JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on August 18, 2008, 08:07:19 PM
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Ralph,
We all saw your question to Chaim this week. Tell me--just what is your deal, bro? I remember at one point last year you told us you have a significant gambling problem, but you haven't exactly shared anything else about yourself. You don't like white people, you don't like Christians, you don't want blacks to leave--why are you here? Tell us exactly who you are. So, we know you aren't white and aren't Christian--neither is 7/8 of the population of the earth. What racial background are you? Are you black? Asian? Hispanic? What religion are you, if you have any? And yes--for the record, I agree that Buddhists, etc. should be part of our movement (considering they are getting murdered by Muslim Nazis in nations like Sri Lanka), but what exactly do you have against white Christians?
Last but not least--do you support Israel or Jews at all? I haven't ever actually seen you say that you do, or for that matter, agree with our core beliefs, at all.
I'm eager to hear your answers.
Chaimfan
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Comrade Ralph, I also read your post with interest. I am a Christian white person who is an American. Notice the American is not proceded by a hyphen.
I have no problem with people of color, if they act like civilized people. I am not a rascist. If Clarence Thomas was running for president, I would vote for him before I would vote for McCain. I don't care for people that consider themselves victims or play the group politics game. If you are downtrodden, you have the God-given ability to lift yourself out of that hole if you work together, united as a team. People of color fail because thier lives are filled with hate by the poor leadership that they pick.
And bottom line, in response to your comment about supporting Israel and the Jews, I don't need Israel or the Jews to go to heaven, I have already achieved that privelige, which is based on my belief in the New Testament. Out of respect for my allies on this forum I won't go into that here, but I would be glad to debate that with you in a PM.
Yes God tells us to support his people, Israel and Jerusalem, but if I was an athiest, the intelligent decision, would still be to support the Jews. If you take religion totally out of the picture, and look at this strictly from a political persepctive. The Jews are right and Islam sucks.
I have read to the end of the Book and the Temple will be rebuilt and all of you friggin demons are going to spend eternity in a lake of fire.
Ralph, sorry if I offend, but get a life and make something out of yourself.
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Ralph,
We all saw your question to Chaim this week. Tell me--just what is your deal, bro? I remember at one point last year you told us you have a significant gambling problem, but you haven't exactly shared anything else about yourself.
I have completely overcome that addiction and it was the most difficult and stressful time of my life.
You don't like white people, you don't like Christians, you don't want blacks to leave--why are you here? Tell us exactly who you are. So, we know you aren't white and aren't Christian--neither is 7/8 of the population of the earth. What racial background are you? Are you black? Asian? Hispanic? What religion are you, if you have any? And yes--for the record, I agree that Buddhists, etc. should be part of our movement (considering they are getting murdered by Muslim Nazis in nations like Sri Lanka), but what exactly do you have against white Christians?
I once mentioned my mother is an Iranian Jew and my father is an Iranian Armenian. I don't consider myself Jewish religiously. If you are a Christian, that's fine I have no problem with that. I once agreed with JTF on virtually everything but began to gradually disagree after I started thinking of the persecution the Jews had to suffer in Europe. I believe the White Christians in America are using the Jews for their own spiritual benefit. They hate Jews and they foster ancient hatred against them. Even Ann Coulter showed her dark side. The Jews are 'a people that shall dwell alone' and there are many Jews who believe there should be no alliance with non-Jews. I wouldn't go that far because I think Hindus, Sikhs and Asians are worthy allies. When Allen-T was banned there were many Christians that showed their true face during that affair and they were banned as well. 'Christian Love' comes to mind. I don't like the Blacks for using slavery as an excuse to hate Whites because they would've been worse to Whites had they had their power. Blacks hate Jews and all non-Blacks and I would like to see them deported without a penny in compensation. I know that Chaim knows there will be a conflict between White Christians and Jews in the future so I don't understand his unity with them. I know you'll disagree but my father was very compelling in convincing me that Iranian Jews were generally treated better in Iran than the Ashkenazim were in Europe.
Last but not least--do you support Israel or Jews at all? I haven't ever actually seen you say that you do, or for that matter, agree with our core beliefs, at all.
I'm eager to hear your answers.
Chaimfan
Of course I do. I prefer to discuss my disagreements, that's why I don't discuss Israel much.
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I have read to the end of the Book and the Temple will be rebuilt and all of you friggin demons are going to spend eternity in a lake of fire.
That is the exact type of arrogant, shameful and conceited garbage I'm talking about. I guess all non-Christians deserve to go to hell, right?
Ralph, sorry if I offend, but get a life and make something out of yourself.
You want me to make something out of myself by doing what? Converting to Christianity?
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I know that Chaim knows there will be a conflict between White Christians and Jews in the future so I don't understand his unity with them.
I listened to the show this afternoon, and I don't remember Chaim saying there will be a conflict with white Christians in the future. He just said that we differ on theology.
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If your dad was "Iranian Armenian" what would he know about how Jews were treated in Iran? Lots of Iranians say they treated Jews so benevolently, but not so with Islam. And Islam has long been an influence in Iran. Try asking some actual Iranian Jews; what does your mom say about it? Often the Iranian Jews have a different story to tell than the prideful Persians with their bragging about tolerance. Secondly, who cares about this kind of argument? There's no "popularity contest" about who treated their Jews the best in history and that's who you can trust or can't trust. How the non-Jews treat the Jews is like the passing wind, good one day but could become bad at any drop of the hat. And in most places in history it was bad at at least some time or another. That is why our place is only in Israel, with a Jewish leadership.
Look deeper into "Iranian" history and you will see that the quite benevolent Persian regime in Bavel became totally oppressive and brutal against Jews in the later centuries leading up to the Islamic invasion after muhammad (after the long period of "tolerance" and goodwill that Jews enjoyed in Bavel for quite a long time). The talmud details some of the cruel horrible things the Persian regime began to do to persecute Jews. But like all Diaspora communities, the Bavel Jews should have known better that it wouldn't last forever. THe goodwill never lasts forever. (Just as today, the Iranian regime shows its true jihad colors against Israel while it pays lipservice to the 1/4 of Iranian Jews who still remain after the Islamic revolution and whom the Iranian regime kindly "tolerates" by not wiping them out - how generous of them)
But anyone who is willing to show goodwill toward us NOW, why shouldn't we accept it? That is just silly. The Iranian mullahs are building nukes and arming hezbollah to launch rockets at our cities as they have already done, and I'm supposed to feel nostalgic about the "past" tolerance of Iran rather than accept the CURRENT evangelical support for Israel? That is insanity.
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He once said if America is attacked with nuclear weapons, the economy will suffer and an anti-Semitic demagogue will take power. David Duke outright blamed the Jews for 9/11 and I think he would be a good candidate.
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In addition, it is both unfair and inaccurate to equate the Christians of European past (and present, although many are becoming atheist there) - with American Christians.
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I once mentioned my mother is an Iranian Jew and my father is an Iranian Armenian.
Then you are Jewish whether or not you observe.
I once agreed with JTF on virtually everything but began to gradually disagree after I started thinking of the persecution the Jews had to suffer in Europe.
What does JTF have to do with historic persecution?
I believe the White Christians in America are using the Jews for their own spiritual benefit. They hate Jews and they foster ancient hatred against them.
What is your evidence for this? This is rather silly, don't you think?
Sidenote--what do you think of nonwhite Christians such as Joseph Farah and Alan Keyes?
Even Ann Coulter showed her dark side.
Ann Coulter is not a Christian, just a loudmouthed fraud who is paid handsomely by big corporations to be their stooge.
because I think Hindus, Sikhs and Asians are worthy allies.
You don't think there are anti-Semitic Asians? What do you think of the regimes in China and North Korea? Or Asian Muslims?
When Allen-T was banned there were many Christians that showed their true face during that affair and they were banned as well. 'Christian Love' comes to mind.
Two members isn't many. The only so-called Christian posters I recall who took Anus-T's side were Christian Love (as you mentioned) and ftf. The vast majority of us detest that porn-posting homosexual Nazi. They constituted about five percent of all of our "Christian" members at that time, hardly "many".
I know that Chaim knows there will be a conflict between White Christians and Jews in the future so I don't understand his unity with them.
What are you talking about?
I know you'll disagree but my father was very compelling in convincing me that Iranian Jews were generally treated better in Iran than the Ashkenazim were in Europe.
That's because the shah actually did treat them well for his reign. But he ruled Iran for about forty years out of a 5,000 year history in that Nazi nation.
Of course I do. I prefer to discuss my disagreements, that's why I don't discuss Israel much.
This almost sounds like a trolling statement.
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If your dad was "Iranian Armenian" what would he know about how Jews were treated in Iran? Lots of Iranians say they treated Jews so benevolently, but not so with Islam. And Islam has long been an influence in Iran. Try asking some actual Iranian Jews; what does your mom say about it? Often the Iranian Jews have a different story to tell than the prideful Persians with their bragging about tolerance. Secondly, who cares about this kind of argument? There's no "popularity contest" about who treated their Jews the best in history and that's who you can trust or can't trust. How the non-Jews treat the Jews is like the passing wind, good one day but could become bad at any drop of the hat. And in most places in history it was bad at at least some time or another. That is why our place is only in Israel, with a Jewish leadership.
