.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Who do these Likud clowns think they are?   

So this Likud minister, probably not even shomer shabbos, yet he claims to understand and "teach" us Torah by lecturing that we must be a light to nations and therefore calling self-protection immoral?  According to what system of morality exactly?   And why if he's not religious, does he make this a religious principle?

It would be a Light onto the Nations if we should be a shining example by slamming arab terrorists with the iron fist.   There is no contradiction between wiping out evil and being a light to the nations - in fact they go hand in hand.

[muman613]

The most obvious answer would be to bring the Gemara concerning self defense and also the command to remove the evil from our midst. These principles themselves are the 'light onto the nations' which the Torah eschews. The Torah never, ever intended Jews to be abused and oppressed by the nations. Because of the exile we have become complacent with the raw treatment we have received. But any Torah scholar worth his merit knows that the righteous have an obligation to imposed justice, which means eradicating the enemies of the people (demonstrated by the command to obliterate Amalek) and imposing penalties for violating the commandments.

The current state of the Jewish people is far from the goal. We hope to be able to show Jewish people the light of Torah so that they want to keep the commandments, and ensure justice and righteousness in the world.

[muman613]

Chabads site explains this somewhat here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3220/jewish/The-Jews-Double-Standard.htm

.
.
.
In light of the above, it is surprising to find the following law in the Torah (derived from Deuteronomy 22:26): Habah l'hargecha hashkem l'hargo -- "If someone is coming to kill you, rise against him and kill him first." (This law applies equally to someone coming to kill someone else -- you're obligated to kill the murderer in order to save his intended victim.)

This law seems to contradict the principle of life's infinite value. If no life can be deemed less valuable that any other, what makes the victim's life more valuable than the murderer's life? Furthermore, this rule applies to anyone who is "coming to kill you" -- he hasn't even done anything yet! Maybe he won't succeed? Maybe he'll change his mind? Nor does the law say anything about trying to run away. It says: If someone is coming to kill you, rise against him and kill him first.

The same Torah that tells us that G-d placed a spark of Himself in every human being, thereby bestowing upon his or her physical existence a G-dly, infinite worth -- that same Torah also tells us that G-d has granted free choice to every person. Including the choice -- and the power -- to corrupt his or her G-d-given vitality and turn it against itself, using it to destroy life. A person can choose to turn himself into a murderer -- someone who is prepared to destroy life in order to achieve his aims. In which case he is no longer a life, but an anti-life.

To kill an anti-life is not a life-destroying act, it is a life-preserving act. It is not a violation of the commandment "Do not kill," but its affirmation. Without the law, "If someone is coming to kill you, rise against him and kill him first," the principle of life's infinite value is nothing more than an empty slogan, a mere idea.

Judaism is not an idea. It is a way of life -- G-d's ideas made real.

[muman613]

Ohr Samayach discusses these examples:

http://ohr.edu/3768

Ideally, a Jew would rather have peace than war. However, not only history, but also the Torah, teaches us that a Jew has to be willing and able to fight - and win. Here are several examples:

1. Abraham’s nephew, Lot, was taken captive in a war between four powerful armies against five where the former prevailed (Gen. 14:13-16). Abraham gathered relatively few men in pursuit of such a strong army in order to free his kin from captivity. Against the odds, he fiercely and courageously felled the fleeing army and saved not only Lot, but all of the others who had been taken captive by the oppressors as well.

2. After the Jews escaped enslavement and persecution in Egypt, they were attacked, unprovoked, by the nation of Amalek (Ex. 17:8-13). Moses ordered Joshua to choose people for battle, which he did until “Joshua weakened Amalek and its people with the blade of the sword”.

3. There is even a precedent for a pre-emptive strike. The Talmud teaches, “If someone comes to kill you, arise [preempt him] and kill him first” (Sanhedrin 72a). The Shulchan Aruch affirms this Talmudic principle by ruling: “If one sees that someone is pursuing him with the intention to kill him, he is permitted to defend himself and take the life of he who is pursuing him” (Choshen Mishpat 125:1).

4. The Talmud (Eruvin 45a) discusses whether the residents of a city in Israel who come under siege on Shabbat are permitted to violate Shabbat and take up arms in order to defend themselves. The Talmud rules that if the siege is launched with the clear intention of killing the city’s residents, they must violate Shabbat in taking up arms to defend themselves. Maimonides (Laws of Shabbat 3:23) expands this ruling by stating: “It is a mitzvah for all Jews who are able to come and help defend their brethren to do so, and it is forbidden to delay their coming until after Shabbat.”

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Look at Dov Lipman from Ein Atid 

 (I cant comment on his page because he blocked me, but this is sad and stupid as usual from him).



 (someone asked)
So are you going to vote against Israel being a Jewish state too? Why do we live here again? http://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-livni-resolved-to-fight-jewish-state-bill

Dov Lipman-
 I wont vote for a law which makes non-Jews in Israel a lower class - especially not at a tense time like we are currently in. We live here to live with Jewish values which includes that all people are created in God's image.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Look at Dov Lipman from Ein Atid 

 (I cant comment on his page because he blocked me, but this is sad and stupid as usual from him).



 (someone asked)
So are you going to vote against Israel being a Jewish state too? Why do we live here again? http://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-livni-resolved-to-fight-jewish-state-bill

Dov Lipman-
 I wont vote for a law which makes non-Jews in Israel a lower class - especially not at a tense time like we are currently in. We live here to live with Jewish values which includes that all people are created in God's image.

Foolish stupidity.   I have long surmised that Lipman's function is to provide haredi veneer to the politics of Lapid.  That is his role in the party, and he is playing that role beecause he personally identifies with the very strongly leftist politics of Lapid.  But he will never openly say it.  Instead he just tries to cherry pick some kind of religious justification for every stance.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Foolish stupidity.   I have long surmised that Lipman's function is to provide haredi veneer to the politics of Lapid.  That is his role in the party, and he is playing that role beecause he personally identifies with the very strongly leftist politics of Lapid.  But he will never openly say it.  Instead he just tries to cherry pick some kind of religious justification for every stance.

 He is a leftist for sure. His agenda and voting is leftist. He's an idiot and takes orders from lapig.