Are laws to be 'fulfilled' or followed?

[newman]

ARE  LAWS  TO  BE  FULFILLED  OR  FOLLOWED?

It is claimed by some that Jews no longer have to follow the 613 Mitzvot of their fathers because the Mitzvot were fulfilled by somebody for them. It's an interesting concept (to say the least). Fulfilling laws as opposed to following them.
Let's apply the concept a bit further and see where it takes us.

I feel the traffic laws are too hard to follow. Let's face it, we can't go six weeks without getting a ticket for something. Damn government ripping fines out of us left and right. Instead of following the traffic laws, let's have somebody fulfill them for us and relieve us all of the burdon.

I propose the following:

1/ Find an exemplary driver. I'm thinking of one of those pain in the @ss, extra careful, anally retentive, "been driving 30 years & never had an accident", Volvo driver types.

2/ Have him drive in a perfect fashion without bteaking a single traffic code for 6 months or a year and fulfill the laws on our behalf.

3/ Once the laws are fulfilled, we'll be relieved of the heavy yoke and free to jump in the Trans Am, Cadillac or Toyota and go peddle-to-the-metal, ignore traffic lights, stop signs and all other signals and we can do away with the traffic laws altogether as they've been 'fulfilled'. We can also do away with traffic cops and the Highway Patrol.

And here's a big bonus:

Just so we won't have to pay for any of our previous traffic violations or any that we may do in the future, let's take that Volvo driver who 'fulfilled' the laws and put a bullet in his head.

[deleted] attone for OUR 'sins of the blacktop'. Why should we be guilty? When we go through a school zone at 110 mph, bombed out of our brains on tequila it won't matter. As long as we believe in that poor Volvo driving 'goodie two shoes' we won't be penalised.


So I ask again...............

ARE  LAWS  TO  BE  FULFILLED  OR  FOLLOWED?

[OdKahaneChai]

Nice one newman. 

[newman]

Nice one newman.  Let's just hope the missionary doesn't ban you...

1/ He doesn't have the authority.

2/ There are no grounds. My post is a genuine philosophical question and a reinforcement of Torah belief. It is entirely appropriate for this particular board. Members are of equal value here. Theologies are not.

[Shlomo]

Newman, please be respectful to our Christian members. While I understand where you are coming from, we have to be careful not to word things in a way that

#1) comes off sounding disrespectful to Christians on the forums

#2) does not use cursing or inappropriate language to disrespect the Torah, G-d forbid.

"Nivil peh" - "filthy mouth" is one of the confessions on Yom Kipur and is seen as a sin. The Rambam speaks about it in his Hilchois Deos. Most editions will give you the Talmudic sources if you need them. There is a lot in the Torah about Guard Your Mouth.

You have been more and more vocal against our Christian members and I would like you to back off. I would also like you to clean up your lewd or suggestive speech on the forum. This is a warning. I cannot allow this.

I would, respectfully, like to respond to this from a Christian perspective.

Please allow me to post a disclaimer. I am not a Christian. I have studied Christianity for many years because I have Christian family members. These arguments have been thoroughly debated with many knowledgeable and educated Christians from the lifelong practitioner to the full fledged minister and pastor.

Let me begin. Jesus said:

Mathew 5:17
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Are heaven and earth still here? I believe so. I do not think we would be alive and under these same rules if heaven and earth did not exist. Whatever "fulfill" means, it does NOT mean to do away with. Further evidence is provided here:

Psalm 119:88
89 Your word, O LORD, is eternal;
it stands firm in the heavens.
90 Your faithfulness continues through ALL generations;
you established the earth, and it endures.
91 Your laws endure to this day,
for all things serve you.
92 If your law had not been my delight,
I would have perished in my affliction.
93 I will never forget your precepts,
for by them you have preserved my life.
94 Save me, for I am yours;
I have sought out your precepts.
95 The wicked are waiting to destroy me,
but I will ponder your statutes.
96 To all perfection I see a limit;
but your commands are boundless.

Obviously, G-d is not constrained by the limits of time and space. If G-d says "Eternal", then you better believe it means forever in the human sense.