Look deeper into "Iranian" history and you will see that the quite benevolent Persian regime in Bavel became totally oppressive and brutal against Jews in the later centuries leading up to the Islamic invasion after muhammad (after the long period of "tolerance" and goodwill that Jews enjoyed in Bavel for quite a long time). The talmud details some of the cruel horrible things the Persian regime began to do to persecute Jews. But like all Diaspora communities, the Bavel Jews should have known better that it wouldn't last forever. THe goodwill never lasts forever. (Just as today, the Iranian regime shows its true jihad colors against Israel while it pays lipservice to the 1/4 of Iranian Jews who still remain after the Islamic revolution and whom the Iranian regime kindly "tolerates" by not wiping them out - how generous of them)
But anyone who is willing to show goodwill toward us NOW, why shouldn't we accept it? That is just silly. The Iranian mullahs are building nukes and arming hezbollah to launch rockets at our cities as they have already done, and I'm supposed to feel nostalgic about the "past" tolerance of Iran rather than accept the CURRENT evangelical support for Israel? That is insanity.
I'm sorry I mistyped I meant my mom. The Jews were treated worse In Europe. This is not even a matter of debate. The Holocaust alone put the Jews through more torment than all of Iranian history. I despise the Muslims anyway, so it doesn't make much difference for me.
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He once said if America is attacked with nuclear weapons, the economy will suffer and an anti-Semitic demagogue will take power. David Duke outright blamed the Jews for 9/11 and I think he would be a good candidate.
David Duke couldn't get 1% of 1% of the white vote if his life depended on it. Pat Buchanan, who has the same views but is very slightly less open about them, got .5% of the vote in 2000.
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He once said if America is attacked with nuclear weapons, the economy will suffer and an anti-Semitic demagogue will take power. David Duke outright blamed the Jews for 9/11 and I think he would be a good candidate.
David Duke couldn't get 1% of 1% of the white vote if his life depended on it. Pat Buchanan, who has the same views but is very slightly less open about them, got .5% of the vote in 2000.
Thats for now, the economy is still standing and okay (at least this is what people think, and aren't panicking yett). Once the country goes bankrupt and people realise it, this country will be a bigger mess. Also once Osama gets elected, people like Duke and others like him will have an easier chance of being elected, thats if the country wont be destroyed enough.
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The Jews were treated worse In Europe. This is not even a matter of debate.
I beg to differ. The savage extermination campaigns Mohammed (ys"vz) spearheaded against the Arabian Jews of the Quraysh tribes was being treated better than in Europe? The fiendish pogroms that the Iranian Zoroastrians committed hundreds of years before Islam even existed were benevolent? The only reason they weren't able to pull off a Shoah was the fact that the technology did not exist for it at the time. The vicious riots and pogroms that broke out across the Islamic world in 1948, against Jews who had lived there for 2,000 years, were tolerant?
Please read up on some facts.
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Thats for now, the economy is still standing and okay (at least this is what people think, and aren't panicking yett). Once the country goes bankrupt and people realise it, this country will be a bigger mess. Also once Osama gets elected, people like Duke and others like him will have an easier chance of being elected, thats if the country wont be destroyed enough.
The people who would be receptive to David Duke (or for that matter Barack Obama) are not Christians. David Duke is a pagan (an Odinist, or Asatru) who wants whites worldwide to embrace the ancient Nordic animist religion. Most true white supremacists today are atheists/agnostics or pagans.
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What does JTF have to do with historic persecution?
JTF is pro-Christian and pro White even though Whites have a history of murdering them.
What is your evidence for this? This is rather silly, don't you think?
I can't produce evidence for everything but I believe everyone keeps grudges. All the Armenians I ever spoke with hate Turks, Blacks hate Whites because of slavery, Chinese dislike the Japanese etc.
Sidenote--what do you think of nonwhite Christians such as Joseph Farah and Alan Keyes?
Non-white Christians were not in a position to harm Jews unlike White Christians so I don't know.
Ann Coulter is not a Christian, just a loudmouthed fraud who is paid handsomely by big corporations to be their stooge.
If she isn't a Christian I don't know who is.
You don't think there are anti-Semitic Asians? What do you think of the regimes in China and North Korea? Or Asian Muslims?
China and North Korea are evil governments. I doubt the Chinese or Koreans would be remotely as anti-Jewish as Whites.
This almost sounds like a trolling statement.
I don't come on forums to agree with people. That's pretty boring.
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If your dad was "Iranian Armenian" what would he know about how Jews were treated in Iran? Lots of Iranians say they treated Jews so benevolently, but not so with Islam. And Islam has long been an influence in Iran. Try asking some actual Iranian Jews; what does your mom say about it? Often the Iranian Jews have a different story to tell than the prideful Persians with their bragging about tolerance. Secondly, who cares about this kind of argument? There's no "popularity contest" about who treated their Jews the best in history and that's who you can trust or can't trust. How the non-Jews treat the Jews is like the passing wind, good one day but could become bad at any drop of the hat. And in most places in history it was bad at at least some time or another. That is why our place is only in Israel, with a Jewish leadership.
Look deeper into "Iranian" history and you will see that the quite benevolent Persian regime in Bavel became totally oppressive and brutal against Jews in the later centuries leading up to the Islamic invasion after muhammad (after the long period of "tolerance" and goodwill that Jews enjoyed in Bavel for quite a long time). The talmud details some of the cruel horrible things the Persian regime began to do to persecute Jews. But like all Diaspora communities, the Bavel Jews should have known better that it wouldn't last forever. THe goodwill never lasts forever. (Just as today, the Iranian regime shows its true jihad colors against Israel while it pays lipservice to the 1/4 of Iranian Jews who still remain after the Islamic revolution and whom the Iranian regime kindly "tolerates" by not wiping them out - how generous of them)
But anyone who is willing to show goodwill toward us NOW, why shouldn't we accept it? That is just silly. The Iranian mullahs are building nukes and arming hezbollah to launch rockets at our cities as they have already done, and I'm supposed to feel nostalgic about the "past" tolerance of Iran rather than accept the CURRENT evangelical support for Israel? That is insanity.
I'm sorry I mistyped I meant my mom. The Jews were treated worse In Europe. This is not even a matter of debate. The Holocaust alone put the Jews through more torment than all of Iranian history. I despise the Muslims anyway, so it doesn't make much difference for me.
It is easy to compare something to the shoah and then say 'so and so' treated better. ANYTHING is better compared to the shoah. But you can't take one small window in Iranian history and pretend that that is everything from start to finish. Furthermore, 3/4 of the Jewish population left Iran following the Islamic revolution. They left for a reason, and they weren't stupid. But like I said, this argument is silly. Please comment on my pertinent point which is, what does Iranian tolerance have to do with anything, and why should it matter considering they are a direct enemy today. Even if you think evangelical American Christian support of Israel (and JTF?) is "selfish" because they do it to get into heaven, first of all who cares, so what, and secondly why should that be a reason not to accept it? Also, please consider that it is not accurate or fair to equate Christian Europe with American Christians.
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What does JTF have to do with historic persecution?
JTF is pro-Christian and pro White even though Whites have a history of murdering them.
JTF is not "pro-Christian," JTF is pro-Israel. If anything JTF is 'pro-Judaism' but it's not about missionizing or convincing people of other religions to adopt Judaism so that also is not an accurate term. JTF is CERTAINLY not advocating Jews to adopt anything but Judaism.
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I beg to differ. The savage extermination campaigns Mohammed (ys"vz) spearheaded against the Arabian Jews of the Quraysh tribes was being treated better than in Europe? The fiendish pogroms that the Iranian Zoroastrians committed hundreds of years before Islam even existed were benevolent? The only reason they weren't able to pull off a Shoah was the fact that the technology did not exist for it at the time. The vicious riots and pogroms that broke out across the Islamic world in 1948, against Jews who had lived there for 2,000 years, were tolerant?
Please read up on some facts.
I agree, they didn't have the capabilities that the Europeans did.
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Shalom Ralph, I must reflect with much of what you say. Much is founded in fact and other is something to be questioned. Keep thinking and asking questions.
Your opinion about Christians is largely true as the Christian is a double edged sword in all actuality. Not according to them as individuals but the ideology itself as to which is why there is 34000 "sects" of Christianity.
Many Christians are very good people. You are correct that the history re: Jews is stain by a repugnant record. Many Christians like Pastor John Hagee are very supportive of Israel but still the loom is over the heads of the eventual Jewish mass conversion to Christianity at the end of Christian days....or the second coming.
I have many good Christian friends and there are many Christian supporters of JTF. They are very good people from a Jewish perspective.
I think the best position is to keep asking questions, keep delving into independant research and continue to live a good, moral life...
Two cents from Ol-MarZutra ;)
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JTF is pro-Christian and pro White even though Whites have a history of murdering them.
As do Arabs, Turks, Africans, Asians, etc.
I can't produce evidence for everything but I believe everyone keeps grudges. All the Armenians I ever spoke with hate Turks, Blacks hate Whites because of slavery, Chinese dislike the Japanese etc.
So because of that, it's okay and good for you to hate at will too, whether or not it is merited?
Non-white Christians were not in a position to harm Jews unlike White Christians so I don't know.
What about the Arab so-called Christians who ruled the Middle East for hundreds of years before Islam and had very anti-Semitic societies?
If she isn't a Christian I don't know who is.
Has she accepted Jesus as the Messiah? Does she attend church? Is she part of a home fellowship group? What are her "fruits of the spirit"--i.e. evidences from her living and lifestyle that she has undergone a conversion of heart?
