Do You Think Pants Are Modest For Women?

[Just Erica]

I wear pants. 

It all depends.  Sometimes skirts can be modest or immodest.  The same holds true for jeans.

I love pants. However , being a female who was once kicked out of a church for wearing pants  , I'm more for women wearing them than ever. lol I wear long skirts and maybe shorter (knee-length) flowing skirts. I feel feminine in everything I wear though. (It's important though, being a Chicagoan and all...that I wear pants during the harsh winters. Looking pretty, or feminine isn't worth me freezing my touchas off. )

Can't you wear pants under your skirt?

No. lol I would wear a long winter coat or just wear pants to work.

But a skirt is more modest.

What, is that a male answer? LOL Come on now. I think some men are just threatened by women who wear pants. I don't know WHY but that's just strange. Anyway, I'd be more concerned with how long the skirt is (for my own taste) than whether wearing pants or not will make me look less pure.

I love skirts but I love having the freedom to choose whether I wear a skirt or something else.

It's not a "Male answer," it's G-d's answer.  We follow His Word...

The Bible also said that women shouldn't cut their hair.

Show me where it says that.  And I don't mean in the Goyishe "Bible," in Tanach...

How is a skirt more modest than pants?

Exactly, Doc. From what I read here, showing skin is immoral. This comment isn't against you, Dr. Dan but I think some men feel theatened when women wear pants... Remember, back in the days before women's rights and suffrage, men were the only people wearing pants. Women picked up the idea that they could wear pants also... for more practical reasons (because a lot of women worked in the fields and pants protected their legs). Now it's wrong? I think that's a sexist attitude.

Also, I want to point out that there is no section in the Bible that says "Woman! Thou shalt not wear pants!" From all of the religious pictures I've seen, I didn't even see MEN in pants. They wore robes. How many of you would actually walk out of your apartments/ houses right now, sporting the fashions of Israel, B.C.E. ? (Not that they were bad...) My point is that times change and people's tastes change with said times. Stop thinking that if a woman wears pants that she must be raging against the machine or something. Sometimes wearing pants is just what it is...wearing  pants.

Pants are immodest because they show form, and because they're men's clothing, it has nothing to do with skin.  And there is something in Tanach that says men can't wear women's clothing and vice versa.

For Jews or anyone who wishes to be modest, it is best to not wear any clothing that might make a man have a sexual desire to undress her, marry her, have sex with her, divorce her, all in a split second's thought.

Pants do not necessarily show the female figure more than a skirt. Sometimes it is the opposite..The reality is the bottom line...If i can look at the woman and not for a moment even imagine her naked, then she is dressed properly.

Men, understand something. Women have been kidnapped and raped wearing long night gowns, or baggy clothes under large winter coats. That proves that some men don't care WHAT a woman is wearing. They're going to think what they wish about her appearance. When little girls *shudder* or older women are kidnapped and raped or looked at sexually, it has nothing to do with their clothes. But it has everything to do with the fact that there are sick individuals just walking around as free as jay birds with sick thoughts in their heads.

Certainly in this instance you're right....but that's not the point we are making here.

We're talking about women walking around in public with their cleavage in the air.  Forget about the insane people..It's the non-insane people...who may not act upon insanity, but lead them to do other things that are "unholy".

If they're following the Torah, I understand what you're saying but remember, the most powerful body part on a male OR female is their brain. Even if a woman is covered from head to toe, that doesn't stop even the most descent man from wondering what she looks like under their clothes. There are women who look at attractive men, then wonder what their children would look like if they got married. Fantasy isn't a bad thing..in fact, it's healthy. However, sick people can take fantasy to another level quicker than anyone else.

In my opinion, fantasies about other women while a man is married to his own wife isn't such a good thing..although I'm sure it happens to the best of every single one of us..female and male.

I never mentioned it being okay if a married male has fantasies about other women. A decent man doesn't always mean a married man.

So then you proved my point...A married man will still look..but if there are no opportunities to look he'll be better off and a better husband.

So if men were blind and stripped of the right to admire the beauty of a woman,  they'd be better suited husbands? lol Women can look attractive in any way. Some men think women who don't wear makeup are attractive, while some men think that women who wear skirts are attractive. Is it wrong for a man to even think that a woman is attractive when he first meets her, or even sees her on the street?

[Dr. Dan]

I wear pants. 

It all depends.  Sometimes skirts can be modest or immodest.  The same holds true for jeans.

I love pants. However , being a female who was once kicked out of a church for wearing pants  , I'm more for women wearing them than ever. lol I wear long skirts and maybe shorter (knee-length) flowing skirts. I feel feminine in everything I wear though. (It's important though, being a Chicagoan and all...that I wear pants during the harsh winters. Looking pretty, or feminine isn't worth me freezing my touchas off. )

Can't you wear pants under your skirt?

No. lol I would wear a long winter coat or just wear pants to work.

But a skirt is more modest.

What, is that a male answer? LOL Come on now. I think some men are just threatened by women who wear pants. I don't know WHY but that's just strange. Anyway, I'd be more concerned with how long the skirt is (for my own taste) than whether wearing pants or not will make me look less pure.

I love skirts but I love having the freedom to choose whether I wear a skirt or something else.

It's not a "Male answer," it's G-d's answer.  We follow His Word...

The Bible also said that women shouldn't cut their hair.

Show me where it says that.  And I don't mean in the Goyishe "Bible," in Tanach...

How is a skirt more modest than pants?

Exactly, Doc. From what I read here, showing skin is immoral. This comment isn't against you, Dr. Dan but I think some men feel theatened when women wear pants... Remember, back in the days before women's rights and suffrage, men were the only people wearing pants. Women picked up the idea that they could wear pants also... for more practical reasons (because a lot of women worked in the fields and pants protected their legs). Now it's wrong? I think that's a sexist attitude.

Also, I want to point out that there is no section in the Bible that says "Woman! Thou shalt not wear pants!" From all of the religious pictures I've seen, I didn't even see MEN in pants. They wore robes. How many of you would actually walk out of your apartments/ houses right now, sporting the fashions of Israel, B.C.E. ? (Not that they were bad...) My point is that times change and people's tastes change with said times. Stop thinking that if a woman wears pants that she must be raging against the machine or something. Sometimes wearing pants is just what it is...wearing  pants.

