Rabbi Ovadia Yossef's Latest Gaffe

[Lisa]

He said the reason Israeli soldiers were killed in battle is because they were not observant enough:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/27/wrabbi127.xml

And also, consider what he said in the past about the 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust:

Seven years ago, he sparked outrage when he said that the six million Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust did “not die for nothing”, but were the “reincarnation of Jews who had sinned” in previous generations.

Since when did Judaism include the belief in reincarnation? 

[newman]

Since when did Judaism include the belief in reincarnation? 

I stand to be corrected but don't some of the Chasidic people believe in reincarnation?

[OdKahaneChai]

All Jews believe in reincarnation - but it's very complex and different from what we think of as reincarnation.  I would clarify with lubab, though.

[Lisa]

I think some Chasidic Jews do believe in it.  But I don't think mainstream Orthodox Jews do.  I remember an Ask JTF show of a few months back where Chaim said he disagreed with the whole concept of reincarnation because if you get more than one life, you have less incentive to be good and do good deeds.  (Or something to that effect.)

OkKahaneChai, from what I understand, when some Jews speak of reincarnation, don't they mean in metaphorically? For example, when someone's father dies, and their daughter gives birth to a son a few months later. 

[chakma613]

I think some Chasidic Jews do believe in it.  But I don't think mainstream Orthodox Jews do.  I remember an Ask JTF show of a few months back where Chaim said he disagreed with the whole concept of reincarnation because if you get more than one life, you have less incentive to be good and do good deeds.  (Or something to that effect.)

OkKahaneChai, from what I understand, when some Jews speak of reincarnation, don't they mean in metaphorically? For example, when someone's father dies, and their daughter gives birth to a son a few months later. 

That idea is not a Jewish one, as far as I know. If you are a Jew, then I can teach you th concept of reincarnation in kabalistic terms, however, I canot teach that part of Torah to a non-jew, as it is a sin for a Jew to teach a non-jew certain parts of Torah. Please specify if you are Jewish, and I will send you a private message accordingly.
What chaim said may be the shita of the rambam, who was against the idea of reincarnation in any way.

[chakma613]

He said the reason Israeli soldiers were killed in battle is because they were not observant enough:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/27/wrabbi127.xml

And also, consider what he said in the past about the 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust:

Seven years ago, he sparked outrage when he said that the six million Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust did “not die for nothing”, but were the “reincarnation of Jews who had sinned” in previous generations.

Since when did Judaism include the belief in reincarnation? 

I honestly do not know why people here insist on attacking chachamim. What he said has a basis in torah, so before you argue with him based on common sense and morality alien to judaism, pease learn his rationale. I tend to agree that the Jews who die in the army die for a reason - many are not observant in the last, why do you think a Kohein(priest) used to warn the Jews in the times of the torah, that if any of the soldiers had sinned, they should not fight? Because he was afraid that they would die due to the sakanah(danger) of being in combat - it seems obvious to me that you have never learned the Talmud's statement that when a person is in danger, he is judged more severely, and his deeds are weghed, his mrit is calculated, and it is determined by G-d whether or not he wil survive the danger...please, don't pollute the board with your apikorsishe statements and outright kefirah.

[Shlomo]

Please, let's be respectful to Lisa. She is a global moderator and she is Jewish.

While I happen to agree with most of the things you say (for example, I think that criticizing Rabbi Ovadia Yossef is dangerous and will turn a lot of people off to our movement), please handle debates in a respectful manner. I happen to believe in reincarnation but I do not hold malice towards her because she has a disagreement.

We have to have unity if we are going to become an effective mass movement. This type of debate can be very good.

For the record, yes... most Orthodox Jews believe in reincarnation. I happen to think it is a very logical belief even though I know our Christian members have some difficulty with this but remain respectful to us about it.

[chakma613]

Please, let's be respectful to Lisa. She is a global moderator and she is Jewish.

While I happen to agree with most of the things you say (for example, I think that criticizing Rabbi Ovadia Yossef is dangerous and will turn a lot of people off to our movement), please handle debates in a respectful manner. I happen to believe in reincarnation but I do not hold malice towards her because she has a disagreement.

We have to have unity if we are going to become an effective mass movement. This type of debate can be very good.

