Transhumanism

[Yehudayaakov]

I was talking about this topic earlier today and someone suggested that I start another thread on it.

In the past when I've brought this up it's gotten mixed responses. I feel that it's an important topic to bring up again though because there hasn't been a lot of mainstream coverage of it, and it is a threat to the survival of the human species.

There's a movement called transhumanism. It's followers are a mix of scientists, new agers, occultists, philosphers, etc. Basically the idea is that through technology the identity and future of the human race can be changed so that we become something other than human, something better.

Beings who are vastly intelligent, feel no unecessary pain, either physically or emotionally, and live extremely extended lifespans.

One transhumanist I saw in a documentary said that the forms our bodies take in the future will become a matter of choice such that a fashion designer could be designing bodies for people, and your body could become the ultimate expression of fashion.

When we think of body modification as it stands today, we think of things like tattoos, eye tattoos, brandings, implants for breast augmentation or to create the appearance of bumps under the skin, piercings, a pace maker, etc. but none of these fundamentally change the person's human identity. They are just as human as those who are un-modified. They live human lives and think human thoughts.

Transhumanism involves much more than that. The changes are much more fundamental. It involves genetically changing people, and not just with human genes either. Just like there is corn growing that has genes from a fish in it, and cell lines called "humster" (human/hamster), there are scientists who wish to take traits from the animal, plant, fungi, etc. kingdom and use those genetics to upgrade humanity.

Some transhumanists imagine people becoming like gods, some imagine people each having multiple sex organs shaped in a carefully designed way for nerve bundles, friction, etc. for the ultimate sexual experience. Some imagine that there will be so many diferent types of bodies that it will be more variation than the Cambrian explosion and that humans will diverge into thousands of different species.

I think that, if you are a Bible believer, and believe that God has created human beings in his own image, that you should stand against this. Whatever these people have planned will pale in comparison to what God's plan is for us. I just want you all to be aware that this movement is out there and the idea is growing in popularity. It will become a threat to humanity in the future and its beginnings may be closer than we imagine.

what is the israeli authorities' stance on this issue?  the israeli authority must take steps to ensure the security of the Jewish race that has seen multitude attempt of destruction and particularly on this issue with germania the last war and his attempt of creating a superior men that resemble a lot of what you 're describing here, it's  israeli authority job to protect his Jewish inhabitants before a growing thraet, it's a matter of national defense!

[angryChineseKahanist]

So anyway... to avoid accusations that this is all just science fiction I will try to be posting stories that are happening right now (in current time) so people can get an idea of how fast this technology will be progressing.

http://www.nature.com/news/chinese-scientists-genetically-modify-human-embryos-1.17378

curing cancer sounds great.
Oh the other hand...
Hitler would have loved this.

[muman613]

Jews have been making body modifications for 3300 years. We call it Brit Milah (or circumcision).

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I am against the mixing of DNA of different species. It is forbidden. Makes me think of the times of Enoch.

[Rubystars]

I am against the mixing of DNA of different species. It is forbidden. Makes me think of the times of Enoch.

I was thinking along the same exact lines. I know many people don't believe in this but I think that there were fallen ones that mixed their DNA with humans and created the giant abominations.

[Rubystars]

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/04/24/in-risky-move-scientists-edit-human-embryos-dna/

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I was thinking along the same exact lines. I know many people don't believe in this but I think that there were fallen ones that mixed their DNA with humans and created the giant abominations.

Nephilim do exist in some sects of Judaism and Christianity. We can argue as much as we want, but it was written in ancient texts.

[Rubystars]

Nephilim do exist in some sects of Judaism and Christianity. We can argue as much as we want, but it was written in ancient texts.

I believe that this is what Goliath and King Og were as well as other giants mentioned in the Bible.

[Yirmayahu]

All this talk still belong deep into the realm of science fiction and the real science is nowhere near that point. There are urgent medical problems still waiting to be solved and tissue engineering, and bionics could provide cures for many.

I don't think there is any serious research being done about how to "transform" a human into a creature with multiple sex organs that can breath under water. If such thing is ever going to happen we are going to see beforehand some huge advancement in life science with blessed applications for people who actually need it.