Pants are immodest because they show form, and because they're men's clothing, it has nothing to do with skin.  And there is something in Tanach that says men can't wear women's clothing and vice versa.

For Jews or anyone who wishes to be modest, it is best to not wear any clothing that might make a man have a sexual desire to undress her, marry her, have sex with her, divorce her, all in a split second's thought.

Pants do not necessarily show the female figure more than a skirt. Sometimes it is the opposite..The reality is the bottom line...If i can look at the woman and not for a moment even imagine her naked, then she is dressed properly.

Men, understand something. Women have been kidnapped and raped wearing long night gowns, or baggy clothes under large winter coats. That proves that some men don't care WHAT a woman is wearing. They're going to think what they wish about her appearance. When little girls *shudder* or older women are kidnapped and raped or looked at sexually, it has nothing to do with their clothes. But it has everything to do with the fact that there are sick individuals just walking around as free as jay birds with sick thoughts in their heads.

Certainly in this instance you're right....but that's not the point we are making here.

We're talking about women walking around in public with their cleavage in the air.  Forget about the insane people..It's the non-insane people...who may not act upon insanity, but lead them to do other things that are "unholy".

If they're following the Torah, I understand what you're saying but remember, the most powerful body part on a male OR female is their brain. Even if a woman is covered from head to toe, that doesn't stop even the most descent man from wondering what she looks like under their clothes. There are women who look at attractive men, then wonder what their children would look like if they got married. Fantasy isn't a bad thing..in fact, it's healthy. However, sick people can take fantasy to another level quicker than anyone else.

In my opinion, fantasies about other women while a man is married to his own wife isn't such a good thing..although I'm sure it happens to the best of every single one of us..female and male.

I never mentioned it being okay if a married male has fantasies about other women. A decent man doesn't always mean a married man.

So then you proved my point...A married man will still look..but if there are no opportunities to look he'll be better off and a better husband.

So if men were blind and stripped of the right to admire the beauty of a woman,  they'd be better suited husbands? lol Women can look attractive in any way. Some men think women who don't wear makeup are attractive, while some men think that women who wear skirts are attractive. Is it wrong for a man to even think that a woman is attractive when he first meets her, or even sees her on the street?

That's not what I said.  One can admire beauty...it's taking the beauty and making something sexual to it.

Some women are wholesome pretty with makeup wearing nice clothes..even pants...

Other women, distract attention from their face and brain to their cleavage or butt. 

[Just Erica]

I wear pants. 

It all depends.  Sometimes skirts can be modest or immodest.  The same holds true for jeans.

I love pants. However , being a female who was once kicked out of a church for wearing pants  , I'm more for women wearing them than ever. lol I wear long skirts and maybe shorter (knee-length) flowing skirts. I feel feminine in everything I wear though. (It's important though, being a Chicagoan and all...that I wear pants during the harsh winters. Looking pretty, or feminine isn't worth me freezing my touchas off. )

Can't you wear pants under your skirt?

No. lol I would wear a long winter coat or just wear pants to work.

But a skirt is more modest.

What, is that a male answer? LOL Come on now. I think some men are just threatened by women who wear pants. I don't know WHY but that's just strange. Anyway, I'd be more concerned with how long the skirt is (for my own taste) than whether wearing pants or not will make me look less pure.

I love skirts but I love having the freedom to choose whether I wear a skirt or something else.

It's not a "Male answer," it's G-d's answer.  We follow His Word...

The Bible also said that women shouldn't cut their hair.

Show me where it says that.  And I don't mean in the Goyishe "Bible," in Tanach...

How is a skirt more modest than pants?

Exactly, Doc. From what I read here, showing skin is immoral. This comment isn't against you, Dr. Dan but I think some men feel theatened when women wear pants... Remember, back in the days before women's rights and suffrage, men were the only people wearing pants. Women picked up the idea that they could wear pants also... for more practical reasons (because a lot of women worked in the fields and pants protected their legs). Now it's wrong? I think that's a sexist attitude.

Also, I want to point out that there is no section in the Bible that says "Woman! Thou shalt not wear pants!" From all of the religious pictures I've seen, I didn't even see MEN in pants. They wore robes. How many of you would actually walk out of your apartments/ houses right now, sporting the fashions of Israel, B.C.E. ? (Not that they were bad...) My point is that times change and people's tastes change with said times. Stop thinking that if a woman wears pants that she must be raging against the machine or something. Sometimes wearing pants is just what it is...wearing  pants.

Pants are immodest because they show form, and because they're men's clothing, it has nothing to do with skin.  And there is something in Tanach that says men can't wear women's clothing and vice versa.

For Jews or anyone who wishes to be modest, it is best to not wear any clothing that might make a man have a sexual desire to undress her, marry her, have sex with her, divorce her, all in a split second's thought.

Pants do not necessarily show the female figure more than a skirt. Sometimes it is the opposite..The reality is the bottom line...If i can look at the woman and not for a moment even imagine her naked, then she is dressed properly.

Men, understand something. Women have been kidnapped and raped wearing long night gowns, or baggy clothes under large winter coats. That proves that some men don't care WHAT a woman is wearing. They're going to think what they wish about her appearance. When little girls *shudder* or older women are kidnapped and raped or looked at sexually, it has nothing to do with their clothes. But it has everything to do with the fact that there are sick individuals just walking around as free as jay birds with sick thoughts in their heads.

Certainly in this instance you're right....but that's not the point we are making here.

We're talking about women walking around in public with their cleavage in the air.  Forget about the insane people..It's the non-insane people...who may not act upon insanity, but lead them to do other things that are "unholy".

If they're following the Torah, I understand what you're saying but remember, the most powerful body part on a male OR female is their brain. Even if a woman is covered from head to toe, that doesn't stop even the most descent man from wondering what she looks like under their clothes. There are women who look at attractive men, then wonder what their children would look like if they got married. Fantasy isn't a bad thing..in fact, it's healthy. However, sick people can take fantasy to another level quicker than anyone else.

In my opinion, fantasies about other women while a man is married to his own wife isn't such a good thing..although I'm sure it happens to the best of every single one of us..female and male.

I never mentioned it being okay if a married male has fantasies about other women. A decent man doesn't always mean a married man.

