Author Topic: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials  (Read 43116 times)

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Offline dawntreader

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #100 on: August 19, 2007, 12:09:16 AM »
This is ridiculous. The prohibition against starting a fire was because in those days starting a fire actually was WORK. It was hard to start a fire...you had to gather wood, chop it up, then go about the business of getting it lit.

Turning on your computer screen? Please.

Besides...what if you leave your computer on ALL the time? If you did, then you technically started the "fire" the day before Shabbat.
Victory is a thing of the will. -General Ferdinand Foch

Our peace must be a peace of victors, not of the vanquished.
- General Ferdinand Foch

We have met the enemy and they are ours.
- Oliver Hazard Perry

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #101 on: August 19, 2007, 12:09:45 AM »
Ah, but I am not breaking Shabbat.

When typing, one is not "writing". Nowhere have I physically written two letters on Shabbat.

This is why it is also permissable to erase G-d's name when typing on the computer. Because every letter you type is created and destroyed thousands of times a second.

Newman, you're being just a touch insulting here. Nowhere am I claiming that a Jew should not keep Shabbat. I am saying that the rules the Orthodox SAY are correct...are not necessarily truly correct. Nowhere did I say that I eat bacon (I don't), I have never kissed a Cross. My goodness. (What, I should go and kiss an instrument of death, something like an electric chair too?)

Also, I am not working on Shabbat. Watching Television is not breaking Shabbat. What kind of craziness is this?

Tzvi, you are being a touch over-zealous here. If, G-d forbid I am really breaking the Shabbat then maybe He will show me. I am open to hearing truth. I'm open to listening and researching for myself.

But no one, and nothing shall convince me that I am just because someone points in horror and says so. Prove it to me and I will repent. Otherwise? It's just a lot of hoopla.


P.S.

Tzvi, I will listen to both lectures you presented and let you know what I think.

their are 39 melahot, writing is part of one of them. creating fire is another. Using the computer and pressing the buttons of the t.v. is in the category of creating fire. (their are many explenations of why and how). Technically you can watch t.v. if you dont press the buttons, but its forbidded becuase a- you might come to press the button and b- other people would think you are breaking Shabb-t (which isnt allowed because they might come to break it and you cant let someone think you are doing something wronge.)
- G-d will only show you as far as you are willing to investigate his laws. You cant say - one day G-d will show me the right path or how to do this or that without properly trying to learn what you have to do.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #102 on: August 19, 2007, 12:12:22 AM »
do you live in Queens? if yes their are lectures and places where you can go and ask a Rabbi and discuss all of your questions.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #103 on: August 19, 2007, 12:15:07 AM »
This is ridiculous. The prohibition against starting a fire was because in those days starting a fire actually was WORK. It was hard to start a fire...you had to gather wood, chop it up, then go about the business of getting it lit.

Turning on your computer screen? Please.

Besides...what if you leave your computer on ALL the time? If you did, then you technically started the "fire" the day before Shabbat.

The Torah is eternal and applies for every generation as it says so in the Bible.  The Prohibition of starting a fire on Sabbath applies for all times, not just for a short period of time a few thousand years ago.  Technically, when you use the computer even if it is left on, you are still starting a fire based on the way mdoern computers work, in that the more  CPU usage you use, the faster the CPU fan is running, plus the network card has indicator lights on it and when you use the network, you are causing the lights to blink on and off.  Plus, the Rabbis prohibited doing things that are not normally used on Sabbath since they could easily lead to violating the Sabbath.  Let alone the purpose of the Sabbath is to rest from your daily activities and work you do during the week and dedicate a day to serving G-d.  If you watch TV on Sabbath, even if you are technically not violating it by leaving the TV on the whole time, it disrupts the whole purpose of the Sabbath. 
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline dawntreader

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #104 on: August 19, 2007, 12:16:37 AM »
LOL

Tzvi,

No. I live in Texas.

Also, I cannot agree with notions about the television or the computer. Sorry. I do not light actual fires. It's the Orthodox Rabbis who are so afraid of offending HaShem that they make up ridiculous rules that have nothing to do REALLY with the original prohibition.

It's like eating cheese with meat.

All the Bible has to say is: Don't cook the kid in its mothers milk.

From this we get "Don't eat a cheeseburger."????

As I said before...I don't accept the Torah She'Baal Peh. So....

I also don't accept rulings of Rabbis by and large...especially Orthodox ones.

