Polygamy.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I've been noticing that Chaim's belief that polygamy is not at all inherently wrong has been stirring up quite a bit of dissent, so I wanted to cast my lot into the waters and state my stance, hopefully bringing some calm.

A: Chaim has every right to his views and I don't think it's appropriate to be angry with him over this or anything else. Moreover, the people of Israel have every right to decide how the Jewish state should be and what will and will not be allowed. As long as nobody is being forced into marriages they do not want, it will not bother me if the Jews choose to permit this for themselves in their own land.

B: Do I like the idea of polygamy personally? No. It does seem unnatural to me. However, one must admit that like Chaim pointed out, most of the great Jewish fathers and prophets and leaders had many wives, and it is never actually condemned, and in fact it appears in some cases that G-d blessed righteous men with many wives. I do think Lisa has a valid case that the Genesis plan appears to be one man/one woman, but this is never explicitly stated. Thus, I can't say for a fact whether it is right or wrong. 

Chaimfan

[newman]

Anybody who wants more than one mother-in-law is crazy.

[Jasmina]

Anybody who wants more than one mother-in-law is crazy.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Poligamy is normal for men.  Men are designed to have many children by many women.

Women are designed to have one child at a time, making polygamy--in their case--futile.

This is how men and women are designed...differently.  For good or for bad.

This explains why (for men), "the day you stop looking is the day you die."  The same cannot be said about women.

[newman]

With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.

[Joe Schmo]

With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.

That's true.  Many men have to either die, or be without a woman for polygamy to work.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The same cannot be said about women.

I really don't know about that. Infidelity statistics prove that there are plenty of exceptions.

[Jasmina]

Poligamy is normal for men.  Men are designed to have many children by many women.

Women are designed to have one child at a time, making polygamy--in their case--futile.

This is how men and women are designed...differently.  For good or for bad.

This explains why (for men), "the day you stop looking is the day you die."  The same cannot be said about women.

 I am NOT agree with what you just said!!!  and I think that MEN who are doing this are just very frustrated, insecure of themselves, need more attention from many women or ANY women! I personally don`t think  that is MENs nature, it`s just a justification of their insecureness..it`s simple! Men who are doing that are just BASTARDS!

[Joe Schmo]

The same cannot be said about women.

I really don't know about that. Infidelity statistics prove that there are plenty of exceptions.

Women cheat for a different reason.

Men are naturally turned on by exciting, new women and cheat for this reason, mainly.

Women cheat when their spouse isn't there for them in some form or another.  When women cheat, it is either to get back at their spouse or because they simply feel secure having a man close by.

[Joe Schmo]

Poligamy is normal for men.  Men are designed to have many children by many women.

Women are designed to have one child at a time, making polygamy--in their case--futile.

This is how men and women are designed...differently.  For good or for bad.

This explains why (for men), "the day you stop looking is the day you die."  The same cannot be said about women.

 I am NOT agree with what you just said!!!  and I think that MEN who are doing this are just very frustrated, insecure of themselves, need more attention from many women or ANY women! I personally don`t think  that is MENs nature, it`s just a justification of their insecureness..it`s simple! Men who are doing that are just BASTARDS!

Then, men are bastards. 

This is how men are, like it or not.

[newman]

Poligamy is normal for men.  Men are designed to have many children by many women.

Women are designed to have one child at a time, making polygamy--in their case--futile.

This is how men and women are designed...differently.  For good or for bad.

This explains why (for men), "the day you stop looking is the day you die."  The same cannot be said about women.

 I am NOT agree with what you just said!!!  and I think that MEN who are doing this are just very frustrated, insecure of themselves, need more attention from many women or ANY women! I personally don`t think  that is MENs nature, it`s just a justification of their insecureness..it`s simple! Men who are doing that are just BASTARDS!

I hope your boyfriend doesn't  annoy you, Yasmine!

[DownwithIslam]

I am also totally against polygammy. Do we really want to be like muslims popping out 60 kids per man with 20 different women. I do want jews to reproduce but we can't risk something like polygammy.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Men are naturally turned on by exciting, new women and cheat for this reason, mainly.

