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Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Torah Talmud
« on: September 11, 2020, 01:03:12 AM »
There seems to be a lot of conflicting information on the web about Torah and Talmud.
Seems to be endless battles about how one is fake.  How this one is a fake Jew, that one is real, and such.

How about it?
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Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2020, 02:43:42 AM »
The commandment to circumcise Jews is "cut the "orla"" with orla being the bottom of your ear. Talmud gives you the vowels so you can read that sentence in all the ways it's supposed to be read, and explains the details of circumcision and why the foreskin is referred to as the bottom of the ear here.

Along came a group that decided they don't like some of Talmud, the Tzadukim or Saducees. That part cool, but for instance they decided you can't leave your lights on during the sabbath, because that's making fire. They also said well Torah says you should see the "tzitzit" - ritual prayer shawl with knotted fringes, so they make the four cornered shirt and then nail it to their wall and never actually wear it like Talmud says you have to, cause probably the dude didn't like it or whatever. They all died out because they were dumb, and we eat a traditional stew called "chullent" for whiteish Jews and "dafina" for browish Jews that we leave cooking all night long and then eat it warm in the morning and just let the stove stay on until nightfall, because Jews decided that would be a totally hilarous and awesome way to troll the Saducees because they had to sit in the dark and eat cold food.

A millennium or so later, some disagreeable politician in the exile somewhere near Russia decided he didn't like when Rabbis could tell him what to do, so he said he's reviving the Saducces and calling it Karaties now, and some of their stuff he takes, some he doesn't, he's the rabbi and people don't have to listen to Rabbis anymore that aren't him. They became snitches to get the nations to put restrictions on Orthodox Jews and not them so they could get more members, but obviously they just put them on them too eventually. One story was a king was hearing a snitch, so he said kay, I'll decide which of you Jews to oppress. Make a debate. The big Rabbi in the area didn't think it was worth his time, so he sent a student to go debate the Karaite snitch. The Jew walked in with his shoes in his hand, so snitch screamed "you see why we hate them king? He doesn't even trust you not to steal his shoes, oppress him please". The Jew said "It's not you king, I'm afraid the Karaite will steal my shoes because when Moses left his shoes to see the burning bush, a Karaite snuck in a stole them". "LIAR!", screamed snitch, "you see they lie get them [G-d forbid], we karaties have only been around for a few hundred years!". The Jew said "yeah, our tradition goes back to Moses, and like you said, you just showed up". King said "both of you get out" and the snitch didn't go annoy him anymore. There's like maybe 10k Karaites left in the world, and that's only because they made up that Judaism goes by the father and not the mother, so you can bring cash to a strip club and try to make a ton of "Jews". We don't marry them because of the doubt but if they say "we will be real Jews now" then we just make them say something and it's OK, we look in their family history in the religious courts and check to see it's real Jews and not like a guy donated his seed and "made" a billion schmews that aren't Jews because Talmud says they aren't.

Talmud was written by Rabbis that would make Rambam and Einstein sound like children, and a bunch of them were prophets as a side job. A bunch of them are in the actual Tanach (bible - Catholic stuff + not corrupted translation/text) and Catholics and their spin-offs like those guys. Talmud also has the debates on which book to include in Tanach, and Catholics like very much that they decided to use those particular books, and many books, like the book of Enoch, are not included in Tanach because the information may not be relevant to every generation or some other reason. However, Talmud also says that being a Jew is good and their religion is bad, because we still write more books in it now, so they aren't fans of it and say it is "satanic" and a lie. This would of course mean their entire translation of "the "old" testament" is a lie but they don't know very much about it.

