FOR THOSE OF YOU IN COLLEGE RIGHT NOW

[Daniel]

Of course I would feel the same way about anyone who drops out of school for that reason.  I just have a feeling that most black drop outs of school either just have a "screw this" mentality or don't want to even try in high school because of past failures in their academics so they just give up.  Of course this is the case with many white drop-outs as well but I just feel that there is a greater proportion of whites who drop out in a more conscious way because they refuse to go along with the educational status quo.  Of course everyone who drops out has a screw this mentality but what I'm trying to say is that most whites have a more conscious screw this mentality.  Go ask a typical black why he dropped out and he'll give you an answer along the lines of, oh school, screw that, that's not cool, why go to school when I can join a gang and deal drugs instead, whereas if you talk to the average white drop-out and ask him why he dropped out he'll be more likely to say that he didn't see the point because what they learn about isn't relevant to the real world.  Of course at the end of the day it doesn't really make a difference, they're all high school drop outs anyway. 

You're proving my point exactly. You're making a lot of presumptions and generilizations. A drop-out is a drop-out regardless of color. There is no difference in the motivations and the issues which drive people to drop out of school. It's not like guidance counselors have certain issues in order to prevent whites from dropping out that are any different from preventing blacks from dropping out. The issues are exactly the same across the board regardless of race.

[Daniel]

Its not informed if someone implies that a black hasn't graduated just because they are black. I graduated high school 15 years ago.

This is typical Erica.

You quote a statistic or observation about blacks as a whole and she responds with..."But I don't" or "But I didn't"....it's annoying but get used to it as we can't seem to explain the concept of collective versus individual.

Um, Newman, you are the biggest violator of not being able to understand the concept of collective versus individual. You constantly generalize and stereotype the entire black race based on individual scenarious and think your conclusions are sound and accurate. Yet if someone points out a positive individual experience and scenario, all of a sudden, you have a complete understanding of the concept of collective versus individual. This is nothing more than selective reasoning.

No.

I generalise based on statistics, observation and common knowledge. When you wake up to yourself and become a conservative and are no longer confused by your liberal upbringing, you'll see things as clearly as I do.

This is not about conservative versus liberal. It's about reality versus fantasy and being consistent about it. You are engaging in double standards and just absolute hypocrisy.

No i'm not.

When the majority of group A act the same as the majority of group B, I'll be critical of both.

What "majority" are you talking about? Where do you get your intelligence from other than your own head? You think that using examples of blacks hanging out on the street in Bed Sty and Harlem proves a majority of blacks behave this way. But when Erica demonstrates that she's not this way and that she's actually smart, then you claim that you can't generalize from just this one person. C'mon Newman, you can't have it both ways now. Be consistent.

[newman]

What "majority" are you talking about? Where do you get your intelligence from other than your own head? You think that using examples of blacks hanging out on the street in Bed Sty and Harlem proves a majority of blacks behave this way. But when Erica demonstrates that she's not this way and that she's actually smart, then you claim that you can't generalize from just this one person. C'mon Newman, you can't have it both ways now. Be consistent.

Statistics:

70% of blacks born out of wedlock.

69% of all crime comitted by blacks (only 14% overall population)

Ze'ev might have the stats on what % of blacks have records (it's eally high).

Erica is an exception, as I've said repeatedly.

There's NO inconsistancy.

[Ehud]

No issue is ever 100% exactly the same for two groups of people, EVER!  There are always going to be cultural differences in every single aspect of life, no matter what.  I guess next you're going to tell me that the reason for murder with whites and blacks is EXACTLY the same, or the reason for gang activity between whites and blacks is exactly the same.  There are very different issues concerning why whites and blacks drop out of school.  One is the anti-intellectual nature of many African Americans who think that it is "acting white" to do well in school.  You don't find this phenomenon among white people.  You cannot deny cultural realities and cultural histories that have shaped the way people are today.  If the issues are exactly the same across the board, why do we find disparities in white and black drop-out rates?  Obviously the issues are not exactly the same.  Nothing between two cultures is EVER exactly the same and to assume that they would ever be in any situation fails to look and appreciated the complexity of different cultural realities.