So then you proved my point...A married man will still look..but if there are no opportunities to look he'll be better off and a better husband.

So if men were blind and stripped of the right to admire the beauty of a woman,  they'd be better suited husbands? lol Women can look attractive in any way. Some men think women who don't wear makeup are attractive, while some men think that women who wear skirts are attractive. Is it wrong for a man to even think that a woman is attractive when he first meets her, or even sees her on the street?

That's not what I said.  One can admire beauty...it's taking the beauty and making something sexual to it.

Some women are wholesome pretty with makeup wearing nice clothes..even pants...

Other women, distract attention from their face and brain to their cleavage or butt. 

When did the discussion take a turn into inappropriate blouses and tight pants? I thought that some of you (not necessarily you, Dan) were against women wearing ANY kind of pants; even baggy pants.

[Lisa]

Here's my perspective on the whole pants/skirts issue as a Jewish woman. 

I think a skirt can be immodest just as very low rise or tight pants can be immodest.  It all depends on the style. 

But there's one more thing.  Regardless of their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) many women will find ways of showing off their bodies.  I have seen this first hand   There was a woman in my parents synagogue wearing a long modest skirt.  But her top was skin tight, and *really* emphasized her cleavage.  And somehow I did not think it was a matter of not being able to afford a properly fitting top. 

Anyway, at another singles event, there was the wife of this rabbi wearing a long, modest skirt, but again, her top was skin tight, which emphasized *everything.*  And I doubt these are the only two women wearing tight tops. 

A cousin of mine married a nice religious Jewish girl.  She and I were talking, and she said flat out this it's natural for young women who want to show off their bodies.  She also said that many religious girls get around the long skirt rule by wearing very tight clothes. 

[mord]

I think it's a good idea for women to wear pants it's better then if they go out in public without pants on

[Dr. Dan]

I wear pants. 

It all depends.  Sometimes skirts can be modest or immodest.  The same holds true for jeans.

I love pants. However , being a female who was once kicked out of a church for wearing pants  , I'm more for women wearing them than ever. lol I wear long skirts and maybe shorter (knee-length) flowing skirts. I feel feminine in everything I wear though. (It's important though, being a Chicagoan and all...that I wear pants during the harsh winters. Looking pretty, or feminine isn't worth me freezing my touchas off. )

Can't you wear pants under your skirt?

No. lol I would wear a long winter coat or just wear pants to work.

But a skirt is more modest.

What, is that a male answer? LOL Come on now. I think some men are just threatened by women who wear pants. I don't know WHY but that's just strange. Anyway, I'd be more concerned with how long the skirt is (for my own taste) than whether wearing pants or not will make me look less pure.

I love skirts but I love having the freedom to choose whether I wear a skirt or something else.

It's not a "Male answer," it's G-d's answer.  We follow His Word...

The Bible also said that women shouldn't cut their hair.

Show me where it says that.  And I don't mean in the Goyishe "Bible," in Tanach...

How is a skirt more modest than pants?

Exactly, Doc. From what I read here, showing skin is immoral. This comment isn't against you, Dr. Dan but I think some men feel theatened when women wear pants... Remember, back in the days before women's rights and suffrage, men were the only people wearing pants. Women picked up the idea that they could wear pants also... for more practical reasons (because a lot of women worked in the fields and pants protected their legs). Now it's wrong? I think that's a sexist attitude.

Also, I want to point out that there is no section in the Bible that says "Woman! Thou shalt not wear pants!" From all of the religious pictures I've seen, I didn't even see MEN in pants. They wore robes. How many of you would actually walk out of your apartments/ houses right now, sporting the fashions of Israel, B.C.E. ? (Not that they were bad...) My point is that times change and people's tastes change with said times. Stop thinking that if a woman wears pants that she must be raging against the machine or something. Sometimes wearing pants is just what it is...wearing  pants.

Pants are immodest because they show form, and because they're men's clothing, it has nothing to do with skin.  And there is something in Tanach that says men can't wear women's clothing and vice versa.

For Jews or anyone who wishes to be modest, it is best to not wear any clothing that might make a man have a sexual desire to undress her, marry her, have sex with her, divorce her, all in a split second's thought.

Pants do not necessarily show the female figure more than a skirt. Sometimes it is the opposite..The reality is the bottom line...If i can look at the woman and not for a moment even imagine her naked, then she is dressed properly.

Men, understand something. Women have been kidnapped and raped wearing long night gowns, or baggy clothes under large winter coats. That proves that some men don't care WHAT a woman is wearing. They're going to think what they wish about her appearance. When little girls *shudder* or older women are kidnapped and raped or looked at sexually, it has nothing to do with their clothes. But it has everything to do with the fact that there are sick individuals just walking around as free as jay birds with sick thoughts in their heads.

Certainly in this instance you're right....but that's not the point we are making here.

We're talking about women walking around in public with their cleavage in the air.  Forget about the insane people..It's the non-insane people...who may not act upon insanity, but lead them to do other things that are "unholy".

If they're following the Torah, I understand what you're saying but remember, the most powerful body part on a male OR female is their brain. Even if a woman is covered from head to toe, that doesn't stop even the most descent man from wondering what she looks like under their clothes. There are women who look at attractive men, then wonder what their children would look like if they got married. Fantasy isn't a bad thing..in fact, it's healthy. However, sick people can take fantasy to another level quicker than anyone else.

In my opinion, fantasies about other women while a man is married to his own wife isn't such a good thing..although I'm sure it happens to the best of every single one of us..female and male.

I never mentioned it being okay if a married male has fantasies about other women. A decent man doesn't always mean a married man.

So then you proved my point...A married man will still look..but if there are no opportunities to look he'll be better off and a better husband.

So if men were blind and stripped of the right to admire the beauty of a woman,  they'd be better suited husbands? lol Women can look attractive in any way. Some men think women who don't wear makeup are attractive, while some men think that women who wear skirts are attractive. Is it wrong for a man to even think that a woman is attractive when he first meets her, or even sees her on the street?

That's not what I said.  One can admire beauty...it's taking the beauty and making something sexual to it.

Some women are wholesome pretty with makeup wearing nice clothes..even pants...

Other women, distract attention from their face and brain to their cleavage or butt. 