To illustrate clearly, if you have not read Tanach in Hebrew, any other language in the world, you have only ever read a bunch of Rabbis opinions on what the most simple translation of a word is. However, many words in Torah are supposed to be vocalized several different ways to change the meaning of the sentence, and sometimes there are completely different words like orla that they just put the correct understanding of it, foreskin. My personal favorite Talmudic story proves that. Miriam was told to go throw the Jewish babies she was taking care of into the nile by the Egyptians. Torah then writes that Poua carried them away. The English/Mandarin/language that isn't Hebrew translation of that biblical verse is always Miriam and there is no poua. Rashi gives a deeper explanation of the Talmud's ruling here by saying that Miriam was given the honorary title "Poua" in the world of truth that everyone is filled with the greatest reverence for, because she cared about the happiness of the babies more than her own by saying "Poo Poo" so they would giggle. Look at that for a second, and think that when you also take care of a baby you do the same and look deeper. G-d forbid anyone should have a Nazi tell them to go kill a baby, now in that situation you are running and sneaking and hiding so the Nazi doesn't see you. Maybe Miriam was sacred of Nazis, but she seems way too incredibly hardcore for that. Either way, she cared more that they were happy, so she said "poo poo" and made the babies giggle in their Nazi faces. Remember now that a ton of Jewish babies were just thrown in the nile and people were sad. Here comes Miriam, we're all supposed to be the slaves of the Egyptians, and she's bringing them the comforting happiness of the laughter of children in direct, proud and open defiance to their evil law, great beauty to fight great evil. All the things that does to the heart. Then me and you are there in full health, and we see some Egyptian guard that isn't too happy about that. If we can't block his view, we're tired of being beat, grab him while I bash his face in the wall. Imagine the black slave camp in that crappy muslim island, and a women decides she's keeping the baby for herself instead of giving him up to be indoctrinated. All the people unite around a child's giggle and decide they're fighting back. Not all Egyptians were evil, and when they see an anti-death to babies army lead by the giggles of a rescued pack of cuties, they didn't want to see such monstrosities anymore and joined the Jews in their revolt. This explains why by the end of Pharaoh's refusals to let us go, he just was asking us to stay and not threatening us with work, we literally weren't slaves anymore by the end, the revolt of a couple giggling babies in the arms of Miriam got us freed. So there's a lesson that to save the babies she would get big reward, but since she did it with her whole heart and saved the babies while saying "poo poo" she went from 100% righteous to 10,000,000%(/100) righteous, so you should do good deeds with your whole heart, like give a small coin with a kind word.

All you have in your translation is Miriam and not Poua and the explanation so you miss my favorite story. If the people who hate Talmud studied it properly "l'shem shamayim" (for the sake of heaven), they would totally love it.

It's also extremely clear throughout the Tanach that you only are getting .1% of the story. For instance, Talmud teaches that men's hearts will be icy scared of saying "Hashem has no more plagues, ran out in Egypt", because when the Philistines stole the ark, they made statues of golden hemorrhoids (butt ones) and rats and sent it back as a gift as Torah writes. White you have no idea why they would want to make like a weird shaped ball that's hemmarhoidy from the written Torah, the "oral Torah" aka Talmud, explains that they said "Hashem was a ten-shot Hashem, now he's out of plagues so we can do whatever we want to Israel". Hashem displayed complete mastery over all levels of creation forever by giving all the citizens hemorrhoids in the cities where the ark was, and when they would go to the outhouse to poop painfully, rats would crawl out at the exact same time and bite the hemmaroids and they would bleed to death on the toilet. The debate on including that in written Torah ends with "it's too immodest" so it's just in Talmud, although of course what would be in Tanach was a completely divinely inspired part of Talmud. Torah just writes how many people died in each city as they moved the ark from place to place, but not how they died.

That part of Talmud is the part that discusses the Mishnah, which is way too profound for anyone to understand for millenia, so Talmud is Rabbis explaining Mishnah there. There are other things in Talmud that are not divine, just sort of what was happening that century. Like we debated with Greeks that the world was round because Torah says "He hung the world like a ball on nothing" and balls are round so it's a ball, and Greeks said it's flat and had some math that seemed to prove it, so even though Mishnah says the world's round, they said "must have meant it as a metaphor" and we all believed the world was flat until someone proved the Greeks wrong, and now we're back to the Mishnah on that, except for a couple thousand dumb Jews that hate Israel and don't let other Rabbis come talk to their kids or they'll see they're dumb, and whatever weird sects of Jews pop up and die out, we don't really worry about them. There's also whatever Rabbis write over the years till now, like "is electricity fire?" and the debate there.

Long story short: Hashem says "Torahs you recieved on mount Sinai" to Moses, and there's no second Torah, Hashem was saying Torah that he was given to write down and the oral instruction on what to do: that's Talmud. The massive army of American and otherwise Xtians that hate Talmud because their pastor or they read a Nazi poopoo page are simply trying to make up fake arguments to either convert Jews or more commonly, make people hate Jews.

