Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס”ד

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[Hrvatski Noahid]

When Arab Gentiles accept the Seven Noahide Commandments, they will prove their loyalty to Israel.

Are you sure that Yigal Amir was not guilty? Are you talking about guilt in the eyes of Heaven or guilt before a court of law? According to my Torah sources, Amir is guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

When Arab Gentiles accept the Seven Noahide Commandments, they will prove their loyalty to Israel.

Are you sure that Yigal Amir was not guilty? Are you talking about guilt in the eyes of Heaven or guilt before a court of law? According to my Torah sources, Amir is guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter.

huh?

[Yehudayaakov]

When Arab Gentiles accept the Seven Noahide Commandments, they will prove their loyalty to Israel.

Are you sure that Yigal Amir was not guilty? Are you talking about guilt in the eyes of Heaven or guilt before a court of law? According to my Torah sources, Amir is guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter.

He is punished for his stupidity which led to such a situation in which Israel is being judged every day by the media court. Of course he deserves to be compensated for the injustice done to him as well as all Jews who have been jailed unlawfully.

[ChabadKahanist]

I believe that Ben Gvir & his crowd are being punished by Hashem for refusing to help fellow Jews who were  having Aliyah problems while Ben Ari was in the Knesset with National Union & Ben Gvir & Marzel were his parliamentary aids. It took me almost 15 years & 50  Thousand NIS for a lawyer which I had to beg & borrow from relatives to finally make my Aliyah reality & Chaim is still having problems getting in!!! Now that I can finally vote I won't vote for these clowns but vote for either UTJ like the last time or the party of Yigal Amir's wife!!!!  Even though I am now a full fledged Israeli citizen I still have a vendetta against Ben Gvir,Ben Ari & Marzel!!!! Until they apologize to all those Jews that they refused to help & promise to help those Jews who are still having such problems if they get in eventually Hashem will continue to punish them by not letting them pass the threshold as well  as go through future such embarrassments like this most recent one!!!!

[Hrvatski Noahid]

huh?

If you make a coherent statement, we might have a discussion.

[Hrvatski Noahid]

He is punished for his stupidity which led to such a situation in which Israel is being judged every day by the media court. Of course he deserves to be compensated for the injustice done to him as well as all Jews who have been jailed unlawfully.

If a person committed homicide because another person was threatening his life or limb or severe torture, this killer has committed an offence and is a murderer and will be punished by Heaven. If you have a Torah source that refutes this, please share it. 

[Israel Chai]

If you make a coherent statement, we might have a discussion.

oh

[Hrvatski Noahid]

oh

If this is some silly game, I am not in the mood for it. I won't defend a murderer until someone convinces me he is innocent.

[Hrvatski Noahid]

I can confirm Hrvatski Noahid sources. We are learning from same books. It could be that Yigal Amir repented by now for his act, only HaShem knows. He studies Torah very seriously in the prison. And HaShem, blessed be He, gave him wife.

Bear in mind that the Torah Law for Jews is more restrictive, so the punishment for a Jewish murderer is more severe. An unrepentant murderer is an absolutely wicked person. I doubt that Rabbi Kahane supported murdering Jews who disagreed with him. 

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

If this is some silly game, I am not in the mood for it. I won't defend a murderer until someone convinces me he is innocent.

בס''ד

Yitzchak Rabin yimach shmo vezichro was a mass murderer of Jews. He murdered 16 Jewish heroes on the Altalena in 1948 in cold blood. Rabin as Prime Minister murdered hundreds of Jews with his Oslo policies. Furthermore, his treasonous policies endangered Israel's very survival.

Authentic Torah Judaism is not like Christianity or modern Western humanism. Judaism has din rodef (the law regarding a pursuer of Jewish blood).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If you make a coherent statement, we might have a discussion.

My comment was a question, and a very coherent one.  "Huh?" means I don't understand what you just wrote.

You cited him as "guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter"  according to your sources.  I'm asking you to explain this comment and cite your sources or basis on it because I didn't understand what you meant by the formulation you used.   No need to get butthurt.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If a person committed homicide because another person was threatening his life or limb or severe torture, this killer has committed an offence and is a murderer 

That's not what Judaism teaches.  There is din rodef, and about someone trying to kill, the Talmud says rise up and kill that person first

[Hrvatski Noahid]

בס''ד

Yitzchak Rabin yimach shmo vezichro was a mass murderer of Jews. He murdered 16 Jewish heroes on the Altalena in 1948 in cold blood. Rabin as Prime Minister murdered hundreds of Jews with his Oslo policies. Furthermore, his treasonous policies endangered Israel's very survival.

Authentic Torah Judaism is not like Christianity or modern Western humanism. Judaism has din rodef (the law regarding a pursuer of Jewish blood).

Chaim, your video said that Yigal Amir assassinated Rabin because a government agent incited and convinced him to do so. You didn't mention the laws of a pursuer.