I seem to remember the same thing being said before our modern age; things such as, "if G-d wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings." Such things were said about travel to space, to the moon, and traveling to the depths of the sea. If you a study into Genesis 6:2 using extraTanakh sources like Josephus and 1Enoch you can see that genetic manipulation happened before Noah's flood. I don't put many limits (although there are some absolutes that limit man) man and what he can do if given outside help by spiritual forces.

 

[muman613]

I seem to remember the same thing being said before our modern age; things such as, "if G-d wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings." Such things were said about travel to space, to the moon, and traveling to the depths of the sea. If you a study into Genesis 6:2 using extraTanakh sources like Josephus and 1Enoch you can see that genetic manipulation happened before Noah's flood. I don't put many limits (although there are some absolutes that limit man) man and what he can do if given outside help by spiritual forces.

 

It should be made clear though that Enoch is not a Jewish source. It is not a part of our Tanakh... It is considered Apocryphal.

But it is true that there was a race of giants...

[muman613]

The discussion of the Nephalim come up from time to time here at JTF. I have provided links to source which attempt to explain these mysterious races and repost some of it here.

Fallen Angels

Question: The Torah mentions the Nephilim as giants in both sections Genesis 6-4 and book of Numbers. Who and what are they? I have had conflicting answers that they were fallen angels to just a story thrown in as filler? Can you please shed some light on this subject?

Answer: The most basic understanding of the Nephilim is that they were in fact giants as you mention. The word Nephilim is derived from the Hebrew word Naphal which literally means “fall or drop”. The commentators explain that these giants were called Nephilim since the hearts of those that saw them would “drop” as a result of seeing these awesome beings.

There also exists a Rabbinic tradition mentioned in some Midrashim and commentaries that the Nephilim were two angels who descended to earth to become humans. According to this tradition, they were called Nephilim since they “fell” from heaven to earth, from the spiritual world to the physical world (again deriving from the Heberew word Naphal meaning fall). Certainly according to this tradition, these fallen angels were giant beings as well.

This Rabbinic tradition further asserts that two of the children of these fallen angels were none other than Og and Sichon, mentioned in Numbers as the powerful kings of Bashan and the Emorites respectively. The Nephilim mentioned in Numbers as giants that the spies saw while spying out the land of Israel were therefore Og and Sichon.

Of course, any mention of fallen angels who in essense became humans, begs a deeper understanding. Recall that these fallen angels are mentioned in the same context as the intense immorality which pervaded mankind. The actions of mankind have reprecussions far beyond the physical world we find ourselves in. All our actions, whether positive or negative impact the spiritual worlds as well. The world had become so depraven that it impacted even how the angels behaved, to the extent that some angels descended from their pure spiritual realm to our physical world. The fallen angels were therefore, in essence the result of the actions of mankind on earth.

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http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/289/Q3/

Glenn Slocum from McKinleyville, CA wrote:

    Dear Rabbi,

    What are the "Nephilim" mentioned in the Torah?

Dear Glenn Slocum,

The Nephilim are mentioned twice in the Torah (Genesis 6, Numbers 13). "Nephilim" means "the fallen ones." They were people of giant stature. It is not clear how large they were, but were large enough to scare other people. The Targum Yerushalmi, which is a Midrash, explains that they were Angels who descended to the Earth. According to this they were called fallen ones because they fell from their heavenly stature. The Ramban explains otherwise, that they were the other children of Adam. Because Adam, the First Man, was the handiwork of G-d, his children were of greater physical stature than their descendants. Because these people were so close to the Creator, they knew that they had no grandfather, they should have been spiritually elevated. Because they didn't live up to their potential they were considered "fallen ones."

Discussion of Sichon & Og (Two Giant Kings which Moses and the Children of Israel fought)

http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/98195594.html

http://www.torahaura.com/Bible/Learn_Torah_With/LTW_5761/LTW_5761_Noah/ltw_5761_noah.html
THE SONS OF GOD AND THE DAUGHTERS OF MEN

Many of the best-known biblical episodes are found in the early portion of Genesis, prior to the story of Abraham. These include the accounts of the creation, of Adam and Eve, of Noah, and of the Tower of Babel. But one enigmatic episode that is consistently overlooked is Genesis 6:1-4, concerning the Sons of God (B’nai Elohim) and the daughters of men:

When men began to increase on earth and daughters were born to them, the Sons of God saw how beautiful the daughters of men were and took wives from among those that pleased them.