When did the discussion take a turn into inappropriate blouses and tight pants? I thought that some of you (not necessarily you, Dan) were against women wearing ANY kind of pants; even baggy pants.

Many Jewish religious and observant circles believe that women should wear skirts and men wear pants.  This doesn't necessarily mean that this should apply to non-Jews...so you're in the clear, Erica.

The reasoning by some rabbis about the skirts are two that I know of.  That pants are men's clothing and that cross-dressing is wrong.  Jewihs women wear women's clothing and men men's clothing.  The second one is that pants may extentuate the female form more than a skirt and therefore reduces her modesty.

NOt all rabbis feel this way, but I respect those who do feel this way.

The bottom line, i believe, to these rules is that:

1. Cross dressing can lead to confusion...Look at the trans sexuals today...the ones that do a good job of it look like women...and woa would be a man who gets attractd to that thinking it is a woman...not a good thing.

2. THe female form is very sexy and can potentially lead some men astray.

So these rabbinical rules are fences...

I'll give you an example...waiting for a subway there is a yellow line that no one should cross so that no accidents should befall them.  Some people wait right behind the yellow line. HOwever, I wait far away from the yellow line.  These Jewish fences are similar also.

[Dr. Dan]

Here's my perspective on the whole pants/skirts issue as a Jewish woman. 

I think a skirt can be immodest just as very low rise or tight pants can be immodest.  It all depends on the style. 

But there's one more thing.  Regardless of their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) many women will find ways of showing off their bodies.  I have seen this first hand   There was a woman in my parents synagogue wearing a long modest skirt.  But her top was skin tight, and *really* emphasized her cleavage.  And somehow I did not think it was a matter of not being able to afford a properly fitting top. 

Anyway, at another singles event, there was the wife of this rabbi wearing a long, modest skirt, but again, her top was skin tight, which emphasized *everything.*  And I doubt these are the only two women wearing tight tops. 

A cousin of mine married a nice religious Jewish girl.  She and I were talking, and she said flat out this it's natural for young women who want to show off their bodies.  She also said that many religious girls get around the long skirt rule by wearing very tight clothes. 

I'm sure there is a way to bend the rules....

HOwever, a wise female (who i'm currently dating) said to me that she doesn't dress in these ways because it will cause the man she is dating to stray away from her brain.  And certainly, on our first date and so on, she has not worn anything that would let my eyes go astray from her face and her mind.

THese other women, religious or not, who might not show cleavage, but wear something tight to show off the size of their boobs aren't doing justice to themselves if they want to find a man who will like her for her mind and not her body.

To add, there is nothing wrong with men liking sexy women, but i think it's better to first like a woman's mind before likeing her physical form.

[newman]

With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.

[OdKahaneChai]

OdKahaneChai: Can you please explain, for a friend of mine, why a woman
 is allowed to wear a blouse, but not pants?
OdKahaneChai: He contends that it's the same concept, and that the
 Rabbonim are contradicting themselves
Rabbi Velvel: The reason Halachah discourages women from wearing pants
 is because the pant garment more clearly emphasizes the women's body
 outline as opposed to a skirt.
Rabbi Velvel: How can the same be said about the blouse?
Rabbi Velvel: Pants might be considered more suggestive and less
 concealing then a skirt/dress

Not entirely true...Those skirts can look really pretty on a woman.....

Who said anything about looking pretty?

So this rabbi suggests that a woman wearing pants shows off the shape of her body better than a skirt.  And the body can cause a man to stray from knowing the woman's brain.
However, if the pants are baggy or designed in such a way that it doesn't extentuate the body, it woud lhave to be permitted.
Therefore, it is not that pants are a man's clothing that a woman shouldn't wear it, but that she wearing pants may in fact compromise the modesty.
This type of modesty is a fence around the torah.
All i have to say is be careful of other fences that might come from this one..the next step might be wearing a burka, Gd forbid.

One is not allowed to cover the face.

[OdKahaneChai]

I wear pants. 

It all depends.  Sometimes skirts can be modest or immodest.  The same holds true for jeans.

I love pants. However , being a female who was once kicked out of a church for wearing pants  , I'm more for women wearing them than ever. lol I wear long skirts and maybe shorter (knee-length) flowing skirts. I feel feminine in everything I wear though. (It's important though, being a Chicagoan and all...that I wear pants during the harsh winters. Looking pretty, or feminine isn't worth me freezing my touchas off. )

Can't you wear pants under your skirt?

No. lol I would wear a long winter coat or just wear pants to work.

But a skirt is more modest.

What, is that a male answer? LOL Come on now. I think some men are just threatened by women who wear pants. I don't know WHY but that's just strange. Anyway, I'd be more concerned with how long the skirt is (for my own taste) than whether wearing pants or not will make me look less pure.

I love skirts but I love having the freedom to choose whether I wear a skirt or something else.

It's not a "Male answer," it's G-d's answer.  We follow His Word...

The Bible also said that women shouldn't cut their hair.

Show me where it says that.  And I don't mean in the Goyishe "Bible," in Tanach...

How is a skirt more modest than pants?

Exactly, Doc. From what I read here, showing skin is immoral. This comment isn't against you, Dr. Dan but I think some men feel theatened when women wear pants... Remember, back in the days before women's rights and suffrage, men were the only people wearing pants. Women picked up the idea that they could wear pants also... for more practical reasons (because a lot of women worked in the fields and pants protected their legs). Now it's wrong? I think that's a sexist attitude.

Also, I want to point out that there is no section in the Bible that says "Woman! Thou shalt not wear pants!" From all of the religious pictures I've seen, I didn't even see MEN in pants. They wore robes. How many of you would actually walk out of your apartments/ houses right now, sporting the fashions of Israel, B.C.E. ? (Not that they were bad...) My point is that times change and people's tastes change with said times. Stop thinking that if a woman wears pants that she must be raging against the machine or something. Sometimes wearing pants is just what it is...wearing  pants.

Pants are immodest because they show form, and because they're men's clothing, it has nothing to do with skin.  And there is something in Tanach that says men can't wear women's clothing and vice versa.

For Jews or anyone who wishes to be modest, it is best to not wear any clothing that might make a man have a sexual desire to undress her, marry her, have sex with her, divorce her, all in a split second's thought.

