Author Topic: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?  (Read 8707 times)

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newman

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A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« on: September 07, 2007, 12:43:08 AM »
The great advantage Judaism has over other faiths (aside from the obvious) is that it has an Oral Law to interpret and explain it's Bible.

It is very difficult to find a clear expansion of the 7 Laws of Noah. Some sources claim 66 (individual) laws, others claim 88. I can't even find these sources by googling. I saw them some time ago.

Does such an expansion and explaination of the Sheva Mitzvot exist and if not, could some Torah schollar please write one?

Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2007, 01:38:38 AM »
As the Sheva Mitzvot were only recently revived there is not much Rabbinic writing on the subject, but  there are Gedolim working on such sefarim now
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Offline decimos

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2007, 06:33:56 AM »
 Since we only know about the Seven Noahide Commandments and all their details through G-d's Torah, a Noahide's reward for acceptance and fulfillment of them as Divine Commandments must be accompanied by faith in the Torah. But if a person lacks this faith, G-d forbid, that does not change his or her accountability for transgression of any of the Seven Noahide Commandments.

In the Oral Torah (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, chapter 7), it is explained that all of these Seven Noahide Commandments are coded within a single verse in Genesis, chapter 2. But first let's start with the five Noahide Commandments which are explicitly found in different verses in the Book of Genesis, and one which is found in Leviticus.

1. Do Not Murder.
The edict against murder is stated in Genesis 9:6: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, among man, his blood shall be shed; for in the image of G-d He made man."

2. Do Not Have Forbidden Sexual Relations.
Five of the six types of relations which are forbidden by G-d to Gentiles are covered in Gen. 2:24: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and cling to his wife and they shall become one flesh." This verse explicitly forbids relations with one's mother, one's father's wife, a wife of another man, another male, and an animal. A Gentile is also forbidden to have relations with his maternal sister, which is learned from Gen. 20:13: "Moreover, she is indeed my sister, my father's daughter, though not my mother's daughter; and she became my wife." (Note that Abraham said this to appease Abimelech. It was actually only figuratively true in his case, since Sarah was the daughter of Abraham's brother. So they had the same paternal grandfather, who people often referred to as "father".) It also was universally accepted that father-daughter relations would be included, as evidenced by the disgrace of Lot after he had relations with his two daughters, following G-d's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19:29-36, and Rashi's explanation of Gen. 20:1). Relations of a female with a female are likewise an abomination to G-d which is included as one of the subjects of the verse Lev. 18:3, which speaks against the immoral practices of the ancient Egyptians and Canaanites, and which Lev. 18:30 refers to as "abominable traditions." About these the Midrash (Sifra) specifies: "A man would marry a man, a woman would marry a woman, and a woman would be married to two men."

3. Do Not Commit Theft.
The prohibition of theft is contained within the permission which G-d granted to Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:16 to eat from the trees of the garden. This implies that if the permission had not been granted, they would have been forbidden to do so, because the property did not belong to them. This applied specifically to the fruit of the Tree of "Knowledge of Good and Evil" which was forbidden for them to take, under penalty of death (Genesis 2:17). This Noahide commandment was cited explicitly by Jacob in Genesis 31:32.

4. Establish Laws and Courts of Justice.
This can be learned from the story of Shechem, Dinah, and the sons of Jacob. In Genesis 34:2 it relates, "Shechem, son of Hamor the Hivvite, the prince of the land, saw her; he took her, and he lay with her, and violated her." His "taking" her against her will was a form of kidnapping, which was forbidden as a type of theft. Since the men of Shechem's city did not convene a court of justice and convict him for his crimes, they failed to obey this commandment and also collectively became accomplices to his crime. Jacob's sons therefore formed a court, convicted them, and executed them.

5. Don't Eat Flesh Taken From a Live Animal.
Adam and Eve were not given permission to kill animals for food, and this remained in effect until after the Flood. G-d permitted the eating of meat for the first time to Noah and his family after they left the Ark, which is why G-d at that time added the seventh commandment, which prohibits the eating of flesh removed from a living animal. This commandment was given to Noah in Genesis 9:4. ("Nevertheless, you may not eat flesh with its life, which is its blood.")

6. Do Not Commit Blasphemy.
Leviticus 24:10-17 relates the incident of a Jew who violated the injunction of Exodus 22:27 and blasphemed in anger, and the Divine edict proclaiming this to be a capital offense. Moreover, it states there "ish ish (any man) who curses his G-d shall bear his sin." Why the double expression of ish ish (literally: a man, a man)? To include all mankind, Jews and Gentiles. This demonstrates that blasphemy thus is prohibited to Gentiles as a capital offense even as it is for Jews. (Sanhedrin 56a)

The source for the remaining law, which prohibits worship of false gods, is explained below.