It's easy to do it with Talmud because non-Torah scholars won't understand the point of it, and it takes me about a week to read a single page with the explanations so I actually know what I just read. If you put me in a group of Rabbis who studied the page in a day and I come after a week, the depth I get it reminds them of their five year old kids, and the advanced math in there requires levels of expertise I'm nowhere near capable of. So you have a mysterious book in a religion that most people don't know anything about, you can say literally anything about it and everyone will say "oh, kay yeah that's bad", it's like saying "the Masons control your house", what do you know about the Masons, yeah scary they're bad. Missionaries do it because reform Jews that they hunt usually know less about Talmud then they do and hate it twice as much, so it's easy for them to curse the thing that decided what words were in their bible to trick Jews into conversion.

I think I covered the topic pretty extensively here. If anyone wants to write the sources for what I wrote, that saves the world and I die a bit on the inside hunting names and numbers and not writing ideas so I didn't feel like it, you can complete it with this and take some of the mitzvah of studying Torah from this for yourself.

Talmud basically means learning, so write "Talmud Torah" and basically every Jew understands that as saying "Studying Torah".
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Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2020, 02:55:39 AM »
In a sentence: Talmud's the 3000 something year edition of the Jewish encyclopedia Britannica.
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Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2020, 04:14:28 PM »
Ok. some of that stuff is gross.  I think I understand  a little more now.

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2020, 06:26:54 PM »
There seems to be a lot of conflicting information on the web about Torah and Talmud.
Seems to be endless battles about how one is fake.  How this one is a fake Jew, that one is real, and such.

How about it?

Torah was given to Moshe from God. He wrote it down into a text.  With what is written came additional Oral explanations that he shared with the tribes.  (Because it is impossible to implicitly know what all the written statements mean and how exactly to carry out the instructions correctly as intended, or the rare cases that are not stipulated by the general rules that are sometimes given in Torah). There are numerous examples of commandments stated in the Torah that one would have no idea how to implement or what is being referred to without access to those oral explanations of what the words mean.  Over time, these oral explanations and traditions of how to understand and implement Torah grew and evolved into a corpus of legal rulings and traditions as propagated by those with the most serious understanding of Torah and who spent a lot of their time studying and interpreting it (prophets, judges, rabbinical scholars).   It was "compiled" into a codified/canonized oral text (Mishna) for the first time by Rebbe Yehuda HaNassi.  (This included legal precedent of decided cases but also minority or otherwise rejected approaches for documentation purposes and for enabling future flexibility by a Supreme Beit Din).   This codified text of Mishna also needed its own explainer and interpretation system.  That is called Gemara.   Together Mishna and Gemara make up the Talmud.     
Eventually both were written down and canonized as a written document in manuscript form as a transition from an oral tradition due to the pressing circumstances and danger of it being lost or forgotten in the massive upheavals during the Roman period, had it not been written down.

The Jewish law is decided from the Talmud which derives its decisions from verses of the Torah and other methodological mechanisms of interpretation either conveyed by Moshe originally or formulated over time by the greatest Torah scholars. To explain the connection between scholars of Rebbe Yehuda haNassi's era for example and those who came before ->  those experts and scholars of Torah began as a circle around Moshe but obviously as each generation died, the leadership was passed on as well.   

There are a number of examples of Torah commandments that one could have no idea how to implement without access to an oral tradition like the Talmud.  At the same time, the Talmud treats Torah verses as sacrosanct and not something that can be ever contradicted.  Interpreted in a good-faith effort yes, but disagreement, dismissal, or rejection no.  Torah verses have the highest legal authority within the gemara legal system of Jewish law (also called Halacha), for obvious reasons.

Both Torah and Talmud are as real as it gets.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2020, 06:29:44 PM »
Ok. some of that stuff is gross.  I think I understand  a little more now.