For the record, yes... most Orthodox Jews believe in reincarnation. I happen to think it is a very logical belief even though I know our Christian members have some difficulty with this but remain respectful to us about it.

I respect those who respect the sages, and gedolim, I see no reason to have respect for a person promoting this fringe nonsense about R'ovadia's wrongfulness.  Anyway, the type of reincarnation that Jews hold to be true has little to do with the actual person coming back, but rather, as whatis known as a gilgul shavua. I do not hold malice as you say because Lisa and I disagree, it is the way in which she presents her opinions as facts that bothers me, she gives me the impression that it's her way or no way, and she seems to not want to listen to torah opinions(see the thread on polygamy when she said something to the effect that her sentiment was her opinion and not the torah's, i was greatly troubled by that)

**DISCLAIMER** - the below is intended for Jews only to read.

Most frum Jews believe that a person has 3 chances to to what is called tikkun - repair - for his soul, for the sins he has accumulated while on this world. Some say that certain greart Rabbis were gilgulim,, or reincarnations, of historical jewish figures. Many have said that a certain great rabbi who lived a few hundred year ago was the gilgul of the great Tanna Rabbi Meir. We also believe that most souls today are recycled, and not original souls made in shomayim. That being said, most of us today are reincarnations of other people, Jews of course. Also, there is a teaching that states that a soul is like a flame, it creates sparks known as nitzutzim, that become independent flames on their own.

[Lisa]

Chaka, when did I ever say it's my way or no way? 

And for the record, I have never go shoving my beliefs down people's throats here.  And yes, I am Jewish. 

[chakma613]

Chaka, when did I ever say it's my way or no way? 

And for the record, I have never go shoving my beliefs down people's throats here.  And yes, I am Jewish. 

Wow, did you just call me chaka? I should hope that was a typo..

Anyway, you didn't say that, but that was the impression you left on me in the other thread, where it semed like you had your own ideas, independent of torah, and you weren't willing to acknowledge the torah's opinion, you also belittled yeshiva students - your writing is very against the charedi establishment. I respect those who respect the torah and its way(s), not those who are scorners of the sages and of yeshiva students.

[Lisa]

Well Chakma613, I have my opinions, (and I did make a typo before) which I think everyone is entitled to.  And they are just that.  Nothing more.  They are in no way binding.

And I have nothing against religious people.  What I am against is people telling me I can't have an opinion. 

[Lisa]

Chakma613, are you saying that no religious Jews have ever died in battle in Israel or elsewhere? 

And isn't it true that in Israel, the left wing non-religious types wiggle their way out of military service, leaving lots of religious Jews serving on the front lines? 

And since you and Jeffguy believe in reincarnation, why do you think Chaim disagreed with the concept in the past.  I remember him saying that if you have more than one life, there is less incentive to be good in your present life if you can "make it up" in your future lives.

[chakma613]

Chakma613, are you saying that no religious Jews have ever died in battle in Israel or elsewhere? 

And isn't it true that in Israel, the left wing non-religious types wiggle their way out of military service, leaving lots of religious Jews serving on the front lines? 

And since you and Jeffguy believe in reincarnation, why do you think Chaim disagreed with the concept in the past.  I remember him saying that if you have more than one life, there is less incentive to be good in your present life if you can "make it up" in your future lives.

Religious Jews die because they are held to one standard, and irreligious ones to another. Hashem punishes tzadikim in this world, so tat they will not be punished in Olam haba.

I do not hold that Chaim is a religious authority, his opinions are his own, but I do not always agree with him. His reasoning sounds like the Rambam's argument, and I respect that, but I do not agree. This idea, that if a person is reincarnated, he will not be as good, is a misconception, since if he knows that he only has 3 chances to do tikkun for his soul, he does not know what number he's on now, and he will be very careful not to damage his soul since if he deos on the 3rd time, the soul can suffer immensely, and one who knows about reincarnation knows this.

[Lisa]

His reasoning sounds like the Rambam's argument, and I respect that, but I do not agree.

So I take it there is more than one opinion regarding reincarnation?

[Ultra Requete]

I think some Chasidic Jews do believe in it.  But I don't think mainstream Orthodox Jews do.  I remember an Ask JTF show of a few months back where Chaim said he disagreed with the whole concept of reincarnation because if you get more than one life, you have less incentive to be good and do good deeds.  (Or something to that effect.)

OkKahaneChai, from what I understand, when some Jews speak of reincarnation, don't they mean in metaphorically? For example, when someone's father dies, and their daughter gives birth to a son a few months later. 

That idea is not a Jewish one, as far as I know. If you are a Jew, then I can teach you th concept of reincarnation in kabalistic terms, however, I canot teach that part of Torah to a non-jew, as it is a sin for a Jew to teach a non-jew certain parts of Torah. Please specify if you are Jewish, and I will send you a private message accordingly.
What chaim said may be the shita of the rambam, who was against the idea of reincarnation in any way.

With all respect to your belives; haw do you plan to hide Torrah from goim if the all Tanath was translated from Hebrew ages ago? Do you mean the "Oral Law"? And where is written that's the sin? I'm just curious.     

[chakma613]

I think some Chasidic Jews do believe in it.  But I don't think mainstream Orthodox Jews do.  I remember an Ask JTF show of a few months back where Chaim said he disagreed with the whole concept of reincarnation because if you get more than one life, you have less incentive to be good and do good deeds.  (Or something to that effect.)

OkKahaneChai, from what I understand, when some Jews speak of reincarnation, don't they mean in metaphorically? For example, when someone's father dies, and their daughter gives birth to a son a few months later. 

That idea is not a Jewish one, as far as I know. If you are a Jew, then I can teach you th concept of reincarnation in kabalistic terms, however, I canot teach that part of Torah to a non-jew, as it is a sin for a Jew to teach a non-jew certain parts of Torah. Please specify if you are Jewish, and I will send you a private message accordingly.
What chaim said may be the shita of the rambam, who was against the idea of reincarnation in any way.

With all respect to your belives; haw do you plan to hide Torrah from goim if the all Tanath was translated from Hebrew ages ago? Do you mean the "Oral Law"? And where is written that's the sin? I'm just curious.     

Yes, I was referring to the oral torah, not the written one. The written one ca be learned by non-jews

[chakma613]

His reasoning sounds like the Rambam's argument, and I respect that, but I do not agree.

So I take it there is more than one opinion regarding reincarnation?

Yes, but rambam is in the minority here - most do not hold like him today.

[OdKahaneChai]

His reasoning sounds like the Rambam's argument, and I respect that, but I do not agree.

So I take it there is more than one opinion regarding reincarnation?

Yes, but rambam is in the minority here - most do not hold like him today.

I didn't know the Rambam didn't believe in reincarnation - in this case I may need to reassess my beliefs on the subject, as when it comes to halachic disputes I usually stick to the Rambam.

[Lubab]

Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?

I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.

Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:


1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".


2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of  Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.

It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.

If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.

Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.

[Lubab]

Anyone who beleives in the validity of books such as the Zohar and Shar Hagilgilium and the writings of the AriZal (teacher of the the author of the Shulchan Aruch-So basically if you believe in the Shulchan Aruch you must hold of the Arizal too) must believe in reincarnation.

The fact that what reincarnation in Judaism is is misunderstood is another story.

Most people think it means a reincanation of the actual person into anther body. If you look in Shar  Hagilgulim where it is explained at length, it really is about a reincarnation of that person's particular mission, which if not fulfilled by him must be fulfilled by someone or something else.

I haven't seen where the Rambam says he does not belive in reincarnation. Can you cite this?
Even if he does say that I would bet he's referring to the popular notions about reincarnation, but not as I described above.

This is not a disencintive, but an incentive for people to get moving and do their mission. When they fulfill their mission fullly in that body, then that body is refined and can be given eternal life.

[chakma613]

Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?

I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.

Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:


1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".


2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of  Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.

It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.

If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.

Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.

I do not agree with your statement that the IDF soldiers are tinok shenishba, they are surrounded by Judaism in Israel, and have many opportunities to learn about it.
I'm sure R' ovadiah has heard of this midrash, so your basically brin presumptuous in insuating that he hasn't. Also, you're putting klal yisroel on the level of Moshe by saying what you said, so you're way out in left field in your comparison.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I honestly do not know why people here insist on attacking chachamim. What he said has a basis in torah, so before you argue with him based on common sense and morality alien to judaism, pease learn his rationale. I tend to agree that the Jews who die in the army die for a reason - many are not observant in the last, why do you think a Kohein(priest) used to warn the Jews in the times of the torah, that if any of the soldiers had sinned, they should not fight? Because he was afraid that they would die due to the sakanah(danger) of being in combat - it seems obvious to me that you have never learned the Talmud's statement that when a person is in danger, he is judged more severely, and his deeds are weghed, his mrit is calculated, and it is determined by G-d whether or not he wil survive the danger...please, don't pollute the board with your apikorsishe statements and outright kefirah.

