Chaim and Jimmy React To Thread On Experiments

[jsullivan]

This same post appears at the end of the now locked thread on experiments on Muslim terrorists.

I asked Chaim to help me with this response. And so part of this response is from me and part of it is from Chaim's e-mail to me.

Here are my comments:

Now at the very time that Chaim is applying to go back to Israel, we have to have this stupid dispute? This is the moment of truth to determine if we will be able to build a mass movement to save America, Israel and Western civilization. All of this can happen only if we succeed in getting Chaim into Israel so that he can form a political party there. At this critical time, we are having this ridiculous argument?

Threads like this should not be opened on this forum because they can harm JTF. The next time someone starts a thread like this, it should be locked and eliminated immediately.

But having said that, to have any mercy whatsoever on Muslim Nazi terrorists for any reason is completely immoral.

**************************************************************************************

Now here is what Chaim wrote to me in his e-mail:

"He who is merciful to the cruel is destined to be cruel to the merciful" (Midrash Rabbah on Kohelet in the Talmud).

We see how this Talmudic wisdom is proven true over and over again. The same leftists who are merciful to Arab Muslim Nazis in Israel are cruel beyond words to the Muslims' Jewish victims. Those who have pity on Muslim Nazi terrorists ALWAYS wind up being cruel to the millions of Christians, Jews, Hindus and others who have been murdered by the Muslims over the years.

****************************************************************************************

And now I, Jimmy Sullivan, have to interject:

We even see this on this very forum. Chaim Ben Pesach saved over a million Soviet Jews in the 1980s, and if given a chance, might G-d willing be able to save millions of Israeli Jews and American Gentiles from a Muslim holocaust. But instead of having pity on Chaim, and on the millions of Jews and Gentiles that he wants to save from annihilation, there are one or two posters here who said that they are willing to leave the movement because of their concern over a thread about experimenting on Muslim Nazi terrorists or torturing Muslim Nazi terrorists or whatever. If anyone does actually leave because of this, then they are putting their concern about Muslim Nazi terrorists above their concern for millions of truly innocent people. "He who is merciful to the cruel is destined to be cruel to the merciful".

The comparisons here with what the Nazis did shows what a pitiful generation we live in. Torturing Muslim Nazi terrorists is the same as torturing Jewish women and children? What a grotesque comparison!

***************************************************************************************

And now back to what Chaim wrote to me in his e-mail:

As far as what happened in ancient Egypt, permit me to correct the record.

There is just one line in the vast Talmud that says that the angels wanted to sing a song of praise to G-d and He told them, "I am destroying My creation and you want to sing a song of praise?"

The "politically correct" Jews claim that G-d was telling the angels not to celebrate the drowning of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea. These Jews have seized upon this single line to completely distort Torah Judaism.

BUT SOME RABBIS HAVE SAID THAT THIS QUOTE DOES NOT EVEN REFER TO THE DROWNING OF THE EGYPTIANS IN THE RED SEA. And this one line is hotly disputed and goes against the vast collection of Torah sources that PRAISE G-d's destruction of the Egyptian army. Furthermore, even if this was referring to the Red Sea drowning of the Egyptian army (which is doubtful), the quote was directed toward angels, not human beings. For human beings, there is no doubt that we are required to CELEBRATE the death of evil and cruel people.

For example, Moses' sister Miriam and all the women of Israel sang a song of praise to G-d in the Torah for His drowning of the Egyptian army. Miriam and all the daughters of Israel danced, sang and celebrated the mass drowning of the Egyptians (Exodus 15:20-21). And the Rabbis placed this famous song of praise to G-d for drowning the Egyptians in the daily prayers of the Jewish people, where it remains to this day.

On the Passover holiday, the Jews are commanded to celebrate and joyfully praise G-d for the Ten Plagues against Egypt. In the Ten Plagues, G-d TORTURED the Egyptians with boils and other severe hardships until the Tenth Plague where G-d killed all of Egypt's first born. In the Bible, Moses and the prophets repeatedly offer joyous praise to G-d for doing this, and on Passover, the Jews are commanded to joyfully celebrate this.

On Purim (the Book of Esther in the Bible), the Jews were commanded by G-d to kill over 70,000 Nazi supporters of Haman who had merely threatened to destroy the Jewish people. The Jews killed all of them and joyously celebrate the event to this day. Jews are commanded to sing, dance, drink, eat and party to celebrate the violent death of their enemies.

But the same Jews who joyously celebrate the death and torture of their wicked enemies, must mourn if even one righteous person is harmed, G-d forbid.