China and North Korea are evil governments. I doubt the Chinese or Koreans would be remotely as anti-Jewish as Whites.
Some of them are, just like some whites are, but not all. I am pretty sure that, if for no other reason than indoctrination by their regimes, a greater percentage of average Chinese citizens today are anti-Semitic than average American whites.
I don't come on forums to agree with people. That's pretty boring.
Are you trying to say that you like causing trouble?
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I agree, they didn't have the capabilities that the Europeans did.
So you are admitting they wanted to have a Shoah?
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but the ideology itself as to which is why there is 34000 "sects" of Christianity.
I disagree here--there may be 34,000 sects, but there is one true church. The actual definition of a Christian is extremely concise and unequivocal: someone who believes that Jesus is G-d (not the offspring of G-d, or a separate deity, as is a common misconception) and the Messiah, and believes and lives out accurately the teachings of both Testaments of the Bible. Many so-called Christians are nominal phonies or warped heretics, but I do not count them. There is one true church, and one definition of Christian, regardless of number of denominations.
but still the loom is over the heads of the eventual Jewish mass conversion to Christianity at the end of Christian days....or the second coming.
I don't know of any true Christians who want to force Jews to convert, period.
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Ralph my parents are Iranian Jews who came to America long before the revolution. They would agree with you that Jews in Iran had it better for the most part than the Ashkenazi Jews of Europe. But, it still wasn't perfect. There were pogroms, and the Mashadi Jews at one point, pretended to convert to Islam to get the moosies off their backs.
Otherwise, I'm going to disagree with you. So what if the white Christians are supporting Israel just so they can go to heaven? In Judaism, we care more about good deeds rather that what might be going through a persons head. Also, if you, as a Jew don't believe in the Second Coming Of Christ (or however which way the N.T. ends with all the Jews ending up in Israel), what do you care what the Christian Zionists believe? How do their beliefs impede yours in any way? Are you in favor of giving up more land to the moosies and creating a terrorist fakestinian hamastinian state?
I'm sorry but I just don't see the point of all this. It's like these liberal Jewish organizations getting all hysterical when they discover that Mormons posthumously convert Jews in their temples, and ask them not to do it. So what? If Jews are born of Jewish mothers and practice their religion, they know their religion won't suddently change in the next world based on what someone else with no relation to them says or does.
Finally, if you're against JTF working with Christians, then what's the point of posting here? And if you think all white Christians are bad, then why even live in America? Why not move to Israel, China, or some other Muslim country?
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It is easy to compare something to the shoah and then say 'so and so' treated better. ANYTHING is better compared to the shoah. But you can't take one small window in Iranian history and pretend that that is everything from start to finish. Furthermore, 3/4 of the Jewish population left Iran following the Islamic revolution. They left for a reason, and they weren't stupid. But like I said, this argument is silly. Please comment on my pertinent point which is, what does Iranian tolerance have to do with anything, and why should it matter considering they are a direct enemy today. Even if you think evangelical American Christian support of Israel (and JTF?) is "selfish" because they do it to get into heaven, first of all who cares, so what, and secondly why should that be a reason not to accept it? Also, please consider that it is not accurate or fair to equate Christian Europe with American Christians.
I mentioned Iran to show that as evil as the Iranians are the White Christians were worse. I think it's extremely disrespectful and arrogant that these creatures think they will go to heaven at the expense of Jews burning in hell forever. This is bordering Islamic evil. I equate Christian Europe with American Christians because they are the same people. First they try to commit a genocide against Jews, then when they fail to do that, they say Jews will go to hell forever, just support Israel so we can go to heaven. There are Christians who don't think like this. There aren't absolutes in almost anything but they are mostly evil. I guarantee you the Jews are headed for a conflict with these people.
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I disagree here--there may be 34,000 sects, but there is one true church.
Yea, but everyone will say that they are the true church, etc. for example the Catholics will say that they have the true church, the protestents will say no, the catholic church is whatever, and they are the true Christians, etc. With this anytime someone doesn"t agree with you and the other party identifies themselves as "Christian" would then be called a "so-called Christian" just becuase you (by you I dont necessary mean you personally, although you also do it a lot) disagree with them, or they show to be bad people.
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" think it's extremely disrespectful and arrogant that these creatures think they will go to heaven at the expense of Jews burning in hell forever."
I would have to say who cares? Let people believe in whatever they feel like as long as they do not touch me or other Jews.
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I would have to say who cares? Let people believe in whatever they feel like as long as they do not touch me or other Jews.
I agree.
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Yea, but everyone will say that they are the true church, etc. for example the Catholics will say that they have the true church, the protestents will say no, the catholic church is whatever, and they are the true Christians, etc. With this anytime someone doesn"t agree with you and the other party identifies themselves as "Christian" would then be called a "so-called Christian" just becuase you (by you I dont necessary mean you personally, although you also do it a lot) disagree with them, or they show to be bad people.
I do not say that I am a part of the "one true church" (well, I am, but I don't mean that my particular congregation is the only true one). Christians who claim that their sect alone is right are clearly in the wrong, and violating Biblical teachings. Some of them are just mistaken, and others are heretics who are not part of the true church at all. But not all Christians are like that and it's not fair for people to point out Christian factions when many other faiths are also rife with internecine disagreement.
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If your dad was "Iranian Armenian" what would he know about how Jews were treated in Iran? Lots of Iranians say they treated Jews so benevolently, but not so with Islam. And Islam has long been an influence in Iran. Try asking some actual Iranian Jews; what does your mom say about it? Often the Iranian Jews have a different story to tell than the prideful Persians with their bragging about tolerance. Secondly, who cares about this kind of argument? There's no "popularity contest" about who treated their Jews the best in history and that's who you can trust or can't trust. How the non-Jews treat the Jews is like the passing wind, good one day but could become bad at any drop of the hat. And in most places in history it was bad at at least some time or another. That is why our place is only in Israel, with a Jewish leadership.
Look deeper into "Iranian" history and you will see that the quite benevolent Persian regime in Bavel became totally oppressive and brutal against Jews in the later centuries leading up to the Islamic invasion after muhammad (after the long period of "tolerance" and goodwill that Jews enjoyed in Bavel for quite a long time). The talmud details some of the cruel horrible things the Persian regime began to do to persecute Jews. But like all Diaspora communities, the Bavel Jews should have known better that it wouldn't last forever. THe goodwill never lasts forever. (Just as today, the Iranian regime shows its true jihad colors against Israel while it pays lipservice to the 1/4 of Iranian Jews who still remain after the Islamic revolution and whom the Iranian regime kindly "tolerates" by not wiping them out - how generous of them)
But anyone who is willing to show goodwill toward us NOW, why shouldn't we accept it? That is just silly. The Iranian mullahs are building nukes and arming hezbollah to launch rockets at our cities as they have already done, and I'm supposed to feel nostalgic about the "past" tolerance of Iran rather than accept the CURRENT evangelical support for Israel? That is insanity.
I'm sorry I mistyped I meant my mom. The Jews were treated worse In Europe. This is not even a matter of debate. The Holocaust alone put the Jews through more torment than all of Iranian history. I despise the Muslims anyway, so it doesn't make much difference for me.
Times have changed, our enemies shift from one group to another. For 2000 years years we were persecuted by christians, that made muslims loook civil.
But since the holocaust,
Christians have gone quite passive, in europe they are less religious, and in america many love jews and israel (some just to get jews to convert, but others do so sincerely, and/or because of the verse in genesis that he who blesses Israel is blessed, and he who curses israel is cursed0
Muslims have radicalised (perhaps back to how they were in mohammed's time), this has happened with the rise of wahabism, which moves away from "classical islam" - which persecuted jews moderately compared to christians and tries to move towards the original back, I think, to basic desert islam.
Our enemies now are the "palestinians" not the Germans. (not that we should forgive germany. we cannot).
Evangelical Christians have a different background to medieval christians that would have thrown jews into fire and pushed a crucifix in their face while chanting from their bible and yelling "SATAN"!
You have to keep your finger on the pulse and your eyes open, and be aware of dramatic changes or shifts in society and take them into account! You can't make your decisions based on how life was in another era.
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It's like these liberal Jewish organizations getting all hysterical when they discover that Mormons posthumously convert Jews in their temples, and ask them not to do it. So what?
A tangent I know, but Mormons are not true Christians by any scholarly definition. They are polytheists who base their lives on the teachings of one "prophet".
Finally, if you're against JTF working with Christians, then what's the point of posting here? And if you think all white Christians are bad, then why even live in America? Why not move to Israel, China, or some other Muslim country?
I agree; he all but said he posts here only to stir the pot.
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I disagree here--there may be 34,000 sects, but there is one true church.
Yea, but everyone will say that they are the true church, etc. for example the Catholics will say that they have the true church, the protestents will say no, the catholic church is whatever, and they are the true Christians, etc. With this anytime someone doesn"t agree with you and the other party identifies themselves as "Christian" would then be called a "so-called Christian" just becuase you (by you I dont necessary mean you personally, although you also do it a lot) disagree with them, or they show to be bad people.
well that is a bit incomplete, isn't it.
because you would say that orthodox judaism is the true judaism.
The fact that others (karaites for example!) would claim that theirs is true, doesn't mean that neither of you can claim it. Or say that judaism = theirs and the other is the fraud. It depends who one is talking to.
