jtf forum working on the Sabbath?

[JewishTeddyBear]

From the way he keeps insisting on giving Judaism a bad name, I strongly suspect that tzvi is not even Jewish.  The belief system he is describing is certainly different from the Orthodox Judaism that I have spent decades learning.

[jdl4ever]

Tzvi Ben Roshel, tell me in all honesty have you ever gone out into the world and talked to not religious Jews?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Tzvi Ben Roshel, tell me in all honesty have you ever gone out into the world and talked to not religious Jews?

yea, everyday, Im not in a religious enviornment (unless im in shul). When the Halacha is in question I say what I know becuase it is my obligation to say it- those who keep silent are responsible for the sins.   '

-most of the people I know arent religious, -if I see I can have some influence on them, I keep contact, if not then I dont want to interact with them- ill just say hi, bye, thats about it.

[jdl4ever]

Tzvi Ben Roshel, your way of talking is the way 2 close friends learning Talmud together in the Yeshiva sometimes talk.  They usually are very direct and confrontational in order to better understand the Torah but since they are close friends they don't get offended.  When people don't interact with the rest of the world and try to use this type of language on other Orthodox Jews who are not their close friends from the same Yeshivah, they usually start insulting them and calling them names since they never had someone with radically different opinions and their mind goes crazy since before this they only argued about minor concepts in the same Yeshivah and end up making a Chillul Hashem.  When they go out and talk to non Orthodox Jews, the Chillul Hashem is even greater.  Therefore I ask if you ever went out into the world before since his language is very insulting and will do the opposite of what you intend it to do.  My advise is to never talk this way to people, you've been insulting these guys for 13 pages and you are making a Chillul Hashem.

[Dr. Dan]

 The way one chooses to find peace on the 7th day however will be different from another person. 

Read my post correctly I said in some aspects.

And about your statement- Im sorry that is complete heresy. Even though you seem like I nice guy and I might be tempted to say that okay you are right or whatever, no Jew who knows the truth is allowed to even give a hint that you are right is what you just said. You talked to a Rav- so you should ask him more importantly how you should keep Shabb-t, and not make your own ideas based on nothing (or even so called logical intentions).

[JDL4EVER- STOP Making a Chillul Hashem by being nasty to your fellow Jews.  You're setting a very bad example by constantly defaming dannycookie and such tactics are unacceptable and only drive people away.]

JDL4EVER never defamed me...in fact nobody here has really ever defamed me.

but i'll tell you Zvi, I'm not an observant Jew and am in the motion of learning as I go and questioning what I don't understand...and btw, I'm 30 years old and not 13...so if you are younger than me, you should have the gumption to at least show some respect and the way you choose your words even in generalizing of how a Jew ought to act.

But from 30 years of experiencing life I have learned that it is only common sense to treat your fellow human being with dignity and that's where it all starts. Without that light, understanding anything any wise man teaches or writes based on his inspiration from Gd will come out all wrong and make no sense..so just think about it. You stated something last night that deeply hurt my feelings that a Jew who violates the Torah is committing a sin worse than murder. It felt as if every fact that I learned in my life along with Chaim's answers on ask JTF for the last 8 months or so to be a farse according to what you wrote...so please think about it.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

okay maybe you are right, when posting I didnt realize that it would insult people. - but please tell me after reading about some people making light of Shabb-t what was I supposed to say?

[Dr. Dan]

What do you expect us to do, we can't lie about what the Torah says.  The Torah says that if you violate the Sabbath you are to be stoned, we didn't make that up.  This is not to say we think that the not religious are evil and should be killed.  You are not held responsible if you did not have a proper Jewish education or upbringing and are not familiar with the Torah.  We are here to educate you. 

Tzvi Ben Roshel, I'm going to ban you if you continue making a Chillul Hashem by being nasty to your fellow Jews.

jdl4ever, in as much what is written in the Torah by the hand of Gd, it is also necessary to understand the context it was written and at the time it was written.  Doesn't it concern you that one day you might have to stone a friend of yours who did something he wasn't supposed to do on Shabbat?  Doesn't also concern you if someone goes with the motions of shabbat but deep in his heart hates it?