Why would Hebrews be so harsh and push for the obeying G-d and then Romans is so simple and almost seems to teach AGAINST following the 613 Jewish laws? Simple, because Romans was written for Romans who are gentiles and are not supposed to follow (nor were they ever supposed to follow) the 613 commandments. Hebrews was written for Hebrews (Jews) who are supposed to follow the 613 mitzvot as an eternal covenant and therefore were never "off the hook" so to speak.

The problem is made many times by applying all of Paul's letters to all audiences and this is, clearly, a mistake. Oversimplification and a lack of education of the Tanach (Christians would know this to be the "Tanach") would cause these difficulties. If you do not understand the foundation, then errors like this become more common.

Lastly, if Jesus was supposed to be sinless, by what "standard" was he sinless? The "New Testament" had not been written yet. Obviously, he would have to go by the 613 laws in the Torah. For example, why would you need to dunk people in water (mikvah), keep the Sabbath (and he did keep the Sabbath against the argument of healing on the Sabbath which would be allowed if to save human life), teach in synagogue, or all the others to be obedient to G-d if the New Testament hasn't been written yet? If Jesus didn't die on the cross yet (i.e. for himself), then even if you believe in replacement theology, he would have to go by the commandments that his Father had already laid out. This is only reasonable.

Again, I am not a Christian so I do not believe in this theology. I would, simply, like to provide an argument that, even from a Christians perspective, Jesus did not come to do away with G-d's commandments. I'm not sure what "fulfill" means, but it does not mean a license to sin against G-d's perfect Torah.

I would also like to state that I care deeply for our Christians members and that you are important to us. I hope that we can all be an example of what it's like when we can come together for a common (and awesome) goal.

[kahaneloyalist]

I will only say this, when we come to power in Israel missionaries will be beheaded, and I am not being figurative.

[ftf]

I will only say this, when we come to power in Israel missionaries will be beheaded, and I am not being figurative.

You would respond to words with death?

If you don't agree with what someone is saying, debate with them, if they are wrong prove it to them, if you would kill someone for talking about their beliefs, you are as bad as the muslims. My grandfather used to be a missionary, not in Israel, but he was a missionary, you have just told me you would aspire to murder my grandfather, all I can say is that I will pray that you cease to be the evil person that you appear to be.

[OdKahaneChai]

I will only say this, when we come to power in Israel missionaries will be beheaded, and I am not being figurative.

You would respond to words with death?

If you don't agree with what someone is saying, debate with them, if they are wrong prove it to them, if you would kill someone for talking about their beliefs, you are as bad as the muslims. My grandfather used to be a missionary, not in Israel, but he was a missionary, you have just told me you would aspire to murder my grandfather, all I can say is that I will pray that you cease to be the evil person that you appear to be.

As long as he's not missionizing (and no, I don't care if that's not a word) to Jews I could care less.  But missionaries in Israel, who do you think they're missionizing to?  And yes, they do deserve to die.

[ftf]

I will only say this, when we come to power in Israel missionaries will be beheaded, and I am not being figurative.

You would respond to words with death?

If you don't agree with what someone is saying, debate with them, if they are wrong prove it to them, if you would kill someone for talking about their beliefs, you are as bad as the muslims. My grandfather used to be a missionary, not in Israel, but he was a missionary, you have just told me you would aspire to murder my grandfather, all I can say is that I will pray that you cease to be the evil person that you appear to be.

As long as he's not missionizing (and no, I don't care if that's not a word) to Jews I could care less.  But missionaries in Israel, who do you think they're missionizing to?  And yes, they do deserve to die.

Tell me, why do they deserve to die? If they are wrong in what they are saying prove them wrong and they will stop saying it, the idea of executing them seams to suggest that you are afraid of what they are saying.

[OdKahaneChai]

I will only say this, when we come to power in Israel missionaries will be beheaded, and I am not being figurative.

You would respond to words with death?

If you don't agree with what someone is saying, debate with them, if they are wrong prove it to them, if you would kill someone for talking about their beliefs, you are as bad as the muslims. My grandfather used to be a missionary, not in Israel, but he was a missionary, you have just told me you would aspire to murder my grandfather, all I can say is that I will pray that you cease to be the evil person that you appear to be.

As long as he's not missionizing (and no, I don't care if that's not a word) to Jews I could care less.  But missionaries in Israel, who do you think they're missionizing to?  And yes, they do deserve to die.