Pants do not necessarily show the female figure more than a skirt. Sometimes it is the opposite..The reality is the bottom line...If i can look at the woman and not for a moment even imagine her naked, then she is dressed properly.

Men, understand something. Women have been kidnapped and raped wearing long night gowns, or baggy clothes under large winter coats. That proves that some men don't care WHAT a woman is wearing. They're going to think what they wish about her appearance. When little girls *shudder* or older women are kidnapped and raped or looked at sexually, it has nothing to do with their clothes. But it has everything to do with the fact that there are sick individuals just walking around as free as jay birds with sick thoughts in their heads.

Certainly in this instance you're right....but that's not the point we are making here.

We're talking about women walking around in public with their cleavage in the air.  Forget about the insane people..It's the non-insane people...who may not act upon insanity, but lead them to do other things that are "unholy".

If they're following the Torah, I understand what you're saying but remember, the most powerful body part on a male OR female is their brain. Even if a woman is covered from head to toe, that doesn't stop even the most descent man from wondering what she looks like under their clothes. There are women who look at attractive men, then wonder what their children would look like if they got married. Fantasy isn't a bad thing..in fact, it's healthy. However, sick people can take fantasy to another level quicker than anyone else.

In my opinion, fantasies about other women while a man is married to his own wife isn't such a good thing..although I'm sure it happens to the best of every single one of us..female and male.

I never mentioned it being okay if a married male has fantasies about other women. A decent man doesn't always mean a married man.

So then you proved my point...A married man will still look..but if there are no opportunities to look he'll be better off and a better husband.

So if men were blind and stripped of the right to admire the beauty of a woman,  they'd be better suited husbands? lol Women can look attractive in any way. Some men think women who don't wear makeup are attractive, while some men think that women who wear skirts are attractive. Is it wrong for a man to even think that a woman is attractive when he first meets her, or even sees her on the street?

That's not what I said.  One can admire beauty...it's taking the beauty and making something sexual to it.

Some women are wholesome pretty with makeup wearing nice clothes..even pants...

Other women, distract attention from their face and brain to their cleavage or butt. 

When did the discussion take a turn into inappropriate blouses and tight pants? I thought that some of you (not necessarily you, Dan) were against women wearing ANY kind of pants; even baggy pants.

Many Jewish religious and observant circles believe that women should wear skirts and men wear pants.  This doesn't necessarily mean that this should apply to non-Jews...so you're in the clear, Erica.

The reasoning by some rabbis about the skirts are two that I know of.  That pants are men's clothing and that cross-dressing is wrong.  Jewihs women wear women's clothing and men men's clothing.  The second one is that pants may extentuate the female form more than a skirt and therefore reduces her modesty.

NOt all rabbis feel this way, but I respect those who do feel this way.

The bottom line, i believe, to these rules is that:

1. Cross dressing can lead to confusion...Look at the trans sexuals today...the ones that do a good job of it look like women...and woa would be a man who gets attractd to that thinking it is a woman...not a good thing.

2. THe female form is very sexy and can potentially lead some men astray.

So these rabbinical rules are fences...

I'll give you an example...waiting for a subway there is a yellow line that no one should cross so that no accidents should befall them.  Some people wait right behind the yellow line. HOwever, I wait far away from the yellow line.  These Jewish fences are similar also.

Except for they're required.

[Just Erica]

With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.

Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?

***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.

[Dr. Dan]

OdKahaneChai: Can you please explain, for a friend of mine, why a woman
 is allowed to wear a blouse, but not pants?
OdKahaneChai: He contends that it's the same concept, and that the
 Rabbonim are contradicting themselves
Rabbi Velvel: The reason Halachah discourages women from wearing pants
 is because the pant garment more clearly emphasizes the women's body
 outline as opposed to a skirt.
Rabbi Velvel: How can the same be said about the blouse?
Rabbi Velvel: Pants might be considered more suggestive and less
 concealing then a skirt/dress

Not entirely true...Those skirts can look really pretty on a woman.....

Who said anything about looking pretty?

So this rabbi suggests that a woman wearing pants shows off the shape of her body better than a skirt.  And the body can cause a man to stray from knowing the woman's brain.
However, if the pants are baggy or designed in such a way that it doesn't extentuate the body, it woud lhave to be permitted.
Therefore, it is not that pants are a man's clothing that a woman shouldn't wear it, but that she wearing pants may in fact compromise the modesty.
This type of modesty is a fence around the torah.
All i have to say is be careful of other fences that might come from this one..the next step might be wearing a burka, Gd forbid.

One is not allowed to cover the face.

what about shadore.

[Dr. Dan]

I wear pants. 

It all depends.  Sometimes skirts can be modest or immodest.  The same holds true for jeans.

I love pants. However , being a female who was once kicked out of a church for wearing pants  , I'm more for women wearing them than ever. lol I wear long skirts and maybe shorter (knee-length) flowing skirts. I feel feminine in everything I wear though. (It's important though, being a Chicagoan and all...that I wear pants during the harsh winters. Looking pretty, or feminine isn't worth me freezing my touchas off. )

Can't you wear pants under your skirt?

No. lol I would wear a long winter coat or just wear pants to work.

But a skirt is more modest.

What, is that a male answer? LOL Come on now. I think some men are just threatened by women who wear pants. I don't know WHY but that's just strange. Anyway, I'd be more concerned with how long the skirt is (for my own taste) than whether wearing pants or not will make me look less pure.

I love skirts but I love having the freedom to choose whether I wear a skirt or something else.

It's not a "Male answer," it's G-d's answer.  We follow His Word...

The Bible also said that women shouldn't cut their hair.

Show me where it says that.  And I don't mean in the Goyishe "Bible," in Tanach...

How is a skirt more modest than pants?

Exactly, Doc. From what I read here, showing skin is immoral. This comment isn't against you, Dr. Dan but I think some men feel theatened when women wear pants... Remember, back in the days before women's rights and suffrage, men were the only people wearing pants. Women picked up the idea that they could wear pants also... for more practical reasons (because a lot of women worked in the fields and pants protected their legs). Now it's wrong? I think that's a sexist attitude.