But first note that the recounting and recording of the Seven Noahide Laws by Moses took place at Mt. Sinai, two days before G-d spoke the Ten Utterances in Ex. 20:1-14. In Exodus 24:3, it says "Moses came [before G-d spoke the Ten Utterances] and told the people all the words of G-d and ALL THE LAWS ..." The words "all the laws" refer to the Seven Noahide Laws and three additional Jewish laws, which the Children of Israel had already been commanded before they arrived at Mt. Sinai. (Moses told this total of 10 laws to the Israelites at Marah, after they crossed through the sea - see Exodus 15:25.) The next verse, Exodus 24:4, states that "Moses wrote all the words of G-d ..." These words were the Book of Genesis, which contains the Noahide Covenant and the Noahide Laws, and the Book of Exodus up to that point. G-d thus commanded the Jewish People at that time to remember the Noahide Laws, to teach them to all the nations of the world for all generations, and to provide for the establishment of Noahide courts in the Land of Israel for those Gentiles who choose to live there.

In the Oral Torah passed down through the Jewish prophets and sages and recorded in the Talmud (Sanhedrin p. 56b), it is explained that all these seven laws given are coded within the verse Gen. 2:16 ("And L-rd G-d commanded to the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may surely eat.") In Hebrew, the verse reads, "Va-y'tzav Havaye Elokim al ha'adom laymor mikol aits hagan achol tochayl." One of the 13 specific rules of authentic Torah exegesis is by a tradition of an analogy between two laws established on the basis of identical Hebrew expressions. The seven laws are coded into Gen. 2:16 as follows, as explained by the Talmudic sage Rabbi Yochanan:

1. The word Elokim is one of the holy divine Names which mean "G-d." But the same word is used in the non-holy plural sense to refer to physical or conceptual idolatries (other "gods"), as in the verse "You shall have no other gods ..." (Ex. 20.3). Thus the statement to Adam in Gen. 2:16 implies that only G-d should be worshipped, but not an idol. According to this, a Gentile is liable for making an idol, even without worshipping it.

[Note: the Talmudic sage Rabbi Yitzchak offered an alternative derivation. He suggested that the word tzav ("command") in the verse points to a prohibition of worship of false gods. The verse would then teach that only G-d, the One True G-d, is the source of all true commandments, and therefore only G-d is to be served. The connection to idolatry is evident from Hosea 5:11: "Ephraim is plundered, shattered by his judgment; for he has willingly followed after their command/tzav" - i.e., the command of idolatrous priests.]

2. The unspoken four-letter Divine name in this verse, transposed to spoken form as Havaye, points to a prohibition against cursing G-d, as evident from Leviticus 24:16. ("And one who pronounces blasphemously the Name of the L-rd/Havaye shall be put to death, the entire assembly shall surely stone him; convert and native alike, when he blasphemes the Name, he shall be put to death." Note: in the painless mode of execution translated from Hebrew as "stoning", the convicted criminal was drugged and thrown to his death from a high tower onto a stone pavement. See Tractate Sanhedrin.)

3. The words al ha'adom ("to the man") point to the prohibition against murder, which is stated in Gen. 9:6 (see above).

4. The prohibition of the six forbidden sexual relations (see above) is pointed to by the word laymor ("saying"), as evident from Jeremiah 3:11 ("Saying/laymor: if a man divorces his wife, and she goes from him and marries another man, can he return to her again? Would that not bring profound guilt upon the land? Yet you have committed adultery with many lovers and would now return to Me - the word of the L-rd.")

5. The prohibition of theft is contained within the general sense of the verse, as explained above.

6. The word va-y'tzav ("He commanded") in the verse points to the requirement for courts of justice, as seen from the similar wording in the verse Gen. 18:19: "For I know him, that he will command ("y'tzaveh") his children and his household after him that they may keep the way of the L-rd, to do righteousness and justice."

[Note: the Talmudic sage Rabbi Yitzchak offered an alternative derivation. He suggested that the commandment to establish laws and courts of justice is pointed to by the word Elokim/G-d, which also means "judges." This is evident from Exodus 22:27, which uses this word to simultaneously prohibit cursing G-d and cursing judges - as explained for example by Maimonides in his Book of the Commandments.]

7. The verse concludes, "you may surely eat" - of the trees of the garden, but not meat removed from a live animal.

Acts 15:19-22 "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren."

Acts 15 shows that the early Gentile believers were given four starter laws, and were to learn the rest of Torah each week in the synagogues. Gentile believers were NOT required to formally convert to Pharisaic Judaism because G-d had already accepted them without them becoming proselytes.

The Four Rules
Notice these four prohibitions don't forbid murder, theft, adultery, lying, etc... that's further proof these four rules were never intended to replace the Torah. These four prohibitions specifically address offensive pagan practices the new believers will have to resist. Without immediate adoption of these four rules, the Jewish believers would be forced to not take meals or socialize with their Gentile brethren. I'd call these four rules 'Torah-lite,' or a 'crash course' in learning their new lifestyle. By observing these four laws, the Gentiles could associate with their Jewish brethren *without* undergoing any conversion, yet still have reached an adequate beginner level of cleanliness and observance in G-d's eyes. And, of course, Gentiles would learn the rest of Torah each week in the synagogue and their spiritual growth would gradually increase.
I hope this helps m8....ty and blessings to LUBAB for helping me on my path...by the way m8 i dont lay claim to be a scholar or any thing but i can share what i have found.
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.Deuteronomy 13:5.

newman

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2007, 06:42:56 AM »
Thanks Decimos.

