"ben david lo ba ad..." (sanhedrin 97-98)... (completed)...

[nikmatdam]

this gemora states that moshiach ben david (the messiah the son of king david) will not come until... (from sefer harayon).... "ben david lo ba ad..."

1) until the impoverished regime over israel ends... rashi on the spot says... "until they lack even a tenuous control over israel..." (vol.1 pg.319)...

2) the tikunei zohar (pg 144) writes... "there will be a jewish kingdom in pre-messianic times which will be ruled by a government of the mixed-multitude (the erev rav)... (also pg.319)...

3) until the goyim (edom) rules over israel for 9 months (pasuk in support brought about "birthpangs" and "layda")... (vol.2 pgs.836-7)...

4) until the jewish people will despair of redemption... (pg.834)...

5) until the arrogant cease from the midst of the jewish people... and until all the judges (evil) and policemen (corrupt) cease from among the jewish people... (pg.886)...

Hashem will remove them and thus purge the dross with lye and remove the base (lowlife) alloy intermingled among you... moshiach ben david will come to uproot this blight from within us...

6) until Hashem will rise up a king (gog) (bin laden, bush, ahmadinejad, the current pope... take your pick)... who will make them repent... (pg.790)...

rav meir writes here that this is mida k'neged mida... for we have sinned in trusting our welfare and survival to the nations and Hashem will cause them all to turn into our enemies without a single friend will remain among them... and when we see that we cannot rely on them (especially america) any longer... then and only then will we do tshuvah...

7) however until then... impudence will increase... torah and torah scholars will be denigrated and degraded in public... the most honored in society will be the charlatans... the gov't. will turn heretical with no one to rebuke them (no one will have the courage to do so) (or the rabbinate will be just as disreputable as the slime gov't.)... either way... poverty will increase and coins will disappear from the pockets of the people... (also pg.886)....

the hellenists (minim) will rule over our people and our land because G-d will determine that we only deserve a geulah b'ito and not one b'acheshenah... (a lengthy drawn out process with horrendous agony, upheaval and suffering... history of the medina since 1948 until this very day... as opposed to a miraculous redemption with joy and triumph)... (what a terrible shud... how very sad and depressing and heartrending that this is what are people are made to endure and undergo even after the holocaust... which should have been our final yisurim of this golut)...

and if this continues until the end of time... moshiach will not come until all the slime unjewish jews (erev rav) are completely heretical and none of them have any redeeming value... as of now alot still do have some good qualities and are not completely 100% kofrim yet... so in this case we are still in it for the long haul... we may still have a long, long wait... chas v'shalom...

rav meir says that heresey is born out of selfishness and arrogance... two charactertraits which are not in short supply today in eretz yisroel and among jews the world over... nebach....

9) (kohelet piece on separate post... coming)... nik. out...

[kahaneloyalist]

It does not need to be this way, if we do Teshuva Mashiach can still come the easy way

[nikmatdam]

correct... but rav meir said that so far we don't deserve it and have not been receiving a miraculous geula... or haven't you noticed all of the warfare and terrorism these past 60 years...? nik. out...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I belive that according to the Sefardim -the Mekubalim (Kabbalists) the redemption process we are in and will be is Beite (in its time) - the Hasidim say their will be a speady redemption process. (at least a few groups ex-Breslev), 
 I also heard from someone ( just someone who went to learn Torah in Israel for some time, not a Rav)- that Rav Kaduri said that Hevle Moshiach and Gog u Magog is all the problems that we face today- all the family problems - something that was rarely heard of before. etc.
- But regardless even if a sword in put on a Jews neck, he should never despair and loose hope.

Also Rabbi Nachman said that if you belive you can destroy, belive you can rectify.

[Dr. Dan]

as far as I'm concerned half of what was written has taken place in the last 2000 years...it all looks familiar based on our history.

Now, let me say something not so controversial because it is based on my last askjtf question..

STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHEN AND HOW THE MOSHIACH WILL ARRIVE!!! FOCUS ON YOUR LIFE AND RIGHTEOUS BEHAVIOR AND TREATING YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEING WITH RESPECT AND LOVE AND WITH WRONGDOERS, BY REBUKING THEM!!!  STOP WORRYING ABOUT IT PLEASE!!!!! LIVE YOUR LIFE...LIVE ON THIS EARTH...DON'T LIVE IN HEAVEN WHILE YOU ARE BREATHING..LIVE HERE..BREATH AIR...IF GD WANTS THE MOSHIACH TO COME TOMORROW, HE'LL DO IT. IF HE WANTS THE MOSHIACH TO COME IN 2000 MORE YEARS HE'LL DO IT...STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT...LIVE HERE AND NOW AND TODAY AND WORK ON THE 613 MITZVOT GD GAVE US TO FOLLOW..AND DO THE MITZVOT BECAUSE IT'S GOOD FOR YOU TO DO IT AND NOT FOR A REWARD LATER ON...ENOUGH!