Also, I want to point out that there is no section in the Bible that says "Woman! Thou shalt not wear pants!" From all of the religious pictures I've seen, I didn't even see MEN in pants. They wore robes. How many of you would actually walk out of your apartments/ houses right now, sporting the fashions of Israel, B.C.E. ? (Not that they were bad...) My point is that times change and people's tastes change with said times. Stop thinking that if a woman wears pants that she must be raging against the machine or something. Sometimes wearing pants is just what it is...wearing  pants.

Pants are immodest because they show form, and because they're men's clothing, it has nothing to do with skin.  And there is something in Tanach that says men can't wear women's clothing and vice versa.

For Jews or anyone who wishes to be modest, it is best to not wear any clothing that might make a man have a sexual desire to undress her, marry her, have sex with her, divorce her, all in a split second's thought.

Pants do not necessarily show the female figure more than a skirt. Sometimes it is the opposite..The reality is the bottom line...If i can look at the woman and not for a moment even imagine her naked, then she is dressed properly.

Men, understand something. Women have been kidnapped and raped wearing long night gowns, or baggy clothes under large winter coats. That proves that some men don't care WHAT a woman is wearing. They're going to think what they wish about her appearance. When little girls *shudder* or older women are kidnapped and raped or looked at sexually, it has nothing to do with their clothes. But it has everything to do with the fact that there are sick individuals just walking around as free as jay birds with sick thoughts in their heads.

Certainly in this instance you're right....but that's not the point we are making here.

We're talking about women walking around in public with their cleavage in the air.  Forget about the insane people..It's the non-insane people...who may not act upon insanity, but lead them to do other things that are "unholy".

If they're following the Torah, I understand what you're saying but remember, the most powerful body part on a male OR female is their brain. Even if a woman is covered from head to toe, that doesn't stop even the most descent man from wondering what she looks like under their clothes. There are women who look at attractive men, then wonder what their children would look like if they got married. Fantasy isn't a bad thing..in fact, it's healthy. However, sick people can take fantasy to another level quicker than anyone else.

In my opinion, fantasies about other women while a man is married to his own wife isn't such a good thing..although I'm sure it happens to the best of every single one of us..female and male.

I never mentioned it being okay if a married male has fantasies about other women. A decent man doesn't always mean a married man.

So then you proved my point...A married man will still look..but if there are no opportunities to look he'll be better off and a better husband.

So if men were blind and stripped of the right to admire the beauty of a woman,  they'd be better suited husbands? lol Women can look attractive in any way. Some men think women who don't wear makeup are attractive, while some men think that women who wear skirts are attractive. Is it wrong for a man to even think that a woman is attractive when he first meets her, or even sees her on the street?

That's not what I said.  One can admire beauty...it's taking the beauty and making something sexual to it.

Some women are wholesome pretty with makeup wearing nice clothes..even pants...

Other women, distract attention from their face and brain to their cleavage or butt. 

When did the discussion take a turn into inappropriate blouses and tight pants? I thought that some of you (not necessarily you, Dan) were against women wearing ANY kind of pants; even baggy pants.

Many Jewish religious and observant circles believe that women should wear skirts and men wear pants.  This doesn't necessarily mean that this should apply to non-Jews...so you're in the clear, Erica.

The reasoning by some rabbis about the skirts are two that I know of.  That pants are men's clothing and that cross-dressing is wrong.  Jewihs women wear women's clothing and men men's clothing.  The second one is that pants may extentuate the female form more than a skirt and therefore reduces her modesty.

NOt all rabbis feel this way, but I respect those who do feel this way.

The bottom line, i believe, to these rules is that:

1. Cross dressing can lead to confusion...Look at the trans sexuals today...the ones that do a good job of it look like women...and woa would be a man who gets attractd to that thinking it is a woman...not a good thing.

2. THe female form is very sexy and can potentially lead some men astray.

So these rabbinical rules are fences...

I'll give you an example...waiting for a subway there is a yellow line that no one should cross so that no accidents should befall them.  Some people wait right behind the yellow line. HOwever, I wait far away from the yellow line.  These Jewish fences are similar also.

Except for they're required.

Women are not required to wear skirts. They are required to cover their knees and elbows... Men are required to NOT where women's garb.

[newman]

With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.

Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?

***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.

1/ I'm not saying clothes make any difference to a rapist. They'll go for a woman in a power suit just as quick as one in a mini skirt. I'm just saying some women feel more secure in jeans because access to their privates is harder for a would-be attacker.

2/ Do I have to explain statistics to you for the 100th time? There are far more balack rapists per capita than white as you well know. In europe the tiny (5%) muSSlim population account for over 50% of all rapes. I imagine the blacks of the USA have a similar showing in the rape statistics relative to there overall % of population.

[Just Erica]

OdKahaneChai: Can you please explain, for a friend of mine, why a woman
 is allowed to wear a blouse, but not pants?
OdKahaneChai: He contends that it's the same concept, and that the
 Rabbonim are contradicting themselves
Rabbi Velvel: The reason Halachah discourages women from wearing pants
 is because the pant garment more clearly emphasizes the women's body
 outline as opposed to a skirt.
Rabbi Velvel: How can the same be said about the blouse?
Rabbi Velvel: Pants might be considered more suggestive and less
 concealing then a skirt/dress

Not entirely true...Those skirts can look really pretty on a woman.....

Who said anything about looking pretty?

So this rabbi suggests that a woman wearing pants shows off the shape of her body better than a skirt.  And the body can cause a man to stray from knowing the woman's brain.
However, if the pants are baggy or designed in such a way that it doesn't extentuate the body, it woud lhave to be permitted.
Therefore, it is not that pants are a man's clothing that a woman shouldn't wear it, but that she wearing pants may in fact compromise the modesty.
This type of modesty is a fence around the torah.
All i have to say is be careful of other fences that might come from this one..the next step might be wearing a burka, Gd forbid.

One is not allowed to cover the face.

But to most men, faces are beautiful also. So what do you do about that? If a man can look at a woman's elbow and decide that the woman is beautiful, why can't he feel the same about her face?

My point is that putting sanctions on what a woman should or shouldn't wear is pointless because no matter what, a man will find something beautiful about her. She could be hajib'ed from head to toe but to some men, the way she walks is attractive also.

[Just Erica]

With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.

Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?

***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.

1/ I'm not saying clothes make any difference to a rapist. They'll go for a woman in a power suit just as quick as one in a mini skirt. I'm just saying some women feel more secure in jeans because access to their privates is harder for a would-be attacker.

