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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: WestCoastJTF on November 29, 2007, 11:31:48 PM

Title: Why did God let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: WestCoastJTF on November 29, 2007, 11:31:48 PM
Did we already have this Ask JTF question?

I was wondering about Chaim's opinion on why God allowed the holocaust happened.  (I realize God Himself didn't do it, the Nazis did, but still, it happened to the Jewish people with whom God has an eternal covenant).
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: ItalianZionist on November 30, 2007, 12:20:07 AM
Did we already have this Ask JTF question?

I was wondering about Chaim's opinion on why G-d allowed the holocaust happened.  (I realize G-d Himself didn't do it, the Nazis did, but still, it happened to the Jewish people with whom G-d has an eternal covenant).
not sure, but I think that chaim might say that the jews did not keep their covenant with God...Also evil people have free will and we don't know all the ways of God yet..
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: Dexter on November 30, 2007, 01:28:50 AM
I heard that rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu said that the Holocaust was Gog uMagug.
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: White Israelite on November 30, 2007, 01:33:01 AM
The holocaust cannot be changed, yes it is a sad event but we must realize a holocaust can happen to anyone for any reason. Many people were killed. 13 million slaughtered (6 million Jews), We must do what we can to prevent another one, physically.
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: Trumpeldor on November 30, 2007, 01:35:38 AM
There are many wonderful books on this topic.
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: yeshuadisciple on November 30, 2007, 02:32:08 AM
Did we already have this Ask JTF question?

I was wondering about Chaim's opinion on why G-d allowed the holocaust happened.  (I realize G-d Himself didn't do it, the Nazis did, but still, it happened to the Jewish people with whom G-d has an eternal covenant).
not sure, but I think that chaim might say that the jews did not keep their covenant with G-d...Also evil people have free will and we don't know all the ways of G-d yet..

I agree with that and also, Genesis 50:20

Quote
As for you,  you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Joseph's brother's intended to kill him and eventually sold him into slavery, but God ultimately used it to rescue him and his family from the coming famine.  Although evil men exercised their free will, I believe God used the holocaust to restore the nation of Israel.  The only reason the UN passed the resolution on the formation of Israel was the collective guilt the nations felt over the holocaust.   That resolution would never pass today, nor at any other time in history. 
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: Husar on November 30, 2007, 03:07:38 AM
I asked myself this question SO MANY TIMES...

 :-[
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: raiseyourfist on November 30, 2007, 05:18:29 AM
To the jews, Chaim commented on the reason was G-d punished them for not living in Israel and so Hashem destroyed 1/3rd of the jewish population...

sounds cruel? well thats G-d covenant with the jewish people for you...

This is why Israel needs to be kept safe from being taken over by the Arabs who are taking over the country little by little... to the jews out there i would say, to be zionistic which now isn't so much a case of now living in Israel (although that would be ideal) , supporting the country as best one can will help the country's plight from being taken over.. that can also include funding the heroic kahanist jews living in Judea Samaria that are in threat from losing their land..

HELP US BECOME A MASS MOVEMENT IS PROBABLY THE BEST SOLUTION AT THIS TIME BECAUSE THE MORE MEMBERS THE BETTER
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: Merkava on November 30, 2007, 05:44:36 AM
When someone says they will kill you - you better beleive them. Holocaust happened and a 2nd one is in the making. WE MUST STOP IRAN NOW !!!
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: JTFFan on November 30, 2007, 05:45:28 AM
When someone says they will kill you - you better beleive them. Holocaust happened and a 2nd one is in the making. WE MUST STOP IRAN NOW !!!

We need to bomb Iran to stop another holocaust! O0
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: Dexter on November 30, 2007, 05:51:16 AM
When someone says they will kill you - you better beleive them. Holocaust happened and a 2nd one is in the making. WE MUST STOP IRAN NOW !!!

We need to bomb Iran to stop another holocaust! O0
Why to go so far while you have real Nazis right near your border ?
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: JTFFan on November 30, 2007, 06:09:01 AM
When someone says they will kill you - you better beleive them. Holocaust happened and a 2nd one is in the making. WE MUST STOP IRAN NOW !!!

We need to bomb Iran to stop another holocaust! O0
Why to go so far while you have real Nazis right near your border ?

