Polygamy.

[chakma613]

Chakma, the parents of these students were already kosher.  But the Yeshiva told the students that their parents homes were not kosher enough for them. 

Just how did they define Kosher? If they did not immerse their utensils as the shulcan aruch says to do, they were not being kosher, even if they were using kosher food. Now, if it was an issue of something open to discussion, such as cholov yisroel in america(which there is a lot of controversy over), then I can understand your anger at the yeshiva.

[chakma613]

Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.

No, non-religious jews are human beings and  we have a responsibility to show them ahavas yisroel, however we do not have to respect their ideas when they are starkly opposed to Torah.

[jdl4ever]

Chakma613, the Das Torah thing that I'm referring to is the excuse ignorent fake Rabbis use when they are wrong and don't have any valid Torah argument to give you so they say "I have Daas Torah so I am right" and expect you to accept their point of view simply because they claim to have Dass Torah.  Real Jews and real Rabbis will answer your questions/concerns/arguments with Torah arguments citing Torah sources to prove that they are correct.  Secondly, the basis of Judaism is the transmission of Torah from generation to generation. Many of the Yeshivas including the one I went to do not respect the basis of Judaism and sever this link.  They simply tell you that they know the right path and your parents are not as educated as them so you should follow what they say and ignore your parents, their advice and their customs.  I'm not talking about where your parents are not religious, I'm talking about people such as myself that come from a fine line of religious Jews.  If you think I'm crazy for saying these people will burn in hell for ruining our religion, then good for you.  I have met 2 people from my school who were Baal Teshuvas who came there fully observant to learn more about Judaism and who came out completely not religious, eating at Mcdonalds or on the verge of being athiests.  Plus my own relative went to one of these brainwashing places and won't eat at my grandmother's house who is a Chassidish fully Orthodox woman from a line of such people, who is even from Europe, since she isn't Kosher enough for him for not filtering the water.  Call me crazy, but there is a major problem.  R' Kahane was someone who was a REAL Rabbi, who backed up everything he said with Torah, and never used the pathetic Daas Torah excuse or the "Gedolim know better even if we don't understand them" cop out.

[chakma613]

Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.

destroyed? just how is learning torah in a respected yeshiva being destroyed?

[DownwithIslam]

Chakma613, the Das Torah thing that I'm referring to is the excuse ignorent fake Rabbis use when they are wrong and don't have any valid Torah argument to give you so they say "I have Daas Torah so I am right" and expect you to accept their point of view simply because they claim to have Dass Torah.  Real Jews and real Rabbis will answer your questions/concerns/arguments with Torah arguments citing Torah sources to prove that they are correct.  Secondly, the basis of Judaism is the transmission of Torah from generation to generation. Many of the Yeshivas including the one I went to do not respect the basis of Judaism and sever this link.  They simply tell you that they know the right path and your parents are not as educated as them so you should follow what they say and ignore your parents, their advice and their customs.  I'm not talking about where your parents are not religious, I'm talking about people such as myself that come from a fine line of religious Jews.  If you think I'm crazy for saying these people will burn in hell for ruining our religion, then good for you.  I have met 2 people from my school who were Baal Teshuvas who came there fully observant to learn more about Judaism and who came out completely not religious, eating at Mcdonalds or on the verge of being athiests.  Plus my own relative went to one of these brainwashing places and won't eat at my grandmother's house who is a Chassidish fully Orthodox woman from a line of such people, who is even from Europe, since she isn't Kosher enough for him for not filtering the water.  Call me crazy, but there is a major problem.  R' Kahane was someone who was a REAL Rabbi, who backed up everything he said with Torah, and never used the pathetic Daas Torah excuse or the "Gedolim know better even if we don't understand them" cop out.

I personally know of a wealthy viznitzer chassid who will not eat from the ou or certain other hashgachas because they are not good enough, he also only eats cholov yisroel. He was recently busted trying to pick up a prostitute. What a chilul hashem.

[DownwithIslam]

Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.

destroyed? just how is learning torah in a respected yeshiva being destroyed?

If the yeshiva brainwashes you into self loathing extremism and teaches you to be a selfish piece of drek than it is destroying you.