Women cheat when their spouse isn't there for them in some form or another.  When women cheat, it is either to get back at their spouse or because they simply feel secure having a man close by.

Historically this may have been true, but now the lines are so blurred they don't really exist much anymore. Plenty of women are sexually predatory and plenty of men want a nice, stable girl to settle down and start a family with.

[Joe Schmo]

Men are naturally turned on by exciting, new women and cheat for this reason, mainly.

Women cheat when their spouse isn't there for them in some form or another.  When women cheat, it is either to get back at their spouse or because they simply feel secure having a man close by.

Historically this may have been true, but now the lines are so blurred they don't really exist much anymore. Plenty of women are sexually predatory and plenty of men want a nice, stable girl to settle down and start a family with.

Yes. There are exceptions...like intelligent black people.

There are some women that are complete sluts (most only give the appearance of being sluts) and there are some men that are fruitcakes. 

I'm talking about averages, however.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Well, I think Chaim is somewhat in the category I gave. He just wants to marry a devout, G-dly Jewish woman and start a family.

[Joe Schmo]

Well, I think Chaim is somewhat in the category I gave. He just wants to marry a devout, G-dly Jewish woman and start a family.

You're speaking of morality.

I'm speaking of sexual attraction and human nature.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yes, but I think sexuality is largely culturally-driven. In the modern West, most men believe seeing two women together sexually is a turn-on and "hot" and "cool". Two generations ago in the West, most men would have found it sickening.

Times change and shift constantly.

[chakma613]

A small problem in Chaim's defense of polygamy were the saddiqs that he mentioned. I think he mentioned King Solomon A"h. The Torah cleary denounced any king that had too many wives, and that ended up being the source of Solomon's downfall. Of course, he was a great saint, but like all humans, he made a mistake.

This is actually what I appreciate about the Bible. The Bible expects that people will screw up, even the most righteous. And these righteous people showed us that it is possible to repent for our own wrongdoings if we are just honest with ourselves and G-d.

Let me give the Torah's perspective here..Shlomo Hamelech(king solomon), was actually criticized for having so many wives by the talmud, it even says that he became temporarily idolatrous because he had so many wives(shikselehs to boot). Ashkenazic jews(eastern european), cannot practice polygamy anymore, after the decree of the Rishon Rabbeinu Gershom, who decreed that, among other thins, men can no longer have more than one wife, due to the fact that he saw that they were not doing it for the sake of the mitzva(l'shmo), anymore. The people who were practicing polygamy were having more than one wife for the sake of enjoyment, and not for the mitzvos that one can accomplish with the practice(like taking care of widdows, orphans, and converts, for an example of this, look at the story of Ruth).

Polygamy is wrong if not done for the right reasons - Rabbeinu Gershom lived hundreds of yars ago, if the people of his time, who were virtually all frum(religious Jews), coud not handle polygamy, then how brazen are we to postulate that we can, in our downtrodden era?

[jdl4ever]

Chakma613, I'm sorry to tell you this but you are mistaken.  First of all, polygamy is NOT wrong, the Torah allows polygamy and whatever the Torah allows is permitted.  Rabbis are NOT allowed to make decrees forbidding something the Torah permits, as the Torah says "do not add to it and do not take away from it" with the one exception of a Horah Shah or in English an emergency temporary decree lasting a very short time.  This is why Rabbenu Gershom's decree is controversial, since he made a 1000 year decree, which JDL4EVER and the Sephardic Jews think that this is not allowed for a Rabbi to do, since a Horah Shah is only supposed to be a for a very short time period of imminent like at most for lasting a few years.  The second mystery is why Rabbenu Gershom made this decree.  You give an explanation that the Jews weren't practicing polygamy properly which makes no sense at all to me, there is no proper way at all to practice polygamy if it is a permitted practice.  In my opinion, the real explanation is that he didn't want the Gentiles living with us to make fun of us for having several wives when they don't practice polygamy any more, so he made this decree.  Obviously, if this was the reason for his decree "to not offend the Gentiles", then we can understand why the Sephardic Jews didn't accept this decree since this is not a reason of imminent need, as R' Kahane would say "who cares about what the Gentiles think, we follow the Torah".  Thirdly, his 1000 year decree expired already so polygamy is no longer forbidden for Askenazim, but none the less we don't do it any more since it hasn't been practiced for 1000 years.  The Sephardic Jews recently used to practice polygamy.  My father's Karate instructor was a Sephardic Jew from an Arab country who's father had 2 wives.

