Author Topic: Tzitzit and Tallit  (Read 7303 times)

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Tzitzit and Tallit
« on: October 07, 2007, 02:35:16 AM »
Tzitzit and Tallit

Tallis with TzitzitThe Torah also commands us to wear tzitzit (fringes) at the corners of our garments as a reminder of the mitzvot. Num. 15:37-41. There is a complex procedure for tying the knots of the tzitzit, filled with religious and numerological significance.

The mitzvah to wear tzitzit only applies to four-cornered garments, which were common in biblical times but are not common anymore. To fulfill this mitzvah, adult men wear a four-cornered shawl called a tallit (pictured above) during morning services, along with the tefillin. In some Orthodox congregations, only married men wear a tallit; in others, both married and unmarried men wear one. In Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist synagogues, both men and women may wear a tallit, but men are somewhat more likely than women to do so. A blessing is recited when you put on the tallit. See the text of the blessing at Tallit and Tefillin.

Strictly observant Jewish men commonly wear a special four-cornered garment, similar to a poncho, called a tallit katan ("little tallit"), so that they will have the opportunity to fulfill this important mitzvah all day long. The tallit katan is worn under the shirt, with the tzitzit hanging out so they can be seen.

There is no particular religious significance to the tallit (shawl) itself, other than the fact that it holds the tzitzit (fringes) on its corners. There are also very few religious requirements with regard to the design of the tallit. The tallit must be long enough to be worn over the shoulders (as a shawl), not just around the neck (as a scarf), to fulfill the requirement that the tzitzit be on a "garment." It may be made of any material, but must not be made of a combination of wool and linen, because that combination is forbidden on any clothing. (Lev. 19:19; Deut. 22:11). Most tallitot are white with navy or black stripes along the shorter ends, as in the illustration above. They also commonly have an artistic motif of some kind along the top long end (the part that goes against your neck). This motif is referred to as an atarah (crown). There is no particular religious significance to the atarah; it simply tells you which end is up! It is quite common, however, to write the words of the blessing for putting on the tallit on the atarah, so you can read the blessing while you are putting the tallit on.

If a blessing is written on your tallit, you should be careful not to bring the tallit into the bathroom with you! Sacred writings should not be brought into the bathroom. For this reason, many synagogues have a tallit rack outside of the bathroom. Conversely, if you see a room in a synagogue with a sign that tells you to remove your tallit before entering, you can safely assume that the room is a bathroom!


Offline Dominater96

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2007, 10:07:22 PM »
I wear wool, round neck, sephardic tzitzit. I have a pair with techelet. My Tallit also has techelet (of the Murex of course). IM looking to buy a tallit and tzitzit with Rambam style strings.

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2008, 10:00:31 PM »
One of my friends told me the tallit is supposed to cover the entire back, does anyone know if this is accurate and where it comes from? either way I just bought a wrap so it does now
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Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2008, 05:34:28 PM »
I wear wool, round neck, Sefardic tzitzit. I have a pair with techelet. My Tallit also has techelet (of the Murex of course). IM looking to buy a tallit and tzitzit with Rambam style strings.

I would suggest the Raavad strings instead.

No offense to the Rambam but the Raavad's opinion is more solidly founded.
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Offline Dominater96

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2008, 08:59:50 PM »
I wear wool, round neck, Sefardic tzitzit. I have a pair with techelet. My Tallit also has techelet (of the Murex of course). IM looking to buy a tallit and tzitzit with Rambam style strings.

I would suggest the Raavad strings instead.

No offense to the Rambam but the Raavad's opinion is more solidly founded.
Why? and the techelet should be Murex, radzin, or Rav Herzog's?

Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2008, 09:14:54 PM »
I wear wool, round neck, Sefardic tzitzit. I have a pair with techelet. My Tallit also has techelet (of the Murex of course). IM looking to buy a tallit and tzitzit with Rambam style strings.

I would suggest the Raavad strings instead.

No offense to the Rambam but the Raavad's opinion is more solidly founded.
Why? and the techelet should be Murex, radzin, or Rav Herzog's?

The reason that I say that the Raavad's opinion is more solidly founded is for a few reasons.

1) The Raavad's tying created a true indivisible Gidheel. The Rambam's creates seven seperate rings of wrapping which while it looks quite pretty, it is not much of a Gidheel.