[chakma613]

Chakma613, the Das Torah thing that I'm referring to is the excuse ignorent fake Rabbis use when they are wrong and don't have any valid Torah argument to give you so they say "I have Daas Torah so I am right" and expect you to accept their point of view simply because they claim to have Dass Torah.  Real Jews and real Rabbis will answer your questions/concerns/arguments with Torah arguments citing Torah sources to prove that they are correct.  Secondly, the basis of Judaism is the transmission of Torah from generation to generation. Many of the Yeshivas including the one I went to do not respect the basis of Judaism and sever this link.  They simply tell you that they know the right path and your parents are not as educated as them so you should follow what they say and ignore your parents, their advice and their customs.  I'm not talking about where your parents are not religious, I'm talking about people such as myself that come from a fine line of religious Jews.  If you think I'm crazy for saying these people will burn in hell for ruining our religion, then good for you.  I have met 2 people from my school who were Baal Teshuvas who came there fully observant to learn more about Judaism and who came out completely not religious, eating at Mcdonalds or on the verge of being athiests.  Plus my own relative went to one of these brainwashing places and won't eat at my grandmother's house who is a Chassidish fully Orthodox woman from a line of such people, who is even from Europe, since she isn't Kosher enough for him for not filtering the water.  Call me crazy, but there is a major problem.  R' Kahane was someone who was a REAL Rabbi, who backed up everything he said with Torah, and never used the pathetic Daas Torah excuse or the "Gedolim know better even if we don't understand them" cop out.

Regarding the bugs in the new york water supply, I don't know of any authority who contests it, if there is a posek who says differently, I'd be interested to know why. not filtering the water makes the food made with it trief(unless it's mevateled by something 60x its volume, just to clarify). I dont like the standard argument used for daas torah either, but i do think that rabbis possess it, however they should explain themselves if they are prompted.

Rabbis never, to my knowledge, PASKEN based on daas torah, they do however base their ideas on the hashkofic level on said daas torah, which is fine with me. Halacha is a link from generation to generation as you said, but I know of no issues to which a posek paskened based on daas torah.

[chakma613]

Chakma613, the Das Torah thing that I'm referring to is the excuse ignorent fake Rabbis use when they are wrong and don't have any valid Torah argument to give you so they say "I have Daas Torah so I am right" and expect you to accept their point of view simply because they claim to have Dass Torah.  Real Jews and real Rabbis will answer your questions/concerns/arguments with Torah arguments citing Torah sources to prove that they are correct.  Secondly, the basis of Judaism is the transmission of Torah from generation to generation. Many of the Yeshivas including the one I went to do not respect the basis of Judaism and sever this link.  They simply tell you that they know the right path and your parents are not as educated as them so you should follow what they say and ignore your parents, their advice and their customs.  I'm not talking about where your parents are not religious, I'm talking about people such as myself that come from a fine line of religious Jews.  If you think I'm crazy for saying these people will burn in hell for ruining our religion, then good for you.  I have met 2 people from my school who were Baal Teshuvas who came there fully observant to learn more about Judaism and who came out completely not religious, eating at Mcdonalds or on the verge of being athiests.  Plus my own relative went to one of these brainwashing places and won't eat at my grandmother's house who is a Chassidish fully Orthodox woman from a line of such people, who is even from Europe, since she isn't Kosher enough for him for not filtering the water.  Call me crazy, but there is a major problem.  R' Kahane was someone who was a REAL Rabbi, who backed up everything he said with Torah, and never used the pathetic Daas Torah excuse or the "Gedolim know better even if we don't understand them" cop out.

I personally know of a wealthy viznitzer chassid who will not eat from the ou or certain other hashgachas because they are not good enough, he also only eats cholov yisroel. He was recently busted trying to pick up a prostitute. What a chilul hashem.

then he is not a chassid

[chakma613]

Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.

destroyed? just how is learning torah in a respected yeshiva being destroyed?

If the yeshiva brainwashes you into self loathing extremism and teaches you to be a selfish piece of drek than it is destroying you.

self-loathing extremism? what are you talking about? I think you are projectig your bad experience on multiple yeshivos

[DownwithIslam]

Chakma this crap about the water being infested with bugs is BS. This is just another money making scheme by various rabbis in business with filter companies. Why was the water good enough for great Rabbis Like moshe Feinstein? Why do a few prostitute patronizing rabbis start a big uproar about bugs in the water?