Amongst JTF, people understand that reform,conservative,liberal,recon, e.t.c. are frauds, they themselves don't even claim to be going back to true judaism. Ther religion, that the torah is not binding is something new..
But if we are talking to karaites, there is no point saying their so-called judaism, because they cannot be expected to accept that. A theological debate between O jews and karaites, would be the only way to argue it.
At JTF, we have different christians. Catholics, protestants, working together, and this isn't really the place for theological debate on that . So, if, CF was trying to say that some group of christians here are so-called christians , that would seem to be a bit inappropriate. Because the only fair way to say that would be to have a theological debate, and theological debate between 2 allies, one group of christians and another, is not what JTF is about. There must be other forums for that.
Not knowing much about christianity, I don't know what exactly the implications of CF's "true church" thing was, who would object e.t.c.
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Let's assume that it's fine they think Jews are going to hell. What about the fact that they've persecuted Jews before. Even if you don't believe that people should pay for the crimes of their fathers, it's practically guaranteed that the Jews are headed for a conflict with these people and a big one.
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I agree; he all but said he posts here only to stir the pot.
If you think I'm trying to convince people to become anti-Christian you're wrong. I know I can't, besides you started this thread not me.
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Let's assume that it's fine they think Jews are going to hell. What about the fact that they've persecuted Jews before. Even if you don't believe that people shouldn't pay for the crimes of their fathers, it's practically guaranteed that the Jews are headed for a conflict with these people and a big one.
many consider the Holocaust to have been the big one.
There may be another big one but there is no immediate risk of that at all. The immediate risks are clearly from the arabs.
Things don't just happen out of thin air. You have to keep your finger on the pulse. "Sharpen your political antennae"
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Evangelical Christians have a different background to medieval christians that would have thrown jews into fire and pushed a crucifix in their face while chanting from their bible and yelling "SATAN"!
While this is true for the time being- their are 2 reasons for this. 1- America is a diverse country. It is good in the fact that their is seperation of church and state, although not completly good (expecially in the case with funding private schools, etc.) and their are wayy too many different sects, so no 1 sect has too much power to do what they feel like. - Their is a sort of balance of power where one group is not for the time being, able to physically do what they feel like- which is making everyone accept their positions (unlike in Europe where the church was the state, and many times ran and heavily influenced what happened in the counries and regions of Europe).
Another explanation is that it is an evolutionary process so to speak. I think that the nations (at least Europe, not Arabia) have realised that the whole I will kill you or convert thing- does not work. In fact it only made the Jew hundreds of times stronger, clinging to G-d and the Torah, much more. The real destruction comes through embracing the Jew. Look at it this way- the statistics of the Jewish population in America is going down now, more then the time of the Holocaust (Jewish world population). Infact I believe that during the holocaust their was a positive population growth, while now their is a negative one.
Well whatever it goes down to is that in truth G-d really controlls the world. He is the one who lets or doesn't let anyone (Jew or gentile) do to any other being. If He wants their to be anti-semitism, He will do so, and if not then no. Either way just trust in G-d and dont be afraid or paranoid of anyone or anything. No one can destroy your spirit, but g-d and yourself, so their's no one to fear but G-d and also your actions.
Also about the statement someone made earlier about intent of it not being that important- I disagree, intent is VERY important, and counts as much, if not more then actions.
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The Arabs and Iranians are easy to deal with. There nukes can be taken out with ease and their backward cult will keep them in their inferior state indefinitely. The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews.
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CF you are certainly correct albeit every Church states emphatically the same as their truth is the only true Christianity whether it be Catholic, Mormon, Hashem's Witness, Protestant, Baptist etc.. That's true but your opinions is certainly valid as with Jews; Deformed Jews argue that their "Judaism" is true Judaism and the Orthodox is not.
The entire concept of the second coming of the Christos is for that purpose.... You're opinions from a believing Christians point of view are certainly valid... I'm merely pointing out the specificities of Christianity in general.
Deleted -- this is not the place for that type of discussion
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The Arabs and Iranians are easy to deal with. There nukes can be taken out with ease and their backward cult will keep them in their inferior state indefinitely. The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews.
You're insane.
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Evangelical Christians have a different background to medieval christians that would have thrown jews into fire and pushed a crucifix in their face while chanting from their bible and yelling "SATAN"!
While this is true for the time being- their are 2 reasons for this. 1- America is a diverse country. It is good in the fact that their is seperation of church and state, although not completly good (expecially in the case with funding private schools, etc.) and their are wayy too many different sects, so no 1 sect has too much power to do what they feel like. - Their is a sort of balance of power where one group is not for the time being, able to physically do what they feel like- which is making everyone accept their positions (unlike in Europe where the church was the state, and many times ran and heavily influenced what happened in the counries and regions of Europe).
Another explanation is that it is an evolutionary process so to speak. I think that the nations (at least Europe, not Arabia) have realised that the whole I will kill you or convert thing- does not work. In fact it only made the Jew hundreds of times stronger, clinging to G-d and the Torah, much more. The real destruction comes through embracing the Jew. Look at it this way- the statistics of the Jewish population in America is going down now, more then the time of the Holocaust (Jewish world population). Infact I believe that during the holocaust their was a positive population growth, while now their is a negative one.
Well whatever it goes down to is that in truth G-d really controlls the world. He is the one who lets or doesn't let anyone (Jew or gentile) do to any other being. If He wants their to be anti-semitism, He will do so, and if not then no. Either way just trust in G-d and dont be afraid or paranoid of anyone or anything. No one can destroy your spirit, but g-d and yourself, so their's no one to fear but G-d and also your actions.
Also about the statement someone made earlier about intent of it not being that important- I disagree, intent is VERY important, and counts as much, if not more then actions.
no tzvi, the holocaust did not make the jews stronger, and talking about a positive population growth during the holocaust(whether in america or timbuktu) is ridiculous You are clearly not sensitive to the destruction of ashkenazi jewry..
The spiritual centers for ashkenazim, poland and russia.. are wasteland. The MILLIONS of jews there are gone.
We had a rabbi from there, who held the chafetz chaim's teffilin, he came to britain and - after the holocaust - was the greatest talmudic scholar in europe, in his time, faster than the computer in finding things in the talmud.
The standard of torah there was unbelievable. The yeshivot of exceptional quality. Ashkenazi jews nowadays are clinging onto what was then. It's unbelievable how well ashkenazim have built up what they had, but in america.. But it still doesn't compare to what was in poland! Which is a big reason why they didn't want to leave. Religiously it was a paradise.
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CF you are certainly correct albeit every Church states emphatically the same as their truth is the only true Christianity whether it be Catholic, Mormon, Hashem's Witness, Protestant, Baptist etc.. That's true but your opinions is certainly valid as with Jews; Deformed Jews argue that their "Judaism" is true Judaism and the Orthodox is not.
reform do not argue that they are going back, true judaism . They cannot maintain that. Those that aren't completely retarded might be able to say that they don't beleive in a true judaism.
The entire concept of the second coming of the Christos is for that purpose.... You're opinions from a believing Christians point of view are certainly valid... I'm merely pointing out the specificities of Christianity in general.
Deleted -- see above
You can't put something like that in a "ps" and expect to get away with it , expect people to just buy it.
Deleted - see above
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Lisa adds -- These kinds of discussions about who is or is not the Messiah or G-d are not for here.
I didn't bring up this topic.
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Amongst JTF, people understand that reform,conservative,liberal,recon, e.t.c. are frauds, they themselves don't even claim to be going back to true judaism. Ther religion, that the torah is not binding is something new..
But if we are talking to karaites, there is no point saying their so-called judaism, because they cannot be expected to accept that. A theological debate between O jews and karaites, would be the only way to argue it.
Yeah, and Christians understand that Mormons, JWs, Christian Scientists, etc. are not actual Christians.
So, if, CF was trying to say that some group of christians here are so-called christians , that would seem to be a bit inappropriate.
So I don't know what my own faith teaches? I'm not qualified to say that antisemitic mobs could not possibly be Christians according to the biblical definitions?
Not knowing much about christianity, I don't know what exactly the implications of CF's "true church" thing was, who would object e.t.c.
What I meant is that there are not a jillion different "kinds" of Christians--either you are really one or you aren't, just like with Judaism to use your example.
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Let's assume that it's fine they think Jews are going to hell. What about the fact that they've persecuted Jews before. Even if you don't believe that people should pay for the crimes of their fathers, it's practically guaranteed that the Jews are headed for a conflict with these people and a big one.
You are making completely baseless claims and predictions here.
1--Not all Christians teach that Jews are going to hell.
2--No real Christians ever persecuted Jews. Paul, who was an orthodox Jew, wrote in the book of Romans in the N.T. that Gentile Christians are "grafts" onto the branches of the true tree (the Jews)--which was specifically a warning to them not to get haughty and anti-Semitic.
3--Show me how the fathers of contemporary American Christians are responsible for anti-Semitism.
4--What is your evidence that Jews are headed for "a big conflict" with American Christians?
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The Arabs and Iranians are easy to deal with. There nukes can be taken out with ease and their backward cult will keep them in their inferior state indefinitely. The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews.
This comment has really disturbed me. I couldn't figure out why exactly, until I realized the only place I have every heard the phrase "The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews." I have never ever heard any Jew proclaim that "whites" were his enemy or even adversary. The only place I have heard this phrase used is on Nazi forums.
