christians and the torah

[decimos]

my first post  and thread so go easy! ok,im a christian but i do not practise however.i do subscribe to its priciples.Having said that,i believe the jews are the chosen of God,i believe that all muslims are terrorists purely on the basis of what i have seen and heard and the way the spew their crass doctrine.i do not believe you can have moderate muslims.i believe as in the first crusades 1 is happening now! but the thing of it is i have difficulty understanding the guiding principles of your faith,i am a gentile therfore"While the Christians do generally accept the Hebrew Bible as truly from God, many of them (those who accept the so-called divinity of Jesus) are idolaters according to the Torah, punishable by death, and certainly will not enjoy the World to Come.  But it is not just being a member of a denomination in which the majority are believers in the Trinity that is idolatry, but personal idolatrous practice, whatever the individual's affiliation." this excerpt was taken from a translation in the Torah,i dont know if it is true?but is this close?  many christians believe the divinity of jesus which,if that is the case comes in to direct opposition to the torah!.The nazi muslim terrorist also deny the divinity of Christ,putting them in direct opposition with the basic tenet of christian beliefs... some one is right some one is wrong.this is my problem.i believe that the word of God is some where.the talmud is a book that tells the story i think.if a Rabbi would care to help understand i would be thankful.and im interested to learn more about Rabbi Kahane.now with all that said and done if i have misspelt and holy words aor names,im sorry.to the muslims,tough.

[newman]

This may be a start, decimos.

You can also post questions to our Rabbi, Lubab in the Torah and Jewish idea board.

http://www.geocities.com/buddychai/Religion/Jesus.html

[Lisa]

Welcome Decimos.

While Jews don't believe in the divinity of Christ, that is not to say they believe all Christians are idolaters, (sp?)  or that they should be put to death.  As I'm sure you know, Judaism does not believe in getting others to be Jewish.  Gentiles who are righteous and who follow the seven Noahide laws are also promised a place in the world to come. 

Now regarding theology and who is right or wrong, that could be the subject of an entire web site, and that's not for here.  JTF welcomes all good people who want to fight against Islamofacism, multiculturalism and the Left. 

Welcome again.

Lisa

[mosquewatch]

We can ask who is right when the Messiah comes, and ask him "Is this your first or second visit too Israel?" Until then, we both have a common enemy. Lets deal with this first, then when the world is safe, we can argue about "who is right." 

Right now, we have muslims invading, killing, murdering, raping , pillaging any thing they can find that is not islamic. I try to find ways Jews and Christians are in the same mindset. I am a Gentile, that does not believe in spreading my Theology openly with anyone unless they ask me. Besides that, we have google. In this day and age, what's the point of me waving my Bible around like a maniac saying 'Be a Christian!!!"

I think by now, we all understand our different belief systems. That being texted, how many mujahadin were splatted today?

[decimos]

thanks for ur welcome,  some thing u said there was said to me by a girl i was at school with some 20 years ago " Gentiles who are righteous and who follow the seven Noahide laws are also promised a place in the world to come."twice in my life i heard that now,how am i so ignorant ? i will look up the "the 7 laws" i thought i had a handel on religion's but my eyes are opening.thank you.

[mosquewatch]

decimos,

There is nothing wrong with being ignorant, it is only when you refuse to learn that makes it bad. Where are you from ?

[newman]

thanks for ur welcome,  some thing u said there was said to me by a girl i was at school with some 20 years ago " Gentiles who are righteous and who follow the seven Noahide laws are also promised a place in the world to come."twice in my life i heard that now,how am i so ignorant ? i will look up the "the 7 laws" i thought i had a handel on religion's but my eyes are opening.thank you.

Here are some good links regarding the Sheva Mitzvot (7 laws):

http://www.noachidechassid.com/news.php

http://www.geocities.com/~Alyza/noachide/noahrole.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=530158

[chakma613]

Welcome Decimos.

While Jews don't believe in the divinity of Christ, that is not to say they believe all Christians are idolaters, (sp?)  or that they should be put to death.  As I'm sure you know, Judaism does not believe in getting others to be Jewish.  Gentiles who are righteous and who follow the seven Noahide laws are also promised a place in the world to come. 

Now regarding theology and who is right or wrong, that could be the subject of an entire web site, and that's not for here.  JTF welcomes all good people who want to fight against Islamofacism, multiculturalism and the Left. 

Welcome again.

Lisa

Excuse me, please see the Rambam's ruling on christianity, in which, he declares it Avodah Zarah. Those who say that yushke was the moshiach, may not be comitting idolatry, but the trinity is avodah zarah acc. to the rambam.