[JewishTeddyBear]

Perhaps one way that tzvi can get out of this mess would be if we would change the subject?  This topic has become like beating a dead horse into the ground.

[jdl4ever]

okay maybe you are right, when posting I didnt realize that it would insult people. - but please tell me after reading about some people making light of Shabb-t what was I supposed to say?

You are supposed to write "The Orthodox viewpoint differs and is the following ... " as to not offend anyone or hurt anyone's feelings as loving your neighbor as yourself is the key to the Torah.  Never say negative things like "your a heretic", "you are going to burn in hell", or even "you are wrong".  You always present information respectfully so that if they are interested they will read it.  No one will read what you say if you call them names and insult what they write.  You will be ignored and they will hate you.  Only insult outright nazis or muslims.

[Dr. Dan]

okay maybe you are right, when posting I didnt realize that it would insult people. - but please tell me after reading about some people making light of Shabb-t what was I supposed to say?

I forgive you...because i know you didn't mean harm or any maliciousness towards me.  And it's Yom Kippur so I want you to just think about Gd forgiving your for your sins and not me holding a grudge...anyway...

In my opinion, let's say Shabbat, for example...you talk about how beautiful it is to be away from nonsense such as found in internet chat rooms etc etc etc...My understanding of the concept of Shabbat is to be at peace...to not let your inner fire light up and not just the matches. I think that's where it should start...finding one day out of 7 days to find peace within oneself and making that day different from all other days. Dinner with the WHOLE family, no TV, no radio, no college football, shul, meaningful discussions, Pirket Avot, nap time, Havdalah candles at teh end of the day...in the end, that's the whole point of Shabbat.

Ok, meticulous things like not taking hot showers, flicking on a light switch, typing on a keyboard, writing, studying for biology class..ok...i respect all observant Jews who are scrupulous..for me, at this point in my life, is quite a stretch. But one day at a time..or with the help from Gd, my children and grandchildren will become more observant especially in the rabbinical sense with fences and all.

however, right now, I ponder about these fences. On the one hand I can make such fences a reality to me in regards to waiting for a subway...technically you should be in front of that yellow line..so, some build a fence to be just behind the yellow line and others wait 3 feet from the yellow line..I personally stand back against the wall..that's my fence protecting me from danger...and so with Torah the same goes with preventing oneself from temptation.  So let's say, "thou shalt not eat a calf in its mother's milk".  There are fences including poultry to not mix it with dairy..me personally, i'm not tempted to eat cheese burgers when I eat chicken parmesian...to others they will get tempted. THe vast majority of Jews do it because it was the tradition of their home.

anyway..i'm off on a tangent..

[jdl4ever]

jdl4ever, in as much what is written in the Torah by the hand of Gd, it is also necessary to understand the context it was written and at the time it was written.  Doesn't it concern you that one day you might have to stone a friend of yours who did something he wasn't supposed to do on Shabbat?  Doesn't also concern you if someone goes with the motions of shabbat but deep in his heart hates it?

Each and every period of about 20 years in each and every major geographical area in the world has a certain set of time dependent beliefs.  This is called a "paradigm".  Every generation, the set of cultural beliefs in that area changes, what is known as a "paradigm shift".  Let's use America for example.  In the current era of 2007, most people in America are liberal, don't believe in G-d, believe that there is nothing wrong with being gay, thought spanking children was bad, don't support the death penalty as well as a hundred other parameters.  Such beliefs had existed for about one generation.  Now just two generation earlier (1957-1967), the paradigm of our society was much different than it was today.  The majority of Americans were conservative, believed in G-d, thought homosexuality was unnatural, thought spanking children was good and supported the death penalty.  The next generation went a paradigm shift and the cultural beliefs in America changed and then another paradigm shift occurred and we have the cultural norms of this era.  Now, this is only the current paradigm in America, in other areas of the world the paradigm is very different.  For example, in India the cultural norm may be to worship cows and to never eat meat. 