That's also true, it's a very mixed and amalgamated situation with also nazis near the border.
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: Dr. Dan on November 30, 2007, 06:43:28 AM
Can't speak for Gd, but I can give you my answer:

So jews love each other more and to wake up Jews to the reality in the world.
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: WestCoastJTF on December 02, 2007, 01:16:39 AM
There are many wonderful books on this topic.

Care to recommend one?
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: jdl4ever on December 02, 2007, 01:38:02 AM
Can't speak for Gd, but I can give you my answer:

So jews love each other more and to wake up Jews to the reality in the world.
Well you do have a point.  My grandfather hinted to me that he thought part of the reason was for what you stated.  He told me a story he witnessed that there was a Jewish boy in his town in Poland who had a Jewish Girlfriend from a poor family in the same town.  They were hanging out together for a while so the girl's mother asked the boy's mother "it isn't right for them to hang out for so long, let them get married" and she responded in anger that she won't let them get married until she gets a dowry.  They had a custom in those days that the girl's family usually gave a sum of money to the boy's family as a wedding present or a dowry.  So the two never got married.  Then the Holocaust happened and they were both killed. 

Then he told me another story about a Misnagad Rabbi who died and his first born was a Chassidish Rabbi who took over the inheritance of a large area of Europe.  His brother was a Misnagad Rabbi who could not make a living since his brother took over the Rabbinical position and no one would take him as a Rabbi so he went to my grandfather's town which was mostly Misnagid and he was well liked by the town and became the Rabbi of this small town.  Well, his brother was jealous because he was supposed to control every town in that large area of Europe and didn't care if his own brother starved.  He got into a feud with his brother and the Chassidsh one informed on my grandfather's father to the Polish gov't and put him in jail because he was the Gabbi of the Shul and said "may the Rabbi get up to the Torah" to the Misnagad Rabbi.  The Polish Judge heard the case and said it was a religious matter and he didn't want to get involved so he released my great grandfather.  This generated a lot of hatred between the Chassidim and the Misnagdim in this town and they bitterly hated each other.  Well, in the Holocaust the Misnagad Rabbi Zs'l was killed and the Chassidish one YSV lived.  After the Holocaust this hatred abated and my grandfather married a Chassidish women from the same town, something they never would have done before the Holocaust.  You can't explain these things.
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: Dr. Dan on December 02, 2007, 02:14:10 AM
I mean...Jews in general woudln't be as much who we are today if it hadn't been for the Shoah...but still...we have a lot of work to do. I think the bottom line is that the what we consider self hating today isn't half as bad of what might have existed in Europe before the Shoah...what do you guys think?
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: jdl4ever on December 02, 2007, 02:21:22 AM
Self hate today is the worst it has ever been and hatred between Jews is also greater.  Also Torah wisdom has declined as well to it's lowest level in Jewish History I think.
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: Dr. Dan on December 02, 2007, 02:25:59 AM
Self hate today is the worst it has ever been and hatred between Jews is also greater.  Also Torah wisdom has declined as well to it's lowest level in Jewish History I think.


I mean it's not like I"m 80 and lived during the time of the Shoah...but i assume that self-hatred isn't as bad it was back then.  The problem with most Jews today is that we are TOO NICE...  I think that if Arabs started attacking Jews, immediately left wing and right winged Jews would fight back and stand together to stay alive.  But when a threat isn't that eminent, Jews will be at each others' throats.

albiet..there are some nuts out there that will side with Arabs even at a time of war...but much much much less than back then.. Back then, Jews were so blind that 6 million allowed for themselves to be murdered. Today, maybe, GD forbid, 500,000 are willing to be murdered.
Title: Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
Post by: jdl4ever on December 02, 2007, 02:31:48 AM
Self hatred and being pacifists are two separate things.  Today Jews are not as pacifist like as they were in Europe since they learned from the Shoah.  However, Jews today are more self hating and have less pride in themselves then they did in Europe and Torah wisdom is also very low today.  In Europe, Jews would generally only go to Yeshiva until the age of 14 and after that they would become an apprentice and get a job.  Even so the education method was so incredible that these people know more Torah and more about Judaism than many Jews who learn in Yeshiva for 20 years today.  I have over 100 years of wisdom on my shoulders since I absorbed the Tradition and stories from my grandparents.