G-d, The Big Bang, non or both?

[HiWarp]

Dexter's poll got me thinking.  Hopefully this poll, too, is clear.

[Dexter]

G-d created the Big Bang, so G-d in other words created the universe 

[Ehud]

This poll is misleading, option one should be "G-d created the Universe through a means other than the big bang."

THe third option should be: "G-d created the Universe through the means of the Big Bang"

[OdKahaneChai]

Oh come on.  On JTF we're getting this "Big Bang" nonsense?

[Ehud]

Explain to us, OdKahaneChai, why the Big Bang is "nonsense".

[Dexter]

Oh come on.  On JTF we're getting this "Big Bang" nonsense?

Why the Big Bang is nonsense ?

[HiWarp]

This poll is misleading, option one should be "G-d created the Universe through a means other than the big bang."

THe third option should be: "G-d created the Universe through the means of the Big Bang"

Yes, of course.  I was trying to be concise.  I have edited the poll to be more clear of the meaning.

[Ehud]

This poll is misleading, option one should be "G-d created the Universe through a means other than the big bang."

THe third option should be: "G-d created the Universe through the means of the Big Bang"

Yes, of course.  I was trying to be concise.  I have edited the poll to be more clear of the meaning.

Thanks HiWarp.  I would like to know what the "none of the above" person believes.

I would also like to know how people don't think G-d created the Universe with a big bang?  Did HaShem create the Universe in its current form?  If he did, why can we look essentially into the past at galaxies and quasars billions of light years away and see that the new Universe was radically different than the Universe of today?

[OdKahaneChai]

Well, first of all, the Bang Theory says that the universe is billions and billions of years old.  The universe is 5,767 (soon to be 5,768 - yesterday was the 5,768th anniversary of the first day of Creation) years old.  There should be no dispute here as far as that.

Second of all, from solely a scientific standpoint I just don't think it makes sense.  That much matter in such an infinitely small space would have such a strong gravitational pull that it would never just break apart like that.  And then there are a lot of other things that just don't add up.  See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Horizon_problem

[MassuhDGoodName]

The "Big-Bang" Theory tends to indicate that G-d must be a White Man!

This is because if G-d was a Black Man, he would have created the universe with The Big Gang-Bang!

[Ehud]

Well, first of all, the Bang Theory says that the universe is billions and billions of years old.  The universe is 5,767 (soon to be 5,768 - yesterday was the 5,768th anniversary of the first day of Creation) years old.  There should be no dispute here as far as that.

Second of all, from solely a scientific standpoint I just don't think it makes sense.  That much matter in such an infinitely small space would have such a strong gravitational pull that it would never just break apart like that.  And then there are a lot of other things that just don't add up.  See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Horizon_problem

The horizon problem is solved with HaShem having infinite power and being able to do that which would be impossible any other way.

[OdKahaneChai]

Exactly!  So then why would He have needed to use the "Big Bang" to create the world?  And you still have the age problem...

[Dexter]

Well, first of all, the Bang Theory says that the universe is billions and billions of years old.  The universe is 5,767 (soon to be 5,768 - yesterday was the 5,768th anniversary of the first day of Creation) years old.  There should be no dispute here as far as that.

Second of all, from solely a scientific standpoint I just don't think it makes sense.  That much matter in such an infinitely small space would have such a strong gravitational pull that it would never just break apart like that.  And then there are a lot of other things that just don't add up.  See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Horizon_problem

5,768 years have past since the creation was OVER, I think that the other 6 "days" were actually 15 bilion years .
You should read the book "The Science of God" (Gerald Schroeder) .

[OdKahaneChai]

Well, first of all, the Bang Theory says that the universe is billions and billions of years old.  The universe is 5,767 (soon to be 5,768 - yesterday was the 5,768th anniversary of the first day of Creation) years old.  There should be no dispute here as far as that.

Second of all, from solely a scientific standpoint I just don't think it makes sense.  That much matter in such an infinitely small space would have such a strong gravitational pull that it would never just break apart like that.  And then there are a lot of other things that just don't add up.  See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Horizon_problem

5,768 years have past since the creation was OVER, I think that the other 6 "days" were actually 15 bilion years .
You should read the book "The Science of G-d" (Gerald Schroeder) .

No - the second day of Rosh Hashanah will be 5,768 years since the end of creation.   And yes I have heard of Gerald Schroeder and I respect his opinion but I simply disagree with him.

[Dexter]

Well, first of all, the Bang Theory says that the universe is billions and billions of years old.  The universe is 5,767 (soon to be 5,768 - yesterday was the 5,768th anniversary of the first day of Creation) years old.  There should be no dispute here as far as that.

Second of all, from solely a scientific standpoint I just don't think it makes sense.  That much matter in such an infinitely small space would have such a strong gravitational pull that it would never just break apart like that.  And then there are a lot of other things that just don't add up.  See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Horizon_problem

5,768 years have past since the creation was OVER, I think that the other 6 "days" were actually 15 bilion years .
You should read the book "The Science of G-d" (Gerald Schroeder) .

No - the second day of Rosh Hashanah will be 5,768 years since the end of creation.   And yes I have heard of Gerald Schroeder and I respect his opinion but I simply disagree with him.

Why ?

[OdKahaneChai]

Well, first of all, the Bang Theory says that the universe is billions and billions of years old.  The universe is 5,767 (soon to be 5,768 - yesterday was the 5,768th anniversary of the first day of Creation) years old.  There should be no dispute here as far as that.

Second of all, from solely a scientific standpoint I just don't think it makes sense.  That much matter in such an infinitely small space would have such a strong gravitational pull that it would never just break apart like that.  And then there are a lot of other things that just don't add up.  See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Horizon_problem

5,768 years have past since the creation was OVER, I think that the other 6 "days" were actually 15 bilion years .
You should read the book "The Science of G-d" (Gerald Schroeder) .