The Lord said, “My breath shall not abide in man forever, since he too is flesh; let the days allowed him be one hundred and twenty years.”

It was then, and later too, that the Nephilim appeared on earth when the Sons of God cohabited with the daughters of men, who bore them offspring. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown.

Like the account of the Tower of Babel, this mythic account of the mysterious Sons of God seems to appear from out of nowhere. Indeed, it may well be a mythic interpolation, added to explain why, a few verses later, the earth was corrupt before God (Gen. 6:11), much as the story of the Tower of Babel explains the origin of the many languages, as well as the dissemination of people over the earth.

The primary mystery of Genesis 6 is the identity of the Sons of God. Present-day commentators suggest that this may have been a tribe of exceptionally tall and handsome men who appeared and were irresistible to women. But the ancient rabbis were certain that the Sons of God were angels. (Although an alternate version in Aggadat Bereshit identifies them as the Sons of Cain.) As a model, the rabbis drew on the prologue to Job, where God and Satan agree to test Job to see if he is truly righteous. Here God has a dialogue in heaven with two angels, Shemhazai and Azazel, who condemn the corrupt ways of men. God argues that if they lived on earth they would behave the same way, because every one on earth is subject to the Yetzer ha-Ra, the evil inclination. The angels insist that they would remain righteous and convince God to let them descend to earth (in some versions, by Jacob’s ladder). When they do, they are immediately filled with lust over the beautiful daughters of men, and use their heavenly powers to satisfy their basest desires. And the offspring of these unions are described as the Nephilim, which has been interpreted to mean giants. Thus the account in Genesis 6 also provides the origin of giants.

There are many rabbinic variants of the story of the two angels from a wide range of sources, including The Book of Enoch (1 Enoch) and Yalkut Shimoni. The best-known of these stories concerns two maidens, Ishtahar and Na’amah, whom the two angels sought to seduce, as follows:

[Binyamin Yisrael]

It should be made clear though that Enoch is not a Jewish source. It is not a part of our Tanakh... It is considered Apocryphal.

But it is true that there was a race of giants...

That's why he said "extra Tanach". It's outside of the Bible but was Jewish in origin like the Book of Maccabees. Some Xtains have it in the "Old Test-ment" section of their bible. Although it was Jewish in origin, it's not considered holy and may or may not be in line with Judaism. It could have been written by self-hating Jews or Jews of heretical sects.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

That's why he said "extra Tanach". It's outside of the Bible but was Jewish in origin like the Book of Maccabees. Some Xtains have it in the "Old Test-ment" section of their bible. Although it was Jewish in origin, it's not considered holy and may or may not be in line with Judaism. It could have been written by self-hating Jews or Jews of heretical sects.

No Christian Bible includes the book of Enoch.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

No Christian Bible includes the book of Enoch.

I think the Ethiopian churches still has it in their Bible. The early Christians had it. The Essenes had it. Another group still today has a really cool legend about Enoch.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Read Muman's posts.

[Rubystars]

No Christian Bible includes the book of Enoch.

Enoch is referred to in the Bible but I don't think the book itself has been canonized.

However there's enough evidence within canon Scripture that talks about the giants to know they were a real race of beings, and their origins are touched on in Genesis chapter 6.

[Zelhar]

I don't know how you mean that relates to what I've said. I wasn't making any theological or philosophical argument here. To my understanding the scientific capability at the present as well as where current research is put at makes this "transhumanism" science fiction, that doesn't mean it is impossible to achieve at some point in the future.

Classical sci-fi is defined by a "what could happen if we just solve that one 'little' obstacle". A classical example is if we could come up with an efficient way for interplanetary travel then we could colonize Mars with current technology. Transhumanists make conjecture of what would happen if only medicine and life science would make it possible to re-engineer the human body and enhance his abilities in a much more significant way then can be done today.

I seem to remember the same thing being said before our modern age; things such as, "if G-d wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings." Such things were said about travel to space, to the moon, and traveling to the depths of the sea. If you a study into Genesis 6:2 using extraTanakh sources like Josephus and 1Enoch you can see that genetic manipulation happened before Noah's flood. I don't put many limits (although there are some absolutes that limit man) man and what he can do if given outside help by spiritual forces.