2) The Raavad's tying can be one third of any length strings, The Rambam's is very limited.

3) The Rambam's tying assumes that all the wrappings except for the first and last should be Tekheleth. This is hard to reconcile with the halakha that states that a normal beged should start with Lavan and end with Lavan and a garment made of Tekheleth should start with tekheleth and end with tekheleth. This eventuality makes very little sense and you would have no idea what to do with the rambam's shita in this instance. Do you flip the colors and have all of the wrappings Lavan except for the first and last?

That makes no sense or do you just make all wrappings Tekheleth which makes no sense in context because the Talmudh is clearly talking about using both colors just starting with aone and ending with the same one.

4) the Rambam's opinion that you dye half a string Tekheleth looks nice but Ptheel Tekheleth seems to  imply a whole string not half.

There are more reasons but I would have to learn the Talmudh with you in person to tell you all of them.

All which I have said is based on the opinion of Rav Bar Hayim, but I have a different opinion that I think the opinion of Rav Amram Gaon is the most Mekori. I have started to see Rav Bar hayim's side more favorably recently although my Taanoth in favor of Rav amram gaon's style has not yet been answered. I sent him an email detailing my ideas on the subject.

Here they are for your enjoyment:

I do have some questions about your choice of the Raavad's shita as what the Talmudh is saying. The problem is when Rava says, refering to the statement of "Sisith, Gardumaw Ksherim" "We see from here that one must tie after each Huliah." The idea is that although it is theoretically possible not to tie after each huliah, one should.
 
The problem with the Raavad's shita is that the reason for tying on each huliah for the Raavad is the need for differentiating between each huliah. If  you didn't tie between each huliah, you would go over the 13 krikhoth limit because it  would all be one huliah.
 
The stated reason, I believe, for tying after each huliah is so that if one unravels, the rest of the G'dhil will remain. The Raavad needs it to tie anyway to differentiate between the hulioth. Which is something that Rav Amram Gaon's shita doesn't need to do because of the different colors of the three krikhoth hulioth.
 
It seems to me that Rav Amram's shita fits in more nicely to the Talmudh because of the idea of tying the white first because " Al Kanaf, Min Kanaf". The idea that we should start with white to start because it is on the kanaf and should be the same color as the Kanaf.
 
 If the idea of starting with white refers to each huliah like the Raavad and not the whole g'dhil as Rav Amram holds, what possible reason could one give for starting the second  or third or fourth huliah with white? It is not on the Kanaf.
 
As far as the idea that any shita must adaptable to any length of Sisith strings and be able to maintain shlish g'dhil and shnei shlish anaf. I just don't see why that has to be the case. When it says, "Noie Tekheleth shlish g'dhil and shnei shlish anaf". Maybe that just means that this is the way it should be, but if you make the strings so long that it is not possible, that is your loss. Doesn't it seem to be inferring an ideal Sisith arrangement? I just don't see why non-adaptability  to any length strings is a sign of incongruence with the Talmudh.


As for the Tekheleth Question.

Murex is obviously the True Tekheleth.

Radzin tekheleth Sepia washes out in the laundry. It is quite a stretch to assume that a dye that washes out in a few washes was once worth it's weight in Gold. so Radzin is obviously not Tekheleth.

Rav Herzog's Janthina is also not possible. Because no one has ever been able to produce one string of Tekheleth dyed with Janthina.

Also neither Sepia not Janthina shells were ever found buried by the millions or even at all in the Ancient Dye factories of Lebanon and Haifa.

Murex was.

Buying any Tekheleth that is not Murex is a waste of time and money.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 11:20:11 PM by judeanoncapta »
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Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2008, 10:14:50 PM »
Where do I get Murex and how much does it cost?
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Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2008, 11:19:14 PM »
Where do I get Murex and how much does it cost?


It costs 70-80 dollars and you can order it from the tekhelet.com. Although if you want it immediately you can get ripped off to the tune of 100 dollars at eichler's or you can get it from keter judaica in boro park for 70 bucks.
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Offline Khazan

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2008, 02:31:58 AM »
are the the tzitzit worn today the same exact as the ones worn in the times of the torah and Kings?  I'm wondering where the chassidic style evolved from, I don't think the Israelites were wandering the desert in wool trenchcoats and wool hats. 