[DownwithIslam]

Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.

destroyed? just how is learning torah in a respected yeshiva being destroyed?

If the yeshiva brainwashes you into self loathing extremism and teaches you to be a selfish piece of drek than it is destroying you.

self-loathing extremism? what are you talking about? I think you are projectig your bad experience on multiple yeshivos

Chakma, the fact that many of the large white shirt yeshivas such as lakewood are anti zionist speaks for itself.

[jdl4ever]

I gavce you a torah argument for why we need to folow our rebbeim - iq uoted the Talmud i saying that if a rebbe says to his student to think that eft is rigth and right is left he must follow him,

There is no proof from there.  If you accept upon yourself a teacher who is a real teacher as they were at the Talmudic time period; meaning one who always backs up his statements with Torah upon questioning and proves himself to be correct time and time again; and he tells you something w/o an explanation that appears to you as being incorrect, since he has a Chazaka of being correct before, you must accept what he says as the truth.  But you are permitted to question him at your first opportunity and have him either prove himself correct or admit that he was wrong, as R' Meir Kahane says and I have brought you the Torah proof that he brings to support his position.

I also quoted the principle of mitzvah leshmoa ledivrei chachomim, and to add to that list, it says in pirkei avos "asai lekha rav", accept upon yourself a teacher. These are my arguments - I'd appreciate an answer.

Accepting a teacher upon yourself does not have anything to do with this argument.  You must accept a teacher that you trust and follow him.  If you accept a teacher and he acts like many of these fanatical teachers, saying things against the Torah and not answering your objections then you may reject them as a teacher.  Also Mitzvah Leshmoa Ledivrei chachomim refers to Chachamim who are real Chachamim, not learned Rabbis who make obvious mistakes that are rejected by the Rabbis of previous generations.

[DownwithIslam]

JDL4EVER, why do you believe yeshivas  such as lakewood and Torah vodath are so anti zionist?

[jdl4ever]

JDL4EVER, why do you believe yeshivas  such as lakewood and Torah vodath are so anti zionist?

Because they are crazy fanatics.  Chachma613 says

not filtering the water makes the food made with it trief

and with this nonsense being taught, you understand why they are so crazy.  Chachma, I don't filter my water and neither did R' Moshe Feinstein, your grandparents or the Rambam for that matter.  Are we all drinking non Kosher water?  Really, I want to know if you think the Rambam drank non Kosher water. 

[Lisa]

Just how did they define Kosher? If they did not immerse their utensils as the shulcan aruch says to do, they were not being kosher, even if they were using kosher food. Now, if it was an issue of something open to discussion, such as cholov yisroel in america(which there is a lot of controversy over), then I can understand your anger at the yeshiva.

Chakma613, these people keep kosher homes with two different sets of dishes, go to the Synagogue every every Saturday, observe Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Succot, Passover and other holidays.  So the argument about them not really being kosher is irrelevant. 

[DownwithIslam]

JDL4EVER, why do you believe yeshivas  such as lakewood and Torah vodath are so anti zionist?

Because they are crazy fanatics.  Chachma613 says

not filtering the water makes the food made with it trief

and with this nonsense being taught, you understand why they are so crazy.  Chachma, I don't filter my water and neither did R' Moshe Feinstein, your grandparents or the Rambam for that matter.  Are we all drinking non Kosher water?  Really, I want to know if you think the Rambam drank non Kosher water. 

JDL4EVER, well said. I also doubt Rabbi Kahane or Chaim Ben Pesach filter their water and both of these jews have sacrificed themselves for the jewish cause more that all the rabbis of torah vodath and lakewood combined.

[DownwithIslam]

Yeah Chakma, can you do me a favor and explain to me why great rabbis over the years drank non kosher water? If water was non kosher, I am sure it would of been forbidden years ago like non kosher animals.

[chakma613]

Yeah Chakma, can you do me a favor and explain to me why great rabbis over the years drank non kosher water? If water was non kosher, I am sure it would of been forbidden years ago like non kosher animals.