I believe you are a Nazi and an impersonator. You are trying to foment hate between Jews and Christians on this forum. That is my opinion.
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I believe you are a Nazi and an impersonator. You are trying to foment hate between Jews and Christians on this forum. That is my opinion.
Hmmm.
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We had this type of riff raff before, I haven't been playing attention to this from the beginning but...
Ralph should be banned for making such statements, he knows better than that, he can not go unpunished for this!
Do we have to loose members over this type of stupidity, I say drop the act Ralph, you one of our former disgruntled members who's looking to cause trouble again-
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The Arabs and Iranians are easy to deal with. There nukes can be taken out with ease and their backward cult will keep them in their inferior state indefinitely. The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews.
Whites are capable. Those other groups are pathetic.
That's the difference.
A capable enemy is an effective one.
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It is easy to compare something to the shoah and then say 'so and so' treated better. ANYTHING is better compared to the shoah. But you can't take one small window in Iranian history and pretend that that is everything from start to finish. Furthermore, 3/4 of the Jewish population left Iran following the Islamic revolution. They left for a reason, and they weren't stupid. But like I said, this argument is silly. Please comment on my pertinent point which is, what does Iranian tolerance have to do with anything, and why should it matter considering they are a direct enemy today. Even if you think evangelical American Christian support of Israel (and JTF?) is "selfish" because they do it to get into heaven, first of all who cares, so what, and secondly why should that be a reason not to accept it? Also, please consider that it is not accurate or fair to equate Christian Europe with American Christians.
I mentioned Iran to show that as evil as the Iranians are the White Christians were worse. I think it's extremely disrespectful and arrogant that these creatures think they will go to heaven at the expense of Jews burning in hell forever. This is bordering Islamic evil. I equate Christian Europe with American Christians because they are the same people. First they try to commit a genocide against Jews, then when they fail to do that, they say Jews will go to hell forever, just support Israel so we can go to heaven. There are Christians who don't think like this. There aren't absolutes in almost anything but they are mostly evil. I guarantee you the Jews are headed for a conflict with these people.
There has never been Christian anti-Jewish pogroms in America. It is one of the only majority-Christian countries in history that can say that. Therefore you cannot equate American Christians with Christian Europe. America was a country founded with a majority Christian population and it was also founded on solid righteous principles. People here developed a value system incompatible with Europe, in which the vast majority here are not hateful of Jews. Yeah it can change at any time, like I already said, but I'm not basing on what if, I'm basing this on hard evidence of behavior. America has not massacred Jews in the name of "Christianity" - You can't just brush this aside and ignore this. This sets America apart from Europe in a big way.
Now let's examine RIGHT NOW. Right now, it's Iran developing nukes for the purpose of wiping out Israel. American Christians aren't doing that.
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Let's assume that it's fine they think Jews are going to hell. What about the fact that they've persecuted Jews before. Even if you don't believe that people should pay for the crimes of their fathers, it's practically guaranteed that the Jews are headed for a conflict with these people and a big one.
2--No real Christians ever persecuted Jews. Paul, who was an orthodox Jew, wrote in the book of Romans in the N.T. that Gentile Christians are "grafts" onto the branches of the true tree (the Jews)--which was specifically a warning to them not to get haughty and anti-Semitic.
That's not how the church or christians in medieval europe interpreted that, and I think it's silly to pretend that it is. If you want to call the VAST MAJORITY of medieval "christians" in Christian Europe as "fake Christians" then that is your choice, but most people would disagree and say that this concept is not historically accurate. You are artificially implanting a modern interpretation on a society of the past. ie, what you say is a "real Christian" today, was not considered a "real Christian" back then. It's a modern interpretation.
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That's not how the church or christians in medieval europe interpreted that, and I think it's silly to pretend that it is. If you want to call the VAST MAJORITY of medieval "christians" in Christian Europe as "fake Christians" then that is your choice, but most people would disagree and say that this concept is not historically accurate. You are artificially implanting a modern interpretation on a society of the past. ie, what you say is a "real Christian" today, was not considered a "real Christian" back then. It's a modern interpretation.
C.F. it's not for us Jews to say who is and who is not a real Christian. Kahane Was Right BT was most likely just going by what the people of that time called themselves.
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That's not how the church or christians in medieval europe interpreted that, and I think it's silly to pretend that it is. If you want to call the VAST MAJORITY of medieval "christians" in Christian Europe as "fake Christians"
The vast majority of medieval "Christians" were illiterate peasants with no understanding of Scripture at all, and their leaders were political potentates who used and abused religion for their own purposes (easy to do when your population is that uneducated.
but most people would disagree and say that this concept is not historically accurate.
I am going by what the NT teaches, not the experience of history and the deeds of people whose witnesses (Christianese for lifestyle) did not bear out the existence of fruits of conversion.
You are artificially implanting a modern interpretation on a society of the past.
I go by what the Bible teaches, not what various civilizations that made the profession of being Christian did. I can guarantee you that upwards of 99% of these populations never picked up a Bible in their lives.
, what you say is a "real Christian" today, was not considered a "real Christian" back then. It's a modern interpretation.
There are lots of times when professions of a religion do not match up with reality. During the eras of some of the great prophets (i.e. Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc.) most of Judaism was given over to Baal-worship. Does that mean that that practice of Judaism then was the correct one? Obviously not.
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C.F. it's not for us Jews to say who is and who is not a real Christian. Kahane Was Right BT was most likely just going by what the people of that time called themselves.
Yes, but as a Christian I think I am entitled to speak for my own faith. I know for a fact that biblical literacy in those days was absolutely horrid. Church services were often conducted in Latin, which nobody outside the clergy understood. People blindly went by what their bishops, popes, kings, etc. said. Nobody knew what being a Christian really meant--it was a nominal (i.e. a you are "born one") process. I am entitled to say if and who did not meet the Scriptural criteria for membership in Christendom.
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I now see what you mean. It seems to be a "radical" view that most Christians would take issue with. But I think it's interesting. You are basically agreeing with me though that the modern interpretation of your religion is being applied to the people of the past - but you openly state that your brand's modern interpretation is the correct one and the others were wrong or dishonest. This logic I understand.
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You are basically agreeing with me though that the modern interpretation of your religion is being applied to the people of the past - but you openly state that your brand's modern interpretation is the correct one and the others were wrong or dishonest. This logic I understand.
No, I said that the biblical interpretation is the correct one and that others are wrong and dishonest.
Jesus gave in his Parable of the Seeds four scenarios of people who apparently convert, but only one really does. The others do not have a genuine faith. So this is not a new concept.
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Im one who would die before I would convert. Kiddush Hashem!
muman613
PS: Just before Moshiach comes it will seem like all is lost for the Jewish people. The moslems will seem to be right and the Jews wrong. It is then we will be rewarded for our faith in Hashems promise to send Moshiach.
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Yes, but as a Christian I think I am entitled to speak for my own faith.
{snip}
I am entitled to say if and who did not meet the Scriptural criteria for membership in Christendom.
Of course you are! I'm not disagreeing with you at all.
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You are basically agreeing with me though that the modern interpretation of your religion is being applied to the people of the past - but you openly state that your brand's modern interpretation is the correct one and the others were wrong or dishonest. This logic I understand.
No, I said that the biblical interpretation is the correct one and that others are wrong and dishonest.
You are saying that yours is the "biblical" one. In other words, the correct one. It's just a different way of saying the same thing I said. Those in the past or those who mimick them today would insist their Christianity was/is right. Or in your word choice, they would insist that their Christianity is/was "biblical." You simply say that theirs isn't and that your interpretation is the correct/biblical one. I can understand your logic in this case.
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Of course you are! I'm not disagreeing with you at all.
I know, I know. q_q though thought that it was wrong for me to speak for Christianity though. I needed to say this for the sake of clearing the historical record and, more importantly, to rebut Ralph.
Everybody--Christianity is really not quite as diverse as the figures would make it out to be--the vast majority of the 34,000 sects of it differ over doctrinal variants that are really quite minor and would never, ever say that they alone are the true Christians. Catholics believe that they are the one true church, but do not believe that non-Catholic Christians are phony or going to hell (at least not most of them). All of the other mainstream denominations* (Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Friends, etc.) never once profess to be the only true church.
The sects that exclusively claim that they only are the real believers and all other Christians are going to hell (i.e. Mormons, JWs, etc.) are considered to be cults of Christianity and not real Christians.
Believe it or not, one cannot just believe whatever one wants and call themselves a Christian. The Biblical criteria that is laid out in the N.T. is quite clear:
1: Believe that Jesus Christ is G-d (not an offshoot of G-d, or a separate deity)
2: Understand that the true G-d is the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
3: Undergo a complete and radical change of heart, personal conviction of sin, and repent fully and permanently
4: Abide by the Scriptures of both Testaments
This is how I can say who is a Christian and who isn't. The vast majority of medieval Christians did not live by both Testaments (being illiterate, they couldn't even read a Bible), did not have an abiding faith in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and certainly did not undergo a radical, personal conversion process. Without "fruits of the Spirit" (an important Christian phrase meaning evidence of a changed life, and obedience to the Scriptures), I can very confidently say that the beasts who committed pogroms were pagans with a new name.
*Note--I acknowledge that today many members of these denominations are leftist frauds.
