jtf forum working on the Sabbath?

[Mishmaat]

Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews.  Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.

On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins."  To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important.  G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily.  Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk. 

I agree. I wouldn't want to be around such a person either. The best approach is to show a fellow Jew that he's erred and point him in the right direction. All of course done with chesed and with true Ahavat Yisrael.

[Dr. Dan]

Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews.  Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.

On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins."  To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important.  G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily.  Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk. 

I agree. I wouldn't want to be around such a person either. The best approach is to show a fellow Jew that he's erred and point him in the right direction. All of course done with chesed and with true Ahavat Yisrael.

Amen!

[Rivera]

Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews.  Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.

On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins."  To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important.  G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily.  Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk. 

I agree. I wouldn't want to be around such a person either. The best approach is to show a fellow Jew that he's erred and point him in the right direction. All of course done with chesed and with true Ahavat Yisrael.

Amen!

It was G-D that said keep the sabbath holy. You are indirectly attacking G-D!

[JewishTeddyBear]

A Jew making entries into this forum on the Jewish Sabbath is not saving a life by any stretch of the imagination, and is thus violating the laws of Sabbath by making comments on here on that day.

However, I suppose I have to once again bring up those two quotes I wrote before: There is no man so righteous that he never sins, and let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

None of us are perfect.  The Torah was given to us precisely because we are deeply flawed human beings who need to strive for perfection.  But until perfection happens, we do need to proceed with caution when criticizing the religious practices of others.  All of us are sinners; who are, therefore, any of us to criticize other people's sins?  Besides, how religious any of us are, is really a private matter between us as individuals, and G-d.

I feel completely differently about this when it comes to moral behavior, because that involves one human being harming his fellow human beings.  In such cases, intervention is usually mandated, regardless of one's personal level of saintliness.

One more thing about this matter.  As many have already pointed out, about half the people here are not even Jewish, and there is no mandate for gentiles to keep the sabbath.  So even if one were to allow gentiles to write comments here on the sabbath, but forbid it to Jews, exactly how would this work?  Would those in charge give each person here the fifth degree, shining a spotlight on them, probing them for the purity of their Jewish ancestry?  Would those of us less religious Jews have to resort to pretending to be gentiles, just so that we can have the freedom to make comments on here on the Sabbath?  Do any of us really want such a gestapo-type atmosphere here?

To repeat: There is no man so righteous that he never sins.  Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

[Dr. Dan]

Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews.  Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.

On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins."  To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important.  G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily.  Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk. 

I agree. I wouldn't want to be around such a person either. The best approach is to show a fellow Jew that he's erred and point him in the right direction. All of course done with chesed and with true Ahavat Yisrael.

Amen!

It was G-D that said keep the sabbath holy. You are indirectly attacking G-D!

Rivera, you need to understand something:  The Jew's worst enemy is himself and another Jew.  It woudl be a terrible mistake to impose rules on Jews who are not ready to follow certain rules. Rather, the smart thing is to encourage him and point him in the right direction, albiet, allowing him to challenge the one teaching him.

If a Jewish authority were to force another Jew to follow the rules, he would be no better than a Christian or a Muslim or anyone esle who forces another to follow a certain rule. In fact, what may happen is that one religious Jew will fight another religious Jew over a technicality if extremism in that nature is pursued. Rivera, it's best that you stay out of making judgement...You will turn to dust like Saddam Hussein will turn to dust after your body is buried. Stop acting like you are better than thou...haughtiness is a terrible sin!

[Dr. Dan]

A Jew making entries into this forum on the Jewish Sabbath is not saving a life by any stretch of the imagination, and is thus violating the laws of Sabbath by making comments on here on that day.

However, I suppose I have to once again bring up those two quotes I wrote before: There is no man so righteous that he never sins, and let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

None of us are perfect.  The Torah was given to us precisely because we are deeply flawed human beings who need to strive for perfection.  But until perfection happens, we do need to proceed with caution when criticizing the religious practices of others.  All of us are sinners; who are, therefore, any of us to criticize other people's sins?  Besides, how religious any of us are, is really a private matter between us as individuals, and G-d.

I feel completely differently about this when it comes to moral behavior, because that involves one human being harming his fellow human beings.  In such cases, intervention is usually mandated, regardless of one's personal level of saintliness.

One more thing about this matter.  As many have already pointed out, about half the people here are not even Jewish, and there is no mandate for gentiles to keep the sabbath.  So even if one were to allow gentiles to write comments here on the sabbath, but forbid it to Jews, exactly how would this work?  Would those in charge give each person here the fifth degree, shining a spotlight on them, probing them for the purity of their Jewish ancestry?  Would those of us less religious Jews have to resort to pretending to be gentiles, just so that we can have the freedom to make comments on here on the Sabbath?  Do any of us really want such a gestapo-type atmosphere here?

To repeat: There is no man so righteous that he never sins.  Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

I love this guy!

[JewishTeddyBear]

To Danny, thank you, it feels wonderful to be appreciated.  It is especially satisfying when my writing is complimented in that way, as my dream is to be a writer.

Danny also reminded me of an important Jewish principle, and that is that we Jews have to be very careful about who and under what circumstances we reprimand our fellow Jews.  We are actually prohibited to reprimand a Jew for a behavior if we know the person will ignore us. 

Some 2,000 years ago, some famous Talmudic sage commented that he does not know even one person who truly knows how to effectively reprimand his fellow Jew.  If somebody back in the Talmudic days can say that, when clearly the spiritual level of the Jewish people was vastly greater than it is in our own day, then how much more true is this principle in our day and age.

[Dr. Dan]

wow, i can actually learn a lot from you, Mr. jewishteddybear...good show.

[Rivera]

To Danny, thank you, it feels wonderful to be appreciated.  It is especially satisfying when my writing is complimented in that way, as my dream is to be a writer.

Danny also reminded me of an important Jewish principle, and that is that we Jews have to be very careful about who and under what circumstances we reprimand our fellow Jews.  We are actually prohibited to reprimand a Jew for a behavior if we know the person will ignore us. 

Some 2,000 years ago, some famous Talmudic sage commented that he does not know even one person who truly knows how to effectively reprimand his fellow Jew.  If somebody back in the Talmudic days can say that, when clearly the spiritual level of the Jewish people was vastly greater than it is in our own day, then how much more true is this principle in our day and age.

Well look at the Torah and see how the Toarh reprimands people for not keeping the Torah. It is much Harsher then I am!

[Dr. Dan]

listen, rivera, let Gd do the punishment...i don't like your preaching...and you will only turn me and people like me away by saying the things that you say and the way you say it.

[JewishTeddyBear]

Rivera, you are actually helping to make my point.  The reason why Moses can be so harsh with the Jews in the Sinai desert is precisely because he knew exactly how to reprimand them in a way that would make them improve their behavior, plus the Jews in the desert were at an almost infinitely higher spiritual level then are we Jews of today, and therefore they were ready to here such criticisms.  But if Moses were alive today, he would have to be extremely cautious about what he tells his fellow Jews.  Indeed, any of the truly great Rabbis living today, are very careful about criticizing the religious practices of their fellow Jews.  They choose to reprimand us in far more gentler ways, such as serving as good examples of how to truly live as a Jew, or inviting us to their homes for Sabbath meals, where we can again see how a Jew is really supposed to live.

[JewishTeddyBear]

I just thought of something else about this issue.  Moses himself, considered by many to be the greatest Jew to ever live and certainly the greatest of all prophets, the man who led the Jewish people out of Egyptian bondage, was himself not allowed to realize his ultimate dream of entering the land of Israel precisely because of the way he improperly carried out a reprimand...and not even against a Jew or even fellow human being, but against a rock!  G-d had instructed him to talk to a rock to bring forth much needed water to the thirsty Jews in the Sinai desert.  Instead, Moses lost his temper, and hit the rock with his staff instead.  It did elicit water because Moses was still a very great man, but the damage was done.  Moses prayed to G-d 400 times to please let him into Israel, but G-d adamantly refused.  Moses had reprimanded the rock incorrectly, and that was enough for Moses to meet his death in the Sinai desert.

If such a great man could face such a harsh punishment for how he talks to a rock, just imagine how upset G-d is with those who talk to their fellow Jew in a similarly harsh manner.

[Ehud]

I just thought of something else about this issue.  Moses himself, considered by many to be the greatest Jew to ever live and certainly the greatest of all prophets, the man who led the Jewish people out of Egyptian bondage, was himself not allowed to realize his ultimate dream of entering the land of Israel precisely because of the way he improperly carried out a reprimand...and not even against a Jew or even fellow human being, but against a rock!  G-d had instructed him to talk to a rock to bring forth much needed water to the thirsty Jews in the Sinai desert.  Instead, Moses lost his temper, and hit the rock with his staff instead.  It did elicit water because Moses was still a very great man, but the damage was done.  Moses prayed to G-d 400 times to please let him into Israel, but G-d adamantly refused.  Moses had reprimanded the rock incorrectly, and that was enough for Moses to meet his death in the Sinai desert.

If such a great man could face such a harsh punishment for how he talks to a rock, just imagine how upset G-d is with those who talk to their fellow Jew in a similarly harsh manner.

Fantastic point.

[jdl4ever]

Nice try, but that's not the reason why he sinned, G-d doesn't care about a stupid rock.  The reason is in some level he failed to sanctify G-d's name in public for G-d told him to speak to the rock and have water issue forth which shows greater power from G-d to make miracles then by hitting the rock. 

[JewishTeddyBear]

But what you said and what I said are not mutually exclusive.  You are right, that Moses failed to optimize an opportunity for the greater glory of G-d, but he also displayed a very misplaced reprimand. 

In fact, another angle to all this, is that by hitting the rock instead of talking to it as he had been instructed to by G-d, that he showed that he had too much of a temper to deal with the imperfect Jews, who were guaranteed to be even more flawed once they entered the land of Israel. 

Moses was on such a high spiritual level, that he simply could not understand how anybody could sin the way the Jews were doing.  Joshua proved to be just the leader they needed to take over, because Joshua was on a far lower spiritual level than was Moses, which helped Joshua understand the average Jew a whole lot better.

[Rivera]

But what you said and what I said are not mutually exclusive.  You are right, that Moses failed to optimize an opportunity for the greater glory of G-d, but he also displayed a very misplaced reprimand. 

In fact, another angle to all this, is that by hitting the rock instead of talking to it as he had been instructed to by G-d, that he showed that he had too much of a temper to deal with the imperfect Jews, who were guaranteed to be even more flawed once they entered the land of Israel. 

Moses was on such a high spiritual level, that he simply could not understand how anybody could sin the way the Jews were doing.  Joshua proved to be just the leader they needed to take over, because Joshua was on a far lower spiritual level than was Moses, which helped Joshua understand the average Jew a whole lot better.

OK so what is your opinion on how Chaim reprimands Jewish people? he use's the word KiKi. and says much worser things.

[JewishTeddyBear]

I do not know Chaim ben Pesach well at all, but my impression is that he reprimands the Jewish people as a whole, in the same way that the late great Rabbi Meir Kahane did.  If that is the case, then my attitude is completely different.  Jewish people as a whole do need to be straightened out from time to time.

Having said that, it still depends on what we are being reprimanded for.  If anything, Rabbi Kahane was hard on us Jews not because we were not righteous enough for him, but perhaps for the very opposite: because we were acting TOO saintly, at the cost of Jewish lives.  We Jews are a wonderfully gentle, non-violent, extremely civilized people, which works most of the time, but not when it is at the expense of marching like sheep to the islamofascist slaughterhouse.

I suspect that this is what Chaim ben Moshe is reprimanding us for as well.  I am not aware of him faulting any particular Jew for not following the ritual laws close enough.  He probably saves most of his reprimands for Jews who care more about world opinion, than about fighting for our own survival.

[Rivera]

I do not know Chaim ben Pesach well at all, but my impression is that he reprimands the Jewish people as a whole, in the same way that the late great Rabbi Meir Kahane did.  If that is the case, then my attitude is completely different.  Jewish people as a whole do need to be straightened out from time to time.

Having said that, it still depends on what we are being reprimanded for.  If anything, Rabbi Kahane was hard on us Jews not because we were not righteous enough for him, but perhaps for the very opposite: because we were acting TOO saintly, at the cost of Jewish lives.  We Jews are a wonderfully gentle, non-violent, extremely civilized people, which works most of the time, but not when it is at the expense of marching like sheep to the islamofascist slaughterhouse.

I suspect that this is what Chaim ben Moshe is reprimanding us for as well.  I am not aware of him faulting any particular Jew for not following the ritual laws close enough.  He probably saves most of his reprimands for Jews who care more about world opinion, than about fighting for our own survival.

WOW! what a double stander you have for Chaim and everyone esle. You just got Thur saying in your other post how careful we have to be in reprimanding someone.  And if you listen to Chaim he pulls the rug from under your feet when he reprimands someone. If it is wrong for us it is also wrong for Chaim.

[Ari]

I was wondering about this too.  I must admit I do go online during the Sabbath.  I only hope it's not a very severe violation.

[jdl4ever]

I was wondering about this too.  I must admit I do go online during the Sabbath.  I only hope it's not a very severe violation.

It is.  But you can make a new start this year and repent. 

[Rivera]

I was wondering about this too.  I must admit I do go online during the Sabbath.  I only hope it's not a very severe violation.

It is.  But you can make a new start this year and repent. 

that is right G-D is merciful and kind! and every day is a new begining to do things right.

[JewishTeddyBear]

I tried to carefully explain why Chaim ben Pesach's type of reprimand is different than the one I am opposing here.  I do not know how to explain myself any more clearly, so all I can suggest at this point is to re-read what I have already said.

As far as whether or not keeping Sabbath is one of the worst things to violate, the answer like the answer to just about any such question is, Yes and No.

Keeping the Sabbath is considered one of the signature practices of the Torah observant Jew.  In fact, it is one of the three ways that Jews in the modern world determine if their fellow Jew can accurately be called an Observant, Torah Jew.  (the other two ways are eating kosher, and following the laws of family purity).  A Jew is not even permitted to eat at the home of somebody who may keep kosher perfectly, yet does not keep the laws of the Sabbath.

On the other hand, I have to return what I said earlier, and that is that how we treat one another is far more important than any ritual laws we might follow.  A Jew who drives on the Sabbath, or goes online on the Sabbath, but is a kind, sensitive human being, is a Jew far more worthy of our admiration than is a Sabbath observant Jew who does not even behave with minimal moral decency.

Also, there is an expression that says that our spirituality is not where we are on the spiritual ladder, but whether we are moving up or down on that ladder.  A Jew with no Jewish background whatsoever, who decides to drive a car half way, and walk the rest of the way, to the synagogue on the Sabbath, may be committing a much loftier act than his fellow Jew who walks the entire way to the synagogue.  It all depends on the spiritual effort one makes.  As it says in the Chapters (Ethics) of the Fathers, "According to the spiritual effort, is the heavenly reward."

[Rivera]

I tried to carefully explain why Chaim ben Pesach's type of reprimand is different than the one I am opposing here.  I do not know how to explain myself any more clearly, so all I can suggest at this point is to re-read what I have already said.

As far as whether or not keeping Sabbath is one of the worst things to violate, the answer like the answer to just about any such question is, Yes and No.

Keeping the Sabbath is considered one of the signature practices of the Torah observant Jew.  In fact, it is one of the three ways that Jews in the modern world determine if their fellow Jew can accurately be called an Observant, Torah Jew.  (the other two ways are eating kosher, and following the laws of family purity).  A Jew is not even permitted to eat at the home of somebody who may keep kosher perfectly, yet does not keep the laws of the Sabbath.

On the other hand, I have to return what I said earlier, and that is that how we treat one another is far more important than any ritual laws we might follow.  A Jew who drives on the Sabbath, or goes online on the Sabbath, but is a kind, sensitive human being, is a Jew far more worthy of our admiration than is a Sabbath observant Jew who does not even behave with minimal moral decency.

Also, there is an expression that says that our spirituality is not where we are on the spiritual ladder, but whether we are moving up or down on that ladder.  A Jew with no Jewish background whatsoever, who decides to drive a car half way, and walk the rest of the way, to the synagogue on the Sabbath, may be committing a much loftier act than his fellow Jew who walks the entire way to the synagogue.  It all depends on the spiritual effort one makes.  As it says in the Chapters (Ethics) of the Fathers, "According to the spiritual effort, is the heavenly reward."

You said Chaim reprimand is different then the one you are opposing here .Chaim calls Jewish people kike so in your opinion is that good or bad? because the Nazi groups today also call Jewish people by that name.

[JewishTeddyBear]

I have never heard Chaim ben Pesach call any Jew Kike and cannot even imagine him doing such a thing.  Of course I am against anybody calling Jews by such a disparaging name, yet I would have to see the context in which he said it, before I judge his words.

[Rivera]

I have never heard Chaim ben Pesach call any Jew Kike and cannot even imagine him doing such a thing.  Of course I am against anybody calling Jews by such a disparaging name, yet I would have to see the context in which he said it, before I judge his words.

there is no good context for calling a fellow jew KiKe.