It just shows how little you know about the issue - it's a recent one, and to answr the Q about rav moshe feinstein, the issue to my knowledge was not a concern then, i think there was sme change in the water supply. also it was only a concern for new york if i remember right

[chakma613]

Chakma this crap about the water being infested with bugs is BS. This is just another money making scheme by various rabbis in business with filter companies. Why was the water good enough for great Rabbis Like moshe Feinstein? Why do a few prostitute patronizing rabbis start a big uproar about bugs in the water?

havei dan es kol ha'adam lechaf zhus...try it sometime

[chakma613]

Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.

destroyed? just how is learning torah in a respected yeshiva being destroyed?

If the yeshiva brainwashes you into self loathing extremism and teaches you to be a selfish piece of drek than it is destroying you.

self-loathing extremism? what are you talking about? I think you are projectig your bad experience on multiple yeshivos

Chakma, the fact that many of the large white shirt yeshivas such as lakewood are anti zionist speaks for itself.

large white shirt yeshiva? so just because they dont wear kippot srugot makes them anti-zionist? i happen to respect anyone who learns torah, there's more to torah learning then just zionism - even kahane didnt only write about zionism. also, they are mostly non-zionist, only a minority that I know of are really against israel

[chakma613]

Just how did they define Kosher? If they did not immerse their utensils as the shulcan aruch says to do, they were not being kosher, even if they were using kosher food. Now, if it was an issue of something open to discussion, such as cholov yisroel in america(which there is a lot of controversy over), then I can understand your anger at the yeshiva.

Chakma613, these people keep kosher homes with two different sets of dishes, go to the Synagogue every every Saturday, observe Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Succot, Passover and other holidays.  So the argument about them not really being kosher is irrelevant. 

going to shul onc a week is not the issue here, besides, we daven 3 times a day, not only on shabbos. the isue was not in one area of observance, as opposed to the possibility of a kashrus problem, i dont know their sutuation, but i now it has little to do whether or not they keep other mitzvos

[chakma613]

I gavce you a torah argument for why we need to folow our rebbeim - iq uoted the Talmud i saying that if a rebbe says to his student to think that eft is rigth and right is left he must follow him,

There is no proof from there.  If you accept upon yourself a teacher who is a real teacher as they were at the Talmudic time period; meaning one who always backs up his statements with Torah upon questioning and proves himself to be correct time and time again; and he tells you something w/o an explanation that appears to you as being incorrect, since he has a Chazaka of being correct before, you must accept what he says as the truth.  But you are permitted to question him at your first opportunity and have him either prove himself correct or admit that he was wrong, as R' Meir Kahane says and I have brought you the Torah proof that he brings to support his position.

I also quoted the principle of mitzvah leshmoa ledivrei chachomim, and to add to that list, it says in pirkei avos "asai lekha rav", accept upon yourself a teacher. These are my arguments - I'd appreciate an answer.

Accepting a teacher upon yourself does not have anything to do with this argument.  You must accept a teacher that you trust and follow him.  If you accept a teacher and he acts like many of these fanatical teachers, saying things against the Torah and not answering your objections then you may reject them as a teacher.  Also Mitzvah Leshmoa Ledivrei chachomim refers to Chachamim who are real Chachamim, not learned Rabbis who make obvious mistakes that are rejected by the Rabbis of previous generations.

1. A torah observant person has a chezkas kashrus to learn from if he is a known talmud chacham.
2. Just what do you mean by fanatical? I should hope you're not calling the non-kahanist frum jews 'fanatical' just because they don't agree with your hashkofa

[chakma613]

JDL4EVER, why do you believe yeshivas  such as lakewood and Torah vodath are so anti zionist?

Because they are crazy fanatics.  Chachma613 says

not filtering the water makes the food made with it trief

and with this nonsense being taught, you understand why they are so crazy.  Chachma, I don't filter my water and neither did R' Moshe Feinstein, your grandparents or the Rambam for that matter.  Are we all drinking non Kosher water?  Really, I want to know if you think the Rambam drank non Kosher water. 

JDL4EVER, well said. I also doubt Rabbi Kahane or Chaim Ben Pesach filter their water and both of these jews have sacrificed themselves for the jewish cause more that all the rabbis of torah vodath and lakewood combined.

One thing has nothing to do with another - also, the lakewood crowd supports the world with their learning, whether you see it that way or not, it doesn't change the magnitude of their mitzvos and the merit that they are achieving through said learning. You're entitled to disagree with YTV and lakewood, but to say that they do not contribute to the jewish community is wrong

[jdl4ever]

1.  Any Jew that is truly learning Torah but is being supported by himself or by his parents willfully (meaning he didn't ague with his parents and make them support him when they didn't want to) until he becomes a Rabbi is contributing to the Jewish world spiritually by their learning. 