A ton of stuff like that, "this is the real story, but we're just keeping it in this book and not including it in Torah because it's gross", and of course that was divinely planned out in the first place so that certain information wouldn't be talked about forever. Little kids need to understand that G-d loves them and not completely that he controls all things and events in existence to the point that he can send toilet butt-biting rats.
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Offline AsheDina

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2020, 01:26:30 PM »

Im pretty much ethnic Hebrew only. Most of my fam is non practicing Christian.
But, my online life is spent fighting Jew hating psychos.

In my studies, I found this helpful link;  http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/

Some may agree, some not.
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2020, 02:21:23 PM »
how does zohar and kabbalah tie into this?


Torah was given to Moshe from God. He wrote it down into a text.  With what is written came additional Oral explanations that he shared with the tribes.  (Because it is impossible to implicitly know what all the written statements mean and how exactly to carry out the instructions correctly as intended, or the rare cases that are not stipulated by the general rules that are sometimes given in Torah). There are numerous examples of commandments stated in the Torah that one would have no idea how to implement or what is being referred to without access to those oral explanations of what the words mean.  Over time, these oral explanations and traditions of how to understand and implement Torah grew and evolved into a corpus of legal rulings and traditions as propagated by those with the most serious understanding of Torah and who spent a lot of their time studying and interpreting it (prophets, judges, rabbinical scholars).   It was "compiled" into a codified/canonized oral text (Mishna) for the first time by Rebbe Yehuda HaNassi.  (This included legal precedent of decided cases but also minority or otherwise rejected approaches for documentation purposes and for enabling future flexibility by a Supreme Beit Din).   This codified text of Mishna also needed its own explainer and interpretation system.  That is called Gemara.   Together Mishna and Gemara make up the Talmud.     
Eventually both were written down and canonized as a written document in manuscript form as a transition from an oral tradition due to the pressing circumstances and danger of it being lost or forgotten in the massive upheavals during the Roman period, had it not been written down.

The Jewish law is decided from the Talmud which derives its decisions from verses of the Torah and other methodological mechanisms of interpretation either conveyed by Moshe originally or formulated over time by the greatest Torah scholars. To explain the connection between scholars of Rebbe Yehuda haNassi's era for example and those who came before ->  those experts and scholars of Torah began as a circle around Moshe but obviously as each generation died, the leadership was passed on as well.   

There are a number of examples of Torah commandments that one could have no idea how to implement without access to an oral tradition like the Talmud.  At the same time, the Talmud treats Torah verses as sacrosanct and not something that can be ever contradicted.  Interpreted in a good-faith effort yes, but disagreement, dismissal, or rejection no.  Torah verses have the highest legal authority within the gemara legal system of Jewish law (also called Halacha), for obvious reasons.

Both Torah and Talmud are as real as it gets.
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2020, 10:07:04 PM »
how does zohar and kabbalah tie into this?

Not everyone will agree with me, but my view is that zohar/kabalah is a brand of hashkafa which was developed over time by mystics.  It began with private circles of study (perhaps in the era of Rashbi) and was eventually formalized into a text by Moshe De Leon around the year 1300 that we today know as Zohar.  There are a considerable number of poskim through the ages who asserted that kaballah does not under any circumstances override halacha and cannot be used to contradict Jewish laws derived from the Talmud.  To my and their dismay, it nonetheless is used to do so sometimes, and especially because some of the prominent poskim like Shulchan Aruch held it in highest esteem as having that level of legal authority.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2020, 10:43:53 PM »
Not everyone will agree with me, but my view is that zohar/kabalah is a brand of hashkafa which was developed over time by mystics.  It began with private circles of study (perhaps in the era of Rashbi) and was eventually formalized into a text by Moshe De Leon around the year 1300 that we today know as Zohar.  There are a considerable number of poskim through the ages who asserted that kaballah does not under any circumstances override halacha and cannot be used to contradict Jewish laws derived from the Talmud.  To my and their dismay, it nonetheless is used to do so sometimes, and especially because some of the prominent poskim like Shulchan Aruch held it in highest esteem as having that level of legal authority.

It helps in a debate between two laws, but it if it contradicts Talmud or is more strict it is not used. You don't get a view in Judaism, you know or you don't, and if you don't you're ignorant or you have an opinion you think might be because of some good source to back you.