Knowing the way cultural time dependant beliefs of geographical areas in the world change rapidly from one generation to the next is crucial into understanding the Torah.  Orthodox Judaism believes that the Torah is the word of G-d and is therefore immutable and can not be changed.  Because if the Torah was generation dependant and can be changed, we would have nothing left of the Torah in our time since the Torah was in existence for about 3400 years.  During 3400 years there would have been 170 paradigm shifts, each different in various areas of the world that the Jews lived.  With all these paradigm shifts adapting the Torah principles to each cultural norm like the cultural norm of the Romans to murder people and worship idols and the Muslim cultural norm to hump animals, each commandment in the Torah would change so frequently as to render the Torah useless, since each area of the world would practice it differently and each commandment would no longer have any semblance to the original text written by Moses.

[Dr. Dan]

jdl4ever, in as much what is written in the Torah by the hand of Gd, it is also necessary to understand the context it was written and at the time it was written.  Doesn't it concern you that one day you might have to stone a friend of yours who did something he wasn't supposed to do on Shabbat?  Doesn't also concern you if someone goes with the motions of shabbat but deep in his heart hates it?

Each and every period of about 20 years in each and every major geographical area in the world has a certain set of time dependent beliefs.  This is called a "paradyme".  Every generation, the set of cultural beliefs in that area changes, what is known as a "paradyme shift".  Let's use America for example.  In the current era of 2007, most people in America are liberal, don't believe in G-d, believe that there is nothing wrong with being gay, thought spanking children was bad, don't support the death penalty as well as a hundred other parameters.  Such beliefs had existed for about one generation.  Now just two generation earlier (1957-1967), the paradigm of our society was much different than it was today.  The majority of Americans were conservative, believed in G-d, thought homosexuality was unnatural, thought spanking children was good and supported the death penalty.  The next generation went a pradyme shift and the cultural beliefs in America changed and then another paradyme shift ocured and we have the cultural norms of this era.  Now, this is only the current paradigm in America, in other areas of the world the paradigm is very different.  For example, in India the cultural norm may be to worship cows and to never eat meat. 

Knowing the way cultural time dependant beliefs of geographical areas in the world change rapidly from one generation to the next is crucial into understanding the Torah.  Orthodox Judaism believes that the Torah is the word of G-d and is therefore immutable and can not be changed.  Because if the Torah was generation dependant and can be changed, we would have nothing left of the Torah in our time since the Torah was in existance for about 3400 years.  During 3400 years there would have been 170 paradigm shifts, each different in various areas of the world that the Jews lived.  With all these paradigm shifts adapting the Torah principles to each cultural norm like the cultural norm of the Romans to murder people and worship idols and the Muslim cultural norm to hump animials, each commandment in the Torah would change so frequently as to render the Torah useless, since each area of the world would practice it differently and each commandment would no longer have any sembelance to the original text written by Moses.

hahaha nice! Well anyway, there may be a pardigm shift once a true religious zionist govt takes over in Israel and when almost every Jew around the world lives in Israel...

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...The Torah says that if you violate the Sabbath you are to be stoned, we didn't make that up..."

True.

But neither did Torah make up the passage where Moshe appoints Judges to hear the Children of Israel and make judgements of the law, telling them "...and you shall judge the Children of Israel, each according to his generation."

Talmud discusses this passage to mean that every generation is different than the previous generation; living as their environment and world changes constantly about them, and that therefore the Law must be judiciously applied and interpreted to suit the times of each generation.

The Sages of the Talmud knew more about Torah long ago than do I now.

Modern man does not obey the Law as it was written for the generation which dwelled 40 years in the Wilderness.

The Law remains, but by necessity its application "to the exact letter of the Law" is no longer applicable.

If it was still taken literally, with no interpretation (and remember...it was MOSHE who ordered it be interpreted to suit each generation) then we ALL would have been dead long ago.

And, if we were sinless, there would not be a Yom Kippur given us by Ha'Shem through Moshe.

