jtf forum working on the Sabbath?

[Rivera]

Chaim calls self-hating Jews kikes and I agree with him on it.

NO JEW RIGHT OR WRONG IS A KIKE! YOU SHOULD B A SHAME OF YOUR SELFS

[JewishTeddyBear]

I have to agree with Rivera on this one.  I do not want to bad-mouth any Jew in here, but I do oppose calling any Jew a Kike for any reason at all, just as I oppose calling any Black the N word, no matter how I feel about the particular Black.

[Rivera]

I have to agree with Rivera on this one.  I do not want to bad-mouth any Jew in here, but I do oppose calling any Jew a Kike for any reason at all, just as I oppose calling any Black the N word, no matter how I feel about the particular Black.

THANK YOU!

[Dr. Dan]

I just thought of something else about this issue.  Moses himself, considered by many to be the greatest Jew to ever live and certainly the greatest of all prophets, the man who led the Jewish people out of Egyptian bondage, was himself not allowed to realize his ultimate dream of entering the land of Israel precisely because of the way he improperly carried out a reprimand...and not even against a Jew or even fellow human being, but against a rock!  G-d had instructed him to talk to a rock to bring forth much needed water to the thirsty Jews in the Sinai desert.  Instead, Moses lost his temper, and hit the rock with his staff instead.  It did elicit water because Moses was still a very great man, but the damage was done.  Moses prayed to G-d 400 times to please let him into Israel, but G-d adamantly refused.  Moses had reprimanded the rock incorrectly, and that was enough for Moses to meet his death in the Sinai desert.

If such a great man could face such a harsh punishment for how he talks to a rock, just imagine how upset G-d is with those who talk to their fellow Jew in a similarly harsh manner.

and a part of today's Torah portion mind you

[Dr. Dan]

But what you said and what I said are not mutually exclusive.  You are right, that Moses failed to optimize an opportunity for the greater glory of G-d, but he also displayed a very misplaced reprimand. 

In fact, another angle to all this, is that by hitting the rock instead of talking to it as he had been instructed to by G-d, that he showed that he had too much of a temper to deal with the imperfect Jews, who were guaranteed to be even more flawed once they entered the land of Israel. 

Moses was on such a high spiritual level, that he simply could not understand how anybody could sin the way the Jews were doing.  Joshua proved to be just the leader they needed to take over, because Joshua was on a far lower spiritual level than was Moses, which helped Joshua understand the average Jew a whole lot better.

OK so what is your opinion on how Chaim reprimands Jewish people? he use's the word KiKi. and says much worser things.

Chaim has his way of approaching people and repreminding them. I personally don't agree with it compeletely, but I know where he's coming from...AND I also know he does it out of so much love for the Jewish people and righteous people...so much love that, like a good father, punishes his child when he knowingly rebels.

On that note, I think that Chaim and Chaim alone should act this way and not anyone else.

Now, on another angle, I used to think that chaim's way of communicating to left wing Jews likened to Moses's way of hitting the rock rather than talking to it and might be Chaim's downfall of ever making it to the level he wants to be...but i'm not a prophet...so my speculation there is moot.

[Dr. Dan]

I do not know Chaim ben Pesach well at all, but my impression is that he reprimands the Jewish people as a whole, in the same way that the late great Rabbi Meir Kahane did.  If that is the case, then my attitude is completely different.  Jewish people as a whole do need to be straightened out from time to time.

Having said that, it still depends on what we are being reprimanded for.  If anything, Rabbi Kahane was hard on us Jews not because we were not righteous enough for him, but perhaps for the very opposite: because we were acting TOO saintly, at the cost of Jewish lives.  We Jews are a wonderfully gentle, non-violent, extremely civilized people, which works most of the time, but not when it is at the expense of marching like sheep to the islamofascist slaughterhouse.

I suspect that this is what Chaim ben Moshe is reprimanding us for as well.  I am not aware of him faulting any particular Jew for not following the ritual laws close enough.  He probably saves most of his reprimands for Jews who care more about world opinion, than about fighting for our own survival.

WOW! what a double stander you have for Chaim and everyone esle. You just got Thur saying in your other post how careful we have to be in reprimanding someone.  And if you listen to Chaim he pulls the rug from under your feet when he reprimands someone. If it is wrong for us it is also wrong for Chaim.

Rivera, i have also been trying to figure this out, but the only answer I can come up with in regards to Chaim's personality is that this is the way he does it. However, whenever I listen to him carefully on the ask jtf's program, he has no desire in FORCING Jews to become more religious because he understands that not all Jews are ready for that move being part of a secular world..but that slowly but sure through education and subtle changes to the law that Jews will eventually go towards becoming religious. Therefore, he isn't like Moses in hitting rock..that in fact, Chaim is much more soft spoken than we even realize....that his bark is worse than is bite (sort of...)

It also leads me think about other things I'm afraid to mention on this forum about Chaim...his mental status.  I dont' want to say anything that he might feel embarrassed about, but I tend to notice he repeats himself all the time and I can't seem to understand why he does that...like OCD...

[Dr. Dan]

I have never heard Chaim ben Pesach call any Jew Kike and cannot even imagine him doing such a thing.  Of course I am against anybody calling Jews by such a disparaging name, yet I would have to see the context in which he said it, before I judge his words.

kyke..heh..it's just a name...

I personally prefer to call left wing Jews, Jews with good intentions, but going about it the wrong way.

[JewishTeddyBear]

Calling a Jew a Kike, or a Black the N word, is simply wrong, period.  There is no excuse for it.

That is amazing that this week's Torah portion talks about the very subject that I brought up, how Moses was not let into the land of Israel because he hit the rock instead of talking to it.

As it so happens, I once wrote a letter to Rabbi Kahane, to tell him that while I agreed with his essential message, that it might be more universally accepted if he presented it in a softer manner.  He wrote back rejecting what I said, saying that he has his way of doing things that he feels is the right thing to do.

Today I was at a Rabbi's house where I faced a similar situation.  The Rabbi had several young women over as guests; I was his only male guest.  Lucky me, right? 

Well, anyway, at one point, one of the young women, although she claimed to be an even more politically conservative person than I was, was also pro-abortion, and pro-euthanasia.  In other words, she supported the right of mothers to get doctors to murder their helpless unborn babies, and the right of families to kill of the elderly in their family, if that elderly person is just too inconvenient for them to take care of.  She likewise supported the taking of the life of Terri Schiavo.

Well, I was completely shocked and outraged that a Jewish woman who is supposedly religious (although she is new at it), would have such anti-life, and therefore anti-Torah values.  But I was also a guest at the house, and besides, this woman had treated me with the utmost respect, so I really had to use all my self-control to simply not blow up at her and tell her what a horrible lack of values she has, how she is embracing death the way the moslems do and so on.  In other words, I had to find some soft way to respond to her, that did not hurt her feelings, because a harsher approach would have just made her more defensive.

Since it was just a Shabbat table, and not some classroom or debating society, the issue was not really settled at all, but maybe by her seeing my shocked reaction, a part of her might realize that her views are not exactly kosher.

[Dr. Dan]

listen, everyone has a certain way of reacting to certain things.  Maybe the smartest thing to do with someone that you disagree with is not to show disagreement, but to keep asking questions until they stump themselves with their beliefs...but you have to be really smart to be able to do that

[decimos]

those who cannot debate,defame...some one important said that!

[Daniel]

I thought about this a few times myself. You can easily tell who's shomer shabbos and who's not by seeing who posts on here during the sabbath

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...I thought about this a few times myself. You can easily tell who's shomer shabbos and who's not by seeing who posts on here during the sabbath..."

Not necessarily...

Posts could emanate from anywhere on the planet.

The time in Europe is not the same as the time in U.S.A., which is not the same as the time in Eretz Yisrael, which has a different time zone than Taiwan, R.O.C....!

Countries follow different time zones from each other, and a single country may contain several different time zones!

Not to mention the fact that in cyberspace someone who keys in "I am a Jew / non-Jew / Catholic / Serb / Asian / male / female / etc...."  could be any and/or none of the above.

signed,
Jerome "Hacker" Jones, Jr.

[Daniel]

Re:  "...I thought about this a few times myself. You can easily tell who's shomer shabbos and who's not by seeing who posts on here during the sabbath..."

Not necessarily...

Posts could emanate from anywhere on the planet.

The time in Europe is not the same as the time in U.S.A., which is not the same as the time in Eretz Yisrael, which has a different time zone than Taiwan, R.O.C....!

Countries follow different time zones from each other, and a single country may contain several different time zones!

Not to mention the fact that in cyberspace someone who keys in "I am a Jew / non-Jew / Catholic / Serb / Asian / male / female / etc...."  could be any and/or none of the above.

signed,
Jerome "Hacker" Jones, Jr.

That's an excellent point. But for anyone who lives in the United States and is Jewish and we see that person posting in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, I think it's fair to conclude that that person is not shomer shabbos.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...But for anyone who lives in the United States and is Jewish and we see that person posting in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, I think it's fair to conclude that that person is not shomer shabbos..."

One day I complained to a brilliant Lubavitcher Rabbi about fellow Jews who had no interest in Torah and preferred to live as non-Jews.

He told me that I should be concerned only with my own spiritual condition.

A seemingly abrupt answer, but the correct answer.

 
 
 

[Rivera]

Re:  "...But for anyone who lives in the United States and is Jewish and we see that person posting in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, I think it's fair to conclude that that person is not shomer shabbos..."

One day I complained to a brilliant Lubavitcher Rabbi about fellow Jews who had no interest in Torah and preferred to live as non-Jews.

He told me that I should be concerned only with my own spiritual condition.

A seemingly abrupt answer, but the correct answer.

 
 
 

That is interesting because lubavitcher is not concern with there own spiritual condition. they go around trying to bring Jewish people back to Judaism. you did the right to show concern for your brother!

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Would anyone who murdered someone else go on a publc forum and admit that they are a killer? Hey we are all sinners arent we?

[Dexter]

Would anyone who murdered someone else go on a publc forum and admit that they are a killer? Hey we are all sinners arent we?

You say that violating the Shabbat is like murder ?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Would anyone who murdered someone else go on a publc forum and admit that they are a killer? Hey we are all sinners arent we?

You say that violating the Shabbat is like murder ?

yes, maybe worse (in some instances), either way for both the Torah says that they deserve death.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

dexter-  Listin to

Seminar - December 20, 2006 - The Sabbat - Hebrew
(its in Hebrew- but its about the Shabb-t)

Seminar - January 11, 2006 - The Shabbat (this one is in english)


http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp

[Sarah]

Re:  "...But for anyone who lives in the United States and is Jewish and we see that person posting in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, I think it's fair to conclude that that person is not shomer shabbos..."

One day I complained to a brilliant Lubavitcher Rabbi about fellow Jews who had no interest in Torah and preferred to live as non-Jews.

He told me that I should be concerned only with my own spiritual condition.

A seemingly abrupt answer, but the correct answer.

 
 
 

Shouldn't that be the case for ourselves in general. Before pointing out the rest of the worlds faults, we should deal with our own.

[Nic Brookes]

By going on the forum you may be indirectly saving millions of Jewish lives by helping Chaim get to Israel!

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

By going on the forum you may be indirectly saving millions of Jewish lives by helping Chaim get to Israel!

You cant do a mitzva from an avera.

[Nic Brookes]

By going on the forum you may be indirectly saving millions of Jewish lives by helping Chaim get to Israel!

You cant do a mitzva from an avera.

If I knew what that meant I might react. I am a Christian, you see.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

By going on the forum you may be indirectly saving millions of Jewish lives by helping Chaim get to Israel!

You cant do a mitzva from an avera.

If I knew what that meant I might react. I am a Christian, you see.

You cant do something you see as good coming from something bad. Ex- You cant steal in order to give charity.( like robinhood).

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

http://dailyhalacha.com/ - under September 16 2007
 Discussing groups of sinners who forfeit their share in the World to Come

In Halacha 9 (listen to audio for precise citation), the Rambam proceeds to define the next category of sinners, the "Meshumadim" ("defectors"). He writes that this term refers to one of the following types of sinners:

1) A person who intentionally, habitually and publicly rejects one of the 613 commandments. Even if a person faithfully observes the other 612 Misvot, if he makes a point of publicly transgressing one Misva on a regular basis, such as if he intentionally wears Shaatnez (a garment woven with wool and linen) or cuts his sideburns, he is deemed a "Meshumad."