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

as far as I'm concerned half of what was written has taken place in the last 2000 years...it all looks familiar based on our history.

Now, let me say something not so controversial because it is based on my last askjtf question..

STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHEN AND HOW THE MOSHIACH WILL ARRIVE!!! FOCUS ON YOUR LIFE AND RIGHTEOUS BEHAVIOR AND TREATING YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEING WITH RESPECT AND LOVE AND WITH WRONGDOERS, BY REBUKING THEM!!!  STOP WORRYING ABOUT IT PLEASE!!!!! LIVE YOUR LIFE...LIVE ON THIS EARTH...DON'T LIVE IN HEAVEN WHILE YOU ARE BREATHING..LIVE HERE..BREATH AIR...IF GD WANTS THE MOSHIACH TO COME TOMORROW, HE'LL DO IT. IF HE WANTS THE MOSHIACH TO COME IN 2000 MORE YEARS HE'LL DO IT...STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT...LIVE HERE AND NOW AND TODAY AND WORK ON THE 613 MITZVOT GD GAVE US TO FOLLOW..AND DO THE MITZVOT BECAUSE IT'S GOOD FOR YOU TO DO IT AND NOT FOR A REWARD LATER ON...ENOUGH!

you are somewhat right. We shouldnt worry about anything and we have to allways be happy, BUT when it comes to having a chance of bringing the Geula without punishments and in an easier way then its up to us to do it the best way possible- G-d demands it of us. - G-d says I give you life and death, you SHALL choose life.

[Dr. Dan]

as far as I'm concerned half of what was written has taken place in the last 2000 years...it all looks familiar based on our history.

Now, let me say something not so controversial because it is based on my last askjtf question..

STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHEN AND HOW THE MOSHIACH WILL ARRIVE!!! FOCUS ON YOUR LIFE AND RIGHTEOUS BEHAVIOR AND TREATING YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEING WITH RESPECT AND LOVE AND WITH WRONGDOERS, BY REBUKING THEM!!!  STOP WORRYING ABOUT IT PLEASE!!!!! LIVE YOUR LIFE...LIVE ON THIS EARTH...DON'T LIVE IN HEAVEN WHILE YOU ARE BREATHING..LIVE HERE..BREATH AIR...IF GD WANTS THE MOSHIACH TO COME TOMORROW, HE'LL DO IT. IF HE WANTS THE MOSHIACH TO COME IN 2000 MORE YEARS HE'LL DO IT...STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT...LIVE HERE AND NOW AND TODAY AND WORK ON THE 613 MITZVOT GD GAVE US TO FOLLOW..AND DO THE MITZVOT BECAUSE IT'S GOOD FOR YOU TO DO IT AND NOT FOR A REWARD LATER ON...ENOUGH!

you are somewhat right. We shouldnt worry about anything and we have to allways be happy, BUT when it comes to having a chance of bringing the Geula without punishments and in an easier way then its up to us to do it the best way possible- G-d demands it of us. - G-d says I give you life and death, you SHALL choose life.

So by being righteous and charitable and loving and humble, AND by rebuking thereby loving also AND being merciful, you are choosing LIFE....so live these ways and QUIT WORRYING ABOUT THE MOSHIACH!  Believe me, he'll come...whatever happened to the famous words "Ani mameeneem behlooma sheleyma...etc etc etc"?  He'll come....he'll come he'll come Gd willing..he'll be here soon...so quit worrying about it...do the right thing on this earth in this life..if you don't get to live to see his arrival, you'll have a chance to see him when you are resurrected because all your life you attempted to live righteously.

[jdl4ever]

Now, let me say something not so controversial because it is based on my last askjtf question..

STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHEN AND HOW THE MOSHIACH WILL ARRIVE!!! FOCUS ON YOUR LIFE AND RIGHTEOUS BEHAVIOR AND TREATING YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEING WITH RESPECT AND LOVE AND WITH WRONGDOERS, BY REBUKING THEM!!!  STOP WORRYING ABOUT IT PLEASE!!!!! LIVE YOUR LIFE...LIVE ON THIS EARTH...DON'T LIVE IN HEAVEN WHILE YOU ARE BREATHING..LIVE HERE..BREATH AIR...IF GD WANTS THE MOSHIACH TO COME TOMORROW, HE'LL DO IT. IF HE WANTS THE MOSHIACH TO COME IN 2000 MORE YEARS HE'LL DO IT...STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT...LIVE HERE AND NOW AND TODAY AND WORK ON THE 613 MITZVOT GD GAVE US TO FOLLOW..AND DO THE MITZVOT BECAUSE IT'S GOOD FOR YOU TO DO IT AND NOT FOR A REWARD LATER ON...ENOUGH!

It's not controversial, I think the same way.  That was your best post. 

[Dr. Dan]

Now, let me say something not so controversial because it is based on my last askjtf question..

STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHEN AND HOW THE MOSHIACH WILL ARRIVE!!! FOCUS ON YOUR LIFE AND RIGHTEOUS BEHAVIOR AND TREATING YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEING WITH RESPECT AND LOVE AND WITH WRONGDOERS, BY REBUKING THEM!!!  STOP WORRYING ABOUT IT PLEASE!!!!! LIVE YOUR LIFE...LIVE ON THIS EARTH...DON'T LIVE IN HEAVEN WHILE YOU ARE BREATHING..LIVE HERE..BREATH AIR...IF GD WANTS THE MOSHIACH TO COME TOMORROW, HE'LL DO IT. IF HE WANTS THE MOSHIACH TO COME IN 2000 MORE YEARS HE'LL DO IT...STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT...LIVE HERE AND NOW AND TODAY AND WORK ON THE 613 MITZVOT GD GAVE US TO FOLLOW..AND DO THE MITZVOT BECAUSE IT'S GOOD FOR YOU TO DO IT AND NOT FOR A REWARD LATER ON...ENOUGH!

It's not controversial, I think the same way.  That was your best post. 

Sorry, it just pisses me off when relgious Jews and religious non Jews start talking about this stuff....it's one of the reasons why I refuse to take my religiosity to the next level because I"m afraid to be amongst dreamers and not rational realists...I consider Chaim to be one of the few rational religious zionists...

[jdl4ever]

I am religious by the way.  You need to follow the group of Orthodoxy that you fit in to.  I know that there is a big problem finding the old time normal Misnagad Orthodox Jews as we are being replaced by the Chassidim and the Charedim but there were worse problems in the time of the Prophets.  Young Israel and YU type Jews are usually the Misnagdim types and they are good except for their political views, where they tend to be very left wing.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Its also good to learn from everbody. (the laws try from one group), but the mussar and everything else- different lessons and insights I think its good to learn from everyone (except if you notice a Rabbi saying something false and covering the truth and making numerous mistakes/ makes heritical opinions).

[jdl4ever]

Tzvi is correct, there is a lot to be learned from the different groups even if you don't follow a lot of what they do or agree with most of the stuff they say.  The early Chassidish Sefarim are very beautiful to read and can teach you a lot for example. 

[Dr. Dan]

hehehe, you're talking to a sephardic "conservative" Jew...of course i don't comply with the opinion of the conservative movement..

so now you have an obedient sephardic Jew who is observant, but much less than observant Jews who likes to learn and sometimes argue to find his comfort zone.

[nikmatdam]

danny my boy...

you may not know this... but rav meir kahane spent alot of time teaching about moshiach... he knew it was crucial in our lonely and orphaned generation to do so as an impetus for inspiring jews to keep torah and mitzvot and love the land and live there and try and implement all the things he called for as vital for our survival and so that the easier way for moshiach to come (or better yet for him to be sent by Hashem) would come about and spare us much needless and heedless agony and suffering... all because we stand up and are moser nefesh... self-sacrificing... for Hashem and His torah and His people and his land... that we are willing to risk our very lives to sanctify G-d's holy Name on earth and this is torah... the true torah observance which he tried arduously to teach us and was martyred attempting to get this message across... in fact many consider him (myself included) to have been moshiach ben yosef the precursor to moshiach ben david...

anyway... you just don't get it... we jews are not here "to smell the roses" we are here to struggle with our evil-inclination and with the evil in the outward world until we rectify the earth and make heaven appear on earth... as chazal say... esav and yaakov made a deal in the womb... esav would have this world and yaakov the next... only thing esav didn't understand is that this world in the here-and-now is supposed to be a part of that future world to come... and we are bidden to "make heaven live on earth..." (with body and soul by bringing the messiah) and not just wait until we die and go as souls up to gan eden... or even further wait to come back into our bodies with the ressurection of the dead and the final judgement of mankind... that's too long to wait... and the longer it takes the more jews die and good and decent people of all nations suffer and are persecuted by the vile verminous slime... and i for one will not rest (or die trying) until "heaven is on this earth..." nik. out...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

hehehe, you're talking to a sephardic "conservative" Jew...of course i don't comply with the opinion of the conservative movement..

so now you have an obedient sephardic Jew who is observant, but much less than observant Jews who likes to learn and sometimes argue to find his comfort zone.