By the way Tzvi, your comment about learning "Real Torah Judaism" implies that the other streams of Judaism are not legitimate, and that only Orthodox Judaism is correct. A touch arrogant don't you think?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 12:20:45 AM by dawntreader »
Victory is a thing of the will. -General Ferdinand Foch

Our peace must be a peace of victors, not of the vanquished.
- General Ferdinand Foch

We have met the enemy and they are ours.
- Oliver Hazard Perry

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #105 on: August 19, 2007, 12:19:44 AM »
Chemically speaking there is nothing different than taking out a match and lighting a fire, and turning on a light bulb (or cathode ray TV in our case).  They both reach extremely hot temperatures at there core and can set off flammable materials.  In fact, the light bulb's tungsten filament reaches a much hotter temperature then a candle does.  This is science, not Rabbis making things up.   

Technically if you take a Kosher burger that is not hot enough to cook things on and eat it together with cheese, you are not violating a Biblical prohibition, but a Rabbinic one.  So if this is the worse thing you do, you are only violating a Rabbinic prohibition. 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 12:21:34 AM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #106 on: August 19, 2007, 12:22:53 AM »
listin to the lecture Divineinformation (all the parts) from Divineinformation.com, it shows how both the Oral and Written Torah can only be Divine. You laugh now but I guarantee you, you wont be laughing when you find the truth either in this world ( if you are smart and lucky) or G-d forbid in the next when it is too late.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline dawntreader

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #107 on: August 19, 2007, 12:23:32 AM »
Wow...set off a firestorm here cause I can't agree with you gentlemen. My apologies.

I think I will let this be my last post on this subject since you won't be convincing me any time soon.

I agree with the broad goals of Kahanism...and a Greater Land of Israel.

And once again...I don't think I'll be burning in hell if I don't accept the Torah She'Baal Peh.

No one here has given ANY kind of satisfactory answer for the following questions:

   1.  If the law as it is in the Mishnah was intended to be oral, then how would it be permissible to be written?
   2. Why does the Mishnah quote many different opinions if it all came from one source?
   3. Shouldn't the truth of the oral law given to Moses only be in one opinion? Not many opinions?
   4. Why doesn't the Mishnah speak solely in the name of Moshe?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 12:29:16 AM by dawntreader »
Victory is a thing of the will. -General Ferdinand Foch

Our peace must be a peace of victors, not of the vanquished.
- General Ferdinand Foch

We have met the enemy and they are ours.
- Oliver Hazard Perry

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2007, 12:35:50 AM »
You have asked a very good question since most Jews, including most Orthodox ones do not fully understand the concept of the Oral law.  Lucky for you, there is someone here who fully understands it after many years of study. 

The first question is where did the concept of the Oral Law originate from and what is the lesson of the oral law with respect to Judaism?


The origins of the Oral Law in fact predate the exodus and the Bible.  In the early days of man, G-d transmitted information through prophesy and that was handed down orally from mouth to mouth from father to son.  For example, G-d transmitted the Seven laws of Noah to Noah and Noah transmitted it by mouth to whoever would listen and to his sons.  In fact, our forefather Jacob studied information about G-d from Noah's sons Shem and Ever.  Even before the Bible, righteous men such as Noah and his sons, plus Abraham, Yitzchak and Jacob would think about G-d through studying discover new things about him.  Abraham compiled the first piece of the Oral Law specific for Judaism since G-d loved Abraham and gave him incredible prophesy, this prophesy combined with his incredible mind discovered much information about G-d and knew concepts mentioned in the Bible before they were given.  Even though the forefathers did not know the entire Bible, the were aware of some information contained in it through their insight.  For example, the Bible says his son Joshuah married his second son to the wife of his first son after the first son died childless to bring seed to the one that died.  This is called Yibum and Moses states this commandment later on in the Bible.  There is also a commandment that if the daughter of a priest is a harlet she must be burnt.  Compare this to Joshuah bringing out Tamar to be burnt for being a harlot.  According to tradition, much more information was known by Abraham but much of it wasn't stated in the Bible.   Abraham passed this information through his sons,  Yitzchak uncovered even more information and passed in down to Jacob and on and on.    From what I just told you it is now clear what the benefit of having the Oral law is, that it emphasizes a strong bond between parent and child, since the child must accept the Oral tradition from their parent from generation to generation or it ceases to exist.  The oral transmission from father to son is emphasized in the Bible as being the key to Judaism, that one must honor their parents and "ask your father and he will tell you, your elder and he will tell you".   Similarly "and your son will say "what's this?", and you will say to your son "with a strong hand the L-rd took us out of bondage..."    Without honoring your parents and accepting their oral tradition, Judaism will cease to exist.