Rambam mentions it, says there's a book about the chariot (prophetic vision), and you can't teach it, and also everyone has fake versions today [then], so I hid the original in the spaces of the letters of the chapters in my original version. There's also different mentions of it in gemarra or otherwise, mostly being "you're not allowed to teach it".

In Spain was like the Talmudification of the oral law, they finally recorded it. They subsequently coded the entire thing to look kinda Xtian, because the Catholics were upset and burnt a bunch of us over it. Zohar is an authoritative Kaballah book, there are other books in Kaballah and some we trust a lot less because we know there were corruptions in the text to the point of idolatry. You get rid of Kaballah, you get rid of 95% of siddurim (prayer books) and 80-90% of practicing Jews at least. Just about every big Rabbi from the last 500 years too... Rav Kahane goes into alot with Moshiach ben Yosef... saying that Kaballah began with Rashbi is completely absurd too, it would be like saying the keeping of halacha according to strict custom started with one of the Rabbis of Mishah.

Explain the prophesies of Daniel, Jeremiah and Isaiah without Kaballah and most of the time it's obvious you sound like a child.
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2020, 12:49:57 AM »
It helps in a debate between two laws, but it if it contradicts Talmud or is more strict it is not used. You don't get a view in Judaism, you know or you don't, and if you don't you're ignorant or you have an opinion you think might be because of some good source to back you.

Rambam mentions it, says there's a book about the chariot (prophetic vision), and you can't teach it, and also everyone has fake versions today [then], so I hid the original in the spaces of the letters of the chapters in my original version. There's also different mentions of it in gemarra or otherwise, mostly being "you're not allowed to teach it".

In Spain was like the Talmudification of the oral law, they finally recorded it. They subsequently coded the entire thing to look kinda Xtian, because the Catholics were upset and burnt a bunch of us over it. Zohar is an authoritative Kaballah book, there are other books in Kaballah and some we trust a lot less because we know there were corruptions in the text to the point of idolatry. You get rid of Kaballah, you get rid of 95% of siddurim (prayer books) and 80-90% of practicing Jews at least. Just about every big Rabbi from the last 500 years too... Rav Kahane goes into alot with Moshiach ben Yosef... saying that Kaballah began with Rashbi is completely absurd too, it would be like saying the keeping of halacha according to strict custom started with one of the Rabbis of Mishah.

Explain the prophesies of Daniel, Jeremiah and Isaiah without Kaballah and most of the time it's obvious you sound like a child.

What?
There are cases where halacha went according to Zohar (or the minhag evolved to reflect zohar rather than the original halacha) even in contradiction to the Talmud and piskei halacha of rishonim.  One example I recall is the idea of tefillin during chol hamoed. There is absolutely no indication from Talmud that one shouldn't wear them, and yet the zohar created the idea that it is some form of evil to do so that is deserving of death! (Baseless claim). 

Zohar became extremely popular in much of the Sephardi world and in the chassidic world as well.  It uplifted people after the expulsion from Spain and the immense human tragedy and suffering that occurred from that, providing a window into understanding the suffering they experienced.

This trend of zohar's popularity unfortunately made it possible for the Shabtai Tzvi disaster and other nuts who followed after. 

You mention Rambam.  He didn't accept "kabbalah."   He just didn't.  There was no zohar then (because he was before Moshe DeLeon's time) but certainly there were circles of mystics in Spain and many places including the group of French Rabbis (Marseilles I believe?) whose views Rambam attacked most ferociously, oftentimes labeling them as irrational. 
Even the term kabbalah was defined by Rambam as something entirely different, relating to Oral Torah and received traditions, not a separate esoteric mysticism.

It is two different strains of thought.

Quote
You get rid of Kaballah, you get rid of 95% of siddurim (prayer books) and 80-90% of practicing Jews at least. Just about every big Rabbi from the last 500 years too..

No, that isn't true at all.  I don't know what you're talking about.

Quote
saying that Kaballah began with Rashbi is completely absurd too
This is what the kabbalists say.  Some of them even claim Rashbi authored the Zohar. (which is factually incorrect).  They purport to trace this corpus of thought back to Rashbi.

Quote
Explain the prophesies of Daniel, Jeremiah and Isaiah without Kaballah and most of the time it's obvious you sound like a child.