Offline Zevida

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2008, 04:56:56 PM »
are the the tzitzit worn today the same exact as the ones worn in the times of the torah and Kings?  I'm wondering where the chassidic style evolved from, I don't think the Israelites were wandering the desert in wool trenchcoats and wool hats. 

In Biblical times, the tzitzit were attached to the everyday garment.  There's a store that tries to recreate them here: http://www.begedivri.com/catalogue/Tallith.htm so you can see a picture (look at the one called Biblical Tallith).  They were basically the style of the time with the tzitzit on them.  :)

I am told that the tallit katan (worn under the clothing) came about when Jews were forbidden from wearing the tzitzit.  That way, they could hide them under their clothing, fulfilling the mitzvah, and not be killed for wearing them.  :)  As for the tallit or prayer shawl, I believe those came about because of the changing styles of clothing.  Most of us no longer wear those Biblical style clothing, so the tallit is used to fulfill the mitzvah during prayer.

As for the rules of Chassidic style dress, I really can't say.  I would have to do some research on that.  :)

« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 05:00:41 PM by Zevida »
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2008, 12:20:08 AM »
are the the tzitzit worn today the same exact as the ones worn in the times of the torah and Kings?  I'm wondering where the chassidic style evolved from, I don't think the Israelites were wandering the desert in wool trenchcoats and wool hats. 

What do wool hats and trenchcoats have to do with tzitzit?  Those are entirely different things.  All religious Jews where Tzitzit, either with fringes tucked into pants (more common practice in USA) or left out for all to see in the style that Jews originally wore them (more common in Israel).  Tzitzit have nothing to do with being chassidic or not chassidic. 

And the chassidic style dress (a separate subject that has nothing to do with Torah observance) came from where chassidism originated in Europe, what climates were there, and what style of clothing these Jews mostly wore.  It has become a tradition of sorts for present-day chassidic Jews to replicate the clothing styles of their 19th century/20th century chassidic ancestors.  Not my style, but I don't knock them for it.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 12:22:52 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2008, 10:58:57 PM »
are the the tzitzit worn today the same exact as the ones worn in the times of the torah and Kings?  I'm wondering where the chassidic style evolved from, I don't think the Israelites were wandering the desert in wool trenchcoats and wool hats. 
Tzitzit in those days had the Tchelet color. Today we aren't sure what that color came from, but some people add it today, they think it was some sort of crustacean, I forget which
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2008, 02:38:39 AM »
It's not in violation of a mitzah not to wear tzitzit unless you are wearing a four cornered garment without the fringes. But since people don't wear those garments today as their style of dress, they wear an extra garment with four corners just so they will be able to fulfill the positive mitzvah but they are not breaking it by not wearing it.



Yes true, I was just thinking that nowadays it is customary that Torah observant Jews always wear that 4 cornered garment in order to have tzitzit on as a daily mitzvah.

Offline Khazan

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2008, 11:09:22 AM »
are the the tzitzit worn today the same exact as the ones worn in the times of the torah and Kings?  I'm wondering where the chassidic style evolved from, I don't think the Israelites were wandering the desert in wool trenchcoats and wool hats. 
Tzitzit in those days had the Tchelet color. Today we aren't sure what that color came from, but some people add it today, they think it was some sort of crustacean, I forget which

Aren't crustaceans unkosher? 

I'm aware that the tzitzit and chassdic winter style are exclusive of on another.  I don't understand why chassadim in Israel still wear those close in the heat of Israeli summer.  I understand that if you're in Poland or Russia in the winter such a style makes sense, but why still do it when back in the motherland? 

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: Tzitzit and Tallit
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2008, 10:45:37 PM »
are the the tzitzit worn today the same exact as the ones worn in the times of the torah and Kings?  I'm wondering where the chassidic style evolved from, I don't think the Israelites were wandering the desert in wool trenchcoats and wool hats. 
Tzitzit in those days had the Tchelet color. Today we aren't sure what that color came from, but some people add it today, they think it was some sort of crustacean, I forget which

Aren't crustaceans unkosher? 

I'm aware that the tzitzit and chassdic winter style are exclusive of on another.  I don't understand why chassadim in Israel still wear those close in the heat of Israeli summer.  I understand that if you're in Poland or Russia in the winter such a style makes sense, but why still do it when back in the motherland? 
well they aren't eating it, I think the Tchelet came from a snail or something, maybe I'm wrong
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