You show me a person who demands the very letter of the law be carrried out as it was written for desert dwellers in the year 1500 BC, and I'll show you a bunch of Wahabi and Taliban cutting off hands and feet and whipping their women.

We Jews have spent 2000 years wandering in Exile among non-Jews, forced to live within every civilization and nation up to the present day.

We are no longer a people with a mindset exactly as it was the day we departed Pharoah's Egypt.

Why don't you in dispute take care of your own individual spiritual conditions?

In the end that is all any one of us can control.

Think about it.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...there may be a pardigm shift..."

The only real paradigm shift is coming with Moshiach, and most likely sooner than any of us here expect.

Moshiach is who will lead ALL Jews back to Eretz Yisrael.

Moshiach is who will rebuild the 3rd Temple and establish the reign of Ha'Shem throughout the entire world.

Until then we do the best we can, and we should remember that it is Moshiach who establishes The World to Come and not JTF.

[Dr. Dan]

Amen!

[MassuhDGoodName]

dannycookie5:  "...Amen!..."

THAT DID IT!

YOU ONLY SAID "AMEN!" JUST TO START A FIGHT WITH ME!

DIDN'T YOU?   DIDN'T YOU?       

[Dr. Dan]

listen, there is a little truth to what most people say even if it is opposite to another truth.

[JewishTeddyBear]

does that mean that there is also little truth to what dannyCookie says?

[Shlomo]

I think this topic has been a very good one and I was glad to see the debate. I think most people were very respectful and handled this debate well.

There are two areas where keeping Shabbat can be broken, for serious medical reasons or to save human life. Murder can never be broken. So in this regard, I can understand why someone would think this but Torah doesn't always "seem" logical (at first).

I am simply telling you how serious of an issue this really is for Jewish people. If I don't say something, it's as bad as if I took part... just like Chaim says about the whole islam thing and standing up against evil. If we sit here and say nothing... it's as if we condoned it.

A lot of people got offended at this. That's really unfortunate because it's a beautiful thing (to observe Shabbat). Honestly, I still mess up all the time. I'll accidentally turn lights off, accidentally turn on the hot water, not thinking - open a food package, out of habit strike up a conversation about work, etc... but all Jewish people should strive to take a step towards Shabbat observance. We do everything one step at a time so I didn't mean to overwhelm you. Taking one small but difficult step means more to Hashem than someone who observed all their life. OZ77 once told me "Commit yourself to one thing at a time ... and always remember that your small steps are much bigger to Hashem than any Orthodox Jew who was brought up religious... The more you sacrifice the greater your reward will be in the afterlife." I hope he doesn't mind my quoting him but I think these words are very profound.

Still... the penalty in the Torah for breaking Shabbat is death and thankfully we have incredible and endless mercy from Hashem for this generation. The Bible is VERY clear on this issue.

Of course, if I know a Jew does not keep the Sabbath (although it bothers me somewhat) I dont judge or say anything to them, I just hope that one day they will find spirituality and STRENGTH to keep Shabbos. It's easy not to keep Shabbos and easy not keep Kosher but it takes strenght, love and spirituality to keep these blessings. Plus to me, the easy way is NOT always the right way!

I am glad you said this. I don't judge either, Mills. I wasn't always religious and didn't always keep Shabbat. If we are hateful to other Jewish people who are trying, then what good is that going to do?

Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.

Tzvi is right. Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi is awesome and anyone with questions on this topic should check out this audio. I think he covers it's in MUCH greater detail and answers almost every questions posted in here. The information is there if you have questions.

Still, please... Jewish people should not be posting (or logging in for that matter) in the forum on Shabbat or Yom Kippur. I am absolutely against this. Let's keep Shabbat Holy and be an example.

"Whoever is careful with the observance of Shabbat, will be forgiven for all his sins, even idolatry" (Masechet Shabbat 118b)

"If the Children of Israel would observe one Shabbat properly, the Mashiach would immediately come" (Yerushalmi Taanit 1,1)

...

