American first, Jew second

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

I have to agree with Trumpeldor on this one.  Considering yourself to be a loyal American isn't self-hating, and what's with all of this business about needing to choose whether either your Americanism or your Judaism is dominant?  Why can't one's identity as an American AND a Jew be equal to one another?

because there will be times when American interests will be different from Jewish interests and at such a time we must be able to choose. We can't hide from problems, it is not easy to choose but ultimately we must.

Please give me an example when Jewish and American interests have previously conflicted (other than a baseball playoff game occurring on Shabbat).

Well first you have to define to me what you consider an American interest, but one example could be WW2 when America wanted to have low immigration quotas and prevent the country from being overrun with the Jewish refugees from Europe.

[Trumpeldor]

What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?

First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).

To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.

And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.

Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!

And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.

I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.

Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....

Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.

HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.

but your covenant to G-d takes precedence. No one (as far as I know) has ever made a covenant with America. We have a special bond with G-d and nothing can change that, not even our own wishes.
Also if Israel is the best place for Jews what lets some be exceptions and remain in America?

Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it is practical or even desired.

but we always try to strive for the ideal, so we should do our best to go to Israel and be the best we can

If you gave me 2 million dollars I would go to Israel tomorrow. I can't say that moving to Israel would make me a better person or a better Jew. I would just be richer and have a nice condo near the beach!

[Trumpeldor]

I have to agree with Trumpeldor on this one.  Considering yourself to be a loyal American isn't self-hating, and what's with all of this business about needing to choose whether either your Americanism or your Judaism is dominant?  Why can't one's identity as an American AND a Jew be equal to one another?

because there will be times when American interests will be different from Jewish interests and at such a time we must be able to choose. We can't hide from problems, it is not easy to choose but ultimately we must.

Please give me an example when Jewish and American interests have previously conflicted (other than a baseball playoff game occurring on Shabbat).

Well first you have to define to me what you consider an American interest, but one example could be WW2 when America wanted to have low immigration quotas and prevent the country from being overrun with the Jewish refugees from Europe.

America was not pursuing its national interest in that case. America's moral imperative to save Jews aside, do you know how much more quickly America could have recovered from the Depression had it such an influx of brains and skill?

Yes, America was deeply worried about the communist elements, but they did a good enough job deporting the Emma Goldman types out by the hundreds.

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?

First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).

To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.

And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.

Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!

And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.

I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.

Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....

Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.

HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.

but your covenant to G-d takes precedence. No one (as far as I know) has ever made a covenant with America. We have a special bond with G-d and nothing can change that, not even our own wishes.
Also if Israel is the best place for Jews what lets some be exceptions and remain in America?

Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it is practical or even desired.

but we always try to strive for the ideal, so we should do our best to go to Israel and be the best we can

If you gave me 2 million dollars I would go to Israel tomorrow. I can't say that moving to Israel would make me a better person or a better Jew. I would just be richer and have a nice condo near the beach!

There is more to life than monetary wealth. A Jew in Israel is spiritually much wealthier as there are mitzvot that can only be performed in Israel.

[Lisa]

A Jew in Israel is spiritually much wealthier as there are mitzvot that can only be performed in Israel.

Does that also apply to the kookly Israeli leftists?

[raiseyourfist]

I think what Trumpeldor is trying to get at is that countries like America are a safe haven for all people from all walks of life to worship their beliefs without reprisal...

Unfortunately both America and Israel have gone in the toilet in recent times, but Israel is still the homeland of the jews..

I do not think it is compulsory for jews to live in Israel but they should at least have something to do with it to keep the dream alive and protect G-d's 6000 year old promise to his people...

BASICALLY WHAT HASHEM ULTIMATELY WANTS IS FOR US TO BE GOOD LOYAL PEOPLE AND TO RESPECT THOSE WHO DESERVE IT...

[Wayne Jude]

Its bull to think American is our first allegiance.Im first a Christian second an Italian Jew.Then Im American.America is dead now,,,,,, who are you? wayne  jude!

[Trumpeldor]

I think what Trumpeldor is trying to get at is that countries like America are a safe haven for all people from all walks of life to worship their beliefs without reprisal...