[Daniel]

What "majority" are you talking about? Where do you get your intelligence from other than your own head? You think that using examples of blacks hanging out on the street in Bed Sty and Harlem proves a majority of blacks behave this way. But when Erica demonstrates that she's not this way and that she's actually smart, then you claim that you can't generalize from just this one person. C'mon Newman, you can't have it both ways now. Be consistent.

Statistics:

70% of blacks born out of wedlock.

69% of all crime comitted by blacks (only 14% overall population)

Ze'ev might have the stats on what % of blacks have records (it's eally high).

Erica is an exception, as I've said repeatedly.

There's NO inconsistancy.

Erica is NOT the exception! Most black people that I have encountered in my life are exactly like Erica. The exceptions come from the examples you use to make false generalizations.

[newman]

Erica is NOT the exception! Most black people that I have encountered in my life are exactly like Erica. The exceptions come from the examples you use to make false generalizations.

If that was the case, then majority black neighbourhoods would be fit to live in. But they AINT. They're HELLHOLES because ones like ERICA are a MINORITY.

Ze'ev, please find those stats.

[Erica]

What "majority" are you talking about? Where do you get your intelligence from other than your own head? You think that using examples of blacks hanging out on the street in Bed Sty and Harlem proves a majority of blacks behave this way. But when Erica demonstrates that she's not this way and that she's actually smart, then you claim that you can't generalize from just this one person. C'mon Newman, you can't have it both ways now. Be consistent.

Statistics:

70% of blacks born out of wedlock.

69% of all crime comitted by blacks (only 14% overall population)

Ze'ev might have the stats on what % of blacks have records (it's eally high).

Erica is an exception, as I've said repeatedly.

There's NO inconsistancy.

Newman, I'm not the only exception in America. There are many blacks like me. The only ones you see, sadly, are the ones on the news or in the chronicles you read in the morning. You've never gotten out among black people to see what the truth is. You love assuming because its like a game to you. You seek to get rid of the black race in schools, but think of yourself as the 'exception' to white people everywhere because you're supposedly "level-headed" and "above reproach" but you're just another drop-out. No better than ANYONE who drops out of high school because they're bored. BIG FREAKIN DEAL! You apparently think you were brought into this world knowing what's on the minds of everyone you pass or pass judgment on, when you don't know ANYTHING for sure (but what you read in statistics). I wonder if statistics are done to compare idiot-racists to level-headed, tolerant people. Hmmmm....

[Daniel]

No issue is ever 100% exactly the same for two groups of people, EVER!  There are always going to be cultural differences in every single aspect of life, no matter what.  I guess next you're going to tell me that the reason for murder with whites and blacks is EXACTLY the same, or the reason for gang activity between whites and blacks is exactly the same.  There are very different issues concerning why whites and blacks drop out of school.  One is the anti-intellectual nature of many African Americans who think that it is "acting white" to do well in school.  You don't find this phenomenon among white people.  You cannot deny cultural realities and cultural histories that have shaped the way people are today.  If the issues are exactly the same across the board, why do we find disparities in white and black drop-out rates?  Obviously the issues are not exactly the same.  Nothing between two cultures is EVER exactly the same and to assume that they would ever be in any situation fails to look and appreciated the complexity of different cultural realities.

We're talking two different issues here. One is the disparity between the number of blacks who drop out versus the number of whites who do the same. There is no disagreement there. But what you're doing here is taking something where two different people behave the same and presuming that the root cause is different and then stating that the disparity between white and black drop-out rates somehow proves that there are different cultural reasons why both a black and white person would drop out of school. That's really confusing the issue.

The Boston Red Sox have won the most games this year so far while the Tampa Bay Rays have won the least number of games. So when the Rays win their games, does that mean that there are different causal factors from when the Red Sox win their games?

[Daniel]

What "majority" are you talking about? Where do you get your intelligence from other than your own head? You think that using examples of blacks hanging out on the street in Bed Sty and Harlem proves a majority of blacks behave this way. But when Erica demonstrates that she's not this way and that she's actually smart, then you claim that you can't generalize from just this one person. C'mon Newman, you can't have it both ways now. Be consistent.

Statistics:

70% of blacks born out of wedlock.

69% of all crime comitted by blacks (only 14% overall population)

Ze'ev might have the stats on what % of blacks have records (it's eally high).

Erica is an exception, as I've said repeatedly.

There's NO inconsistancy.