No - the second day of Rosh Hashanah will be 5,768 years since the end of creation.   And yes I have heard of Gerald Schroeder and I respect his opinion but I simply disagree with him.

Why ?

Because the majority of the orthodox community does not agree with him.

[Dexter]

Well, first of all, the Bang Theory says that the universe is billions and billions of years old.  The universe is 5,767 (soon to be 5,768 - yesterday was the 5,768th anniversary of the first day of Creation) years old.  There should be no dispute here as far as that.

Second of all, from solely a scientific standpoint I just don't think it makes sense.  That much matter in such an infinitely small space would have such a strong gravitational pull that it would never just break apart like that.  And then there are a lot of other things that just don't add up.  See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Horizon_problem

5,768 years have past since the creation was OVER, I think that the other 6 "days" were actually 15 bilion years .
You should read the book "The Science of G-d" (Gerald Schroeder) .

No - the second day of Rosh Hashanah will be 5,768 years since the end of creation.   And yes I have heard of Gerald Schroeder and I respect his opinion but I simply disagree with him.

Why ?

Because the majority of the orthodox community does not agree with him.

Here are somee prooves for the big bang :
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html

[TheStore]

If there was a big bang, there was previously nothing. Then, there was something. Creationism and the big bang are esentialy the same, except one happens over a much longer time frame. I believe the universe is 5,768 years old, as the Torah says this is how old the world is. G-d created the universe in a state that we would see as much older than it is to test our faith.

[Rubystars]

The Big Bang is a great theory and one that theists, especially monotheists, should appreciate.

It is one of the very few scientific options for the universe having a definite beginning. Of course, some theories incorporate the Big Bang by claiming multiple Big Bang cycles, or bubbling universes, but that in itself doesn't rule out a Divine hand behind creating these universes.

The fact that there is a definite beginning, at least to our own little bubble or universe, is important to allowing for a creating Deity. A universe that exists infinitely backward in time would not need to be created, you see.

Therefore we should embrace the Big Bang theory if we are to have faith in the supernatural.

[Dexter]

If there was a big bang, there was previously nothing. Then, there was something. Creationism and the big bang are esentialy the same, except one happens over a much longer time frame. I believe the universe is 5,768 years old, as the Torah says this is how old the world is. G-d created the universe in a state that we would see as much older than it is to test our faith.

http://live.psu.edu/story/24915

[Rubystars]

G-d created the universe in a state that we would see as much older than it is to test our faith.

I believe that He would always be truthful, and not create a universe which appeared to be something it was not. If we can not trust our observations of the natural world, and draw meaningful conclusions from those observations, then all science must come to a screeching halt.

[HiWarp]

G-d created the universe in a state that we would see as much older than it is to test our faith.

I believe that He would always be truthful, and not create a universe which appeared to be something it was not. If we can not trust our observations of the natural world, and draw meaningful conclusions from those observations, then all science must come to a screeching halt.

You should never assume that humanity is at a state today to comprehend all that we observe.  There may be things that we can not yet observe or confirm via experimentation as well as things that we can observe but are not yet technologically advanced enough to comprehend.  It does not necessarily mean that G-d is trying to fool us or that science should come to a screeching halt.  If anything, it means that we need to advance science further to understand certain things.

[Rubystars]

You should never assume that humanity is at a state today to comprehend all that we observe. 

Perhaps not, in the same way that the earliest scientists could not begin to mathematically probe the mysteries of black holes or the chemical composition of stars through analyzing their unique spectra. However, we can make observations and we can draw meaningful conclusions from those observations. If further evidences are discovered later which make those conclusions obsolete, then new conclusions accounting for the new evidence must be made and the obsolete ones discarded.

There may be things that we can not yet observe or confirm via experimentation as well as things that we can observe but are not yet technologically advanced enough to comprehend.

Perhaps spirits or the supernatural would fall under this umbrella. Science is designed to study the natural world, or if you prefer, the physical creation itself. It always seeks explanations within physical reality and does not reach beyond it. Science and religion are compatible, but they address different questions. Science may tell us how human beings came to be, but religion tells us what it means to be human.

It does not necessarily mean that G-d is trying to fool us or that science should come to a screeching halt.  If anything, it means that we need to advance science further to understand certain things.

Exactly. If there were no unanswered questions, then we wouldn't need science anyway. Things that scientists do not know yet are good things, they allow us to continue to study and press forward and learn more.

My point was that if the universe is a big lie, or that if it was created to look like it was one age when it's really another, then we can't trust any of our observations.

Example:
You take a ruler out and measure an earthworm, and the earthworm is 5 inches long according to the ruler. Several of your friends use their own rulers, and come to the same conclusion. The earthworm is 5 inches long.

Then some religious person comes along and says "My holy book says earthworms never grow beyond 1 inch. If you're measuring 5 inches, then earthworms must have been created to appear to be 5 inches long in order to test our faith."

That sounds a bit silly right?

That's why I think the "appearance of age" doctrines are so silly.

[HiWarp]

Perhaps spirits or the supernatural would fall under this umbrella. Science is designed to study the natural world, or if you prefer, the physical creation itself. It always seeks explanations within physical reality and does not reach beyond it.

It reaches beyond what we would consider physical reality to realms that are not observable to us to formulate and prove theories mathematically.  Sometimes we are not able to confirm the mathematical proofs with observation, as in the existence of dimensions beyond the three spatial and one temporal that we are aware of.  This does not mean that one day we will not be advanced enough to prove or disprove their existence.

Science and religion are compatible, but they address different questions. Science may tell us how human beings came to be, but religion tells us what it means to be human.

Agreed.