Why? Because Jews must be kind to the kind, and cruel to the cruel. If we do not follow this rule, then we will be kind to the cruel, and cruel to the kind, G-d forbid.

In practical terms, what does this mean?

Those evil beasts who want to murder us deserve to get what they want to do to us. The Muslim Nazi terrorists who torture their hostages deserve to be tortured themselves.

****************************************************************************************

That's the end of Chaim's e-mail. Now my conclusion:

Having said this, this thread is ridiculous because the people of America and Israel do not have the stomach to do this to the Muslim terrorists, and so there will not be experiments on them EVEN THOUGH THEY DESERVE EVERYTHING THAT THEY WOULD DO TO US. But in practical terms, the thread is silly and will never be implemented. Just look at the reaction even from people on our forum.

Cosmo is a very good Jew who did not realize that this thread would cause so much contention. And the other people here are also good people. But we must NEVER allow ourselves to be diverted from the cause of saving America, Israel and Western civilization. Especially over something so utterly irrelevant like this.



 

[newman]

Thankyou Chaim and Jimmy.

That vindicates the position of myself AND Downwithislam.

And Cosmo,

Don't feel bad. The question had to be put. At least we know who's got the bottle for what might need to happen in the future.

[DownwithIslam]

Jimmy you are right. Cosmo is good and did a great thing by starting the thread. It really shows people true colors and where they stand. I can't fathom how someone would get worked up enough to threaten to leave over a thread advocating torture of muslim nazis. Wake up! Do you think that when Chaim takes over Israel, their will not be any mas murder and torturing of muslims. Torture is needed for intelligence purposes to get the muzzies to talk. Believe me that torture will be employed in kahanist Israel. Will you more moderate people be able to stomach that or will you complain then? I am saying publically that just like you don't agree with what me, cosmokramer and newman had to say here, I get just as offended when I see posts telling us to be moral in dealing with the muslims. That is insane, it is immoral to deal morally with the muslims.

[newman]

Cosmo never advocated torture at that.

'Medical experiments' usually applies to flu vaccine testing. The other posters lept to conclusions and got their nickers in a twist.

As for comparisons with mengele(YSV'Z) and the nazis.................

This is the sort of moral equivelence we see on the left. We read their dribble in the papers........"USA as bad as terrorists, IDF as bad as PLO, Cops as bad as gangsters"! Now we're seeing people on this forum claim JTF are as bad as nazis!

People here really need to get a firm idea about who the bad guys are and what needs to be done.

Jimmy, the fact is this forum is being polluted by a certain theology that supposedly requires loving everyone and blessing evil doers. I'm sorry, but it's a fact. That's why we're seeing this level of moral confusion among those who are supposed to be Kahanists. Thread after thread has contained spiritual pollution, anti-Torah and anti-Jewish ideology. I won't mention names here but I'll be happy to if you care to contact me.
It's great to be inclusive......but this is the result. People in senior positions have been allowed to advocate being kind to the cruel. When they are 'checked' and called out, the 'checkers' are reprimanded! Now we are seeing the result. Kahanists are becoming liberals. Hawks are becoming doves.

Sorry to be the messenger, but that's how it is. What do we do from here?

[DownwithIslam]

I think we shoud just disprove the people who see things from a muslim and shvarta perspective. We should do it in a team like fashion.

[Daniel]

Cosmo never advocated torture at that.

'Medical experiments' usually applies to flu vaccine testing. The other posters lept to conclusions and got their nickers in a twist.

As for comparisons with mengele(YSV'Z) and the nazis.................

This is the sort of moral equivelence we see on the left. We read their dribble in the papers........"USA as bad as terrorists, IDF as bad as PLO, Cops as bad as gangsters"! Now we're seeing people on this forum claim JTF are as bad as nazis!

People here really need to get a firm idea about who the bad guys are and what needs to be done.

Jimmy, the fact is this forum is being polluted by a certain theology that supposedly requires loving everyone and blessing evil doers. I'm sorry, but it's a fact. That's why we're seeing this level of moral confusion among those who are supposed to be Kahanists. Thread after thread has contained spiritual pollution, anti-Torah and anti-Jewish ideology. I won't mention names here but I'll be happy to if you care to contact me.
It's great to be inclusive......but this is the result. People in senior positions have been allowed to advocate being kind to the cruel. When they are 'checked' and called out, the 'checkers' are reprimanded! Now we are seeing the result. Kahanists are becoming liberals. Hawks are becoming doves.