The second question is what is the oral law and why do we need an oral law

The Oral Law has two parts. 
1)  The belief that Moses explained the written Torah Orally to Israel, and that this information was passed down from generation to generation.  This is the first part of the Oral Law, what Moses passed down.
2)  The second part is the beauty of the Oral Law, and what is not known to most Jews.  Jews believe that the Torah is infinite, since it is divine and an infinite amount of information is contained in it.  It is therefore impossible to uncover all information about the Torah.  Even if Moses knew all this information, it would take hundreds of thousands of years to record everything which would be impossible.  Therefore, what G-d told Moses to write down he wrote down.  So how do we go about giving an incomplete Torah to Israel?  Moses himself made a brief summary of the Oral law that he understood and told this to Israel the most necessary information that it should easily be remembered.  From the Written Law and Moses Oral Law, it is possible to uncover more information, and to expand the Oral Law in future generations.  In every generation, there are thousands people who uncover new concepts in the Torah and expand the Oral Law, some more than others.  And when this information is added to the previous Oral Law, even more information can be derived from it, so the Oral Law is an exponential function that expands at an exponential rate and as time progresses more is uncovered.  As more is uncovered, arguments and differences of opinion arise as well.  Much of the Talmud contains these expanded discoveries, and tries to use logic to prove which opinion is correct.    The Oral law did not end with the Talmud, it continues to progress even today and simple people like me and you can uncover new concepts in the Torah and expand the Oral Law. 

1.  If the law as it is in the Mishnah was intended to be oral, then how would it be permissible to be written?
   2. Why does the Mishnah quote many different opinions if it all came from one source?
   3. Shouldn't the truth of the oral law given to Moses only be in one opinion? Not many opinions?
   4. Why doesn't the Mishnah speak solely in the name of Moshe?


1.  Since the days of old, one of the purposes of the Oral Law was to maintain the necessary bond between parent and child so that the oral tradition is passed from father to son.  If  the law was written down, then this bond would not be necessary, and this father to son tradition which is the primary component of Judaism will be mocked and every idiot and nation would make up their own version of the Torah and not heed to the traditions of their fathers, as is happening today.  Therefore, it is forbidden to write down the Oral Law and the Oral Law was sung and memorized by all Jews.  Also, if the Oral Law is written, Jews would not respect new Torah concepts that are discovered later on and are told Orally, such as is happening today and Jews would not put effort into expanding the Oral Law.  However, the Oral Law expanded to such an extent and the greatness of the generations was declining that the Great Rabbis saw that the Oral Law began to be forgotten.  Rather than have this precious  Torah be forgotten they violated this prohibition on writing down the Oral Law, and as Tzivi says they found a verse in Psalms that they interpuited as allowing this in this time of need. 

2,3,4.  You are exaggerating the arguments in the Mishna.  Usually (90% of the time or more) the Mishnah states a concept that is agreed by all Rabbis, and is the direct Oral Law transmitted through Moses.  Even though the Mishna does not say explicitly that Moses said this in every paragraph, that is to not act repetitive as it does say this in the first verses of Mishna Avot that Moses transmitted the Oral Law to Moses who transmitted it to Joshuah who transmitted it to the elders.... and goes down the entire line and then quotes things stated by the person in the last line.  Then it says that that Rabbi's student accepted the tradition and he says the following etc.  So whenever the Mishna says something that is not argued on, it is directly stated by Moses.  Basically, most verses in the Mishna start off with a general concept not argued with, this is the Oral Law of Moses. Arguments arise from three sides.  1)  As the Oral Law is transmitted generation to generation, sometimes information is forgotten or unintentionally misquoted and an argument develops as to what is the correct transmission.  This is the rarest form of argument, since in the Mishna that I read so far, 90% of the time, crucial information is agreed upon and argument arises only in the fine detals.  2)  As the Oral Law is expanded, Rabbis make up a entirely new conceptual case not thought of before and differ how to apply the Torah to this specific case.  3)  As the Oral Law is expanded, several Rabbis come up with different conclusions based on the previous Oral Law and Written Law such as specifics for Mosaic concepts such as what is considered carrying on Sabbath and similar things of this nature.  Most arguments in the Mishna are of this type, where everyone agrees on the general concepts and argue on the specifics.   Another Chunk of the Mishna deals with Rabbinical decrees which Rabbis made later on to guard the Biblical Prohibitions from being violated, and some times they argue on the extend of these prohibitions so don't confuse these with arguments on the Oral Law.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 01:44:49 AM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #109 on: August 19, 2007, 12:38:11 AM »
Wow...set off a firestorm here cause I can't agree with you gentlemen. My apologies.

I think I will let this be my last post on this subject since you won't be convincing me any time soon.

I agree with the broad goals of Kahanism...and a Greater Land of Israel.