Unfortunately both America and Israel have gone in the toilet in recent times, but Israel is still the homeland of the jews..

I do not think it is compulsory for jews to live in Israel but they should at least have something to do with it to keep the dream alive and protect G-d's 6000 year old promise to his people...

BASICALLY WHAT HASHEM ULTIMATELY WANTS IS FOR US TO BE GOOD LOYAL PEOPLE AND TO RESPECT THOSE WHO DESERVE IT...

Thank you for that, RYF, as that accurately reflects my sentiment. However, Chaim will vehemently disagree with this and I encourage the people who agree with Chaim on this issue to take a stand.

[Trumpeldor]

Its bull to think American is our first allegiance.Im first a Christian second an Italian Jew.Then Im American.America is dead now,,,,,, who are you? wayne  jude!

Forgive me but how can you be both a Christian and a Jew?

I know this thread is all about dual identities, but these two seem incompatible by even the most reasonable of standards.

[Wayne Jude]

please Jew by blood By faith Christian.

[Trumpeldor]

please Jew by blood By faith Christian.

ok ok

[RationalThought110]

because there will be times when American interests will be different from Jewish interests and at such a time we must be able to choose. We can't hide from problems, it is not easy to choose but ultimately we must.

The interests of CFR/Bilderbergs isn't the interest of Americans. 

[RationalThought110]

Shouldn't the question be how people could claim to be an American and a Mexican or an American and a Muslim?

[Trumpeldor]

Shouldn't the question be how people could claim to be an American and a Mexican or an American and a Muslim?

I'm sure there are some Mexican-Americans who love both countries. I know that when the U.S. played Italy in the World Cup tournament, many Italian-Americans cheered for Italy.

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

Shouldn't the question be how people could claim to be an American and a Mexican or an American and a Muslim?

I'm sure there are some Mexican-Americans who love both countries. I know that when the U.S. played Italy in the World Cup tournament, many Italian-Americans cheered for Italy.

That is the exact issue I'm getting at, though at a larger scale. One has to choose. Either we are Americans or we are Jews, America has been a wonderful country but it will take us in it's wonder to the spiritual death of our people

[Wayne Jude]

yes Christian and Jew alike  Lou..

[RationalThought110]

I'm sure there are some Mexican-Americans who love both countries. I know that when the U.S. played Italy in the World Cup tournament, many Italian-Americans cheered for Italy.

Mexico tries to undermine the US and they shouldn't be trusted.  If people in the US have a loyalty to Mexico, then they need to be doubted. 

[Trumpeldor]

I'm sure there are some Mexican-Americans who love both countries. I know that when the U.S. played Italy in the World Cup tournament, many Italian-Americans cheered for Italy.

Mexico tries to undermine the US and they shouldn't be trusted.  If people in the US have a loyalty to Mexico, then they need to be doubted. 

Perhaps the Mexican government tries to undermine the U.S. but not the Mexican people.

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

I'm sure there are some Mexican-Americans who love both countries. I know that when the U.S. played Italy in the World Cup tournament, many Italian-Americans cheered for Italy.

Mexico tries to undermine the US and they shouldn't be trusted.  If people in the US have a loyalty to Mexico, then they need to be doubted. 

You can't expect people to give up their heritage just because they emigrated. Those that do give up their heritage should reconsider and took a look back at where they came from

[Wayne Jude]

HUH?

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

HUH?

people have heritage and family roots that go backmany years. For example yours are probably European , when you came to America it shouldn't be expected of you to give up your history and heritage.

[RationalThought110]

[quote author=lou13ss link=topic=9574.



That is the exact issue I'm getting at, though at a larger scale. One has to choose. Either we are Americans or we are Jews, America has been a wonderful country but it will take us in it's wonder to the spiritual death of our people
[/quote]



Israel doesn't do anything to undermine the US.  Mexico and some other countries do though. 

[Trumpeldor]

Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.   

[Wayne Jude]

Yes I get you lou.Sorry

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.   

Who do you think was doing a lot of the pressuring for this to occur, as much as I hate olmert and co, the US had a big hand in this evil policy with all the pressuring and also the $ involved.