Sorry to be the messenger, but that's how it is. What do we do from here?

You keep harping on the "moral equivelence" argument. But what you are doing is engaging in moral relativism by stating that it's okay to do this on one group or people but not on another group.

[newman]

You keep harping on the "moral equivelence" argument. But what you are doing is engaging in moral relativism by stating that it's okay to do this on one group or people but not on another group.

Guess what....................

Torah says it's OK, too.

[Daniel]

This same post appears at the end of the now locked thread on experiments on Muslim terrorists.

I asked Chaim to help me with this response. And so part of this response is from me and part of it is from Chaim's e-mail to me.

Here are my comments:

Now at the very time that Chaim is applying to go back to Israel, we have to have this stupid dispute? This is the moment of truth to determine if we will be able to build a mass movement to save America, Israel and Western civilization. All of this can happen only if we succeed in getting Chaim into Israel so that he can form a political party there. At this critical time, we are having this ridiculous argument?

Threads like this should not be opened on this forum because they can harm JTF. The next time someone starts a thread like this, it should be locked and eliminated immediately.

But having said that, to have any mercy whatsoever on Muslim Nazi terrorists for any reason is completely immoral.

**************************************************************************************

Now here is what Chaim wrote to me in his e-mail:

"He who is merciful to the cruel is destined to be cruel to the merciful" (Midrash Rabbah on Kohelet in the Talmud).

We see how this Talmudic wisdom is proven true over and over again. The same leftists who are merciful to Arab Muslim Nazis in Israel are cruel beyond words to the Muslims' Jewish victims. Those who have pity on Muslim Nazi terrorists ALWAYS wind up being cruel to the millions of Christians, Jews, Hindus and others who have been murdered by the Muslims over the years.

****************************************************************************************

And now I, Jimmy Sullivan, have to interject:

We even see this on this very forum. Chaim Ben Pesach saved over a million Soviet Jews in the 1980s, and if given a chance, might G-d willing be able to save millions of Israeli Jews and American Gentiles from a Muslim holocaust. But instead of having pity on Chaim, and on the millions of Jews and Gentiles that he wants to save from annihilation, there are one or two posters here who said that they are willing to leave the movement because of their concern over a thread about experimenting on Muslim Nazi terrorists or torturing Muslim Nazi terrorists or whatever. If anyone does actually leave because of this, then they are putting their concern about Muslim Nazi terrorists above their concern for millions of truly innocent people. "He who is merciful to the cruel is destined to be cruel to the merciful".

The comparisons here with what the Nazis did shows what a pitiful generation we live in. Torturing Muslim Nazi terrorists is the same as torturing Jewish women and children? What a grotesque comparison!

***************************************************************************************

And now back to what Chaim wrote to me in his e-mail:

As far as what happened in ancient Egypt, permit me to correct the record.

There is just one line in the vast Talmud that says that the angels wanted to sing a song of praise to G-d and He told them, "I am destroying My creation and you want to sing a song of praise?"

The "politically correct" Jews claim that G-d was telling the angels not to celebrate the drowning of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea. These Jews have seized upon this single line to completely distort Torah Judaism.

BUT SOME RABBIS HAVE SAID THAT THIS QUOTE DOES NOT EVEN REFER TO THE DROWNING OF THE EGYPTIANS IN THE RED SEA. And this one line is hotly disputed and goes against the vast collection of Torah sources that PRAISE G-d's destruction of the Egyptian army. Furthermore, even if this was referring to the Red Sea drowning of the Egyptian army (which is doubtful), the quote was directed toward angels, not human beings. For human beings, there is no doubt that we are required to CELEBRATE the death of evil and cruel people.

For example, Moses' sister Miriam and all the women of Israel sang a song of praise to G-d in the Torah for His drowning of the Egyptian army. Miriam and all the daughters of Israel danced, sang and celebrated the mass drowning of the Egyptians (Exodus 15:20-21). And the Rabbis placed this famous song of praise to G-d for drowning the Egyptians in the daily prayers of the Jewish people, where it remains to this day.

On the Passover holiday, the Jews are commanded to celebrate and joyfully praise G-d for the Ten Plagues against Egypt. In the Ten Plagues, G-d TORTURED the Egyptians with boils and other severe hardships until the Tenth Plague where G-d killed all of Egypt's first born. In the Bible, Moses and the prophets repeatedly offer joyous praise to G-d for doing this, and on Passover, the Jews are commanded to joyfully celebrate this.