And once again...I don't think I'll be burning in hell if I don't accept the Torah She'Baal Peh.

No one here has given ANY kind of satisfactory answer for the following questions:

   1.  If the law as it is in the Mishnah was intended to be oral, then how would it be permissible to be written?
   2. Why does the Mishnah quote many different opinions if it all came from one source?
   3. Shouldn't the truth of the oral law given to Moses only be in one opinion? Not many opinions?
   4. Why doesn't the Mishnah speak solely in the name of Moshe?

1- The Sanhedrin derived from a verse in Psalms - basically meaning that in order to preserve the Law it is necessary to sometimes break it. It had to be written at that time since the Jews were forgetting a lot of the oral tradition. (because of persecutions and the galut, etc.)
2- sometimes because they are talking about 2 different situations in applying that law, and also because some details were forgotten.

When I have time I will rewrite whats written in this book I have- it is the Letter Of Sherira Gaon (986 C.E.)
 also check Rav Saadiya Gaon in his refutation to the karaites.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 01:15:12 AM by Tzvi Ben Roshel »
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #110 on: August 19, 2007, 01:16:11 AM »

     Rav Mizrachi:  Proof That Torah is Divine - Part I   and II
  http://www.kolyakov.org/rav_mizrachi_11-27-06.html

http://www.kolyakov.org/rav_mizrachi_12-4-06.html

Another 2 great lectures.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline DownwithIslam

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2007, 01:29:04 AM »
While I agree that according to Judaism breaking shabbos is bad, their is no way it is considered worse than murder. You cannot repent for murdering someone.
I am urinating on a Koran.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #112 on: August 19, 2007, 01:56:46 PM »


By the way Tzvi, your comment about learning "Real Torah Judaism" implies that the other streams of Judaism are not legitimate, and that only Orthodox Judaism is correct. A touch arrogant don't you think?

Yes, the other so called streams are all man made. They are from the eruv rav, and no it isnt being arrogant, at situations like these one needs to tell the truth and even crush the opponents if possible.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline DownwithIslam

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #113 on: August 19, 2007, 02:03:12 PM »
I happen to agree with tzvi here. The other forms of judaism are not real and they are drek. For instance, lets say you violate jewish laws but you know that according to judaism they are forbidden, their is hope that you will come to your senses and repent. The reformed and conservative jews change the laws of the torah as they see fit. What they are practicing is nothing near judaism. They have simply made up their own religion which is not judaism. Someone who violates the laws of judaism can one day repent while the others just made up their own religion.
I am urinating on a Koran.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #114 on: August 19, 2007, 02:08:32 PM »
You know, I have a problem with saying Jews need to keep more laws in order to be saved than Gentiles (Noahides) do. It doesn't seem logical for me that there is one track to heaven for one group of people and another for the other.

I know Chaim and the rest of JTF will offer me explanations as to why this is, but I don't see how it can be reconciled myself. Either the 613 are mandatory for all of humanity or they are not mandatory. I simply cannot see another coherent system.

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #115 on: August 19, 2007, 02:11:30 PM »
You know, I have a problem with saying Jews need to keep more laws in order to be saved than Gentiles (Noahides) do. It doesn't seem logical for me that there is one track to heaven for one group of people and another for the other.

I know Chaim and the rest of JTF will offer me explanations as to why this is, but I don't see how it can be reconciled myself. Either the 613 are mandatory for all of humanity or they are not mandatory. I simply cannot see another coherent system.

It's perfectly logical. As a catholic priest has different rules to a catholic lay person.......the 'Nation of Priests' (Jews) have different rules to the layety (gentiles). What's so hard to understand?

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #116 on: August 19, 2007, 02:16:34 PM »
A Catholic priest chooses to become a priest, he isn't born into it, and the rules have to do with doing your job, not whether you go to heaven or hell.

Like I have said before, it's not anything that anybody will be able to explain to me. I don't see how G-d could have a different system for people because of their birth.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #117 on: August 19, 2007, 02:18:23 PM »
even within the Jews everyone has their own route and uniqueness. Yisrael is one level, the Leviim and then Kohanim (priests), also about prayer each tribe had their own gate to prayer.
 Maybe you are right in that when the opportunity came all the nations had a chance of accepting the Torah, but the other nations didnt want it, only Israel said Naase Venishma (we will do and we will listin). Individuals of the other nations wanted to accept it, but the majority of their nation didnt (they later converted, usually threw gilgul- reincarnation and converted).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #118 on: August 19, 2007, 02:21:35 PM »
When I read the Tanach (Tanach), I haven't seen where it applies just to Jews. In fact, I recall reading that salvation is for the Jews, meaning that only people who converted and joined the Israelites got to heaven. Ruth is a good example.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #119 on: August 19, 2007, 02:23:50 PM »
A Catholic priest chooses to become a priest, he isn't born into it, and the rules have to do with doing your job, not whether you go to heaven or hell.