You have to be careful to not add anything to the Torah like making up stories that when polygamy was used to only allowed if you marry orphans.  I know your intentions are for the sake of heaven, but you are adding to the Torah, which is forbidden.  The Torah allows polygamy and does not add any rules to it with the exception on the limit on the number of wives you could have.

[chakma613]

Chakma613, I'm sorry to tell you this but you are mistaken.  First of all, polygamy is NOT wrong, the Torah allows polygamy and whatever the Torah allows is permitted.  Rabbis are NOT allowed to make decrees forbidding something the Torah permits, with the exception of a Horah Shah or in English an emergency temporary decree lasting a very short time.  This is why Rabbenu Gershom's decree is controversial, since he made a 1000 year decree, which JDL4EVER and the Sephardic Jews think that this is not allowed for a Rabbi to do, since a Horay Shah is only supposed to be a for a very short time period of imminent need.  The second mystery is why Rabbenu Gershom made this decree.  You give an explanation that the Jews weren't practicing polygamy properly which makes no sense to me.  In my opinion, the real explanation is that he didn't want the Gentiles living with us to make fun of us for having several wives when they don't practice this any more, so he made this decree.  Obviously, if this was the reason for his decree "to not offend the Gentiles", then we can understand why the Sephardic Jews didn't accept this decree since this is not a reason of imminent need, as R' Kahane would say "who cares about what the Gentiles think, we follow the Torah".  Thirdly, his 1000 year decree expired so polygamy is no longer forbidden for Askenazim, but none the less we don't do it any more since it hasn't been practiced for 1000 years.  The Sephardic Jews recently used to practice polygamy.  My father's Karate instructor was a Sephardic Jew from an Arab country who's father had 2 wives.

The reason I gave for Rabbeinu Gershom's decree is what he wrote in his sefer, I did not invent anything and attribut it to him cv's. Sephardim can still practice polygamy, however it is undisputed in the Ashkenazic community that what RG said holds true for today. I do not know where you get the idea that we(Ashken. Jews), do not have to follow the decree anymore, but until a leading posek(such as R' Eliyahsiv), in the Ashk. community decides that we no longer have to follow it, we must, we cannot take torah into our own hands and be our own poskim. RG was a great rishon who deserves respect - his decree became a custom for the Jewish people to follow, and to my knowledge, it had nothing to do with the Goyim's attitude. Even if it did, I'm sorry to say it, but while R' Kahane was great, He was NOT a rishon. he wasn't even a posek. It's like comparing him to Rambam, Rosh, Maharsha, etc..it can't be done.

[raiseyourfist]

Poligamy is normal for men.  Men are designed to have many children by many women.

Women are designed to have one child at a time, making polygamy--in their case--futile.

This is how men and women are designed...differently.  For good or for bad.

This explains why (for men), "the day you stop looking is the day you die."  The same cannot be said about women.

  I am NOT agree with what you just said!!!  and I think that MEN who are doing this are just very frustrated, insecure of themselves, need more attention from many women or ANY women! I personally don`t think  that is MENs nature, it`s just a justification of their insecureness..it`s simple! Men who are doing that are just BASTARDS!

I hope your boyfriend doesn't  annoy you, Yasmine!

ahahahahh ..... this guy's always on

[raiseyourfist]

the only people who have polygamy are the Muslims... do we really need to do what they do... they are immoral and unworthy of having one wife let alone two or more...

Polygamy is something the jews did back then because there wern't that many at all and needed to become a "mass movement" so to speak...