Newman, I'm not the only exception in America. There are many blacks like me. The only ones you see, sadly, are the ones on the news or in the chronicles you read in the morning. You've never gotten out among black people to see what the truth is. You love assuming because its like a game to you. You seek to get rid of the black race in schools, but think of yourself as the 'exception' to white people everywhere because you're supposedly "level-headed" and "above reproach" but you're just another drop-out. No better than ANYONE who drops out of high school because they're bored. BIG FREAKIN DEAL! You apparently think you were brought into this world knowing what's on the minds of everyone you pass or pass judgment on, when you don't know ANYTHING for sure (but what you read in statistics). I wonder if statistics are done to compare idiot-racists to level-headed, tolerant people. Hmmmm....

Thanks Erica. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Blacks like you don't make the news (except for on here perhaps ). But those that make the news are the exceptions. But Newman and people like him like to believe that what they see on the news makes up the majority of a people. It's complete BS. You are the rule and certainly not the exception.

[newman]

Hmmmm....

Who be typin' in ebonics now?

[Erica]

What "majority" are you talking about? Where do you get your intelligence from other than your own head? You think that using examples of blacks hanging out on the street in Bed Sty and Harlem proves a majority of blacks behave this way. But when Erica demonstrates that she's not this way and that she's actually smart, then you claim that you can't generalize from just this one person. C'mon Newman, you can't have it both ways now. Be consistent.

Statistics:

70% of blacks born out of wedlock.

69% of all crime comitted by blacks (only 14% overall population)

Ze'ev might have the stats on what % of blacks have records (it's eally high).

Erica is an exception, as I've said repeatedly.

There's NO inconsistancy.

Newman, I'm not the only exception in America. There are many blacks like me. The only ones you see, sadly, are the ones on the news or in the chronicles you read in the morning. You've never gotten out among black people to see what the truth is. You love assuming because its like a game to you. You seek to get rid of the black race in schools, but think of yourself as the 'exception' to white people everywhere because you're supposedly "level-headed" and "above reproach" but you're just another drop-out. No better than ANYONE who drops out of high school because they're bored. BIG FREAKIN DEAL! You apparently think you were brought into this world knowing what's on the minds of everyone you pass or pass judgment on, when you don't know ANYTHING for sure (but what you read in statistics). I wonder if statistics are done to compare idiot-racists to level-headed, tolerant people. Hmmmm....

Thanks Erica. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Blacks like you don't make the news (except for on here perhaps ). But those that make the news are the exceptions. But Newman and people like him like to believe that what they see on the news makes up the majority of a people. It's complete BS. You are the rule and certainly not the exception.

lol In that  case, here in California, I could *assume* that everytime I saw a white person doing something bad in the news, represents the entire faction of white people in America. lol I'm glad I'm not as fickle as Newman is.

[Ehud]

I would say it's very level headed to look at reality backed up with mountains of evidence and then drawing conclusions based on that.  What is Newman or I saying that is so racist that has no basis in reality?  You're taking both of our statements and wildly taking them out of proportion like Newman and I are saying that every black person is this way or that way.  When newman talks about ghettos with majority blacks, he correctly calls them hell-holes and correctly points out that they are infested with criminals.  Why is this a racist thing to say?  Why is it level headed to deny reality?

When we say that blacks are a criminal society, we don't need to show that 100% of blacks are criminals, we just need to show that there is a severe criminal problem that is more pronounced among blacks than anyone else.  If that is 30% of the population, 40% of the population, so be it, the exact numbers are inconsequential.

When we say that blacks are a society that produces illegitimate children, we don't need to show that 100% of blacks do this, again, we just need to show that it is a problem among blacks more than it is among anyone else, and that it is a particularly black problem, which it is.  The severity of these things are unique to black communities, so it is fair game to point them out in generalized fashions. 

It's just that whenever you see one of these broad and vague statements, you instantly go into black reactionary mode, immediately believing that we mean every single black person.  Your common defense of how you are different than what we say is an example of this.

Whenever there is a feature of the black community that is 1) disproportionate to blacks 2) recognized as a "black problem" 3) that's pervasiveness is unique to the black community, I'm going to recognize that as a component of the black community.  Of course it doesn't have to even be a problem with the majority of people.