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You are saying that yours is the "biblical" one. In other words, the correct one. It's just a different way of saying the same thing I said.
No, I am saying that the orthodox Christian view is the right, biblical one. You can't compare people who understand the Scriptures with ones who don't. It would be like you having a debate with a completely secular Jew who knows no Torah whatsoever. It would be no contest.
Those in the past or those who mimick them today would insist their Christianity was/is right. Or in your word choice, they would insist that their Christianity is/was "biblical."
It's hard to be "biblical" if you have never read a word of the N.T. in your life, but even pretending that they did, it would not make them right. All sorts of wackjobs, such as the Rev. Fred Phelps, claim that they alone are "biblical" or the only "true Christians". It doesn't mean that they were correct.
You simply say that theirs isn't and that your interpretation is the correct/biblical one. I can understand your logic in this case.
But it is not my interpretation, it is the orthodox (not Orthodox as in the denomination) Christian one.
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You are saying that yours is the "biblical" one. In other words, the correct one. It's just a different way of saying the same thing I said.
No, I am saying that the orthodox Christian view is the right, biblical one. You can't compare people who understand the Scriptures with ones who don't. It would be like you having a debate with a completely secular Jew who knows no Torah whatsoever. It would be no contest.
Those in the past or those who mimick them today would insist their Christianity was/is right. Or in your word choice, they would insist that their Christianity is/was "biblical."
It's hard to be "biblical" if you have never read a word of the N.T. in your life, but even pretending that they did, it would not make them right. All sorts of wackjobs, such as the Rev. Fred Phelps, claim that they alone are "biblical" or the only "true Christians". It doesn't mean that they were correct.
You simply say that theirs isn't and that your interpretation is the correct/biblical one. I can understand your logic in this case.
But it is not my interpretation, it is the orthodox (not Orthodox as in the denomination) Christian one.
What you follow today was not always considered "orthodox"
It is silly to pretend otherwise. When you just openly state that your way is the true interpretation and the ones in the past were wrong or lying/distorting, that can be honest and logical. Don't try to tell me that all of medieval Christian Europe would have stated or admitted that their own way was "not biblical" or not authentic. They would have said their way was right. Their priest said so and so did those who had whatever limited exposure to their scripture that they had. (and the printing press increased exposure to the masses, but it didn't cause adoption of the modern interpretation you follow!) I think it's a stretch and quite silly to pretend otherwise. Or to pretend that all the priests of those days had never seen their own nt...
A comparison to a conflict between religious Jew and a secular Jew who doesn't know Torah is not a valid comparison. Christian Europe was religious Christian, and they thought their way was right, whether it was or it wasn't. I don't know how you can assume if CF went in a time machine and showed a different interpretation, they would all just say, 'of course CF but I'm evil and a pretender what do you expect'.... They were led to believe a different interpretation for century upon century, one which enabled the antisemitism that led to the shoah. You CF simply believe that was a wrong interpretation and yours is the biblically accurate one while theirs isn't/wasn't. For what it's worth, I think if you start claiming more than that you cease making sense...
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What you follow today was not always considered "orthodox"
It is silly to pretend otherwise. When you just openly state that your way is the true interpretation and the ones in the past were wrong or lying/distorting, that can be honest and logical. Don't try to tell me that all of medieval Christian Europe would have stated or admitted that their own way was "not biblical" or not authentic. They would have said their way was right. Their priest said so and so did those who had whatever limited exposure to their scripture that they had. (and the printing press increased exposure to the masses, but it didn't cause adoption of the modern interpretation you follow!) I think it's a stretch and quite silly to pretend otherwise. Or to pretend that all the priests of those days had never seen their own nt...
A comparison to a conflict between religious Jew and a secular Jew who doesn't know Torah is not a valid comparison. Christian Europe was religious Christian, and they thought their way was right, whether it was or it wasn't. I don't know how you can assume if CF went in a time machine and showed a different interpretation, they would all just say, 'of course CF but I'm evil and a pretender what do you expect'.... They were led to believe a different interpretation for century upon century, one which enabled the antisemitism that led to the shoah. You CF simply believe that was a wrong interpretation and yours is the biblically accurate one while theirs isn't/wasn't. For what it's worth, I think if you start claiming more than that you cease making sense...
First off--it looks like you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. You don't like it when I speak about Judaism, you don't like it when I speak about my own faith, and you don't like it when I criticize any figure Chaim himself does. Maybe that is not the case, but I am certain that considering our history of debating, it might appear that way to an outsider. Please note that Lisa, who has been carefully monitoring this thread for religiously inappropriate speech and who has called me out in the past when I overreached, had no problem with what I said.
Now--as to the overall thrust of your argument, it appears that you are saying that the N.T. preaches anti-Semitism. I am pretty sure that that is what you believe--that is exactly what you are arguing, in everything but the literal words, and if that is indeed the case, you should just say it. I will disagree strongly, considering I actually study it, but if you just state this belief, then at least we will each know exactly what the other thinks and it will be done with.
As for everything else, it's pretty much a circular debate that goes back and forth. You don't understand Christianity better than Christians. Do I still believe that the vast majority of these individuals were ignorant and illiterate false Christians? Absolutely. Well upwards of 90% of these populations couldn't even read or write and couldn't understand the Bible if their lives depended on it. I didn't say that the priests were illiterate, but it is true that they intentionally kept Scripture from the masses and used their positions of authority to manipulate and control the peasants. The clergy, owing to their education and status, were considered an elite class--they had land, wealth, and property--and as such had a huge perceived economic interest in dominating the peasantry, starting/averting wars, and oppressing Jews. Masses were all held in Latin so the people didn't even know what was going on in them. And yes--I stand by the statement that they disregarded Scripture, because at that time and era of Christianity the Bible was not even viewed as the source of religious authority--Church tradition was. The Bible was considered, at best, a record of the history of Christianity, a secondary source of authority--but ultimate authority, decisionmaking, and truth was held with the Pontiff. This is really quite easily demonstrable with any historical review.
Were these people "religious"? I guess so--according to what their own version of "Christianity" taught. They were religious like Muslims are. Did they consider themselves "the true Christians"? Yeah. There weren't any dissidents at this time. There was not a dissenting POV. What did this prove? Did they believe what the N.T. and the apostles taught and established? No. They created a perverse and false concept of Christendom, much like many leftist Jews today have created a warped and false version of Judaism (i.e. "social outreach is the truest Torah value", being a light unto the nations means supporting blacks, Arabs, etc.). In their own minds, these nutcases genuinely believe they are "religious Jews", and would have no part of being shown otherwise. Does that make their version more correct than what the Torah actually says?
And lest you bring up that even much later, during the Reformation (i.e. Martin Luther) the attitude towards Jews did not change much, I will state the same thing--that Scripture was disregarded. Luther himself never even sought to start a new religion. Factors like nationalism, tradition, and public opinion, in Europe, continued to be grafted onto religious practice and interpretation--not the other way around. The reason why America has been such a bastion of non-anti-Semitic Christians is quite simple--various colonies of true Christians in Europe saw through this hypocrisy and falsehood and desired to divorce themselves from it and implement true societies abroad.
What you are saying is about as fair as claiming that black African "Christian" nations like Liberia, Sierra Leone, etc. are practicing true N.T. Christianity.
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Shalom,
I would like to respectfully ask that this discussion end peacefully. I would prefer a peaceful solution rather than letting this devolve into namecalling and hard feelings.
Please heed these words...
muman613
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JTF is pro-Christian and pro White even though Whites have a history of murdering them.
What is all this "White" crap? Last time I checked, this wasn't the KKK forum. JTF is a civil rights organization that couldn't give a flip about whether someone is "white" or "non-white". We are Pro White? You can't be serious. Since when did we simplify all this down to a color? Jews are not all "white". In fact, there are many black Jews that we love just as much as the "white" ones.
We aren't pro Christian either. You heard me right. We aren't pro Buddism or pro Hinduism either. We are pro righteous gentile. We are pro Torah. We go by the Torah and believe in the Torah and hold it dear because it's truth. The Torah is very clear on what to do and we believe this is the right thing to do and it's the only answer that makes any sense at all. If a righteous gentile has a different religious belief, they are welcome here but they also understand that this is a Jewish forum. They join along because they believe our cause is just and G-d will bless them deeply for it. What a bunch of wonderful human beings... people who overlook differences because we are more powerful if we join together and because they love Israel and the Jewish people.
Lastly, how can you claim to be Jewish if you don't believe in the Torah? Last time I checked, the only real definition (whether the mother or father isn't Jewish or if someone converted) of what a Jew is was defined by a thing called Judaism. That's kind of where the whole concept of a Jew comes from. If you don't believe in the Torah, then why would you care about Israel? Wouldn't it be just another spot on the map? I think you either do believe to some extent because the alternative is that you only want to cause trouble.
And drop the racial garbage now. We don't care what color people are. We care about what people do.
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<snip>
So, if, CF was trying to say that some group of christians here are so-called christians , that would seem to be a bit inappropriate.
So I don't know what my own faith teaches? I'm not qualified to say that antisemitic mobs could not possibly be Christians according to the biblical definitions?
I said "GROUP" of christians "HERE"
Infact, I said "group of christians here", but I will emphasise GROUP and HERE
Not a single one individual member is of an anti-semitic mob. That was more a problem in medieval times.