Huh?  You seem to be confusing prophesy with kaballah, and the two are not the same. 
I don't suggest kabalah or mystical thinking cannot explain anything, there are probably lots of things it can explain well, just as other hashkafot can explain many things well.  It does not mean either of them or any of them are the original intent of the verses, or are wrong, or are right.   That is what's good about hashkafa, it's not legislated and there are many ways of looking at things and explaining things in life, especially complex things.  Being too married to a certain hashkafa and projecting it as supreme over all others, as many kabbalists are wont to do, is a mistake that ignores all the weaknesses inherent in the given hashkafa, and pigeon holes into sometimes crazy thought processes.   That's why you have crooks selling magical cures and strange rituals, calling themselves Mekubels, often times very abusive and fraudsters.

Separate from that entire discussion is the HALACHIC ramifications of kabbalah/zohar, and in that case I am much more stringent in my view as I don't believe zohar has any place in the discussion.  And certainly some of the great poskim agree with me on that.  But some also did not, and they allowed that breach in the wall to occur, and the shabtai tzvi's of the world took advantage of this IMO.

I'm not sure if the end of your sentence was meant as a personal insult or not, but either way it isn't making your argument stronger.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2020, 03:31:51 AM »
What?
There are cases where halacha went according to Zohar (or the minhag evolved to reflect zohar rather than the original halacha) even in contradiction to the Talmud and piskei halacha of rishonim.  One example I recall is the idea of tefillin during chol hamoed. There is absolutely no indication from Talmud that one shouldn't wear them, and yet the zohar created the idea that it is some form of evil to do so that is deserving of death! (Baseless claim). 

Zohar became extremely popular in much of the Sephardi world and in the chassidic world as well.  It uplifted people after the expulsion from Spain and the immense human tragedy and suffering that occurred from that, providing a window into understanding the suffering they experienced.

This trend of zohar's popularity unfortunately made it possible for the Shabtai Tzvi disaster and other nuts who followed after. 

You mention Rambam.  He didn't accept "kabbalah."   He just didn't.  There was no zohar then (because he was before Moshe DeLeon's time) but certainly there were circles of mystics in Spain and many places including the group of French Rabbis (Marseilles I believe?) whose views Rambam attacked most ferociously, oftentimes labeling them as irrational. 
Even the term kabbalah was defined by Rambam as something entirely different, relating to Oral Torah and received traditions, not a separate esoteric mysticism.

It is two different strains of thought.

No, that isn't true at all.  I don't know what you're talking about.
This is what the kabbalists say.  Some of them even claim Rashbi authored the Zohar. (which is factually incorrect).  They purport to trace this corpus of thought back to Rashbi.

Huh?  You seem to be confusing prophesy with kaballah, and the two are not the same. 
I don't suggest kabalah or mystical thinking cannot explain anything, there are probably lots of things it can explain well, just as other hashkafot can explain many things well.  It does not mean either of them or any of them are the original intent of the verses, or are wrong, or are right.   That is what's good about hashkafa, it's not legislated and there are many ways of looking at things and explaining things in life, especially complex things.  Being too married to a certain hashkafa and projecting it as supreme over all others, as many kabbalists are wont to do, is a mistake that ignores all the weaknesses inherent in the given hashkafa, and pigeon holes into sometimes crazy thought processes.   That's why you have crooks selling magical cures and strange rituals, calling themselves Mekubels, often times very abusive and fraudsters.

Separate from that entire discussion is the HALACHIC ramifications of kabbalah/zohar, and in that case I am much more stringent in my view as I don't believe zohar has any place in the discussion.  And certainly some of the great poskim agree with me on that.  But some also did not, and they allowed that breach in the wall to occur, and the shabtai tzvi's of the world took advantage of this IMO.

I'm not sure if the end of your sentence was meant as a personal insult or not, but either way it isn't making your argument stronger.

There's no indication they wore tefillin, and chol ha moed is a holy festival too. An example where no Gemarra exists so you go by the Kaballah.

If there was another popular book then Shabtai Tzvi YS"V would have used that. It was a great time to release it like it was a great time to release Mishnah back then.

Rambam disagreed with much of the other people purporting Kaballah, but he does mention it, he does mention it's forbidden to teach it, and does mention he hid it where I said. There's a Rabbi on Cherem who thinks he cracked his code and people are mad at what he found.