When we point out anti-Semitism among Polish people for example, we don't need to prove that every single Polish person is an anti-Semite, we just need to point to the uniqueness of the problem to Poland, the pervasiveness of the problem, and the degree of the problem.

These are the modes that these sort of things are discussed in and indeed when speaking of general habits of cultures and religions, this sort of thinking is commonly used all the time.  Why should it not be used in reference to blacks?

[Ehud]

What "majority" are you talking about? Where do you get your intelligence from other than your own head? You think that using examples of blacks hanging out on the street in Bed Sty and Harlem proves a majority of blacks behave this way. But when Erica demonstrates that she's not this way and that she's actually smart, then you claim that you can't generalize from just this one person. C'mon Newman, you can't have it both ways now. Be consistent.

Statistics:

70% of blacks born out of wedlock.

69% of all crime comitted by blacks (only 14% overall population)

Ze'ev might have the stats on what % of blacks have records (it's eally high).

Erica is an exception, as I've said repeatedly.

There's NO inconsistancy.

Newman, I'm not the only exception in America. There are many blacks like me. The only ones you see, sadly, are the ones on the news or in the chronicles you read in the morning. You've never gotten out among black people to see what the truth is. You love assuming because its like a game to you. You seek to get rid of the black race in schools, but think of yourself as the 'exception' to white people everywhere because you're supposedly "level-headed" and "above reproach" but you're just another drop-out. No better than ANYONE who drops out of high school because they're bored. BIG FREAKIN DEAL! You apparently think you were brought into this world knowing what's on the minds of everyone you pass or pass judgment on, when you don't know ANYTHING for sure (but what you read in statistics). I wonder if statistics are done to compare idiot-racists to level-headed, tolerant people. Hmmmm....

Thanks Erica. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Blacks like you don't make the news (except for on here perhaps ). But those that make the news are the exceptions. But Newman and people like him like to believe that what they see on the news makes up the majority of a people. It's complete BS. You are the rule and certainly not the exception.

lol In that  case, here in California, I could *assume* that everytime I saw a white person doing something bad in the news, represents the entire faction of white people in America. lol I'm glad I'm not as fickle as Newman is.

See here's an example of what I'm saying, this statement of yours shows how you believe we are looking at this issue.  We don't say that the action of one person constitutes the action of an entire people.  This is the frame of thinking that you use in your example.  THe fact that you actually believe that we think that way is sort of ridiculous, I'm actually surprised at it.  Let me make our position clearer, obviously you're making an example of us that is grossly exaggerated.  We think that when we find many many many many examples of something, which is backed up with empirical evidence, we can legitimately claim that as an issue which has a pervasiveness that is unique in severity and degree to that community.  This is how the entire world thinks of ideas and concepts and it is not a new concept to me and newman by any means.

[newman]

lol In that  case, here in California, I could *assume* that everytime I saw a white person doing something bad in the news, represents the entire faction of white people in America. lol I'm glad I'm not as fickle as Newman is.

You'd have to look at statistics, too.

They'd tell you that person was in a tiny minority.

[Ehud]

lol In that  case, here in California, I could *assume* that everytime I saw a white person doing something bad in the news, represents the entire faction of white people in America. lol I'm glad I'm not as fickle as Newman is.

You'd have to look at statistics, too.

They'd tell you that person was in a tiny minority.

See this would be taking an observation and applying it to an entire people while what newman and I are doing is taking many observations, and backing that up with empirical evidence, and then making generalized claims on that.  Surely you can see the difference.

If you can't, there's not much more we can do to help you.

[Erica]

What "majority" are you talking about? Where do you get your intelligence from other than your own head? You think that using examples of blacks hanging out on the street in Bed Sty and Harlem proves a majority of blacks behave this way. But when Erica demonstrates that she's not this way and that she's actually smart, then you claim that you can't generalize from just this one person. C'mon Newman, you can't have it both ways now. Be consistent.

Statistics:

70% of blacks born out of wedlock.

69% of all crime comitted by blacks (only 14% overall population)

Ze'ev might have the stats on what % of blacks have records (it's eally high).

Erica is an exception, as I've said repeatedly.

There's NO inconsistancy.