Didn't know your Sefardic, if you want to learn many of the laws go to Dailyhalacha.com -Their is both Audio and written, their short daily Halahot (a few minutes each) - also their are Halahot according to a subject you can choose. (on the left side).

[Dr. Dan]

you may not know this... but rav meir kahane spent alot of time teaching about moshiach... he knew it was crucial in our lonely and orphaned generation to do so as an impetus for inspiring jews to keep torah and mitzvot and love the land and live there and try and implement all the things he called for as vital for our survival and so that the easier way for moshiach to come (or better yet for him to be sent by Hashem) would come about and spare us much needless and heedless agony and suffering... all because we stand up and are moser nefesh... self-sacrificing... for Hashem and His torah and His people and his land... that we are willing to risk our very lives to sanctify G-d's holy Name on earth and this is torah... the true torah observance which he tried arduously to teach us and was martyred attempting to get this message across... in fact many consider him (myself included) to have been moshiach ben yosef the precursor to moshiach ben david...

anyway... you just don't get it... we jews are not here "to smell the roses" we are here to struggle with our evil-inclination and with the evil in the outward world until we rectify the earth and make heaven appear on earth... as chazal say... esav and yaakov made a deal in the womb... esav would have this world and yaakov the next... only thing esav didn't understand is that this world in the here-and-now is supposed to be a part of that future world to come... and we are bidden to "make heaven live on earth..." (with body and soul by bringing the messiah) and not just wait until we die and go as souls up to gan eden... or even further wait to come back into our bodies with the ressurection of the dead and the final judgement of mankind... that's too long to wait... and the longer it takes the more jews die and good and decent people of all nations suffer and are persecuted by the vile verminous slime... and i for one will not rest (or die trying) until "heaven is on this earth..." nik. out...

I do get it....we ALSO need to smell the roses

however, if one needs to talk about the moshiach to inspire Jews that there is hope after all, I have no problem with that...it just seems that many religious people (Jews and nonJews) hope too much for this....and believe me, if it doesn't happen and they lose patience, it's more trouble and more dispair.

But i will stand by what i believe...we should ALSO "smell the roses"...how can one appreciate the physical creation of Gd if one's heads are in the clouds all the time?

but to each their own. Some find more peace by putting their heads in the clouds only...I find peace when I do both...head in the clouds some days...and smelling the roses other days. I certainly don't recommend smelling the roses only.

but don't tell me that all Jews shoudl have their heads in the cloud all the time and that is what our lives are all meant to be...that's BS!  If you want to keep the peace so that people treat each other well and to do charitable deeds and learn with a clearer mind, you better realize that some will act better in their skin than out of their skin...

lashana tova...

[Dr. Dan]

hehehe, you're talking to a sephardic "conservative" Jew...of course i don't comply with the opinion of the conservative movement..

so now you have an obedient sephardic Jew who is observant, but much less than observant Jews who likes to learn and sometimes argue to find his comfort zone.

Didn't know your Sefardic, if you want to learn many of the laws go to Dailyhalacha.com -Their is both Audio and written, their short daily Halahot (a few minutes each) - also their are Halahot according to a subject you can choose. (on the left side).

No offense, Tzvi...at this point i'm in a more secular mode than spiritual mode...I"m sure in a few months I'll go back to spiritual mode (and then back again on secular mode etc)

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

hehehe, you're talking to a sephardic "conservative" Jew...of course i don't comply with the opinion of the conservative movement..

so now you have an obedient sephardic Jew who is observant, but much less than observant Jews who likes to learn and sometimes argue to find his comfort zone.

Didn't know your Sefardic, if you want to learn many of the laws go to Dailyhalacha.com -Their is both Audio and written, their short daily Halahot (a few minutes each) - also their are Halahot according to a subject you can choose. (on the left side).