On Purim (the Book of Esther in the Bible), the Jews were commanded by G-d to kill over 70,000 Nazi supporters of Haman who had merely threatened to destroy the Jewish people. The Jews killed all of them and joyously celebrate the event to this day. Jews are commanded to sing, dance, drink, eat and party to celebrate the violent death of their enemies.

But the same Jews who joyously celebrate the death and torture of their wicked enemies, must mourn if even one righteous person is harmed, G-d forbid.

Why? Because Jews must be kind to the kind, and cruel to the cruel. If we do not follow this rule, then we will be kind to the cruel, and cruel to the kind, G-d forbid.

In practical terms, what does this mean?

Those evil beasts who want to murder us deserve to get what they want to do to us. The Muslim Nazi terrorists who torture their hostages deserve to be tortured themselves.

****************************************************************************************

That's the end of Chaim's e-mail. Now my conclusion:

Having said this, this thread is ridiculous because the people of America and Israel do not have the stomach to do this to the Muslim terrorists, and so there will not be experiments on them EVEN THOUGH THEY DESERVE EVERYTHING THAT THEY WOULD DO TO US. But in practical terms, the thread is silly and will never be implemented. Just look at the reaction even from people on our forum.

Cosmo is a very good Jew who did not realize that this thread would cause so much contention. And the other people here are also good people. But we must NEVER allow ourselves to be diverted from the cause of saving America, Israel and Western civilization. Especially over something so utterly irrelevant like this.



 

This issue here is NOT on whether or not we should have mercy on muslims or to be kind to them. It sounds like you're saying that those of us who are opposed to the idea of forced medical experimentation on muslims are somehow advocating being merciful and kind to them. This is completely false and nothing could be further from the truth!

If medical experimentation is to be performed on anyone, it would only be ethical, proper, and humane only if that person consents to it and if there is some medical benefit. To "force" something like this on someone without their consent or where it serves no medical or scientific benefit defies everything that is even remotely moral and decent.

If torture is to be performed on someone, it should only be done for the purposes of extracting information that a terrorist is withholding, information that needs to be extracted for the purposes of foiling a terrorist plot and saving lives. If torture is done just for the sole purpose of getting our kick, like what was done in Abu Ghraib, then that too contradicts anything that is even remotely ethical, decent, moral, and even human.

So this issue is not about being kind or merciful to the muslims. The issue is about whether or not we should ever engage in a practice that will transform us into the very thing we hate and have sworn to destroy.

[dawntreader]

I stand with Daniel 100% in this.

[newman]

I stand with Daniel 100% in this.

Now there's an endorcement.

[Daniel]

I stand with Daniel 100% in this.

Thank you, Dawn.

[DownwithIslam]

Daniel, I said numerous times that the torture would be used as a threat deterrence and to extract information from the muslims. It would force them to rat out their fellow muzzies.

[Daniel]

Daniel, I said numerous times that the torture would be used as a threat deterrence and to extract information from the muslims. It would force them to rat out their fellow muzzies.

In that case, that would be completely fine. But emulating the behaviors of Joseph Mengele and Abu Ghraib would never be fine, putting aside all moral equivalence arguments.

[newman]

Daniel, I said numerous times that the torture would be used as a threat deterrence and to extract information from the muslims. It would force them to rat out their fellow muzzies.

In that case, that would be completely fine. But emulating the behaviors of Joseph Mengele and Abu Ghraib would never be fine, putting aside all moral equivalence arguments.

Mengele???!!!!

Find the post on Cosmo's thread where ANYBODY advocated THOSE kinds of experiments....I dare you!

You just lept to that conclusion.....admit it.

Ever heard of vaccine tests/experiments done on prisoners? or paid civilians for that matter?

[Daniel]

Daniel, I said numerous times that the torture would be used as a threat deterrence and to extract information from the muslims. It would force them to rat out their fellow muzzies.

In that case, that would be completely fine. But emulating the behaviors of Joseph Mengele and Abu Ghraib would never be fine, putting aside all moral equivalence arguments.

Mengele???!!!!

Find the post on Cosmo's thread where ANYBODY advocated THOSE kinds of experiments....I dare you!

You just lept to that conclusion.....admit it.

Ever heard of vaccine tests/experiments done on prisoners? or paid civilians for that matter?