"We have seen the fundamental importance of the prohibition of Melacha on Shabbat. We have seen that even one Melacha-Act on Shabbat strikes at the roots of the whole Torah, and is an arrogant denial of G-d and his mastery of the world."

http://www.ou.org/chagim/shabbat/protect.htm

[JewishTeddyBear]

There is a good reason why no Sabbath violators been been killed by the Jewish courts: because it would be an act of murder. 

The Torah states that the penalty for violating the Sabbath is death, not so that we Jews would become as fond of murdering each other as the moslems are of murdering anything that breathes, but rather to set a standard, to emphasize how important the Sabbath is. 

The Talmudic sages understood this, and deliberately made the conditions for killing Sabbath violators almost impossible to execute.

Furthermore, it is highly questionable whether anybody in here is even allowed according to Jewish law to try to force other Jews to keep the Sabbath.  It is actually forbidden to reprimand a fellow Jew about a given behavior if that person is not going to change his behavior as a result.  I know for myself, that the more strident and intolerant some people have sounded here about the subject, the more I intend to NOT keep the Sabbath.  I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way.  Treating each other with respect is far more important than observing the Sabbath.

There are, of course, much kinder, gentler ways to urge one's fellow Jews to keep the Sabbath, but something tells me that the more strident ones in here are not really interested in, for example, reprimanding their fellow Jew by inviting them into their homes for a Sabbath meal, where they can experience the beauty of that day.  No, they are not interested in such a kind approach, because they wish to use religion as a way to give themselves a false sense of their own superiority.

[Dr. Dan]

There is a good reason why no Sabbath violators been been killed by the Jewish courts: because it would be an act of murder. 

The Torah states that the penalty for violating the Sabbath is death, not so that we Jews would become as fond of murdering each other as the moslems are of murdering anything that breathes, but rather to set a standard, to emphasize how important the Sabbath is. 

The Talmudic sages understood this, and deliberately made the conditions for killing Sabbath violators almost impossible to execute.

Furthermore, it is highly questionable whether anybody in here is even allowed according to Jewish law to try to force other Jews to keep the Sabbath.  It is actually forbidden to reprimand a fellow Jew about a given behavior if that person is not going to change his behavior as a result.  I know for myself, that the more strident and intolerant some people have sounded here about the subject, the more I intend to NOT keep the Sabbath.  I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way.  Treating each other with respect is far more important than observing the Sabbath.

There are, of course, much kinder, gentler ways to urge one's fellow Jews to keep the Sabbath, but something tells me that the more strident ones in here are not really interested in, for example, reprimanding their fellow Jew by inviting them into their homes for a Sabbath meal, where they can experience the beauty of that day.  No, they are not interested in such a kind approach, because they wish to use religion as a way to give themselves a false sense of their own superiority.

I"ll tell you, when Rivera first started this post and Tzvi chimed in, I was so tempted to go on this forum every shabbat on purpose because the way the statement was presented was a high and mighty type statement.  I just wanted to say, "Dont tell me what to do? you're not the boss of me"

but honestly, i would want to undestand if going on teh internet or typing on teh computer is an actual form of desecrating shabbat or if it is a fence built around the torah to prevent one from beign tempted to desecrate shabbat.

I also have another question about shabbat. what if one is a dentist or doctor? Is he allowed to see his/her patients on shabbat?

[JewishTeddyBear]

Because of the way that some people in this forum have used Sabbath to feel superior over their fellow Jews, I intend to make a special point of coming in here on precisely that day.

As to whether the internet can be used on Shabbat or not, all authorities agree that you definitely cannot turn your computer on or off on Shabbat, nor can you print anything on that day either.  There is some disagreement as to whether one can use it once it is already on, but even in such cases, all agree that being on the internet on shabbat is not in the spirit of that day.  In short, better to stay off it entirely on Shabbat.

As for doctors and dentists, they normally are not allowed to work on Shabbat just like any other Jew.  The only exception to this is to save a person's life.  This can have wide application; for example, a woman entering labor is considered to have her life enough in danger that her husband would be halachically required to make sure his wife gets to hospital ASAP, even on Shabbat.