I know that Judaism has the laws of a pursuer. The problem with that argument is that anyone can accuse anybody of being a pursuer. If leftist Jews believed that Rabbi Kahane's rhetoric endangered Jewish lives, would that mean that Rav Kahane is a pursuer, too?   

[Hrvatski Noahid]

My comment was a question, and a very coherent one.  "Huh?" means I don't understand what you just wrote.

You cited him as "guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter"  according to your sources.  I'm asking you to explain this comment and cite your sources or basis on it because I didn't understand what you meant by the formulation you used.   No need to get butthurt.

It means that a person who was severely pressured to commit homicide, like Amir according to Chaim, is guilty for murder in the eyes of Heaven, but a court of law does not have permission to punish him. 

[Hrvatski Noahid]

That's not what Judaism teaches.  There is din rodef, and about someone trying to kill, the Talmud says rise up and kill that person first

Yes it is. Chaim's original argument described a situation where Amir was severely pressured to commit homicide. His new argument about the pursuer is problematic for the reasons I stated above.   

[ChabadKahanist]

I predict a fourth round of elections!!!

[Hrvatski Noahid]

I predict a fourth round of elections!!!

Luckily you Zionists control the banks so you can afford so many elections!

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Chaim, your video said that Yigal Amir assassinated Rabin because a government agent incited and convinced him to do so. You didn't mention the laws of a pursuer.

I know that Judaism has the laws of a pursuer. The problem with that argument is that anyone can accuse anybody of being a pursuer. If leftist Jews believed that Rabbi Kahane's rhetoric endangered Jewish lives, would that mean that Rav Kahane is a pursuer, too?

בס''ד

1. For legal reasons, I am limited in what I can say about Yigal Amir. It is illegal to directly praise or advocate assassinations. There are many things which I would love to expose in both our Hebrew and our English videos, but I am forced to restrict myself because I am a law-abiding citizen and JTF is a law-abiding organization.

2. Under the laws of state of Israel (and the United States for that matter), Amir is innocent and has been unjustly incarcerated for more than 23 years. Amir was clearly entrapped by Shabak agent Avishai Raviv. When a government agent persuades a citizen to commit an illegal act which that citizen would not have committed without government persuasion, that is the definition of entrapment. An entrapped defendant is not guilty of the offense. The government is not permitted to manufacture crimes by convincing law-abiding citizens to break the law.

3. Amir did not want to kill Yitzchak Rabin but was constantly pressured by Raviv to do so: "Be a man! If you believe that Rabin is murdering Jews and endangering Israel, then you have an obligation to get rid of him! If you don't do it, then you are guilty of spilling innocent Jewish blood and of threatening Israel's existence." After repeating these arguments numerous times, Raviv finally convinced Amir. The gun which Amir used was also given to him by Raviv.

4. As far as Torah law is concerned, for legal reasons I can only speak in general terms. I cannot address the Amir case specifically for legal reasons. But in general, what you say above is liberal Western "morality" and not Torah values. Under your rules, if someone had decided to kill Adolf Hitler in 1932, he would be a "murderer". You also argue that a Jew cannot kill someone just because they disagree with him. Oh really? Moses ordered the Levites to kill 3000 Jews during chet haegel (the golden calf sin) just because it was their opinion that we needed an intermediary to reach Hashem during prayer. On Purim, we celebrate how Mordechai and the Jews in the Persian Empire killed over 70,000 supporters of Haman because of their views. On Chanukah, we celebrate the Maccabees who killed thousands of their fellow Jews because they embraced Greek Hellenistic culture (which was quite similar to modern Western culture).

5. There is no contradiction between advocating for Amir's release as I do in the video by asserting the defense of entrapment and also pointing out that Rabin was a mass murderer who imperilled Israel's existence.

[Hrvatski Noahid]

בס''ד

1. For legal reasons, I am limited in what I can say about Yigal Amir. It is illegal to directly praise or advocate assassinations. There are many things which I would love to expose in both our Hebrew and our English videos, but I am forced to restrict myself because I am a law-abiding citizen and JTF is a law-abiding organization.

2. Under the laws of state of Israel (and the United States for that matter), Amir is innocent and has been unjustly incarcerated for more than 23 years. Amir was clearly entrapped by Shabak agent Avishai Raviv. When a government agent persuades a citizen to commit an illegal act which that citizen would not have committed without government persuasion, that is the definition of entrapment. An entrapped defendant is not guilty of the offense. The government is not permitted to manufacture crimes by convincing law-abiding citizens to break the law.

3. Amir did not want to kill Yitzchak Rabin but was constantly pressured by Raviv to do so: "Be a man! If you believe that Rabin is murdering Jews and endangering Israel, then you have an obligation to get rid of him! If you don't do it, then you are guilty of spilling innocent Jewish blood and of threatening Israel's existence." After repeating these arguments numerous times, Raviv finally convinced Amir. The gun which Amir used was also given to him by Raviv.