Tell me, why do they deserve to die? If they are wrong in what they are saying prove them wrong and they will stop saying it, the idea of executing them seams to suggest that you are afraid of what they are saying.

They're attempting (and often succeeding) to murder Jews spiritually.  Death is a reasonable punishment for murder, is it not?

[ftf]

DanBenNoah: No christian will ever even suggest that any God exists but Hashem.

OdKahaneChai: If becoming a christian is spiritual death, it would mean that I am spiritually dead, last I checked I was still alive, well, happy, and in possession of a good relationship with God.

[OdKahaneChai]

DanBenNoah: No christian will ever even suggest that any G-d exists but Hashem.

OdKahaneChai: If becoming a christian is spiritual death, it would mean that I am spiritually dead, last I checked I was still alive, well, happy, and in possession of a good relationship with G-d.

For a Jew it certainly is.  Tell me ftf, have you ever been Jewish?

[ftf]

DanBenNoah: No christian will ever even suggest that any G-d exists but Hashem.

OdKahaneChai: If becoming a christian is spiritual death, it would mean that I am spiritually dead, last I checked I was still alive, well, happy, and in possession of a good relationship with G-d.

For a Jew it certainly is.  Tell me ftf, have you ever been Jewish?

Born and raised christian, but if you're talking about bloodlines, my mother's mother's mother was Jewish (she died in a nazi gas chamber)

If it is spiritual death for a Jew to become a christian it means that Christianity is a false religion, all of the first Christian's were Jews, in fact it weas a major departure to preach Christianity to gentiles, there was (for a very short period of time) an argument amoung the apostles over whether gentiles deserved to learn the christian message, some wanted it and thwe happiness that went with it to be kept strictly for Jews, I could go on, but I don't see the point.

I'll just leave it bluntly, if you are right, christianity is a load of rubbish. And I will not accept that idea, not for a second, I have felt the presence of G-d, I know the religion I follow to be the truth.

(I'm sorry Jeffguy, but about some things I cannot stand idly by, I would rather be banned than not respond in this circumstance.)

[OdKahaneChai]

DanBenNoah: No christian will ever even suggest that any G-d exists but Hashem.

OdKahaneChai: If becoming a christian is spiritual death, it would mean that I am spiritually dead, last I checked I was still alive, well, happy, and in possession of a good relationship with G-d.

For a Jew it certainly is.  Tell me ftf, have you ever been Jewish?

Born and raised christian, but if you're talking about bloodlines, my mother's mother's mother was Jewish (she died in a nazi gas chamber)

If it is spiritual death for a Jew to become a christian it means that Christianity is a false religion, all of the first Christian's were Jews, in fact it weas a major departure to preach Christianity to gentiles, there was (for a very short period of time) an argument amoung the apostles over whether gentiles deserved to learn the christian message, some wanted it and thwe happiness that went with it to be kept strictly for Jews, I could go on, but I don't see the point.

I'll just leave it bluntly, if you are right, christianity is a load of rubbish. And I will not accept that idea, not for a second, I have felt the presence of G-d, I know the religion I follow to be the truth.

(I'm sorry Jeffguy, but about some things I cannot stand idly by, I would rather be banned than not respond in this circumstance.)

Well then, technically, you are Jewish - this is even sadder.

Now, let me make this very clear - it is spiritual death for a Jew to convert to any other religion!  If Buddhists sent missionaries to Israel to try to convert Jews, they would deserve to die too.  But they don't.  Any missionary from any religion who goes to Israel to try to convert Jews deserves to die.

[ftf]

In your opinion.

[OdKahaneChai]

Of course - and in Judaism's as well.

[Shlomo]

Hey hey hey... Geez... I was only trying to show a logical argument for christians to see that, even from there point of view, Jewish people have to obey the Torah. That's all. Nothing more. Why all this? Come on...

No more fighting about this stuff. No one is trying to convert anyone.

[Lubab]

DanBenNoah: No christian will ever even suggest that any G-d exists but Hashem.

OdKahaneChai: If becoming a christian is spiritual death, it would mean that I am spiritually dead, last I checked I was still alive, well, happy, and in possession of a good relationship with G-d.

Worse than a regular sickness, is a sickness that's so developed that the person doesn't even know he's sick anymore.