Saying Rashbi authored the Zohar is like saying Moshe Rabbeinu authored Mishnah, it's not really correct even though that's the source. You see very clearly from the Gemarra on Rashbi in the cave that he learned stuff. I was obsessed with the significance of the repeated numbers in that gemarra for a while, but the Rebbe already explained the meanings there.

"No, that isn't true at all.  I don't know what you're talking about."

Most religious Jews go by Kaballah in their minhagim. Most prayer books are loaded with Kaballah. Most Orthodox Rabbis today go by Kaballah. You basically remove the majority of Jews in one second. You have a couple outskirt Rambamists to talk to. As someone who believes in what Rav Kahane taught, Kaballah is a serious part of that.

You keep repeating over and over that's it's hashkafa (a world view) and it's just complete ignorance of Kaballah. For instance, part talks about part of the world where it is light for six months and where it is dark for six months after. No world view there. It explains the vision of the chariot as the sephirot and what goes on there. The second you call that a world view, you're saying it's not a science that we can test, and Jews are learning comedy hour of a Spanish guy. You can identity politics all day with bad people that like kaballah, find me a Jewish community that keeps their beards on their faces as is without kaballah. You can say the same thing about any Jewish book. The Karaites do about gemarra, it's just a fallacious argument. It was not a personal insult. Try explaining the vision of the chariot with no kaballah, and you're not going to beat a ten year old in quality of explanation, you or anyone.

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Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2020, 02:58:19 PM »
OK I thought you said rosh chodesh not chol ha moed lol. OK I don't actually know anything about that issue, but are you of the opinion that our ancestors were hanging around the temple eating sacrifices with tefillin on?

So it turns out that telling you we do wear tefillin on Rosh Chodesh is pointless right now...
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 04:35:22 PM by Israel Chai »
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2020, 02:31:26 AM »

Saying Rashbi authored the Zohar is like saying Moshe Rabbeinu authored Mishnah, it's not really correct even though that's the source. You see very clearly from the Gemarra on Rashbi in the cave that he learned stuff. I was obsessed with the significance of the repeated numbers in that gemarra for a while, but the Rebbe already explained the meanings there.

You are ignoring very real debates in Jewish history and that still occur to this day.  Many kabbalists and so called mekubalim will say to you that Rashbi authored the Zohar.  Deleon merely "found it" (oh how convenient) and then published it for the first time.  Some people literally will want to rip my head off for saying it was not written by Rashbi.   You're correctly noting that that is preposterous, but you need to get out more outside the bubble you're in and see what other views there are.  You will be surprised at how many rabbis make this claim.

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Most prayer books are loaded with Kaballah.

Much like your previous comment that ignoring kabala would mean throwing out 99% of the siddur, this is completely false.
Nusach Ashkenaz predates Zohar.   By a lot.  All the ancient nuschaim predate it (not nusach Sefard, Nusah Ari, etc which are not ancient).

It is completely ahistorical nonsense to say that a nusach which predates kabbalah and zohar would have nothing in it without zohar.

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Most Orthodox Rabbis today go by Kaballah. 
So what?
Most of them do NOT go by kaballah to pasken halachic shailas. 
But certainly most of them generally "accept" kaballah as valid in general. 

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You basically remove the majority of Jews in one second.
  What exactly did I do?  By telling the historical truth I have removed Jews?  How?  I haven't done anything to anyone.  You can believe whatever you want.  I will be sure to avoid Mekubals, and I recommend others do the same.   And there are PLENTY of Orthodox rabbis who would say the same thing.

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You have a couple outskirt Rambamists to talk to. As someone who believes in what Rav Kahane taught, Kaballah is a serious part of that. 

What exactly do you think I said here that you find so objectionable?  I don't think you fully grasp the points I'm making and perhaps are - defensively - interpreting something else which I haven't said.


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You keep repeating over and over that's it's hashkafa (a world view) and it's just complete ignorance of Kaballah. For instance, part talks about part of the world where it is light for six months and where it is dark for six months after.


What does that even mean?

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It explains the vision of the chariot as the sephirot and what goes on there.
Precisely!  That is a philosophy of the spiritual worlds!!!  Literally a hashkafa about upper and lower worlds.