[ftf]

Welcome Decimos.

While Jews don't believe in the divinity of Christ, that is not to say they believe all Christians are idolaters, (sp?)  or that they should be put to death.  As I'm sure you know, Judaism does not believe in getting others to be Jewish.  Gentiles who are righteous and who follow the seven Noahide laws are also promised a place in the world to come. 

Now regarding theology and who is right or wrong, that could be the subject of an entire web site, and that's not for here.  JTF welcomes all good people who want to fight against Islamofacism, multiculturalism and the Left. 

Welcome again.

Lisa

Excuse me, please see the Rambam's ruling on christianity, in which, he declares it Avodah Zarah. Those who say that yushke was the moshiach, may not be comitting idolatry, but the trinity is avodah zarah acc. to the rambam.

Only because they do not understand it.

[chakma613]

Welcome Decimos.

While Jews don't believe in the divinity of Christ, that is not to say they believe all Christians are idolaters, (sp?)  or that they should be put to death.  As I'm sure you know, Judaism does not believe in getting others to be Jewish.  Gentiles who are righteous and who follow the seven Noahide laws are also promised a place in the world to come. 

Now regarding theology and who is right or wrong, that could be the subject of an entire web site, and that's not for here.  JTF welcomes all good people who want to fight against Islamofacism, multiculturalism and the Left. 

Welcome again.

Lisa

Excuse me, please see the Rambam's ruling on christianity, in which, he declares it Avodah Zarah. Those who say that yushke was the moshiach, may not be comitting idolatry, but the trinity is avodah zarah acc. to the rambam.

Only because they do not understand it.

The Rambam ruled on this matter concerning the divinity of jesus, the ruling may even extedn to his mesiahhood, but I do not know. Either way, mainstream xtianity says that yushke was G-d incarnate, and that is avodah zarah. If your only argument for your belief not being avodah zara is that Jews like Rambam don't understand it, then I rest my case.

[decimos]

Excuse me, please see the Rambam's ruling on christianity, in which, he declares it Avodah Zarah. Those who say that yushke was the moshiach, may not be committing idolatry, but the trinity is avodah zarah acc. to the rambam.end quote...I'm not fluent in Hebrew at all but i can google! but what your saying contradicts its self there.but I'm probably wrong

[decimos]

oh sorry.im from England.

[chakma613]

Excuse me, please see the Rambam's ruling on christianity, in which, he declares it Avodah Zarah. Those who say that yushke was the moshiach, may not be committing idolatry, but the trinity is avodah zarah acc. to the rambam.end quote...I'm not fluent in Hebrew at all but i can google! but what your saying contradicts its self there.but I'm probably wrong

How did what I say contradict itself? I do not understand what you are saying. If it is about the idea that believing in yushke as moshaich may be avodah zarah, i honestly do not know about that, it is a possibility, but certainly ascribing any divinity as g-d incarnate or anything of the sort, is avodah zarah acc. to rambam.

[Lisa]

Chakma613, no one here is disputing what the Rambam said about Christianity.  But from my experience, most Jews do not go around pointing their fingers at Christians and saying "Oh look, there's an idol worshipper.  Let's kill him." 

Also, the topic of the Trinity and whether or not it's Avoda Zara is not appropriate for this forum.  If you want to have a discussion with Decimos, you can private message each other.  But this is Chaim's forum, and he welcomes Christians and all good people here.  We even have at least one Hindu member.  So please keep everything civil. 

[chakma613]

Chakma613, no one here is disputing what the Rambam said about Christianity.  But from my experience, most Jews do not go around pointing their fingers at Christians and saying "Oh look, there's an idol worshipper.  Let's kill him." 

Also, the topic of the Trinity and whether or not it's Avoda Zara is not appropriate for this forum.  If you want to have a discussion with Decimos, you can private message each other.  But this is Chaim's forum, and he welcomes Christians and all good people here.  We even have at least one Hindu member.  So please keep everything civil. 

I'm not attacking christians, I was attacking your statement that xtianity was not idolatry, when in fact it is. You haven't the right to tell someone that what they are doing is ok when it is not, you don't have to say anything, but you certainly cannot tell them falsities like that. I never say to christians that they are idolatrous - i may think it, but i don't attack people. I do however, attack statements like the one you made that stated that xtianity is not avodah zarah.

[mosquewatch]

She is the Mod, she has every right. This peace of filth wants us dead, let us move on.