I DO think you can make theological statements about your faith - christianity, saying "christians" or so-called christians, in reference to the anti-semitic "christians"(we know what/who we mean) in medieval times. You can make theological statements about your own faith, and on JTF, it's no problem here because there are no medieval christians who would differ and get offended. And if they got offended then good. (I understand that a christian might actually get offended by calling those medieval "christians" , christians.. So since I don't take a position about christian theology, i'm willing to use whatever convention the other person uses, to have the discussion, if I was having the discussion)
-From another post,
I know, I know. q_q though thought that it was wrong for me to speak for Christianity though.
Never make ANY statement about anything I have said, because -too often- you never understand any of it anyway. Stick to quoting me if trying to show what I said.
This is actually the first time I have addressed you directly in this thread, in the sense of quoting you. But it's still not necessarily with you in mind as a "responder". It's just me stating my position.
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<snip>
A comparison to a conflict between religious Jew and a secular Jew who doesn't know Torah is not a valid comparison. <snip>
The comparison is flawed because secular jews don't believe they have the true judaism, they don't believe there is one. They follow the modern nonsensical trend of not believing in truth in religion. They don't believe they are going back to the original.
A correct comparison would be between an orthodox jew and a karaite. Or, if going back hundreds of years, a pharisee and a saduccee. At one time it was Maimonidean and Anti-Maimonidean. And of course we -do- make theological statements about who is correct and who is incorrect.
And BTW, when you say that christianity of today was "not always orthodox", that is not relevant to whether it is true. Or to whether it is true to its text and original meaning. (a jewish comparison would be, I did read that at one time, in one very large jewish area at least , a majourity of jews were - or went - karaite, - the refutation of it by the saadya gaon brought them back, so now karaites number only around 200. Karaites were certainly in large numbers, at one time. They would have considered themselves "orthodox", orthodox meaning right. Of course the term orthodox was adopted recently by Torah jews, to distinguish ourselves from the reform).
And to say that it isn't true to its original text and meaning(which you probably meant to say), is a theological statement about christianity taking a position within it, and it's not a jew's business to do so. Christians , those that believe christianity, can take theological positions on it, and Torah believing jews can take positions on judaism. And just as it's a nuisance when christians like CF take theological positions / make theological statements about/against judaism(within torah true judaism), about satmar for example, so too, it must be a nuisance to christians if jews make theological statements about christianity, saying this form isn't biblical or whatever.
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I have to admit, that I believe in this line (12.3) from the book of Genesis.
I will not claim, that I would like every Jew. This would be a lie.
But I like some of those, I have met here. I am shure, that I would like them the same, if there wouldn't be a book of Genesis.
And I like Jewish culture, specially the kitchen & the wine. :P O0
The point, why evil people with European background are more dangerous to the Jews is obvious. Scribarin has said it before. Muslims are not able to controll themselves, neither their thoughts nor their actions. They are like a predators. They are attacking instantly without reflection about the consequences.
You can read in the Israeli and European press daily about their stupid, cruel and violent crimes. Or remember in which way they have attacked in Hebron.
The Nazi is much more vulpine. He is planning, preparing and he is acting openly only if there is a great change to success. Otherwise he is acting in secrecy I.e. sneaking with a firebomb at night to the Synagoge or Jewish cemetary. :(
The Muslim is not like this and this makes him less dangerous. In addition to it Islam is only able to prosper in a non-muslim society, where the natural economic and social order is diseased and mutated through Socialism in any form.
Of course a twisted economic order advances Nazism too, but not in the same degree, like Islam.
My proof for it is that hard working and by it successfull people can be Nazis (i.e Ford, Krupp, Flick etc.)
In the Muslim ranks you will find perhaps Oil-Sheiks and Cleptocates, but rarly people who made a fortune by work.
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Everybody relax! If he thinks that JTF should not be United with us Christians (The religion that basically came from judaism) than let him complain all that he want's. The fact that he even want's Chaim to terminate all of the Christians on the forum, is insane.
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Ralph2, don't become a problem. I have seen similar things arise, and it usually results in banning.
Let me make my point here. There are always going to be some Christians who don't see eye to eye with Jews, and there will always be some Jews who don't see eye to eye with Christians. But, this forum symbolizes that all of us Jews and Christians are allies and we DO see eye to eye. We have a common enemy, it needs to be defeated, all objections aside, at the end of the day, that is the bottom line.
Cheers, ProJewChristian
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WHO CHANGED MY POST WITHOUT MY PERMISSION? IT SEEMS TO BE FINE WHEN SOMEONE MAKES A DIRECT POSITION BUT IF ONE SUPPLIES AN ANSWER, EVEN JUST THE REF WITHOUT THE ACTUAL COMMENTARY IT IS DELETED?
THIS IS WRONG PERIOD!!
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These same posts over and over again every other week they are becoming boring at least for me
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there have been many instances where people have written things that run against the JTF cause, and so it is right that the admins have the right to remove things from a post without asking permission, They do say <deleted>.. so it's not a surreptitious/clandestine act.
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there have been many instances where people have written things that run against the JTF cause, and so it is right that the admins have the right to remove things from a post without asking permission, They do say <deleted>.. so it's not a surreptitious/clandestine act.
It absolutely is, especially if it something that doesn't lay within the guidelines as to what you've written... There was absolutely nothing wrong with what I wrote. If someone makes a statement publically and one supplies a response, especially when on a Jewish forum, by a Jew, from the Tenach.... something is wrong...
PS: I happen to agree with Mord... O0
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I just finished reading through the five pages fo posts since I dropped off last night.
Thank you Ralph, I learned a lot, got a lot to think about, and I think some great discussion occurred. Before/after this post there is still a common binding truth.
Jews and Rightous Gentiles make great, complimentary allies. Together they can win in the fight against Nazisism and Islam. You think God might just have a reason and a plan in place. O0
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@Ralph you said your mom is a Jew, that makes you Jew like it or not and regardless of not believing or rejecting the Torah.
Also JTF is not pro-white as Shlomo had said, race and color do not matter, only the behavior. I think that you have racist views, and that your rational is flawed. We had many enemies through history, in every generation there are Amalekite gentiles who try to destroy us. All are completely evil but some are just more successful than others, I mean, Haman and Hitler wanted exactly the same thing only that Hitler was more able than Haman.
Since the rebirth of the Jewish state it has been Islam who become our greatest enemy. Islam has never accepted out independence and they will stop at nothing in trying to wipe us of the map. Thank God they were not as able as the Nazis but we have to make sure they stay that way...
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@Ralph you said your mom is a Jew, that makes you Jew like it or not and regardless of not believing or rejecting the Torah.
Also JTF is not pro-white as Shlomo had said, race and color do not matter, only the behavior. I think that you have racist views, and that your rational is flawed. We had many enemies through history, in every generation there are Amalekite gentiles who try to destroy us. All are completely evil but some are just more successful than others, I mean, Haman and Hitler wanted exactly the same thing only that Hitler was more able than Haman.
Since the rebirth of the Jewish state it has been Islam who become our greatest enemy. Islam has never accepted out independence and they will stop at nothing in trying to wipe us of the map. Thank G-d they were not as able as the Nazis but we have to make sure they stay that way...
islam cant destroy because hashem will not allow it theres nothing else to it.
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Marzutra, I was the one that deleted that last line of your original post. I guess I should have made that clear.
The fact is, since we have zero tolerance for missionizing here, we can't have people slipping in little asides saying to people of other religions who can or cannot be G-d or the Messiah. Discussions like that are perfectly valid for other forums but are not appropriate here.
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I just finished reading through the five pages fo posts since I dropped off last night.
Thank you Ralph, I learned a lot, got a lot to think about, and I think some great discussion occurred. Before/after this post there is still a common binding truth.
Jews and Rightous Gentiles make great, complimentary allies. Together they can win in the fight against Nazisism and Islam. You think G-d might just have a reason and a plan in place. O0
O0
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This comment has really disturbed me. I couldn't figure out why exactly, until I realized the only place I have every heard the phrase "The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews." I have never ever heard any Jew proclaim that "whites" were his enemy or even adversary. The only place I have heard this phrase used is on Nazi forums.
I believe you are a Nazi and an impersonator. You are trying to foment hate between Jews and Christians on this forum. That is my opinion.
Listen you worthless cockroach, I didn't start this thread. CF wanted to know who I am and I answered his questions. I don't give a damn what your opinion is. You should call me a nazi in my face. I doubt a coward like you would ever insult someone outside of a forum. I think since you've visited nazi forums and know their common phrases, you are the real nazi.
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Ralph you are over reacting. Simply counter back with that you are not a Nazi. Name calling is not nice.
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What you follow today was not always considered "orthodox"
It is silly to pretend otherwise. When you just openly state that your way is the true interpretation and the ones in the past were wrong or lying/distorting, that can be honest and logical. Don't try to tell me that all of medieval Christian Europe would have stated or admitted that their own way was "not biblical" or not authentic. They would have said their way was right. Their priest said so and so did those who had whatever limited exposure to their scripture that they had. (and the printing press increased exposure to the masses, but it didn't cause adoption of the modern interpretation you follow!) I think it's a stretch and quite silly to pretend otherwise. Or to pretend that all the priests of those days had never seen their own nt...