When medical experimentation is mentioned, those are the first images to come to mind. I apologize if I lept to any false conclusions. But am I the only one whose mind would go to those images at the mention of medical experimentation? If you're talking about consenting civilians getting paid, then that's a completely different issue. I apologize if I leaped to a false conclusion. But perhaps the issue should have been more specifically defined. I think that we might have fallen into the trap of arguing the issue before we clearly defined what the terms of the proposition meant.

[newman]

Daniel, I said numerous times that the torture would be used as a threat deterrence and to extract information from the muslims. It would force them to rat out their fellow muzzies.

In that case, that would be completely fine. But emulating the behaviors of Joseph Mengele and Abu Ghraib would never be fine, putting aside all moral equivalence arguments.

Mengele???!!!!

Find the post on Cosmo's thread where ANYBODY advocated THOSE kinds of experiments....I dare you!

You just lept to that conclusion.....admit it.

Ever heard of vaccine tests/experiments done on prisoners? or paid civilians for that matter?

When medical experimentation is mentioned, those are the first images to come to mind. I apologize if I lept to any false conclusions. But am I the only one whose mind would go to those images at the mention of medical experimentation? If you're talking about consenting civilians getting paid, then that's a completely different issue. I apologize if I leaped to a false conclusion. But perhaps the issue should have been more specifically defined. I think that we might have fallen into the trap of arguing the issue before we clearly defined what the terms of the proposition meant.

Just admit it like a man. You jumped the gun...BIG TIME.

This'll help get your foot out of your mouth:

[Daniel]

Daniel, I said numerous times that the torture would be used as a threat deterrence and to extract information from the muslims. It would force them to rat out their fellow muzzies.

In that case, that would be completely fine. But emulating the behaviors of Joseph Mengele and Abu Ghraib would never be fine, putting aside all moral equivalence arguments.

Mengele???!!!!

Find the post on Cosmo's thread where ANYBODY advocated THOSE kinds of experiments....I dare you!

You just lept to that conclusion.....admit it.

Ever heard of vaccine tests/experiments done on prisoners? or paid civilians for that matter?

When medical experimentation is mentioned, those are the first images to come to mind. I apologize if I lept to any false conclusions. But am I the only one whose mind would go to those images at the mention of medical experimentation? If you're talking about consenting civilians getting paid, then that's a completely different issue. I apologize if I leaped to a false conclusion. But perhaps the issue should have been more specifically defined. I think that we might have fallen into the trap of arguing the issue before we clearly defined what the terms of the proposition meant.

Just admit it like a man. You jumped the gun...BIG TIME.

This'll help get your foot out of your mouth:

mmmffff fffffff

[Mstislav]

You keep harping on the "moral equivelence" argument. But what you are doing is engaging in moral relativism by stating that it's okay to do this on one group or people but not on another group.

Guess what....................

Torah says it's OK, too.

Whereabouts in the Torah is it allowed?

[Joe Schmo]

I'm confused, Jimmy.

You want us not to make posts like this, yet you agree with what the post says? 

[Daniel]

I'm confused, Jimmy.

You want us not to make posts like this, yet you agree with what the post says? 

Excellent point, Scriabin! Once again, so brilliantly stated in so few words

[ftf]

I'm confused, Jimmy.

You want us not to make posts like this, yet you agree with what the post says? 

You do seam to have got the point here, Scriabin, and I think it's a ridiculous double standard. (note, I personally think that carrying out experiments on anyone without their permission is abhorrent)

[Daniel]

I'm confused, Jimmy.

You want us not to make posts like this, yet you agree with what the post says? 

You do seam to have got the point here, Scriabin, and I think it's a ridiculous double standard. (note, I personally think that carrying out experiments on anyone without their permission is abhorrent)

Exactly! No further talmudic discussion is needed on that point.

[newman]

I'm confused, Jimmy.

You want us not to make posts like this, yet you agree with what the post says? 

You do seam to have got the point here, Scriabin, and I think it's a ridiculous double standard. (note, I personally think that carrying out experiments on anyone without their permission is abhorrent)

Exactly! No further talmudic discussion is needed on that point.

That depends on the Rabbi.

[cosmokramer]

I'm confused, Jimmy.

You want us not to make posts like this, yet you agree with what the post says? 

No Scriabin. He was simply saying that if a Muslim kills somebody, or tries to have innocent people killed that they deserve whatever they get. And that is for any evil person.

[jdl4ever]

I also don't understand Jimmy and Chaim's response, it is very fuzzy which is unusual for Chaim.  Do you agree/disagree with Cosmo starting the thread, agree/disagree  with me locking it and do you think all muslims should be experimented on or just the muslim terrorists?