2/ Do I have to explain statistics to you for the 100th time? There are far more balack rapists per capita than white as you well know. In europe the tiny (5%) muSSlim population account for over 50% of all rapes. I imagine the blacks of the USA have a similar showing in the rape statistics relative to there overall % of population.

I don't care, really because in reality, anyone who rapes is a threat to females and males everywhere. My point is that there are whites in the fold also who rape. I'm not going out looking for 5% of Muslim men to rape me, I'm looking out for ANY man who'd try.

[newman]

With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.

Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?

***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.

1/ I'm not saying clothes make any difference to a rapist. They'll go for a woman in a power suit just as quick as one in a mini skirt. I'm just saying some women feel more secure in jeans because access to their privates is harder for a would-be attacker.

2/ Do I have to explain statistics to you for the 100th time? There are far more balack rapists per capita than white as you well know. In europe the tiny (5%) muSSlim population account for over 50% of all rapes. I imagine the blacks of the USA have a similar showing in the rape statistics relative to there overall % of population.

I don't care, really because in reality, anyone who rapes is a threat to females and males everywhere. My point is that there are whites in the fold also who rape. I'm not going out looking for 5% of Muslim men to rape me, I'm looking out for ANY man who'd try.

You've missed the point as usual.

A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.

This is the 500th time I (along with Ze'ev, Bullcat and others) have had to explain this concept to you. Why does it not sink in?

[Just Erica]

With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.

Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?

***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.

1/ I'm not saying clothes make any difference to a rapist. They'll go for a woman in a power suit just as quick as one in a mini skirt. I'm just saying some women feel more secure in jeans because access to their privates is harder for a would-be attacker.

2/ Do I have to explain statistics to you for the 100th time? There are far more balack rapists per capita than white as you well know. In europe the tiny (5%) muSSlim population account for over 50% of all rapes. I imagine the blacks of the USA have a similar showing in the rape statistics relative to there overall % of population.

I don't care, really because in reality, anyone who rapes is a threat to females and males everywhere. My point is that there are whites in the fold also who rape. I'm not going out looking for 5% of Muslim men to rape me, I'm looking out for ANY man who'd try.

You've missed the point as usual.

A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.

This is the 500th time I (along with Ze'ev, Bullcat and others) have had to explain this concept to you. Why does it not sink in?

You and your analogies...like I said, I'm not going out looking for black men or muslim men to rape me or my girls. I'm safeguarding them and teaching them to fear ANY stranger who may have thoughts of hurting them. Percentages aren't on my mind at this time. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of Muslims will rape me, a black man will try. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of black or white men will rape me, a Muslim will try. I just choose to be leary of people I get bad vibes from..not necessarily someone of a certain race.

[newman]

With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.

Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?

***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.

1/ I'm not saying clothes make any difference to a rapist. They'll go for a woman in a power suit just as quick as one in a mini skirt. I'm just saying some women feel more secure in jeans because access to their privates is harder for a would-be attacker.

2/ Do I have to explain statistics to you for the 100th time? There are far more balack rapists per capita than white as you well know. In europe the tiny (5%) muSSlim population account for over 50% of all rapes. I imagine the blacks of the USA have a similar showing in the rape statistics relative to there overall % of population.

I don't care, really because in reality, anyone who rapes is a threat to females and males everywhere. My point is that there are whites in the fold also who rape. I'm not going out looking for 5% of Muslim men to rape me, I'm looking out for ANY man who'd try.

You've missed the point as usual.

A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.

This is the 500th time I (along with Ze'ev, Bullcat and others) have had to explain this concept to you. Why does it not sink in?

You and your analogies...like I said, I'm not going out looking for black men or muslim men to rape me or my girls. I'm safeguarding them and teaching them to fear ANY stranger who may have thoughts of hurting them. Percentages aren't on my mind at this time. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of Muslims will rape me, a black man will try. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of black or white men will rape me, a Muslim will try. I just choose to be leary of people I get bad vibes from..not necessarily someone of a certain race.

You're avoiding the issue.

Why did you say .......

There are white rapists also

?

What point were you trying to make?

[Just Erica]

With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.

Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?

***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.

1/ I'm not saying clothes make any difference to a rapist. They'll go for a woman in a power suit just as quick as one in a mini skirt. I'm just saying some women feel more secure in jeans because access to their privates is harder for a would-be attacker.

2/ Do I have to explain statistics to you for the 100th time? There are far more balack rapists per capita than white as you well know. In europe the tiny (5%) muSSlim population account for over 50% of all rapes. I imagine the blacks of the USA have a similar showing in the rape statistics relative to there overall % of population.

I don't care, really because in reality, anyone who rapes is a threat to females and males everywhere. My point is that there are whites in the fold also who rape. I'm not going out looking for 5% of Muslim men to rape me, I'm looking out for ANY man who'd try.

You've missed the point as usual.

A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.

This is the 500th time I (along with Ze'ev, Bullcat and others) have had to explain this concept to you. Why does it not sink in?

You and your analogies...like I said, I'm not going out looking for black men or muslim men to rape me or my girls. I'm safeguarding them and teaching them to fear ANY stranger who may have thoughts of hurting them. Percentages aren't on my mind at this time. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of Muslims will rape me, a black man will try. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of black or white men will rape me, a Muslim will try. I just choose to be leary of people I get bad vibes from..not necessarily someone of a certain race.

You're avoiding the issue.

Why did you say .......

There are white rapists also

?

What point were you trying to make?

Because you never bring up white rapists when we have these discussions. NEVER. You make it seem as though they don't exist. Give every evil rapist equal bashing.

[newman]

With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.

Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?

***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.

1/ I'm not saying clothes make any difference to a rapist. They'll go for a woman in a power suit just as quick as one in a mini skirt. I'm just saying some women feel more secure in jeans because access to their privates is harder for a would-be attacker.

2/ Do I have to explain statistics to you for the 100th time? There are far more balack rapists per capita than white as you well know. In europe the tiny (5%) muSSlim population account for over 50% of all rapes. I imagine the blacks of the USA have a similar showing in the rape statistics relative to there overall % of population.

I don't care, really because in reality, anyone who rapes is a threat to females and males everywhere. My point is that there are whites in the fold also who rape. I'm not going out looking for 5% of Muslim men to rape me, I'm looking out for ANY man who'd try.