 

[Rubystars]

What concerns me Zelhar is that their predicted timeline is a lot shorter than what we can ignore. They're not talking about being able to do this 500 years from now. They're talking more like 50 or less. So this is something we do need to think about, especially for those of us who are Bible believers and believe humans are created in God's image or created by God in the way that we are for a reason.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

curing cancer sounds great.
Oh the other hand...
Hitler would have loved this.

Hitler also wanted to cure cancer because he believed that would enable him to live forever.  He specially hired the (I'm pretty sure he was Jewish) excellent German scientist Otto Warburg to cure cancer and let him live for that purpose only.   Warburg revolutionized the understanding of cancer and I think eventually won a nobel. 
As with most antisemites, they are betamales helpless without the aid of Jewish expertise and will readily use Jewish people to their benefit while simultaneously promoting their death and trying to rid the world of Jews.  Probably, feelings of inadequacy are involved.

The fact that Hitler wanted to cure cancer does not mean we should not want to.

[muman613]

Nobody will live forever. Even the mightiest of stars eventually come to an end. I do not fear what these people are doing. Like those who tried to build the tower of Babel, if Hashem wills it not to happen, it will not happen. People have tried to escape the limitations of physicality since our creation. But the physical world has limits, and time is a limit, and time limits all which exists in the physical world. Once Hashem began the process of creation time began, before this there was no time. Once time has begun there is cause and effect, and events in the past have lead to the reality which we live in today. All the fantasy in the world will not change the physical world. The constraint of time will always be a challenge. I do not fear the future at all because of this. As others have said, it is fine if it extends the life of a person, but to seek immortality is folly.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Nobody will live forever. Even the mightiest of stars eventually come to an end. I do not fear what these people are doing. Like those who tried to build the tower of Babel, if Hashem wills it not to happen, it will not happen. People have tried to escape the limitations of physicality since our creation. But the physical world has limits, and time is a limit, and time limits all which exists in the physical world. Once Hashem began the process of creation time began, before this there was no time. Once time has begun there is cause and effect, and events in the past have lead to the reality which we live in today. All the fantasy in the world will not change the physical world. The constraint of time will always be a challenge. I do not fear the future at all because of this. As others have said, it is fine if it extends the life of a person, but to seek immortality is folly.

But the Next World will be eternal. What you said about stars reminds me of when I E-mailed Natan Aviezer, a Bar-Ilan University Science professor and asked him if the Sun will really die and how could we live without Earth and Eretz Yisrael. By then the Mashiach will come and we will have the Temple. He suggested perhaps the Mashiach could come to another planet and we would have the Temple there. This was about 10 years after hearing him being interviewed on Arutz 7.

[Rubystars]

Nobody will live forever. Even the mightiest of stars eventually come to an end. I do not fear what these people are doing. Like those who tried to build the tower of Babel, if Hashem wills it not to happen, it will not happen. People have tried to escape the limitations of physicality since our creation. But the physical world has limits, and time is a limit, and time limits all which exists in the physical world. Once Hashem began the process of creation time began, before this there was no time. Once time has begun there is cause and effect, and events in the past have lead to the reality which we live in today. All the fantasy in the world will not change the physical world. The constraint of time will always be a challenge. I do not fear the future at all because of this. As others have said, it is fine if it extends the life of a person, but to seek immortality is folly.

The tower of Babel is a good analogy for what they're trying to do. The sad thing though is that they will probably offer an upgrade and then it will be a catastrohpic failure in some way or cause horrible sores to break out on people or something along those lines.

In the short term though there could be some enhancements that might work to create an underclass and an overclass and that could be dangerous in its own right.

[Yirmayahu]

No Christian Bible includes the book of Enoch.

I guess you haven't seen an Ethiopian Bible. It has 1 Enoch within it. Are you saying that Ethiopian Christians aren't Christians?

[Rubystars]

I've heard there is a legitimate book of Enoch (may be 1) and some other, occultic books of Enoch which aren't valid. I haven't read it but I have heard people talk about it.

[muman613]

Once again, Judaism considers this apocryphal and not a part of Jewish faith.