Newman, I'm not the only exception in America. There are many blacks like me. The only ones you see, sadly, are the ones on the news or in the chronicles you read in the morning. You've never gotten out among black people to see what the truth is. You love assuming because its like a game to you. You seek to get rid of the black race in schools, but think of yourself as the 'exception' to white people everywhere because you're supposedly "level-headed" and "above reproach" but you're just another drop-out. No better than ANYONE who drops out of high school because they're bored. BIG FREAKIN DEAL! You apparently think you were brought into this world knowing what's on the minds of everyone you pass or pass judgment on, when you don't know ANYTHING for sure (but what you read in statistics). I wonder if statistics are done to compare idiot-racists to level-headed, tolerant people. Hmmmm....

Thanks Erica. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Blacks like you don't make the news (except for on here perhaps ). But those that make the news are the exceptions. But Newman and people like him like to believe that what they see on the news makes up the majority of a people. It's complete BS. You are the rule and certainly not the exception.

lol In that  case, here in California, I could *assume* that everytime I saw a white person doing something bad in the news, represents the entire faction of white people in America. lol I'm glad I'm not as fickle as Newman is.

See here's an example of what I'm saying, this statement of yours shows how you believe we are looking at this issue.  We don't say that the action of one person constitutes the action of an entire people.  This is the frame of thinking that you use in your example.  THe fact that you actually believe that we think that way is sort of ridiculous, I'm actually surprised at it.  Let me make our position clearer, obviously you're making an example of us that is grossly exaggerated.  We think that when we find many many many many examples of something, which is backed up with empirical evidence, we can legitimately claim that as an issue which has a pervasiveness that is unique in severity and degree to that community.  This is how the entire world thinks of ideas and concepts and it is not a new concept to me and newman by any means.

Ze'ev, let me explain something to you that you probably missed...

Blacks should be taken out of public schools... NEWMAN

Blacks should not be seen at hospitals.... NEWMAN

How is that NOT a generalization?

I KNOW, coming from where I'm from, that there is a problem in the black community. I KNOW this. I ABHORE the fact that its prevelent. But everytime I make a good suggestion on how to help out, I get bashed and get told that "MY PEOPLE" will never amount to anything. That MY PEOPLE are lazy. You don't really want to hear anyone talk about positive change in the black community. Both of you (and others) just want to revel in the fact that there are problems. I think that sucks, and if I thought the same way about Israel, I'd be booted out of here SO fast because I'd be standing in the way of progress. So check what you write before you click "Post" because what I'm reading are posts full of generalizations and no solutions. No REAL ones anyway.

[newman]

lol In that  case, here in California, I could *assume* that everytime I saw a white person doing something bad in the news, represents the entire faction of white people in America. lol I'm glad I'm not as fickle as Newman is.

You'd have to look at statistics, too.

They'd tell you that person was in a tiny minority.

See this would be taking an observation and applying it to an entire people while what newman and I are doing is taking many observations, and backing that up with empirical evidence, and then making generalized claims on that.  Surely you can see the difference.

If you can't, there's not much more we can do to help you.

Ze'ev,

The arguments of liberals have NEVER been based on reason or empirical evidence.

Their arguments are based on hysterical emotion based on false guilt and a pathological need to create victims.

[Daniel]

lol In that  case, here in California, I could *assume* that everytime I saw a white person doing something bad in the news, represents the entire faction of white people in America. lol I'm glad I'm not as fickle as Newman is.

You'd have to look at statistics, too.

They'd tell you that person was in a tiny minority.

See this would be taking an observation and applying it to an entire people while what newman and I are doing is taking many observations, and backing that up with empirical evidence, and then making generalized claims on that.  Surely you can see the difference.

If you can't, there's not much more we can do to help you.

Ze'ev,

The arguments of liberals have NEVER been based on reason or empirical evidence.

Their arguments are based on hysterical emotion based on false guilt and a pathological need to create victims.

And just where do you get your empircal evidence from?

It seems to me that you're the one basing your arguments on hysterical emotions with no empirical evidence in order to create villians.

[Ehud]

Erica, I would love for there to be solutions, but frankly it's not my job to come up with solutions for other people.  You are right in the fact that we like to revel in the problems of other people, I think that's human nature though.  But that does not mean that these problems are not real.  I think the fact that I will be paying taxes to fund the misguided government's "solutions" to black people's problems and the fact that I don't raise hell with the University admissions council about affirmative action is enough.  The fact that I am willing to pay taxes to fund a crack addict's welfare payments due to her "baby's daddy" leaving her after she got pregnant, and that I'm not marching up to Capitol Hill to raise hell about it is already TOO MUCH to ask of me.  What else should I do, quit school and donate my time to the southern poverty law center? 