You've missed the point as usual.

A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.

This is the 500th time I (along with Ze'ev, Bullcat and others) have had to explain this concept to you. Why does it not sink in?

You and your analogies...like I said, I'm not going out looking for black men or muslim men to rape me or my girls. I'm safeguarding them and teaching them to fear ANY stranger who may have thoughts of hurting them. Percentages aren't on my mind at this time. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of Muslims will rape me, a black man will try. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of black or white men will rape me, a Muslim will try. I just choose to be leary of people I get bad vibes from..not necessarily someone of a certain race.

You're avoiding the issue.

Why did you say .......

There are white rapists also

?

What point were you trying to make?

Because you never bring up white rapists when we have these discussions. NEVER. You make it seem as though they don't exist. Give every evil rapist equal bashing.

That's like saying somebody complains about unreliable De Loreans but doesn't mention unreliable Toyotas. There's a reason.............. PROPORTIONALITY.

I repeat (and I'll keep repeating it 'til it sinks in):

A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.

[Just Erica]

With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.

Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?

***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.

1/ I'm not saying clothes make any difference to a rapist. They'll go for a woman in a power suit just as quick as one in a mini skirt. I'm just saying some women feel more secure in jeans because access to their privates is harder for a would-be attacker.

2/ Do I have to explain statistics to you for the 100th time? There are far more balack rapists per capita than white as you well know. In europe the tiny (5%) muSSlim population account for over 50% of all rapes. I imagine the blacks of the USA have a similar showing in the rape statistics relative to there overall % of population.

I don't care, really because in reality, anyone who rapes is a threat to females and males everywhere. My point is that there are whites in the fold also who rape. I'm not going out looking for 5% of Muslim men to rape me, I'm looking out for ANY man who'd try.

You've missed the point as usual.

A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.

This is the 500th time I (along with Ze'ev, Bullcat and others) have had to explain this concept to you. Why does it not sink in?

You and your analogies...like I said, I'm not going out looking for black men or muslim men to rape me or my girls. I'm safeguarding them and teaching them to fear ANY stranger who may have thoughts of hurting them. Percentages aren't on my mind at this time. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of Muslims will rape me, a black man will try. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of black or white men will rape me, a Muslim will try. I just choose to be leary of people I get bad vibes from..not necessarily someone of a certain race.

You're avoiding the issue.

Why did you say .......

There are white rapists also

?

What point were you trying to make?

Because you never bring up white rapists when we have these discussions. NEVER. You make it seem as though they don't exist. Give every evil rapist equal bashing.

That's like saying somebody complains about unreliable De Loreans but doesn't mention unreliable Toyotas. There's a reason.............. PROPORTIONALITY.

I repeat (and I'll keep repeating it 'til it sinks in):

A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.

And I'll keep saying THIS until it sinks in (which it never will). You make it seem as though the white men who rape aren't doing anything wrong because black men are raping more than they are. When you neglect to even bring ALL evil rapists into question, you make it seem as though one group is better than the other.

I don't have an issue with the statistics, I have an issue with you not adding EVERYONE who rapes in the same bunch.

[newman]

With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.

Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?

***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.

1/ I'm not saying clothes make any difference to a rapist. They'll go for a woman in a power suit just as quick as one in a mini skirt. I'm just saying some women feel more secure in jeans because access to their privates is harder for a would-be attacker.

2/ Do I have to explain statistics to you for the 100th time? There are far more balack rapists per capita than white as you well know. In europe the tiny (5%) muSSlim population account for over 50% of all rapes. I imagine the blacks of the USA have a similar showing in the rape statistics relative to there overall % of population.

I don't care, really because in reality, anyone who rapes is a threat to females and males everywhere. My point is that there are whites in the fold also who rape. I'm not going out looking for 5% of Muslim men to rape me, I'm looking out for ANY man who'd try.

You've missed the point as usual.

A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.

This is the 500th time I (along with Ze'ev, Bullcat and others) have had to explain this concept to you. Why does it not sink in?

You and your analogies...like I said, I'm not going out looking for black men or muslim men to rape me or my girls. I'm safeguarding them and teaching them to fear ANY stranger who may have thoughts of hurting them. Percentages aren't on my mind at this time. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of Muslims will rape me, a black man will try. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of black or white men will rape me, a Muslim will try. I just choose to be leary of people I get bad vibes from..not necessarily someone of a certain race.

You're avoiding the issue.

Why did you say .......

There are white rapists also

?

What point were you trying to make?

Because you never bring up white rapists when we have these discussions. NEVER. You make it seem as though they don't exist. Give every evil rapist equal bashing.

That's like saying somebody complains about unreliable De Loreans but doesn't mention unreliable Toyotas. There's a reason.............. PROPORTIONALITY.

I repeat (and I'll keep repeating it 'til it sinks in):

A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.

And I'll keep saying THIS until it sinks in (which it never will). You make it seem as though the white men who rape aren't doing anything wrong because black men are raping more than they are. When you neglect to even bring ALL evil rapists into question, you make it seem as though one group is better than the other.

I don't have an issue with the statistics, I have an issue with you not adding EVERYONE who rapes in the same bunch.

That's an invention.

I NEVER said whites who rape are doing nothing wrong. I just don't mention them because there are not enough in % terms to worry about as far as generalisations about ethnicity go.

That's why jesse jackson was releved to see white kids behind him and not black ones. Now, I'm sure jesse would tell you there are bad white kids, too. But HE understands the concept of proportionality.



Get it now?

[OdKahaneChai]

Well I don't know how I can explain it any more ways, the Halacha is what the Halacha is.

[jdl4ever]

Rabbis are not allowed to make any new Rabbinical decrees in our time (with rare exceptions like the Gadol Hador making one accepted by most of Israel) since there is no Sanhedrin.  Just about all Rabbincal decrees ever made are recorded in the Talmud.  Therefore, there is no "Rabbinical Decree" ever made specifically against wearing pants anywhere in the Talmud.  I don't know who made this nonsense up.  The only reason why it used to be forbidden was that it used to be a male's only form of clothing and this is a Torah prohibition.  Nowadays I see no logic why pants should not be allowed as more women wear pants than skirts in many areas.