 
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The second you call that a world view, you're saying it's not a science that we can test,

Why would it be?  Torah itself also isn't a "science" book.  Neither is kabbalah. 

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and Jews are learning comedy hour of a Spanish guy.
Hehehe.

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Try explaining the vision of the chariot with no kaballah, and you're not going to beat a ten year old in quality of explanation, you or anyone.

You must not have read my entire previous comment where I included this statement: I don't suggest kabalah or mystical thinking cannot explain anything, there are probably lots of things it can explain well, just as other hashkafot can explain many things well.  It does not mean either of them or any of them are the original intent of the verses, or are wrong, or are right.   That is what's good about hashkafa, it's not legislated and there are many ways of looking at things and explaining things in life, especially complex things.  Being too married to a certain hashkafa and projecting it as supreme over all others, as many kabbalists are wont to do, is a mistake that ignores all the weaknesses inherent in the given hashkafa, and pigeon holes into sometimes crazy thought processes.   That's why you have crooks selling magical cures and strange rituals, calling themselves Mekubels, often times very abusive and fraudsters.

As for explaining the vision of the chariot, how do you not see that that entire topic is in the realm of philosophy (spiritual philosophy yes, but philosophy nonetheless).  This is why it's hashkafa.  It has nothing to do with Jewish practice or my practical life.  I might understand a chariot vision, or I might not, or I might have a good explanation of it, or a terrible explanation of it, but none of that has any bearing on what I do, which is to practice Judaism and believe in God. 

Basically, if it's not halachic, it's a matter of hashkafa.    Telling me tales about upper worlds is the definition of hashkafa.  So too any philosophies about how creation was conducted etc.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2020, 02:40:53 AM »
OK I thought you said rosh chodesh not chol ha moed lol. OK I don't actually know anything about that issue, but are you of the opinion that our ancestors were hanging around the temple eating sacrifices with tefillin on?

So it turns out that telling you we do wear tefillin on Rosh Chodesh is pointless right now...

The ancient practice of ashkenazim, who generally were not influenced in this halacha by Moshe DeLeon's zohar, was to wear tefillin on chol hamoed.  The litvaks still do this, although many of even the litvaks today conform to what has become a common practice in modern times not to wear them on chol hamoed.  The chassidim adopted the zohar recommendation as one of their innovations, so you will see as an example nusach sefard minyanim do not wear them.   And often times there are separate sections or separate minyanim for the tefillin wearers vs. non wearers etc.   And keep in mind, zohar says it deserves death! 

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2020, 11:07:22 AM »
Ok also missing amen on a bracha and like almost everything. Its like the sundown but still light peroid before shabbos as far as physical logic, is it holy days or not? Im sure those ancient ashkenazim also had tefillin that were different from what we use now.

In like 99.99% of cases we rule with gemarra then and on a few major things we go with kaballah. Thing is, i cant even read all the pages of gemarra by myself that are quoted much less kabbalah, so not worth much to debate this with me. One thing i can tell you is there is extremely useful information in kabbalah when you get to the practical side, and the rest starts making new sense.

The ancient practice of ashkenazim, who generally were not influenced in this halacha by Moshe DeLeon's zohar, was to wear tefillin on chol hamoed.  The litvaks still do this, although many of even the litvaks today conform to what has become a common practice in modern times not to wear them on chol hamoed.  The chassidim adopted the zohar recommendation as one of their innovations, so you will see as an example nusach sefard minyanim do not wear them.   And often times there are separate sections or separate minyanim for the tefillin wearers vs. non wearers etc.   And keep in mind, zohar says it deserves death!
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Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2020, 11:10:31 AM »
So im not all gay and cryptic there, one of many examples is my friends neighbor is a big Sephardic Rav, and one son was born in a coma. He brought some major more hidden Kaballaist, he made him offically change his name to five other names, the second he signed the letter the kid woke up like nothing had happened and i went to yeshiva with his brother.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Torah Talmud
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2020, 12:16:53 AM »
Don't think from that Kaballah is hocus pocus. Read "path of the just" by the Ramchal for a book entirely about kaballah with 0 mentions of kaballah so you can really see the spiritual levels brought down into the physical.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge