Science: the masks arent helping you

[Israel Chai]

https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2020/10/mask-madness-jack-kerwick/

Mask Madness

And what "the science" actually says.
Thu Oct 1, 2020 Jack Kerwick

During a recent conversation with a woman, a liberal Democrat with a characteristic animus toward President Trump, our discussion turned to “the Pandemic,” i.e. the Great UnReason of 2020.

Specifically, we spoke about the rise of Mask Empire.

I tried explaining that world renowned scientists—as opposed to career bureaucrats like Anthony Fauci—have demonstrated repeatedly that masks, particularly the kinds of cloth and surgical masks that have become a daily feature of the general public, are ineffective in preventing people from getting infected with COVID-19.  Masks can even be dangerous, both vis-à-vis COVID, as well as with respect to the exacerbation of other health issues.

In fact, even some of these bureaucrats have, at one time, conceded the truth of the science behind COVID and masks.

My friend, without missing a beat, dismissed these studies as “outliers,” “biased,” and “right-wing.”

Let the evidence speak for itself.  If anyone, with a straight face, can accuse the following researchers, studies, and organizations of the charges that my friend leveled, let them try:

Back in April, during the peak of The Virus, the New England Journal of Medicine—one of the most prestigious of medical journals and one within the pages of which Anthony Fauci and CDC head Robert Redfield themselves published this past spring—said this:

“We know that wearing a mask outside of health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection.  Focusing on universal masking alone may, paradoxically, lead to more transmission of Covid-19 if it diverts attention from implementing more fundamental infection-control measures….”

It continued:

“The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal.  In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic…fear and anxiety are better countered with data and education than with a marginally beneficial mask, particularly in light of the worldwide mask shortage, but it is difficult to get clinicians to hear this message in the heat of the current crisis.”

The World Health Organization (WHO) declared:

“[The] widespread use of masks by healthy people in the community setting is not yet supported by high quality or direct scientific evidence and there are potential benefits and harms to consider…the use of a mask alone is insufficient to provide an adequate level of protection.”

And this:

“Medical masks like this one [a surgical mask] cannot protect against the new coronavirus when used alone. WHO only recommends the use of masks in specific cases.  If you have [a] cough, fever, and difficulty breathing, you should wear a mask and seek medical care. If you do not have these symptoms, you do not have to wear masks, because there is no evidence that they protect people who are not sick.”

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published the following in Emerging Infectious Diseases, its distinguished peer-reviewed journal.  Using a whopping 14 randomized controlled trials (which scientists recognize as the “highest quality of evidence”), Jingyi Xiao and her esteemed colleagues at the University of Hong Kong determined that the utilization of face masks do not significantly reduce the spread of COVID.

“We found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks.  There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure.”

To conclude: “Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory confirmed influenza.” (Even more frightening for the already terrified, Dr. Xiao and her team discovered that neither are “improved hygiene and environmental cleaning” effective at preventing transmission!)

Anthony Fauci himself remarked in March, on the eve of the peak of The Virus:

“There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask.  When you’re in the middle of an outbreak wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better, and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection people think that it is.”

The Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, located at the University of Minnesota, declared that there was no data available to support recommendations for mask use by the general public:

“We do not recommend requiring the general public who do not have COVID-19-like illness to routinely wear cloth or surgical masks because:

There is no scientific evidence they are effective in reducing the risk of SARS-CoV-2 transmission.”

The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) agrees:

“Face masks should not be worn by healthy individuals to protect themselves from acquiring respiratory infection because there is no evidence to suggest that face masks worn by healthy individuals are effective in preventing people from becoming ill.” 

Face masks can pose health risks.

A study in 2012, conducted in Saudi Arabia, found that face veils of the kind typically worn by women in this Islamic land can significantly lower ventilatory function (VF).  And how could it not?  After all: “Free and unobstructed airflow in the upper and lower respiratory tract…is prerequisite for normal respiratory function.”

Interestingly, though, they noted that for all of the potentially negative long-term effects of wearing the niqab, because it is not worn as tightly as are surgical masks worn by medical staff, it is possibly not as unhealthy as the latter!

“Decrease in blood oxygenation level among surgeons has also been reported following the use of surgical masks during surgery lasting 1 to 4 hours, and long duration use of facemasks by medical emergency staff has been related to extreme stress.”

Also, given “increased physical activity…the temperature in the facemask microclimate increases, causing [an] increase in thermal sensations of the whole body, which decreases work endurance.”

Finally:

“The temperature of air entering facemask during inspiration corresponds to thermal stimulus to the skin under mask and affects heat exchange from the respiratory tract, reducing breathing, comfort sensation.”

As for COVID-19 precisely, the use of masks by the public, as Fauci himself insisted back in March, increases the risk of infection.  Dr. Jennifer Margaret Harries, a public health physician and Deputy Chief Medical Officer for England, agrees.

“For the average member of the public walking down a street, it is not a good idea…In fact, you can actually trap the virus in the mask and start breathing it in.”

The American Association of Physicians and Surgeons:

“Cloth masks will be ineffective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 transmission, whether worn as source control or as personal protective equipment (PPE).”

“Surgical masks are better than cloth but not very efficient at preventing emissions from infected patients.”

Ah, but what about the much vaunted N95 respirator?

“N95 masks protect health care workers, but are not recommended for source control transmission.”

What this last point means is that health care workers are largely protected against contracting an infection from patients, but patients are not much protected from contracting an infection from an N95-wearer.  This is undoubtedly because the N95 has an exhalation valve that is designed to make breathing more manageable for the person wearing it.

At any rate, even the N95, which is in small supply relative to cloth and surgical masks, is 95% effective at preventing contamination by particles that are three microns or larger.  COVID-19 is .125 of a micron.

The AAPS’s verdict is unequivocal:

“Wearing masks will not reduce SARS-CoV-2.”

We could continue.

The bottom line is this:

The science, as the left likes to say, is settled.  Masks, particularly of the kind that are in vogue among the public, are theater.  For the elites that mandate their use, they are a means to augment their power and exert control over the masses.   

[Israel Chai]

Morons of morons. In response to all the medical evidence that people with their stupid masks on their necks half the day were getting health problems from all the grease they breathe, the Quebec government now issues a directive on its signs that masks should not be worn around the neck, and removed by holding the white strings and not by putting your fingertips on the thing you're making an effort to breathe through. Obviously it has accomplished nothing, wearing your mask around your neck while walking around on hot days is a great opportunity for idiots to virtue signal without suffocating. And no more studying what breathing dirty sweaty neck grease all day does to you.

Then they decided that in order to keep something no one knows yet safe, kids in high school can't go out and play in the yard, they have to stay confined in their classes all day. With a face bag. The economic consequences are worse than covid, OK, but the health consequences of the mask that we'll see over the next 20 years are close.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Idiotic and vapid misinformation.  Masks do help cut down on transmission and spread.   Going maskless is a terrible idea, unless you WANT to get infected.  Then it's a great idea.

[Israel Chai]

Idiotic and vapid misinformation.  Masks do help cut down on transmission and spread.   Going maskless is a terrible idea, unless you WANT to get infected.  Then it's a great idea.

Going maskless outside? At least the government here puts signs that it's dumb to wear it outside. Also at this point you and everyone else knows there's no beating this thing, no one has ever dealt with anything this infectious and it's not going away soon. The at risk people need to be masked, for everyone under 49 years of age, your 0.02 chance of even requiring hospitalization isn't worth your entire street going broke.

There are other things you can get infected with besides a commie flu. Every day there's a new legionnaires death and a host of other less lethal respiratory diseases as a result of improper mask use. The general public has no medical training to not leave the mask on all day except when then hold it in their hand or on their neck, which they should never do. Besides causing more deaths than its saving for everyone under 49, 60% of all the businesses that closed down for corona are already bankrupt, and they can't afford to fix their teeth much less the rest of their medical bills. There will be tens of millions of deaths from the sudden jolt of poverty this caused when the markets react over the next hundred years at least. When you can't afford to take care of yourself medically to live long enough to be at risk from corona, bit late to stop this madness.

We flattened the curve after the first two weeks and everything after is causing and will cause a hundred deaths for every life it saved. You cause an economic collapse, you lose the power of police to enforce these death to livelihood measures, you have millions of people that are pissed off we destroyed the economy, and those vulnerable older people with pre-existing medical conditions have nothing to protect them. It's already started in places that were economically collapsing before, like Argentina, and you can observe the covid safety afforded to the elderly in Venezuela as an example.

Why do all your neighbors have to lose their jobs, all their kids not leave the house till they're 35 and all the working class guys left to rob or starve so a minority of sick elderly people don't have to take as many precautions? The left and the right in the covid mania blame the youth, they don't care, but I say the old people would have been fine locked down, and the rest of us take our .02% chance of hospitalization, and we'd all be immune already and you guys would be out, and still be able to afford the golf course five years from now.

Now to what you said. It's true they cut down, also wearing gloves with holes in them cuts down on your chance of contracting leprosy when touching lepers. It will still spread to the masked, you aren't going to mention that tidbit obviously, so the transmission will be slower and after slight mutations can occur, and now we massively increase the risk for second wave infections to individuals with immunity to the previous version. So now you're lulled into your sense of comfort, and make it worse.

As anyone with a brain knew, you couldn't give the population medical training to not touch their eyes, mouth and nose without washing your hands, so instead you decided to graduate them and give them all medical masks they don't know what to do with. And every time they just keep doubling down on the same failure and you say good job.

In the meantime, my machine to stop covid and also make fresher city air is near completion, and if people had looked for a business solution rather than a socialist one, like one I turned down to take the material in the Israeli mask that scrubs out bacteria and put it on chairs, walls and other objects in stores and arenas, we'd all be healthier, and less economists would have killed themselves to avoid the worse fate we all face when the government stops borrowing like a drunk gambler.

[Joe Gutfeld]

I already know that.  All the masks do is prevent you from breathing.

[Israel Chai]

I already know that.  All the masks do is prevent you from breathing.

... not exactly. The old people that are at risk should be in n95s that they discard every four hours of use and gloves at all times when they are outside. Since they can be made aware that this is a major life risk for them, they will virtually all make the effort to learn proper mask use and safety. Enforcing surgical masks or the absurdly counter-productive cloth masks on the general public is harmful and deeply ignorant.

[briann]

Idiotic and vapid misinformation.  Masks do help cut down on transmission and spread.   Going maskless is a terrible idea, unless you WANT to get infected.  Then it's a great idea.

If used correctly, yes, they can slow the spread, but it's very moderate.

But to say that people will 'DIE' if they don't wear them is wrong on so many counts.  Have you seen the updated death rates from the CDC of identified cases?
0-19  0.003% 
20-49 0.02%
50-69 0.5%

And these are of identified tested cases, almost all the deaths have co-morbilities, and the number of actual cases is MUCH higher, so the mortality rates are much lower in reality.

So yes, I may have a 1 in 10,000 chance of dying if I get infected.  But I also have a 1 in 103 chance of dying from an automobile accident.  And even if we spread that out over 50 years,  that's still 1 in 5,000 chance of dying in a given year.

And so far, this 'panic' and economic turmoil is NOT worth the 1 in 10,000 chance of dying after getting infected.  I think we should just focus on protecting those at high-risk... and the rest of us should live our lives how we choose.  Our reaction to this pandemic is beyond destructive.

[Israel Chai]

And Brain's death rate is trash. People who tested postive for covid a week before and die in car crashes are not close to the most absurd deaths. Fat people in NYC don't die from heart attacks any more.

In Brazil it's the same, right wing president so everyone who ODs on coke died on covid and it's his fault because he's fascista and totaltaria and let the covid do it and didn't even stop.


All politics and everything and everyone in there aside, that's the exact opposite way of how you behave with Hashem. Yes Hashem could have stopped you from doing something obviously stupid, but he gives you the access to the information before and if you don't learn he lets you learn the hard way because it seems Hashem might be happier that most people learn things instead of be lumps.

[Israel Chai]

Idiotic and vapid misinformation.  Masks do help cut down on transmission and spread.   Going maskless is a terrible idea, unless you WANT to get infected.  Then it's a great idea.

Your response is the perfect example of the kind of irresponsible self-gloating statements coming from medical happy hats. Going maskless where? In your already oxygen depleted "climate controlled" car? With which mask? When someone currently has corona virus, ask the average guy if he thinks the N95 should cover their nose and none will tell you the n95 is for people who don't want to get it not that have it. If someone is really at risk in the first place, they can make a snowman-head with masks and still get it from touching a water droplet with corona on anything and then touching even part of their glasses that'll be right with their eyes or a number of places. People that will actually get more than a dry cough for four hours need to be wearing those too. If you WAAAAANT to get infected, then you should not wear plastic gloves also because you're just as likely to touch something in a public place and touch something that'll touch a cavity or it directly for the majority that aren't trained for years to never do so as you are likely to get it from "going maskless". And why just one, still big chance you get it. I know dozens of people that make scrunchy faces when they say they're "medical professionals", doctors and nurses and stuff, that can't hang out five minutes for kiddush without three masks on, that they say is more safe. So if we're murdering people, why is 80% not murdering people ok? Shouldn't we demand 3 masks and say 100% not murdering and gloves?

Why not a face shield? The government here banned it, nope a mask to stop the droplets that the face shield stops. There are many other innovations possible.  What made you decide the mask was the solution here? Why do square head politically-connected medical groups with no creativity or understanding of economics and business get to decide the best product for a crisis?

We can both say what you want, most people in the west today are completely faggy and total morons and like being talked down to like babies like that. You can explain an issue and they are just upset you hurt their rotten brains with use, commands that you give to four year olds and smart horses make them respect you in the world of lies. I personally believe it's because they're conditioned to it so I'm still going to break down the issue.

The reality is the political-medical mouth flappers have double standards on safety from corona, the people making the corona laws have double standards where they don't have to obey and you do, they place double standards where right wing people have to obey the laws and left wing people dont, the media has double standards where left wing countries have a fantastic response and corona is almost gone always and right wing states it's all the president's fault for every corona thing, and you have double standards for how you judge your incomplete arguments and others, yours is the way it is the rest is misinformation.

[briann]

And Brain's death rate is trash. People who tested postive for covid a week before and die in car crashes are not close to the most absurd deaths. Fat people in NYC don't die from heart attacks any more.

In Brazil it's the same, right wing president so everyone who ODs on coke died on covid and it's his fault because he's fascista and totaltaria and let the covid do it and didn't even stop.


All politics and everything and everyone in there aside, that's the exact opposite way of how you behave with Hashem. Yes Hashem could have stopped you from doing something obviously stupid, but he gives you the access to the information before and if you don't learn he lets you learn the hard way because it seems Hashem might be happier that most people learn things instead of be lumps.

That's why I mentioned the 'co-mobilities', because there are a significant number of covid 'deaths' where the individual died from this 'co-morbility' and had questionable or even fabricated links to the COVID infection, and yet they still marked it as a covid death, in order to receive funding from the government.  This was very common.
 
Also, deaths from the regular flu are WAY down in 2020, and this discrepancy is not found in any other western country.

The best way to get a sense of total deaths from COVID infections, is to compare 'excess deaths', so basically comparing the increase of deaths from this year to trailing years, but those still have to be discounted by non-covid 'lock-down' deaths, such as the abnormal increases in dementia related deaths, as well as the increased suicides, and preventable deaths where individuals were frightened to do life-saving checkups/procedures out of fear of infection.  Unfortunately, my dad falls into this last category.

[Israel Chai]

That's why I mentioned the 'co-mobilities', because there are a significant number of covid 'deaths' where the individual died from this 'co-morbility' and had questionable or even fabricated links to the COVID infection, and yet they still marked it as a covid death, in order to receive funding from the government.  This was very common.
 
Also, deaths from the regular flu are WAY down in 2020, and this discrepancy is not found in any other western country.

The best way to get a sense of total deaths from COVID infections, is to compare 'excess deaths', so basically comparing the increase of deaths from this year to trailing years, but those still have to be discounted by non-covid 'lock-down' deaths, such as the abnormal increases in dementia related deaths, as well as the increased suicides, and preventable deaths where individuals were frightened to do life-saving checkups/procedures out of fear of infection.  Unfortunately, my dad falls into this last category.

Baruch dayan ha emet.

He was right though, many of the corona tests from China especially were ineffective, and contaminated with coronavirus. The South Koreans still have the most effective corona virus test.

However, people need to understand that with hospitalization and treatment, their risk of dying from corona is extremely low, especially if detected early on. Therefore if you G-d forbid get infected while going for a test, you're in the right place to treat it. The infection rates of corona are so absurdly high that you probably will not be safe from it even if you hide in your home, wear three masks in your car, and try to triple all the other government recommendations. It's not like an acute meningitis outbreak where you die in six hours, so better not to risk walking to get the vaccine in an infected area. If you get it on the way to the hospital vs at home, that's as positive as getting the chicken pox as a child vs an adult. It's the safest way it could happen, not that you want it to happen either way.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If used correctly, yes, they can slow the spread, but it's very moderate.

But to say that people will 'DIE' if they don't wear them is wrong on so many counts.  Have you seen the updated death rates from the CDC of identified cases?
0-19  0.003% 
20-49 0.02%
50-69 0.5%

And these are of identified tested cases, almost all the deaths have co-morbilities, and the number of actual cases is MUCH higher, so the mortality rates are much lower in reality.

So yes, I may have a 1 in 10,000 chance of dying if I get infected.  But I also have a 1 in 103 chance of dying from an automobile accident.  And even if we spread that out over 50 years,  that's still 1 in 5,000 chance of dying in a given year.

And so far, this 'panic' and economic turmoil is NOT worth the 1 in 10,000 chance of dying after getting infected.  I think we should just focus on protecting those at high-risk... and the rest of us should live our lives how we choose.  Our reaction to this pandemic is beyond destructive.

Try reading before responding.

I said that people would be more likely to get INFECTED if they choose not to wear a mask.  I did not say DIE.   

But obviously, getting infected has higher chances of dying from COVID19 than not getting infected.   But chances of dying depend on many factors including age, gender, health conditions, etc.

Your idea that masks only slow the spread "moderately" is completely pulled from your rear.  It is quite possible a person who would otherwise die from a covid infection could potentially NOT DIE from it if they had a mask on when they caught it.  Because the mask decreases the dose of exposure when they are exposed.   

Your reply had nothing to do with what I said.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Your response is the perfect example of the kind of irresponsible self-gloating statements coming from medical happy hats.

I don't know why you're crying so much, but your personal insults and ad hominem don't make your arguments better.  They still suck.

Going maskless where? In your already oxygen depleted "climate controlled" car? With which mask? When someone currently has corona virus, ask the average guy if he thinks the N95 should cover their nose and none will tell you the n95 is for people who don't want to get it not that have it. If someone is really at risk in the first place, they can make a snowman-head with masks and still get it from touching a water droplet with corona on anything and then touching even part of their glasses that'll be right with their eyes or a number of places. People that will actually get more than a dry cough for four hours need to be wearing those too. If you WAAAAANT to get infected, then you should not wear plastic gloves also because you're just as likely to touch something in a public place and touch something that'll touch a cavity or it directly for the majority that aren't trained for years to never do so as you are likely to get it from "going maskless". And why just one, still big chance you get it. I know dozens of people that make scrunchy faces when they say they're "medical professionals", doctors and nurses and stuff, that can't hang out five minutes for kiddush without three masks on, that they say is more safe. So if we're murdering people, why is 80% not murdering people ok? Shouldn't we demand 3 masks and say 100% not murdering and gloves?

There is too much rambling here to spend time on (oxygen depleted car?  What in the world are you talking about?)
The bottom line is that it's not difficult to wear a mask correctly, and no one is calling on people to wear them incorrectly.  Just like no one is calling on people to wash their hands incorrectly.  CDC put out instructions for those who don't understand hand washing on how to wash your hands, for example. 

"Masks are bad because people will wear them incorrectly!"  is a straw man argument.  No one advocates wearing them incorrectly.
And you know this line of argument is just you grasping at straws.
Either that or you're unable to make up your mind whether masks actually do work, but only work when worn properly, or do they NOT work when worn correctly, which you argued here unsuccessfully before.   
You previously tried to claim that wearing a mask lowers the wearer's oxygen saturation, but that was false information.

Why not a face shield? The government here banned it, nope a mask to stop the droplets that the face shield stops. There are many other innovations possible.

The face shield blocks some spittle coming to the wearer in a straight line in front of them, but allows the virus from a wearer to go around the shield to all the open space when they breathe, talk, yell, sing, sneeze, cough, etc.  If everyone wears a mask with some sealing around the face, it keeps everyone's germs in and decreases transmission.  If you look at indoor superspreading events as an example, the virus accumulates in the air from infected people breathing, speaking, coughing, singing, etc maskless.   A guy standing in there with a faceshield would have no protection from that even for himself.  Because the virus is airborne. With a mask around the face there is some filter layer for almost all the air you breathe in to go through first.   

Of course there could be innovations incorporating shields in a different way to eliminate all the empty space, sure.  Who said you can't innovate?

I am only arguing against the propaganda which tries to convince people that masks don't work.  That's dumb.

    What made you decide the mask was the solution here?

It is better than not wearing them because fewer people get infected and fewer die.  And as an intervention it causes zero harm and really isn't a big deal to do it.  Only drama queens have a big problem with putting one on, and they scream all day about it on the internet (but in real life most of those same people comply with the regulations and are wearing a mask in the grocery store like everyone else is).

Why do square head politically-connected medical groups with no creativity or understanding of economics and business get to decide the best product for a crisis?

Am I a "medical group" now?   
Why do you keep insisting that what medical groups decided upon is so wrong, yet you have no arguments for how it is wrong or what a better alternative would be.   

We can both say what you want, most people in the west today are completely faggy and total morons and like being talked down to like babies like that. You can explain an issue and they are just upset you hurt their rotten brains with use, commands that you give to four year olds and smart horses make them respect you in the world of lies. I personally believe it's because they're conditioned to it so I'm still going to break down the issue. 

More verbal diarrhea and insults.  This isn't an argument.

The reality is the political-medical mouth flappers have double standards on safety from corona, the people making the corona laws have double standards where they don't have to obey and you do, they place double standards where right wing people have to obey the laws and left wing people dont, the media has double standards where left wing countries have a fantastic response and corona is almost gone always and right wing states it's all the president's fault for every corona thing, and you have double standards for how you judge your incomplete arguments and others, yours is the way it is the rest is misinformation.

Hypocrites always employ double standards.  But you see what happened to the White House when they did that.  It eventually caught up to them, and they had an outbreak of infections, including the President.

All I am doing is refuting misinformation to help JTFers protect themselves.   I am not advocating economic plans or policies, shutdown measures.  I don't make the rules and I have no influence on those who do.   What I do know about is science, particularly immunology and biology, I understand to some degree how viruses work and have taken graduate courses specializing in these topics, and I share my knowledge.  So the accusation of hypocrisy has nothing to do with me.  I practice everything I preach here.  I try to protect myself and my friends and family to the best of my ability.  There is nothing wrong with that.

The evidence suggests that wearing a mask will help a person avoid getting infected, and in the case of getting infected quite possibly limit their exposure (which could create a scenario of lower viral load and thus an easier job for their immune system to fight the infection).  Masks are a useful tool against an airborne virus.  So that is what makes masks a good idea, especially when they cost next to nothing to implement.

[AsheDina]

I dont wear the mask.
I HATE it.
I feel like its dehumanizing.

[Israel Chai]

I don't know why you're crying so much, but your personal insults and ad hominem don't make your arguments better.  They still suck.
There is too much rambling here to spend time on (oxygen depleted car?  What in the world are you talking about?)
The bottom line is that it's not difficult to wear a mask correctly, and no one is calling on people to wear them incorrectly.  Just like no one is calling on people to wash their hands incorrectly.  CDC put out instructions for those who don't understand hand washing on how to wash your hands, for example. 

"Masks are bad because people will wear them incorrectly!"  is a straw man argument.  No one advocates wearing them incorrectly.
And you know this line of argument is just you grasping at straws.
Either that or you're unable to make up your mind whether masks actually do work, but only work when worn properly, or do they NOT work when worn correctly, which you argued here unsuccessfully before.   
You previously tried to claim that wearing a mask lowers the wearer's oxygen saturation, but that was false information.

The face shield blocks some spittle coming to the wearer in a straight line in front of them, but allows the virus from a wearer to go around the shield to all the open space when they breathe, talk, yell, sing, sneeze, cough, etc.  If everyone wears a mask with some sealing around the face, it keeps everyone's germs in and decreases transmission.  If you look at indoor superspreading events as an example, the virus accumulates in the air from infected people breathing, speaking, coughing, singing, etc maskless.   A guy standing in there with a faceshield would have no protection from that even for himself.  Because the virus is airborne. With a mask around the face there is some filter layer for almost all the air you breathe in to go through first.   

Of course there could be innovations incorporating shields in a different way to eliminate all the empty space, sure.  Who said you can't innovate?

I am only arguing against the propaganda which tries to convince people that masks don't work.  That's dumb.
It is better than not wearing them because fewer people get infected and fewer die.  And as an intervention it causes zero harm and really isn't a big deal to do it.  Only drama queens have a big problem with putting one on, and they scream all day about it on the internet (but in real life most of those same people comply with the regulations and are wearing a mask in the grocery store like everyone else is).

Am I a "medical group" now?   
Why do you keep insisting that what medical groups decided upon is so wrong, yet you have no arguments for how it is wrong or what a better alternative would be.   



More verbal diarrhea and insults.  This isn't an argument.

Hypocrites always employ double standards.  But you see what happened to the White House when they did that.  It eventually caught up to them, and they had an outbreak of infections, including the President.

All I am doing is refuting misinformation to help JTFers protect themselves.   I am not advocating economic plans or policies, shutdown measures.  I don't make the rules and I have no influence on those who do.   What I do know about is science, particularly immunology and biology, I understand to some degree how viruses work and have taken graduate courses specializing in these topics, and I share my knowledge.  So the accusation of hypocrisy has nothing to do with me.  I practice everything I preach here.  I try to protect myself and my friends and family to the best of my ability.  There is nothing wrong with that.

The evidence suggests that wearing a mask will help a person avoid getting infected, and in the case of getting infected quite possibly limit their exposure (which could create a scenario of lower viral load and thus an easier job for their immune system to fight the infection).  Masks are a useful tool against an airborne virus.  So that is what makes masks a good idea, especially when they cost next to nothing to implement.

You accuse me frequently of ad homenims. You put yourself in the shoes of the customer and say the worst thing you can think of him saying and then deal with that. You're going to have to divorce yourself from the conceptual to understand clearly here. Your statement was condescending and absent of supporting information you'd give to someone you're informing. Your attempt to assert authority in your language is what people are seeing over and over again as if you don't know people are designed to resist that here.

Find out what happens to the oxygen content in many cars with the windows up and their air con on, hot or cold. The people who have extra trouble breathing in there normally or when the air vents are unclean are an entirely separate category. Adding a mask is doing that drivers brain cell growth and maintenance no favors. You know why the medical happy faces decided "Weed kills brain cells"? They put gas masks on monkeys and pumped it full of weed smoke and the decreased oxygen for a few minutes killed brain cells. Those cells can regenerate when you have unrestricted oxygen again, but wearing it all day and only giving your body a chance to catch up at night is not enough for most people, especially the USA, where everyone needs all the brain cells they have. Over 33% of all calories consumed in the USA are from soda drinks and the average person is eating 3 types of foods for 90% of their consumption, you add a bit extra medical strain to a sick people and it goes down fast.

It is not difficult to administer general anesthetic to the posterior. It is however not going to go well when the person sticking a needle in your butt is not trained to stick it in there. Millions of dollars spent on signs for people to learn how to wash their hands. You didn't make it to adulthood if you didn't learn the concept of hand washing in a city, you're diseased and covered in rot. It's condescending to the next level. Everyone understands you don't want to have dirty hands. However, you just washed your hands 10 minutes ago at a party, now you're eating there, and you danced a bit since then but your hands look fine, why can't you just pull your mask off your face? What's wrong with putting it on your neck, it's just resting there right now? Why do I have to change it after I sneeze in it, there's no mucous, it's just really wet and anyways I'm done work in four hours I'm not going to waste it, I heard there was a crisis and we should save these. You're debating me like it earns you a trophy. You yourself can come up with 50 statements that seem completely logical for someone without medical training that would elicit a speech about bacteria and contaminants from either of us. The hand washing directives are comical next to their stupid anti-bacterial sludge that in every test over and over isn't cleaning what you can in 2 and a half seconds of washing with soap and water, yet "make sure you wash 20 seconds", millions of dollars to write that on signs, as if 18 and 20 with all areas washed began to make any difference. Did some moron in some building actually convince someone that this would help anyone? Maybe the pattern of talking down to the public is less coincidental than anyone is saying openly... and great cover, writing "wash your hands" in public bathrooms is equally effective. Oh and then someone with no medical training gets a directive, remove your mask with the two holders on the side without touching the front, on a little picture on a sign with no explanation whatsoever. He doesn't and then there's health problems and then big belly doctors can do the face scrunch and say "he was directed, could have read the sign". There are tons of options like face shields where they can have some protection and not need medical training, for the general public, and then comedy of comedy, school kids who pick their nose on their mask, masks are an attack on their health. It's less dumb then making them wear surgical gloves they keep in their pocket and take on and off, which tons of the latex glovers do. So make more signs with more medical directives. Oh and then you can take my "advice" and explain the germs on your hand so they understand what they're doing and not just saying "well the sign said looks like it's from a doctor so I'll remember it all day and obey perfectly", which people in the western world do not do. Now you can cover America in signs with directives and explanations needed to get them to understand to the point you and I do so they know how and why to keep safe, and then you get a California situation where everyone stops seeing warning signs and the message is still ignored. If the way to stop corona was to inject yourself with a needle, you don't give out the needle to the public and a pretty directive, you know for a fact many will screw it up, you calculate the amount of damage that will happen from human error regardless of directives and you make a nurse do it. When someone gets a cast, there are about as many things to know as for a mask, and a doctor or nurse will sit him down and give him those directives, with the knowledge he'll likely see him again because he'll screw it up.

There is no argument in how reality works. It either works this way or that. My position has not changed, masks and total lockdown was wonderful for two weeks, beyond its suicide that will lead to the greatest war in the history of the planet to equalize the debt created. "Masks work" is like saying "cars work", depends on what mask and the condition that it is in. My position is clear and has not changed, at risk people should be in n95s and gloves and their doctors should coach them on keeping safe, for everyone else it's nonsense. My sister on the front lines of treating covid vics has seen several catch it wearing surgicals at work, it's a false sense of security. The cloth mask is worthless. After we talk about the effect on covid, wearing the mask for long periods of time has other effects.

"You previously tried to claim that wearing a mask lowers the wearer's oxygen saturation, but that was false information."

Funny how you didn't finish there but now you're here. I said yes, your oxygen content is below 19.5% in the mask. You repeated a foaming retard meme nurses are sharing on their social media "well look the mask only has a teeny bit of space in it, you can't fit a whole lotta carbon in there, the rest is air." This is absurd, the co2 is being created constantly in that environment, it comes out of your face. You would cause major brain development problems to children if you told them they can sleep with the blanket over their heads because they'll breathe up all the carbon right away. My measurement equipment would instantly detect the oxygen content as normal when I inhale if that were the case, and of course it isn't. It's not fair to turn doctors into IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) specialists overnight either, this whole government response is putting people outside of their comfort zones.

"The face shield blocks some spittle coming to the wearer in a straight line in front of them, but allows the virus from a wearer to go around the shield to all the open space when they breathe, talk, yell, sing, sneeze, cough, etc.  If everyone wears a mask with some sealing around the face, it keeps everyone's germs in and decreases transmission.  If you look at indoor superspreading events as an example, the virus accumulates in the air from infected people breathing, speaking, coughing, singing, etc maskless.   A guy standing in there with a faceshield would have no protection from that even for himself.  Because the virus is airborne. With a mask around the face there is some filter layer for almost all the air you breathe in to go through first.   

Of course there could be innovations incorporating shields in a different way to eliminate all the empty space, sure.  Who said you can't innovate?

I am only arguing against the propaganda which tries to convince people that masks don't work.  That's dumb.
"

Ding Ding Ding Ding. But I thoughts it wus the spittle pops. Guess who also doesn't have protection from the virus in that super spreading event? The freeking everyone not in an N95. The surgical wearing can walk through, 4 hours there in a hockey game screaming "go" and he's still very likely to get it. Now for that surgical one, since the environment he is wearing it in IS NON STERILE, the vast majority of his oxygen is not coming in the front in a matter of minutes, especially if it's dusty, it's coming in same as a face shield. So you have two products that do the same thing, but since medical masks work well in sterile environments for four hours before you have to discard them, their establishment has decided to demand everyone use this product that requires training and not the other one that doesn't, and doesn't carry with it any health side effects from misuse outside of absurdly extreme circumstances.

