jtf forum working on the Sabbath?

[Dr. Dan]

I pull no punches against anybody using any justification to murder my fellow Jews.  My whole outlook on life stems from the inherent value I put on human life, especially Jewish lives.

and i 100% agree with that.

but when arguing with a fellow Jew, even if you disagreed with him 100%, name calling and rash one liners don't work. Rather, rebuking and sticking with your gun on that rebuke is the way to do it...

If you value human life, then you would value Tzvi's soul much of the same way I was doing on the last few posts to him.  and by valuing life and souls, I don't mean accepting what someone has to say unconditionally...rather, if you really disagree, you rebuke...and you have certainly done that. But putting words in peoples' mouths isn't the right way if you value lives and souls.

[Rivera]

Jeremiah 17 :19-27
hear the word of Hashem, O kings of Judah and all of Judah and all inhabitants of Jerusalem who enter through these gates:Thus said Hashem: Beware for your souls: do not carry a burden on the Sabbath day to bring it into the gates of Jerusalem. And do not bring a burden out from your houses on the Sabbath day:you shall not do any[manner of ]work.Sanctify the Sabbath day as I commanded your forefathers.But they did not listen and did not incline their ear: they stiffened their neck, in order not to hear and in order not to accept rebuke And it shall be that if you truly listen to me-the word of Hashem-not to bring a burden into the gates of the city on the Sabbath day, and to sanctify the Sabbath day, not to do  any [manner of] work on it. then, kings and princes who sit upon the throne of David will enter the gates of this city, riding chariots and horses- they and their officers, the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and this city will be inhabited forever, and [people] will come the cities of Judah and from the environs of Jerusalem, from the land of Benjamin, from the lowland, from the mountain, and from the south , bringing burnt-offerings, peace-offerings, meal -offerings and frankincense, and bringing thanksgiving-offerings to the temple of Hashem. but if you do not listen to me , to sanctify the Sabbath day and not to carry  burden and enter the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will set fire to its gates, which will consume the palaces of Jerusalem and not be extinguished. 

[JewishTeddyBear]

Actually, all I was doing was defending the inherent value of human (especially Jewish) life, as well as the good name of our Jewish religion.  Spreading the idea that somehow the Sabbath is more important than human life, can only serve to give the antisemites still another excuse to hate us, not to mention all the secular Jews looking for an excuse to not immerse themselves in anything Jewish.

[Dr. Dan]

Jeremiah 17 :19-27
hear the word of Hashem, O kings of Judah and all of Judah and all inhabitants of Jerusalem who enter through these gates:Thus said Hashem: Beware for your souls: do not carry a burden on the Sabbath day to bring it into the gates of Jerusalem. And do not bring a burden out from your houses on the Sabbath day:you shall not do any[manner of ]work.Sanctify the Sabbath day as I commanded your forefathers.But they did not listen and did not incline their ear: they stiffened their neck, in order not to hear and in order not to accept rebuke And it shall be that if you truly listen to me-the word of Hashem-not to bring a burden into the gates of the city on the Sabbath day, and to sanctify the Sabbath day, not to do  any [manner of] work on it. then, kings and princes who sit upon the throne of David will enter the gates of this city, riding chariots and horses- they and their officers, the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and this city will be inhabited forever, and [people] will come the cities of Judah and from the environs of Jerusalem, from the land of Benjamin, from the lowland, from the mountain, and from the south , bringing burnt-offerings, peace-offerings, meal -offerings and frankincense, and bringing thanksgiving-offerings to the temple of Hashem. but if you do not listen to me , to sanctify the Sabbath day and not to carry  burden and enter the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will set fire to its gates, which will consume the palaces of Jerusalem and not be extinguished. 

Rivera, there is nothing truer in this quote. But of course we should sanctify Israel, in particular, Jerusalem. I have no arguement with that...but this has nothing to do with comparing not sanctifying shabbat and murdering others.