2.  I agree with the Rambam's words that anyone who is learning off charity is trampling on the Torah, is sinning and will burn in hell.   I also agree with our Sages who write in Pirkai Avot that Torah without a livelihood causes sin and you will end up burning in hell.  The only exception who I don't think are sinning by learning w/o working themselves is if they are a big Torah Scholar and they have someone who volunteers to support them.

3.  I think that Kahanism for the most part is the correct Torah Path but I don't hate non Kahanist Jews as you say I do.  I will debate them though, and so far no one has been able to debate me.  I think that fanatical Jews that break the chain of tradition and teach fanatical beliefs are evil.  Like being anti Zionist (meaning Israel should be abandoned to save 1 Jewish life as my Principle stated), saying that the only correct path is one who learns all day, saying that Jews who work for a living are ignorent, saying that Rabbis must be worshiped and followed blindly regardless of the correctness of their actions, saying that not religious Jews don't matter, picking up prostitutes at night while learning during the day with a Stramuel, causing your fellow Jews to sin by teaching them fanaticism in your Yeshiva, making people leave Judaism by teaching fanaticism etc.  Saying that water has to be filtered in order to be Kosher is bordering on insanity as well but I won't call it evil, I call it stupid.

[chakma613]

1.  Any Jew that is truly learning Torah but is being supported by himself or by his parents willfully (meaning he didn't ague with his parents and make them support him when they didn't want to) until he becomes a Rabbi is contributing to the Jewish world spiritually by their learning. 

2.  I agree with the Rambam's words that anyone who is learning off charity is trampling on the Torah, is sinning and will burn in hell.   I also agree with our Sages who write in Pirkai Avot that Torah without a livelihood causes sin and you will end up burning in hell.  The only exception who I don't think are sinning by learning w/o working themselves is if they are a big Torah Scholar and they have someone who volunteers to support them.

3.  I think that Kahanism for the most part is the correct Torah Path but I don't hate non Kahanist Jews as you say I do.  I will debate them though, and so far no one has been able to debate me.  I think that fanatical Jews that break the chain of tradition and teach fanatical beliefs are evil.  Like being anti Zionist (meaning Israel should be abandoned to save 1 Jewish life as my Principle stated), saying that the only correct path is one who learns all day, saying that Jews who work for a living are ignorent, saying that Rabbis must be worshiped and followed blindly regardless of the correctness of their actions, saying that not religious Jews don't matter, picking up prostitutes at night while learning during the day with a Stramuel, causing your fellow Jews to sin by teaching them fanaticism in your Yeshiva, making people leave Judaism by teaching fanaticism etc.  Saying that water has to be filtered in order to be Kosher is bordering on insanity as well but I won't call it evil, I call it stupid.

RE1: we finally agree on something.
RE2: Supporting a talmud chacham can hardly be seen as charity. In addition, abandoning torah study for the sake of worldly occupation is talked about in the Gemara(masekta ta'anis), see the story about Reb Yochanan and Ilfa...the mala'achim wanted to kill them because they wanted to earn a living rather than study.
RE3:What you conisder fanaticism is what the rabbanim paskened the halacha as, if you want to debate with them go ahead. What they teach at my yeshiva is torah, not fanaticism and had it not been for them, I'd still be a secular Jew. Also, as I said before, there are 70 paths to torah, all are equal; you cannot say that Kahanism is the only way, it may be for you, but not every Jew is the same. I know I'll get flamed for saying this, but not many gedolim supported secular zionism, they did in the beginning, but it was always a touchy subject. Now, religious zionism is a different story, but they are sadly the minority in Israel, so I will talk for now about the secular zionists. I can certainly understand the charedi opposition to secular zionism, and had I been around when the early secular zionists were around, I would have been against them too. However now that religious zionism is a reality, it should be embraced and taught in mainstream yeshivos(which it is, for the most part), but we must respect members of the frum community who wish to not be zionistic, we can debate with them and such, but being a non-zionist does not equal being evil, to say that would mean that almost every Gadol at the time of 1948 was evil