Look dude, she did not insult him. I must confess to not knowing exactly what you said, but I happen to know that in the Jewish and Christian Bibles it is FORBIDDEN to deify a leader in any way.

I am not sure what you have interpreted to allow that but have repeatedly asked people to post why we are forbidden from criticizing any religious leader and nobody has ever provided verses or passages.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?

I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.

Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:


1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".


2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of  Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.

It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.

If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.

Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.

And I agree with you 100%.

Ovadia Yosef has been mistaken on many things. In addition to the things listed above and that Lisa pointed out just now, how about when he ordered Chaim expelled from Israel, said that Jews should surrender Jerusalem for peace, told his followers that Arafat is his friend, and ruled that we must try to spare all lives (including Arab)?

Chaim and I do not INSULT Yosef, but we do expose his deeds and mistakes.

NONE of what I just said can even remotely be construed as an attack.

If we start forbidding saying anything negative of him or any other rabbi, G-d will judge us for committing idolatry just like worshipping the golden calf.

[chakma613]

I do not agree with your statement that the IDF soldiers are tinok shenishba, they are surrounded by Judaism in Israel, and have many opportunities to learn about it.
I'm sure R' ovadiah has heard of this midrash, so your basically brin presumptuous in insuating that he hasn't. Also, you're putting klal yisroel on the level of Moshe by saying what you said, so you're way out in left field in your comparison.

Excuse me, chakma, but who are you to judge ahenu kol beth Yisrael? You have quite a chutzpa to write such a lashon hara about decent people. Just because there is an opportunity to learn Torah does not mean that a person who was brought up to shun religion will enter a beth midrash. Just because YOU did does not mean that a soldier who goes and sees Hell, and has to deal with the stinking Arab Nazis yemah shemam, and has to have rockets flying above him day in and day out, day in and day out while their generals order them to give the animals HUMANITARIAN AID, will believe in haShem and His Torah in the same way that you and I can in our American comfort zone. You are a nice kid, but people like you make these mistakes all the time and you should take back what you said.

I'm not judging them, I am saying that almost every Jew has the pportunity to learn about Judaism, and he ios t be held responsible for not doing so. Yu do have a point about how army life does not alow a jew to learn much about judaism if he hasnt already. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I just feel that I shoul stand up for R' Ovadiah in a thread thast called his opinion a "gaffe" - that is a negaitve term in itself, and I was disheartened to hear a fellow Jew who belongs to such a great organization saying such things about a gadol hador.

[Lubab]

Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?

I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.

Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:


1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".


2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of  Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.

It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.

If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.

Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.

I do not agree with your statement that the IDF soldiers are tinok shenishba, they are surrounded by Judaism in Israel, and have many opportunities to learn about it.
I'm sure R' ovadiah has heard of this midrash, so your basically brin presumptuous in insuating that he hasn't. Also, you're putting klal yisroel on the level of Moshe by saying what you said, so you're way out in left field in your comparison.

If  you were brought up with the notion that religious people are the source of all problems in the world-do you think that just by living among religious people is a real "opportunity" to come close.

Yes they are surrounded with holy sites and shuls etc. but in their minds they are taught to look with disgust at all of those things.
The Israeli educational system has effectively kidnapped and brainwashed them to think this way.

There are people there ready to teach, but if you were brought up that way would you consider listening to them?

Especially when the religious people put them down on such a regular basis as Rav Yosef just did. Do you think that type of talk will bring those people closer to observance?

I"m not saying everyone is on the level of Moshe Rabbeinu here as my argument (though that is true in a way-Moshe was sincerely humbled in front of all people-especially the generation at the end of the Galut). I'm just saying that at its source-all suffering is a decree from G-d that is above the level of reason.

If G-d has to use suffering as a way to accomplish His goal then you've just made Him into a very limited being.