[Shlomo]

JewishTeddybear, you are a nice person and we like you but I have to be very frank with your response. Please hear me out.

Treating each other with respect is far more important than observing the Sabbath.

Who said? That is ridiculous. That's the "honor/shame mentality" straight from islam and black thugs in gangs. You don't "do" or "not do" because of other people. The Torah is VERY clear on that. How could this even be an argument?

No, they are not interested in such a kind approach, because they wish to use religion as a way to give themselves a false sense of their own superiority.

Who has claimed superiority over you? Seriously. I can tell you that I do not feel superior over you. I don't even know you other than the forum.

Because of the way that some people in this forum have used Sabbath to feel superior over their fellow Jews, I intend to make a special point of coming in here on precisely that day.

As to whether the internet can be used on Shabbat or not, all authorities agree that you definitely cannot turn your computer on or off on Shabbat, nor can you print anything on that day either.  There is some disagreement as to whether one can use it once it is already on, but even in such cases, all agree that being on the internet on shabbat is not in the spirit of that day.  In short, better to stay off it entirely on Shabbat.

As for doctors and dentists, they normally are not allowed to work on Shabbat just like any other Jew.  The only exception to this is to save a person's life.  This can have wide application; for example, a woman entering labor is considered to have her life enough in danger that her husband would be halachically required to make sure his wife gets to hospital ASAP, even on Shabbat.

So you give the reasons right there and then you chose to make some kind of point (I'm not really sure to who) to break Shabbat and do it publicly? This is your protest? Geez, man. Don't be so irrational. Let me explain... I am honored that you wish to make some sort of point to me (or that you feel we are this important to show something to) but you are wasting your time - and doing something awful to Torah. That's not a very well thought out protest. You aren't hurting me... You are hurting yourself.

I am no tzadik on Shabbat. I make mistakes all the time. I struggle with it. And when it's multiple days together... wow... it's HARD. But if you log in and do stuff to make some kind of imaginary point because of your pride, ego, and rebellion, how much respect do you actually think you are going to "earn"?

There are, of course, much kinder, gentler ways to urge one's fellow Jews to keep the Sabbath, but something tells me that the more strident ones in here are not really interested in, for example, reprimanding their fellow Jew by inviting them into their homes for a Sabbath meal, where they can experience the beauty of that day.

I like this. That's why I ended with it. I think this is a wonderful thing and more people should do this. On this point, you are 100% correct. This has motivated me and is beautiful.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

There is a good reason why no Sabbath violators been been killed by the Jewish courts: because it would be an act of murder. 

The courts tried everything not to kill any violators- even murderers- so thats not a good proof- becuase they said let G-d really do the judgements (so they tried every excuse by cross examming and trying to find 1 contradiction in both the Shabb-t cases and the murder cases). - if the Jewish court did execute and their were executions- for example the fist violator was killed in Moshe's time for violating it- it is not murder- if you say its murder then you are judging our Hachamim and even Moshe as a murderer?

- what you said on the last post really disturbs me. No one is trying to "feel superior", but just to point Halacha out, stop putting things into my mouth and please get yourself out of all of these confussions. And even if someone here is responsible for making you feel bad or whateva you belive to happen (which isnt true)- You would then purposly go on the forum just because of that?- at the end of the day you wont be doing harm to me, you will only be doing harm to yourself.(how would you get your "revenge" or whatever you seem to be implying)- whateva think about it.

[JewishTeddyBear]

What is ridiculous is to NOT consider how we treat each other to be more important than the sabbath.  When the gentile came to Hillel demanding that Hillel teach him the entire Torah standing on one foot, Hillel did not mention the sabbath at all.  Instead, he said, "Do not do to others what you would not have others do to you.  All the rest is commentary."

And yes, the more people in here arrogantly and self-righteously try to shove the ritual aspects of Judaism down our throats, the more I am going to rebel and do the very opposite.  I let no man rule over me, not even strangers on an internet forum who exploit their defective understanding of religion to gain a false sense of their own superiority.