I personally think we are in the 21st century... we shouldn't have polygamy because it completely destroys the idea of love for one person which is a very beautiful thing... I can't even get one Lady friend... imagine what its going to be like for women and men trying to find their soul mate if this were ever instated

[jdl4ever]

The reason I gave for Rabbeinu Gershom's decree is what he wrote in his sefer, I did not invent anything and attribut it to him cv's. Sephardim can still practice polygamy, however it is undisputed in the Ashkenazic community that what RG said holds true for today. I do not know where you get the idea that we(Ashken. Jews), do not have to follow the decree anymore, but until a leading posek(such as R' Eliyahsiv), in the Ashk. community decides that we no longer have to follow it, we must, we cannot take torah into our own hands and be our own poskim. RG was a great rishon who deserves respect - his decree became a custom for the Jewish people to follow, and to my knowledge, it had nothing to do with the Goyim's attitude. Even if it did, I'm sorry to say it, but while R' Kahane was great, He was NOT a rishon. he wasn't even a posek. It's like comparing him to Rambam, Rosh, Maharsha, etc..it can't be done.

If he did give the reason you gave, then I am mistaken.  If you can give a source then please do so.  I did not deny that R' Gershom was a great authority and the practice of polygamy is still not practiced by myself and the Askenazim nor do I plan on having more than one wife.  I was arguing Torah with you, and showing you the Sephardic point of view since they do have a valid Torah objection which I agree with.  Just because someone is a Sage does not mean that we are not allowed to confront them on their teachings if we think they made a mistake, as R' Kahane writes these same words and proves it from the incident with Hanah and Eli in Samuel 1.  Secondly, how do you know that R' Gershom was a bigger sage than R' Kahane?  I think that R' Kahane was on par with R' Gershom. 

Also the guy's decree was only for 1000 years which passed.

[chakma613]

The reason I gave for Rabbeinu Gershom's decree is what he wrote in his sefer, I did not invent anything and attribut it to him cv's. Sephardim can still practice polygamy, however it is undisputed in the Ashkenazic community that what RG said holds true for today. I do not know where you get the idea that we(Ashken. Jews), do not have to follow the decree anymore, but until a leading posek(such as R' Eliyahsiv), in the Ashk. community decides that we no longer have to follow it, we must, we cannot take torah into our own hands and be our own poskim. RG was a great rishon who deserves respect - his decree became a custom for the Jewish people to follow, and to my knowledge, it had nothing to do with the Goyim's attitude. Even if it did, I'm sorry to say it, but while R' Kahane was great, He was NOT a rishon. he wasn't even a posek. It's like comparing him to Rambam, Rosh, Maharsha, etc..it can't be done.

If he did give the reason you gave, then I am mistaken.  If you can give a source then please do so.  I did not deny that R' Gershom was a great authority and the practice of polygamy is still not practiced by myself and the Askenazim nor do I plan on having more than one wife.  I was arguing Torah with you, and showing you the Sephardic point of view since they do have a valid Torah objection which I agree with.  Just because someone is a Sage does not mean that we are not allowed to confront them on their teachings if we think they made a mistake, as R' Kahane writes these same words and proves it from the incident with Hanah and Eli in Samuel 1.  Secondly, how do you know that R' Gershom was a bigger sage than R' Kahane?  I think that R' Kahane was on par with R' Gershom. 

I know that R'Gershom was a greater sage because we have a teaching that states that with every generation, we lose a little bit of Torah or rather, we get further away from it, we are on a downward cycle, until Mosiach comes. Even in the times o the Gemara this was so, See Talmud Brachos chapter keitzad mevarchin for a strory about the differences between the "doros hareshonim" and the "doros achronim". To say that the Torah of Rabbi Kahane was even close to that of RG, is like saying that Rashi is like Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT'L, you can't compare a rishon with an acharei achron.

[chakma613]

the only people who have polygamy are the Muslims... do we really need to do what they do... they are immoral and unworthy of having one wife let alone two or more...

Polygamy is something the jews did back then because there wern't that many at all and needed to become a "mass movement" so to speak...

I personally think we are in the 21st century... we shouldn't have polygamy because it completely destroys the idea of love for one person which is a very beautiful thing... I can't even get one Lady friend... imagine what its going to be like for women and men trying to find their soul mate if this were ever instated

From the perspective of Jeiwsh law, that is not a valid argument. Torah dopes not change, period. However, there are valid arguments for the ban on polygamy within halacha, bu what you said is basically what the reformers and conservatives say, they base their "halachik" decisions on the "times"