[decimos]

i can see your point,my problem has been i want to hear the word of God,so far all ive heard is the word of man,a jumbled message made purposly to serve his own agenda,so when i stumbled accros this forum i looked at certain things.the bible the torah the talmud,with the last two i need to look into and i have high hopes of finding the word of god.
on a side issue  does the torah beieve the quran  Avodah Zarah?if the answer is yes ? then why doesnt the jews do to them as they do unto you.

[mosquewatch]

The koran is a bastard book, ripped from the Torah.

[chakma613]

i can see your point,my problem has been i want to hear the word of G-d,so far all ive heard is the word of man,a jumbled message made purposly to serve his own agenda,so when i stumbled accros this forum i looked at certain things.the bible the torah the talmud,with the last two i need to look into and i have high hopes of finding the word of G-d.
on a side issue  does the torah beieve the quran  Avodah Zarah?if the answer is yes ? then why doesnt the jews do to them as they do unto you.

While the koran is a hate book, it is not avodah zarah as ruled by the rambam. BUt think of it this way - mein kompf was not avodah zarah, neither was communism manifesto, both were evil, insidious books that killed hundreds of milions of people - just like the Koran, but it doesn't make it idolatry.

[Lisa]

Chakma613, just as JTF is against people trying to convert Jews, we are also against Jews telling Christians and others, either directly, or via implication that their religion is idolatery (sp?) or that it's wrong in any way. 

For the purpose of this movement, we work with people whose religious beliefs do not always match our own.  That's life.  Decimos seems geniunely interested in our movement.  So I don't think it's appropriate to scare him away by bickering about what is and is not idol worship. 

In other words, if you want to continue pontificating about how Christianity is idol worship, or how no one is allowed to have differing opinions than your beloved rabbis, do so elsewhere. 

Consider this your first and only warning!

[chakma613]

Chakma613, just as JTF is against people trying to convert Jews, we are also against Jews telling Christians and others, either directly, or via implication that their religion is idolatery (sp?) or that it's wrong in any way. 

For the purpose of this movement, we work with people whose religious beliefs do not always match our own.  That's life.  Decimos seems geniunely interested in our movement.  So I don't think it's appropriate to scare him away by bickering about what is and is not idol worship. 

In other words, if you want to continue pontificating about how Christianity is idol worship, or how no one is allowed to have differing opinions than your beloved rabbis, do so elsewhere. 

Consider this your first and only warning!

On the surface, your idea is a good one. However, I canot allow you to spread sheker about torah. You stated that xtianity is not avodah zarah, and I had to correct you, this is my responsibility, and indeed mitzvah. I see nothing wrong with what I said - had you not told the poster in question what tyou told him about xtianity, I would not have said anything.

[chakma613]

Chakma613, just as JTF is against people trying to convert Jews, we are also against Jews telling Christians and others, either directly, or via implication that their religion is idolatery (sp?) or that it's wrong in any way. 

For the purpose of this movement, we work with people whose religious beliefs do not always match our own.  That's life.  Decimos seems geniunely interested in our movement.  So I don't think it's appropriate to scare him away by bickering about what is and is not idol worship. 

In other words, if you want to continue pontificating about how Christianity is idol worship, or how no one is allowed to have differing opinions than your beloved rabbis, do so elsewhere. 

Consider this your first and only warning!

We're in Elul now, just a reminder...

[mosquewatch]

Gotta leave this thread, I'm getting a bit fired up.

[Lisa]

Chakma613,

Chaim Ben Pesach, the owner of this forum, would never in million years tell a Christian that his religion is considered Avoda Zara.  He would very politely explain that Jews are not allowed to believe in the Trinity, and that it should not stop all of us from working together.  Therefore I stand my initial response. 

So if you have a problem with that, you are free to start your own forum, and or blog. 

[decimos]

guys id like to think that something good has come out of my thread.it seems to me that the Torah has been around alot longer than Christian version of beliefs.and i have read the "7-laws"which apply to Jews and gentiles.and if the Torah is the word of god then i need to read it.I'm sick and tired of naziislamists spreading their word by force----they want to kill all Jews and gentiles their stinking prophet{my arse} decrees it.i will not sit by and allow any of my children force fed that filth.Ive already had trouble with it at my sons school.i pulled him out of religious education when they started to study Islam! i told the headmaster that my son has no interest in Islam therefore would not benefit him,however once studies of Christians and the Jews began,he would attend..to my suprise he smiled and gave him 3 days excusal from RE.not alone i thought
but the spread of Islam is real.it has to be stopped.but i need clear direction maybe the Torah will give it to me.thats all i wanted to ask and say.and no body is coercing me to do any thing except god will perhaps..damn I'm confused