Like I have said before, it's not anything that anybody will be able to explain to me. I don't see how G-d could have a different system for people because of their birth.

was it your choice to be born? it also wont be your choice to die (most likley). What mission G-d gives an individual is the mission he has to accomplish. If you want to say it isnt fair then why shouldnt a cow or a donkey also complain saying it isnt fair that it isnt a human? You wont understand G-d's ways with simple logic.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #120 on: August 19, 2007, 02:27:00 PM »
When I read the Tanach (Tanach), I haven't seen where it applies just to Jews. In fact, I recall reading that salvation is for the Jews, meaning that only people who converted and joined the Israelites got to heaven. Ruth is a good example.

Noah?, Hanuch (taken to heaven without dieng). Also Misrashim talking about even Ismaelites in heaven.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #121 on: August 19, 2007, 02:43:09 PM »
Also their are different levels of heaven. Jews are usually judged more and stricter, but have a greater chance being in a higher level in the next world.  Everything is about what you do, the more you do the greater you get. Its even said that if one friend sees his friend in the next world and that friend did 1 mitzva more than his friend he will be in a much much higher level.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline dawntreader

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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #122 on: August 19, 2007, 04:53:35 PM »
Quote
Yes, the other so called streams are all man made. They are from the eruv rav, and no it isnt being arrogant, at situations like these one needs to tell the truth and even crush the opponents if possible.

Oh my gosh. Talk about self-righteousness going on.

The Reform and Conservative movements are from the Eruv Rav? (Another concept which is strikingly like the "boogey man".) The multitudes that went out from Egypt along with the Israelites intermarried with the Israelites and BECAME Israelites and Jews.

There was no "keeping the bloodline pure." Give me a break.

And as for being man-made...the explanation given about the Torah She'Baal Peh certainly sounded like much of it "expanded upon etc. by each generation" sounds pretty man-made to me.

There are plenty of rules and ideas from the Kosher laws given by HaShem vs. those "expanded upon" by the rabbis, to the drek in the Kabbalah that are pretty man-made. The idea that we are "re-incarnated" is pure drek and is not from the Torah She'Bichsav. If the Torah She'Baal Peh doesn't agree with the written Torah...then one or the other is not correct. I choose to believe what I've read in the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings...but re-incarnation? That's Judaism?

More like...Zoroastrianism...and stuff from religions that Avraham Avinu left behind when HaShem called him.
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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #123 on: August 19, 2007, 05:37:12 PM »
The Kabbalah of the Zohar is controversial and isn't accepted by all Orthodox people ever since it came out several hundred years ago and there was a big debate among the rationalists vs. the Kabbalists, reincarnation is one of these things that is controversial.  Many things you say are said mainly out of ignorance.  It is obvious in the written Torah that an Oral Law was also given.  For example, how do you explain when it says "make Tzizzit on the corners of your garments" and "tie them for a sign on your hands and for a symbol between your eyes", the written Torah doesn't explain what Tefillin and Tzizit actually are.  Only the Oral Law explains these things, and there are several other examples.  The Oral Law never contradicts the written Law, it supplements it and explains the written Law, and is a very beautiful thing.  It is the foundation of Judaism which is the transmission of Torah from generation to generation from parent to child and is why Judaism still exists for over 3000 years.   The Talmud always and must gives sources in the written Torah for every statement of the Rabbis and if any statement would ever contradict what is stated in the written Torah then it is rejected.  The reform and conservative don't understand this chain of tradition that made Judaism what it was since the days of our forefathers and it is why their grandchildren marry non Jews,why the majority of conservative synagagues can't even get 10 people together on Sabbath and they are all closing and dying out.  Soon there will be no more reform or conservative Jews left, since they are all disappearing.  That's what happens when you make a mockery out of the Torah and make up your own religion. 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 05:55:48 PM by jdl4ever »
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Re: 18 yr old Israeli girl made sex slave For P.A. officials
« Reply #124 on: August 19, 2007, 07:14:10 PM »
Also their are different levels of heaven. Jews are usually judged more and stricter, but have a greater chance being in a higher level in the next world.  Everything is about what you do, the more you do the greater you get. Its even said that if one friend sees his friend in the next world and that friend did 1 mitzva more than his friend he will be in a much much higher level.
Can I ask where this idea of multiple levels of heaven appears in the tanakh?