I'm not a think tank on helping blacks but I do have many ideas on how to do this.   

Trust me when I say this.  If there was no poverty, no violence, no gun crimes, no murders, no rapes, no robberies, no affirmative action, blacks spoke properly, didn't act like crazed beasts, had good morality, behaved like civilized people, I would be one VERY happy man.

But can you blame me for being cynical about it?

[newman]

And just where do you get your empircal evidence from?

It seems to me that you're the one basing your arguments on hysterical emotions with no empirical evidence in order to create villians.

They usually come from academics, the media and government departments.....all of which are run by liberals.

So before you claim the stats are wrong, consider that they are probably fiddled in favour of minorities as they are. So if anything, the picture for negroes is probably WORSE.

[Erica]

Erica, I would love for there to be solutions, but frankly it's not my job to come up with solutions for other people.  You are right in the fact that we like to revel in the problems of other people, I think that's human nature though.  But that does not mean that these problems are not real.  I think the fact that I will be paying taxes to fund the misguided government's "solutions" to black people's problems and the fact that I don't raise hell with the University admissions council about affirmative action is enough.  The fact that I am willing to pay taxes to fund a crack addict's welfare payments due to her "baby's daddy" leaving her after she got pregnant, and that I'm not marching up to Capitol Hill to raise hell about it is already TOO MUCH to ask of me.  What else should I do, quit school and donate my time to the southern poverty law center? 

I'm not a think tank on helping blacks but I do have many ideas on how to do this.   

Trust me when I say this.  If there was no poverty, no violence, no gun crimes, no murders, no rapes, no robberies, no affirmative action, blacks spoke properly, didn't act like crazed beasts, had good morality, behaved like civilized people, I would be one VERY happy man.

But can you blame me for being cynical about it?

Yes, I can because what you COULD think about besides other people's problems is how to make YOUR life better. My life is already great but I want to contribute more to my community so I'm going to school to become an educator. I believe that's MY calling. It dosen't have to be yours. But at the same time, I don't expect anyone to look at me, blaming me (since they can't see the rest of the black community) for their problems. I didn't take anything from you.

"...blacks spoke properly"... (talk to your buddy, Newman about that one...)
As for the rest on your list of 'black crimes' I can't do anything about the adults, like I said once before...but I can help the children. You don't want to see good happen, turn away like the rest of the system does when blacks are doing something great.

[Ehud]

We're not against helping them (just leave us out of it).  We're for speaking honestly about reality. 

[Erica]

We're not against helping them (just leave us out of it).  We're for speaking honestly about reality. 

If you don't want to have anything to do with lending any financial support to welfare, or other services, let your political leaders know. I can't erase that for you, especially since I'm a tax payer also. When I work, I have to pay for just as many social services as you do. The difference is that I don't care anymore because the services exist for a reason. I'm happy my money's going to help someone. After all, I get it back when I file my taxes.

[newman]

We're not against helping them (just leave us out of it).  We're for speaking honestly about reality. 

If you don't want to have anything to do with lending any financial support to welfare, or other services, let your political leaders know. I can't erase that for you, especially since I'm a tax payer also. When I work, I have to pay for just as many social services as you do. The difference is that I don't care anymore because the services exist for a reason. I'm happy my money's going to help someone. After all, I get it back when I file my taxes.

Giving to the supposed needy should be VOLLUNTARY, not mandated by the government.

[Erica]

We're not against helping them (just leave us out of it).  We're for speaking honestly about reality. 

If you don't want to have anything to do with lending any financial support to welfare, or other services, let your political leaders know. I can't erase that for you, especially since I'm a tax payer also. When I work, I have to pay for just as many social services as you do. The difference is that I don't care anymore because the services exist for a reason. I'm happy my money's going to help someone. After all, I get it back when I file my taxes.

Giving to the supposed needy should be VOLLUNTARY, not mandated by the government.

Speak out against it if you don't like it. This is a free country. Freedom of speech is still noticed here.