4. As far as Torah law is concerned, for legal reasons I can only speak in general terms. I cannot address the Amir case specifically for legal reasons. But in general, what you say above is liberal Western "morality" and not Torah values. Under your rules, if someone had decided to kill Adolf Hitler in 1932, he would be a "murderer". You also argue that a Jew cannot kill someone just because they disagree with him. Oh really? Moses ordered the Levites to kill 3000 Jews during chet haegel (the golden calf sin) just because it was their opinion that we needed an intermediary to reach Hashem during prayer. On Purim, we celebrate how Mordechai and the Jews in the Persian Empire killed over 70,000 supporters of Haman because of their views. On Chanukah, we celebrate the Maccabees who killed thousands of their fellow Jews because they embraced Greek Hellenistic culture (which was quite similar to modern Western culture).

5. There is no contradiction between advocating for Amir's release as I do in the video by asserting the defense of entrapment and also pointing out that Rabin was a mass murderer who imperilled Israel's existence.

1. You know better than I how much free speech you have in discussing these issues. Yet I hope you understand that I can only address your stated arguments, not the hidden ones.

2. I agree that Amir was unjustly incarcerated, but I also believe that his action was questionable at best in the eyes of Heaven.

3. Again, I agree that Amir was innocent before a court of law because he was severely pressured.   

4. As Noachide confirmed, these are not my rules and we aren't discussing Hitler or the golden calf. We are discussing if Rabin's killing was justified under the law of the pursuer. If it was, that opens up a whole can of worms when it comes to Israeli politics because it means that killing your political opponents is justified as long as you show they endangered the lives of others in some way or other.   

5. True, but you didn't mention the pursuer argument in the video.

According to Torah Law, it is not permissible to save someone by killing his pursuer unless this is the only way to save the victim. Even if Rabin was a pursuer, the Israeli voters could have removed him by electing a new official.

[Noachide]

I removed my previous comment.

Even if Rabin was a pursuer, the Israeli voters could have removed him by electing a new official.

I agree with with this.

[Dr. Dan]

We are not permitted to murder someone unless they are about to murder us first.

There are/were a lot of evil murdering leaders in this world both body and soul. We can pray for their demise. However it’s all in God’s hands in the end. 

There is a time and place to be a hero but nobody today is nearly as righteous as anyone from the the tanach. Whether it was Moses, pinhas, king David, etc, we are no where near their level; we are not prophets nor judges nor kings nor etc to randomly kill or assassinate abominations (unless he’s or she is directly coming after us personally first).

Better to put your trust in God to execute His will

[Dr. Dan]

I believe that Ben Gvir & his crowd are being punished by Hashem for refusing to help fellow Jews who were  having Aliyah problems while Ben Ari was in the Knesset with National Union & Ben Gvir & Marzel were his parliamentary aids. It took me almost 15 years & 50  Thousand NIS for a lawyer which I had to beg & borrow from relatives to finally make my Aliyah reality & Chaim is still having problems getting in!!! Now that I can finally vote I won't vote for these clowns but vote for either UTJ like the last time or the party of Yigal Amir's wife!!!!  Even though I am now a full fledged Israeli citizen I still have a vendetta against Ben Gvir,Ben Ari & Marzel!!!! Until they apologize to all those Jews that they refused to help & promise to help those Jews who are still having such problems if they get in eventually Hashem will continue to punish them by not letting them pass the threshold as well  as go through future such embarrassments like this most recent one!!!!

At this point with no true kahanist / religious Zionist, best to support pro yeshiva haredi parties. 84% of immigrants are non Jews and to add on top of that self hating Israeli Jews and Arabs , the religious identity of Israel is going down the tubes. The anti religion Israeli parties are what could kill what supposed to be the Jewish State.

[ChabadKahanist]

At this point with no true kahanist / religious Zionist, best to support pro yeshiva haredi parties. 84% of immigrants are non Jews and to add on top of that self hating Israeli Jews and Arabs , the religious identity of Israel is going down the tubes. The anti religion Israeli parties are what could kill what supposed to be the Jewish State.

Agreed but what else to you have to say about what I said?

[Dr. Dan]

Agreed but what else to you have to say about what I said?

Those individuals you wrote about have major shortcomings. In my eyes they are just people with big egos. However I prefer  to have them around over the secular “right”, Lieberman and the anti religious, and leftists. I don’t have high hopes for the current “kahanist”. They are very unreliable. That’s why I would rather put my energy in the Haredi parties.

I want Chaim to be permitted in Israel. But if there is no one else that will do it, I say support all religious parties so that once he is permitted and if the religious parties succeed, Chaim can succeed.

A successful Zionist has to be a religious kosher Jew.