Secondly, it has nothing to do with using the internet on Shabbat. Howver, one can make an arguement that using the internet is an act of work or lighting a fire by sparking electricty when typing on a keyboard or clicking on a mouse...I say, "eh...if one feels as though clicking on a mouse will tempt them to do work or come to close to barely causing a spark, then don't use the internet on shabbat." I'll accept that and in Israel, I will rely on the Sanhedrin to make a ruling on the matter to, for example, "close internet cafes" which is done already in Jerusalem anyway..

[Dexter]

Would anyone who murdered someone else go on a publc forum and admit that they are a killer? Hey we are all sinners arent we?

You say that violating the Shabbat is like murder ?

yes, maybe worse (in some instances), either way for both the Torah says that they deserve death.

That's really nuts! I would rather violate every sabbath of my life by lighting a fire purposely than to kill an innocent person cold bloodedly!

You can violet the Shabbat if you are fighting for you life .

[Dexter]

Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize. 

 Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).

Oh really ?
Did you know the Rebbies changed this law ?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize. 

 Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).

Oh really ?
Did you know the Rebbies changed this law ?

what do you mean?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I like Chaims answer in this weeks Ask JTF to Dannycookie, it is very relevent to this discussion.

[Dexter]

Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize. 

 Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).

Oh really ?
Did you know the Rebbies changed this law ?

what do you mean?

In the Book Of Exodus chapter 31 verse 14 it says that a punishment for Shabbat violating is death :
" Keep you my sabbath: for it is holy unto you: he that shall profane it, shall be put to death: he that shall do my work in it, his soul shall perish out of the midst of his people"

The rabbis cancelled it .

[JewishTeddyBear]

As I have already stated, just because the Torah says that this or that behavior should be put to death, does not mean that it should be taken literally.  The Rabbis of the Talmud deliberately made it almost impossible to implement the death penalty in cases like violating the Sabbath, precisely because of the premium we put on the value of human life.  Those statements in the Torah are meant to set standards, to let Jews know just how seriously they should consider the Sabbath to be.

Although I consider myself to be a Kahanist, I think that one of its dangers is that our cry for justice can turn into a murderous bloodbath when we turn against ourselves instead.  It is one thing to call for the death of islamofascist murderers, which I support 100%; but quite another to turn that same energy against our own people, finding oneself using any excuse to murder one's fellow Jews.

[Dr. Dan]

I like Chaims answer in this weeks Ask JTF to Dannycookie, it is very relevent to this discussion.

thanks tzvi, but which part did you like? The first part or the second part?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize. 

 Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).

Oh really ?
Did you know the Rebbies changed this law ?

what do you mean?

In the Book Of Exodus chapter 31 verse 14 it says that a punishment for Shabbat violating is death :
" Keep you my sabbath: for it is holy unto you: he that shall profane it, shall be put to death: he that shall do my work in it, his soul shall perish out of the midst of his people"

The rabbis cancelled it .

no one cancelled it, no commandment is canceled ever. Just becuase it isnt executed doesnt mean that one who purposly and knowingly violates it doesnt deserve and wont get it threw divine means. For example someone who is a murderer and murdered someone else even though he isnt killed for it in the court below (human court) does it mean that divine justice wont be executed on him?
- anyway I didnt suggest killing someone who violates the Shabb-t, someone who does kill another person for violating the Shabb-t, himself deserves death, But one thing Jews should get out of this discussion is that Shabb-t is a critical Mitzva and breaking it is playing with fire- playing with life and death.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I like Chaims answer in this weeks Ask JTF to Dannycookie, it is very relevent to this discussion.

thanks tzvi, but which part did you like? The first part or the second part?

 I dont remember exactly but I think the whole thing.

[Dexter]

Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize. 

 Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).

Oh really ?
Did you know the Rebbies changed this law ?

what do you mean?