Necessity is the mother of invention, and government is its abortion doctor. You get rid of the necessity by pretending the health problems from proper and improper mask use don't exist and claiming that they are saving lives by wearing a cloth mask at a BLM rally. Then you put the government with directives to use one particular kind of product. There's no consumer interest in a better way, of course by design, now you're with "the" science and the peasants below are savages or you're against the politicians playing horsie on doctor backs. Alexandria Cortez is far from the only one, politicans are actively resisting and putting down innovations against corona, I've now had to personally deal with it, and I should have known by the fact they insist on spending more money on faulty Chinese tests instead of less on the best ones from Korea.

"It is better than not wearing them because fewer people get infected and fewer die.  And as an intervention it causes zero harm and really isn't a big deal to do it.  Only drama queens have a big problem with putting one on, and they scream all day about it on the internet (but in real life most of those same people comply with the regulations and are wearing a mask in the grocery store like everyone else is)."

This is the same speculative argument they had for all kinds of strange Chinese medicine before modern medical science came in with a bit more depth to "cause and effect". It does cause harm when used properly, decreased oxygen to the brain that should only be done for short periods of time. It does cause harm when used improperly, and I doubt that even someone medically trained can give off all the safe mask procedures in common situations people face off hand. It is such a major deal that people refuse to go to their favorite businesses they've loved their whole lives with a mask on and they are going bankrupt one at a time. It's not fun to wear a mask, and whatever you're doing in a mask is less fun than not in a mask. You wiped out half of the economy by the time you discounted fun. There's one thing, you can think of 99 more examples why it's a major deal. "No I don't feel like going back to x and getting my mask, we'll go to this store next time"; you force people to do something they're not used to, you make their lives more complicated, businesses that are supposed to remove complications are less interesting. Go think of more, 98 easy ones to go. By "comply with the regulation" you mean not be thrown in prison in a cell that was occupied by a violent criminal who was freed to stop corona. I had to go to one grocery store since march. I can disagree with the absurd directive and still be forced on threat of my life being destroyed and my families lives being destroyed to wear a face bag. I knew an Israeli girl that walks around with one that says "This mask is crap and I don't agree with your holy cost" or something like that. They will destroy your family to save you from ,02 chance of death, they really, really, REALLY care (about free labor). It does not make you a hypocrite to do something you find abhorrent at gun point. You're just going to get introduced to a class of people that were raised in corona era to say doctors are elitist liars for the government, and neither of us is enjoying this new class to torment workers into compliance they are creating. In general though I just make big parties at my house so that at least one person coming who doesn't care about face bags can go shop for me. Hopefully one of my parties yields some shisha tobacco soon, hard to find up here. Also there are plenty of stores where the people now are saying all the doctors are x y z conspiracy, which is terrifying for me but it's nice to not have to wear a mask when I buy my stuff, and the cops don't want bullets in their heads so they stay outside.

"Am I a "medical group" now?   
Why do you keep insisting that what medical groups decided upon is so wrong, yet you have no arguments for how it is wrong or what a better alternative would be.   "

If I refer to you at all in a conceptual argument like this one it is as a concept. I do not know what you look like, what your life is like, your personality or almost anything about you except the rare tidbit here and there when you talked about yourself which I actually remembered, which are none but I do remember you saying things about yourself before. As such I have no authority to say anything about you.

I do. Unfortunately the technology is still confidential, and ran into road blocks like the wop mafia that runs that government here doesn't want it gone for 0 cost, or it would be out. I can say imagine the concept of a firestorm without the heat, and its gone from a city in two weeks. I basically cut off all USA contact after Ted Cruz lost, but starting to look like I need to go back.

"More verbal diarrhea and insults.  This isn't an argument."

You clearly didn't catch the point. What you say will always be more readily accepted than what I do, you say do x, I say under what circumstances, your way requires less thought. Now I can put my mask around my neck and smile that I'm keeping safe.

The white house had strict security measures, and an asymptomic staffer got it through. Has happened to plenty of people that "kept safe". Again, when I say you it's a general you, or in this case the medical establishment that puts out the lines you have as public directives.

The only piece of paper I have that certifies a specialty for me is "political science", but I get published as an expert on a number of topics, and the experience I've shared most here is in indoor air quality, and I have a couple articles in industry publications. I want to make sure JTFers understand that your directives are incomplete, and it's much better they take the .02% chance of hospitalization than breathe their hand germs mixed with their saliva on their masks all day.

[AsheDina]

The masks are probably giving kids in EU strep throat.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/global-health-authorities-fear-supercharged-scarlet-fever-virus-is-reemerging-after-70-years/news-story/0be980cbb0f2e45c62f2d44f64e30628

[Joe Gutfeld]

... not exactly. The old people that are at risk should be in n95s that they discard every four hours of use and gloves at all times when they are outside. Since they can be made aware that this is a major life risk for them, they will virtually all make the effort to learn proper mask use and safety. Enforcing surgical masks or the absurdly counter-productive cloth masks on the general public is harmful and deeply ignorant.

I'm not an elderly person and I have a problem breathing in those masks.  That's why I don't wear one.