No offense, Tzvi...at this point i'm in a more secular mode than spiritual mode...I"m sure in a few months I'll go back to spiritual mode (and then back again on secular mode etc)

dont despair, I also once didnt keep Shabbah, didnt eat kosher and knew very little about Judaism, (I was raised that way), but you have to keep striving for perfection and if you want G-d will definitly help you. Even if you dont understand do things- actions influence the heart, then your heart will open up more and more and you will love it and the bad things you have done in the past would seem like a joke eventually, but its important to realize that "your a warrior fighting for your soul, takin from the world above down to this world below" (Mattisyahu ) - Seriously though belive in yourself, if G-d gave you the test he knows you can pass it and He's giving you the test and challenge becuase He wants to give you great reward.

[Dr. Dan]

hehehe, you're talking to a sephardic "conservative" Jew...of course i don't comply with the opinion of the conservative movement..

so now you have an obedient sephardic Jew who is observant, but much less than observant Jews who likes to learn and sometimes argue to find his comfort zone.

Didn't know your Sefardic, if you want to learn many of the laws go to Dailyhalacha.com -Their is both Audio and written, their short daily Halahot (a few minutes each) - also their are Halahot according to a subject you can choose. (on the left side).

No offense, Tzvi...at this point i'm in a more secular mode than spiritual mode...I"m sure in a few months I'll go back to spiritual mode (and then back again on secular mode etc)

dont despair, I also once didnt keep Shabbah, didnt eat kosher and knew very little about Judaism, (I was raised that way), but you have to keep striving for perfection and if you want G-d will definitly help you. Even if you dont understand do things- actions influence the heart, then your heart will open up more and more and you will love it and the bad things you have done in the past would seem like a joke eventually, but its important to realize that "your a warrior fighting for your soul, takin from the world above down to this world below" (Mattisyahu ) - Seriously though belive in yourself, if G-d gave you the test he knows you can pass it and He's giving you the test and challenge becuase He wants to give you great reward.

I like the way you worded, "...fight for your soul..."  However 4000 years of rules and interpretations no matter how special and good gets lost in the interpretation...and therefore, I just don't want to follow out of blindness and do the wrong thing if the rule was meant for something else...That's why even now I'm careful to take advice from learned observant Jews on how to act so not to lose the real point of what Gd really wants us to do...why do you think I keep arguing with you?  It's not because I like being secular sometimes. It's because the Torah is not out of touch with what goes on in life in this life..and when i hear something so far out and belongs in heaven, I react the way you have seen.

[jdl4ever]

I highly DO NOT recommend Baal Teshuvas reading only the Shulchan Aruch as their source of Halacha for the exact reason that Dannycookie was talking about.  It is like a dictionary that lists the laws (for quick reference) without catagorising them into what they are and telling you the Biblical verse they are derived from.  They will get overwhelmed by the amount of Laws, many of which are the recommendations of the author but are not even Rabbinical decrees.  They should try to read the Rambam instead since he lists everything in a logical manner, derives the laws from the Torah, usually clarifies or implies what is Biblical, what is Rabbinic etc and will make you understand everything vs. blindly following things and not knowing where they came from or what category they fall under.  I also recommend regular Orthodox Jews to try to read the Rambam as much as possible since the problem I stated above where most Jews don't know which Halacha is Rabbinic, Biblical, custom or Neither and get all confused is partially due to them only learning the Shulchan Aruch and the guy did not intend it to be used as a primary source, but a quick reference.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

actually that site I posted - dailyhalacha.com - brings its sources in Halacha. -Its allway best to learn more in Shul or in a Beit Midrash, but when your not doing that and are online for example (also to get a quick halacha for a question that comes up) its not bad to check out that site (if your Sefardi). Anyway isnt the Shulhan Aruh the most basic and actually leniest Halahic source? - You should check out the Ben Ish Chai- much stricter.

[jdl4ever]

I think the Shulchan Aruch is much stricter than the Rambam and lists a lot more non Rabbinical laws than the Rambam lists.  I don't like how he puts his own opinions, those he based on the Zohar, those he based on other commentaries, and those that are Rabbinical Decrees and Biblical Laws all together and he doesn't differentiate between them, rather he uses "forbidden" for all of them which gives Orthodox Jews the wrong impression that not wiping your behind with your left hand will bring you to hell, which is absurd, this is simply his opinion of what you should do but it is not required at all to do this and you certainly won't get punished for not doing his advice.  If he would have known the problem this would cause he would have wrote the format similar to the Rambam I think.  The problem is the Mechaber Zs'l just wrote it as a quick reference book and didn't realize that those reading it would use it as a primary source and get confused.