In the Book Of Exodus chapter 31 verse 14 it says that a punishment for Shabbat violating is death :
" Keep you my sabbath: for it is holy unto you: he that shall profane it, shall be put to death: he that shall do my work in it, his soul shall perish out of the midst of his people"

The rabbis cancelled it .

no one cancelled it, no commandment is canceled ever. Just becuase it isnt executed doesnt mean that one who purposly and knowingly violates it doesnt deserve and wont get it threw divine means. For example someone who is a murderer and murdered someone else even though he isnt killed for it in the court below (human court) does it mean that divine justice wont be executed on him?
- anyway I didnt suggest killing someone who violates the Shabb-t, someone who does kill another person for violating the Shabb-t, himself deserves death, But one thing Jews should get out of this discussion is that Shabb-t is a critical Mitzva and breaking it is playing with fire- playing with life and death.

Anyway, it's a very extream punishment, very very extream (death + karat) .

[JewishTeddyBear]

tzvi sure seems awfully anxious about murdering as many sabbath-violating Jews as he can get his bloody hands on.  I am beginning to suspect that he is really a moslem and not Jewish at all.

[Dexter]

tzvi sure seems awfully anxious about murdering as many sabbath-violating Jews as he can get his bloody hands on.  I am beginning to suspect that he is really a moslem and not Jewish at all.

I don't think Tzvi is a muslim, but a very extream Jew, even the Charedim aren't like him .

[JewishTeddyBear]

Dexter, thank you for saying that.  Because if I thought that even the ultra-orthodox Jews would call for the death of their fellow Jews as freely as does tzvi here, I would want to have nothing to do with such an evil G-d and such a barbaric religion.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Dexter, thank you for saying that.  Because if I thought that even the ultra-orthodox Jews would call for the death of their fellow Jews as freely as does tzvi here, I would want to have nothing to do with such an evil G-d and such a barbaric religion.

 You have repiditly accused me of wanting to kill fellow Jews, I asked you before to please bring your prof for these vicious accusations against me.

[Dr. Dan]

Tzvi is a religious Jew from a certain school of learning different from me, Teddy Bear, and Dexter amongst many others.

Tzvi is a good Jew, but needs to word his opinions more properly so that a million people don't attack him in haste. I think I understand him much more now and he's not such a bad guy. I still disagree on a ton of things.

As far as violating Shabbat on purpose in a rebellious manner...yes it is an evil unJewish thing to do...can we all agree on that?

Now what do you think if a Jew rested on a 7th day, but not necessarily on the Jewish sabbath? Is that evil?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Now what do you think if a Jew rested on a 7th day, but not necessarily on the Jewish sabbath? Is that evil?

yes, it is wronge. Shabb-t isnt just about not working and taking a day off. I posted a few links about Shabb-t, I highly recomend you listing to the lectures or reading from a website about Shabb-t. (ill post it in a sec.)

Seminar - December 20, 2006 - The Sabbat - Hebrew
(its in Hebrew- but its about the Shabb-t)

Seminar - January 11, 2006 - The Shabbat (this one is in english)


http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp



http://www.israel613.com/
www.Kolyakov.org 

- please check these sites out.   
 

[JewishTeddyBear]

As a matter of fact, I do not regard a Sabbath violator to be an evil person, just not a particularly spiritual person.  The only ones I regard as evil as those who actively harm their fellow human beings.

[Shlomo]

Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.

If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.

But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.

Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.

Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.

[Dr. Dan]

As a matter of fact, I do not regard a Sabbath violator to be an evil person, just not a particularly spiritual person.  The only ones I regard as evil as those who actively harm their fellow human beings.

I'm not talking about someone who violates Shabbat knowingly, but feels guilty about it. I'm talking about someone who actively cancels out shabbat...such as a self-hating Jew saying, "I"m great, nothing will happen to me, and just to prove it, I'm going to light a match for no reason on Saturday." That's evil to me.

[Dr. Dan]

Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.

If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.

But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.

Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.

Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.

Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.

If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.

But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.

Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.

Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.

Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.

okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?