What I was getting at is that we need a finer Rabbinical interpretation.

EG:

There is split opinion as to what constitutes a wife. Some say if you live with a woman as married you are in fact married. Others say there is no such necessity and as long as sex is not forbidden (incest, homosexuality etc) it's OK. There needs to be a uniform code or people will make up their own.

We all know that it's OK to kill in defense of the innocent, but it needs to spelled out. "Whoever sheds the blood of man, among man, his blood shall be shed; for in the image of G-d He made man." Doesn't really make the difference clear.

At the moment we have religious Jews to guide us but come the day they all make Aliyah, we're on our own.


Offline decimos

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2007, 05:09:30 PM »
Thats a good point Newman,i tried to talk with a Rabbi my nearest 1 is 60 miles away..
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.Deuteronomy 13:5.

Offline q_q_

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2007, 09:20:07 PM »
Thats a good point Newman,i tried to talk with a Rabbi my nearest 1 is 60 miles away..


those that list 66, are saying that the 7 are braoder categories for the 66.
http://www.noahide.com/lawslist.htm

there are books, like 'the rainbow convenant', and 'path of the righteous gentile', I haven't read them.

you may find a good rabbi to talk about this on www.askmoses.com  Some are better than others

newman

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2007, 09:24:47 PM »
Thanks, q_q.

So sex outside wedlock is OK for us gentiles. That's about 500 'sins' I won't have to account for. ;D

Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2007, 09:27:47 PM »
http://asknoah.org/This is a site for Ben Noach who are looking for assistance in following the Sheva Mitzvot
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline decimos

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2007, 05:48:27 PM »
Thanks, q_q.

So sex outside wedlock is OK for us gentiles. That's about 500 'sins' I won't have to account for. ;D

Oh Newman,lol....
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.Deuteronomy 13:5.

newman

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2007, 07:33:40 PM »
Thanks, q_q.

So sex outside wedlock is OK for us gentiles. That's about 500 'sins' I won't have to account for. ;D

Oh Newman,lol....

I stand to be corrected but I honestly can't see a prohibition on it in the Sheva Mitzvot. That's my point about requiring an equivalent of a Talmud.

Offline decimos

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2007, 05:24:12 AM »
lubab can help u there m8,allthough im now "A child of Noah"im not suitable to give you advice on such matters,attach your self to a Rabbi for guidence or a learned  jew as they are a light unto the nations.
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.Deuteronomy 13:5.

Offline Lubab

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2007, 09:13:15 AM »
Newman is right. There is no prohibition for a gentile to have a gentile girlfriend and having sex before marriage.

They should make it clear that they are NOT married so as to avoid the adultery laws.

Still my Rabbi says that these days, when they are ready, gentiles should try to settle down with one woman and get married.

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

newman

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2007, 09:51:59 AM »
Newman is right. There is no prohibition for a gentile to have a gentile girlfriend and having sex before marriage.

They should make it clear that they are NOT married so as to avoid the adultery laws.

Still my Rabbi says that these days, when they are ready, gentiles should try to settle down with one woman and get married.



Any study of society would reveal that marriage is a great institution and the key to both stable families and society.

I'm sure it would be correct to say that the Sheva Mitzvot are not some lofty ideal but a bare minimum like a 9th grade education and a minumum wage job. The more we learn from Jews and the more of their Mitzvot we take on (except those forbiden to us) the more blessings we get. Just like being more educated and working harder.

Offline Lubab

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2007, 10:16:34 AM »
People always say that, but the Sheva Mitzvos are really all that is expected of you. If all the gentiles would follow Moshiach would probably be here.

Yes you can do more, but it's for reward, not because the world needs it are you need it to be saved or anything like that.

However, there is more to those seven laws. For instance, within not worshiping idols, there is an implied obligation to learn about the unity of G-d. That mitzvah alone could keep a gentile busy for a lifetime and much more.

A bunch of gentiles are studying that topic with us at: www.RevealtheEssence.com
and www.RevealtheEssence.com/forum

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

newman

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2007, 10:30:27 AM »


However, there is more to those seven laws. For instance, within not worshiping idols, there is an implied obligation to learn about the unity of G-d. That mitzvah alone could keep a gentile busy for a lifetime and much more.

A bunch of gentiles are studying that topic with us at: www.RevealtheEssence.com
and www.RevealtheEssence.com/forum


That's certainly true. I think it was the RAMBAM himself who said that even after a lifetime of Torah study, the greatest of schollars may only learn .1% of all it contains.

Thanks for the links.

newman

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2007, 11:38:00 PM »
I did hear of a gentile who read in the "Ist Test'" the part where G_d said "I am what I am" and this gentile then thought that Jews worshiped Popeye!

Another reason for a gentiles' Talmud.




Offline decimos

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Re: A 'Talmud' for the goyim?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2007, 04:48:41 PM »
hee  ur nuts
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.Deuteronomy 13:5.