A comparison to a conflict between religious Jew and a secular Jew who doesn't know Torah is not a valid comparison. Christian Europe was religious Christian, and they thought their way was right, whether it was or it wasn't. I don't know how you can assume if CF went in a time machine and showed a different interpretation, they would all just say, 'of course CF but I'm evil and a pretender what do you expect'.... They were led to believe a different interpretation for century upon century, one which enabled the antisemitism that led to the shoah. You CF simply believe that was a wrong interpretation and yours is the biblically accurate one while theirs isn't/wasn't. For what it's worth, I think if you start claiming more than that you cease making sense...
First off--it looks like you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. You don't like it when I speak about Judaism, you don't like it when I speak about my own faith, and you don't like it when I criticize any figure Chaim himself does. Maybe that is not the case, but I am certain that considering our history of debating, it might appear that way to an outsider. Please note that Lisa, who has been carefully monitoring this thread for religiously inappropriate speech and who has called me out in the past when I overreached, had no problem with what I said.
When did I ever complain about what you are saying? I never said anything about your post(s) in this thread being inappopriate. What is this all about?
I simply reacted to your arguments with logic. I don't have a problem with being logical. I do have a problem with delusion.
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What you follow today was not always considered "orthodox"
It is silly to pretend otherwise. When you just openly state that your way is the true interpretation and the ones in the past were wrong or lying/distorting, that can be honest and logical. Don't try to tell me that all of medieval Christian Europe would have stated or admitted that their own way was "not biblical" or not authentic. They would have said their way was right. Their priest said so and so did those who had whatever limited exposure to their scripture that they had. (and the printing press increased exposure to the masses, but it didn't cause adoption of the modern interpretation you follow!) I think it's a stretch and quite silly to pretend otherwise. Or to pretend that all the priests of those days had never seen their own nt...
A comparison to a conflict between religious Jew and a secular Jew who doesn't know Torah is not a valid comparison. Christian Europe was religious Christian, and they thought their way was right, whether it was or it wasn't. I don't know how you can assume if CF went in a time machine and showed a different interpretation, they would all just say, 'of course CF but I'm evil and a pretender what do you expect'.... They were led to believe a different interpretation for century upon century, one which enabled the antisemitism that led to the shoah. You CF simply believe that was a wrong interpretation and yours is the biblically accurate one while theirs isn't/wasn't. For what it's worth, I think if you start claiming more than that you cease making sense...
Now--as to the overall thrust of your argument, it appears that you are saying that the N.T. preaches anti-Semitism.
I never once said this. Why do you constantly put words in my mouth? You do this to others as well. I never even came CLOSE to saying this. I am getting very tired of you responding to things I never said.
You are way too defensive. Let me be clear. It is delusional to think that the Christian Europe of days gone by was KNOWINGLY taking a NON-BIBLICAL approach to their religion, and would they have been presented with CF modern biblical interpretation, they would have said "well of course, but I'm sick and evil and just pretending." They THOUGHT their way was correct/biblical. You can state that they were incorrect and had a nonbiblical interpretation, and like I said, I buy that logic, but they sincerely believed whatever was their own interpretation (objectively "incorrect" or not - which you and others in your church say it is). It is a complete stretch and fantasy to suggest that all those priests and all those communities were knowingly distorting their own religion but knew the other (modern) interpretation was the correct one and just chose the incorrect one anyway. They thought theirs was correct-biblical! Whether it was or wasn't, they thought so. It's up to the christian theologians and guys like yourself to determine what the correct interpretation of Christianity is/was. Not me. But don't tell me that those people didn't sincerely believe that what they were believing and doing was a 'biblical' correct approach. The fact that they did doesn't mean they weren't wrong. So your conclusion about what is 'the thrust of my argument' is completely off.
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Let me be clear. It is delusional to think that the Christian Europe of days gone by was KNOWINGLY taking a NON-BIBLICAL approach to their religion, and would they have been presented with CF modern biblical interpretation, they would have said "well of course, but I'm sick and evil and just pretending."
I already gave you the explanation, which you conveniently didn't notice, but for the record, the reason that this is true is because at that era and place the Bible was not considered the ultimate source of authority for Christianity, Church Tradition and decree was.
They THOUGHT their way was correct/biblical.
Correction, they thought it was correct according to church tradition.
You can state that they were incorrect and had a nonbiblical interpretation, and like I said, I buy that logic, but they sincerely believed whatever was their own interpretation (objectively "incorrect" or not - which you and others in your church say it is).
So? Mormons today believe that all of us, if we live as good Mormons, will all become a gd after we die, and sincerely believe it.
It is a complete stretch and fantasy to suggest that all those priests and all those communities were knowingly distorting their own religion but knew the other (modern) interpretation was the correct one and just chose the incorrect one anyway.
No more or less than Muslims who believe that their religion is true. Do Muslims know that their religion is wrong and persist in believing it anyway? That's up for debate.
They thought theirs was correct-biblical!
For the jillionth time, they didn't use the Bible, by itself, as their guiding light--they went primarily on pontifical rulings (which were deemed incontrovertible and the direct words of G-d himself) and the decisions the church had made in the past. The Bible, during that era, was taken to be a second-tier source of knowledge and authority in Christianity. You don't know Christian history better than I do, and you're not going to prove otherwise.
Whether it was or wasn't, they thought so.
They used a completely different interpretive system than modern Christians. That's why it was fair for me to make the analogy of a Torah debate between you and a secular Jew. It would not be a fair debate--it would be apples and oranges. You each would have totally different sources of authorities in your lives.
It's up to the christian theologians and guys like yourself to determine what the correct interpretation of Christianity is/was. Not me.
Obviously.
But don't tell me that those people didn't sincerely believe that what they were believing and doing was a 'biblical' correct approach. The fact that they did doesn't mean they weren't wrong. So your conclusion about what is 'the thrust of my argument' is completely off.
How difficult is it for you to understand this concept? Christendom in that era did not view the Bible as the primary source with which to make religious decisions. The sole, guiding authority was Pontifical authority and bull (decree)--meaning that what the pope said, went. The Pope was considered to be a living oracle of G-d, and therefore his declarations carried direct divine weight. After that, authority rested on church tradition and historical precedent--i.e. what past Popes had decided, or what early church fathers wrote and believed. Some of these early church fathers were extremely antisemitic (i.e. John Chrysostom), and they were held in a very high degree of esteem--at least as high as, if not higher, than the actual authors of the N.T. themselves. Their decisions, teachings, and practices were seen as divinely sanctioned. The best analogy that can be made for this for you, within Judaism, would be the belief that the great rabbinic scholars of history are divinely anointed with the authority to make halachic decisions. Medieval Christianity believed similarly of church fathers. (Note--I am not in the least, even remotely, comparing Jew-hating beasts with the great Torahic/Talmudic scholars of Judaism. I simply was making an analogy in order to illustrate the basis of their authority-system.) The Bible was viewed as the word of G-d, for sure, but it had to be interpreted and implemented by the Church hierarchy for true meaning and substance.
So that is why I can accurately claim what I do. The "Christians" of that era would not have thought of themselves as "biblical Christians"--such a concept did not exist on a wide scale until the Reformation, and really, even after that, not until various small Christian communities that wanted nothing to do with the Old World (such as the Puritans, Quakers, Anabaptists, etc.), sprang up. They would have viewed themselves as "Church Christians" or "Holy Roman Christians", because their lives were based upon the church itself, not a sacred text. If I were having a debate with one today, their first quarrel with me would not be interpretation of Scripture, but why I don't view church dictates as the direct word of G-d.
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Listen you worthless cockroach, I didn't start this thread. CF wanted to know who I am and I answered his questions. I don't give a damn what your opinion is. You should call me a nazi in my face. I doubt a coward like you would ever insult someone outside of a forum. I think since you've visited nazi forums and know their common phrases, you are the real nazi.
Do we need any more proof this guy is a troll?
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This comment has really disturbed me. I couldn't figure out why exactly, until I realized the only place I have every heard the phrase "The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews." I have never ever heard any Jew proclaim that "whites" were his enemy or even adversary. The only place I have heard this phrase used is on Nazi forums.
I believe you are a Nazi and an impersonator. You are trying to foment hate between Jews and Christians on this forum. That is my opinion.
Listen you worthless cockroach, I didn't start this thread. CF wanted to know who I am and I answered his questions. I don't give a damn what your opinion is. You should call me a nazi in my face. I doubt a coward like you would ever insult someone outside of a forum. I think since you've visited nazi forums and know their common phrases, you are the real nazi.
Ralph? name calling is not needed here, if you guys got a debate or personal issues take it to pm and settle it out
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This comment has really disturbed me. I couldn't figure out why exactly, until I realized the only place I have every heard the phrase "The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews." I have never ever heard any Jew proclaim that "whites" were his enemy or even adversary. The only place I have heard this phrase used is on Nazi forums.
I believe you are a Nazi and an impersonator. You are trying to foment hate between Jews and Christians on this forum. That is my opinion.
Listen you worthless cockroach, I didn't start this thread. CF wanted to know who I am and I answered his questions. I don't give a damn what your opinion is. You should call me a nazi in my face. I doubt a coward like you would ever insult someone outside of a forum. I think since you've visited nazi forums and know their common phrases, you are the real nazi.
TAKE IT EASY!!
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But CF, not all Christians were Catholic. Not all Christians followed the pope. And not only catholics committed pogroms etc...
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Ralph, JTF works with all good people, whether they're Jews or non-Jews. That's how Chaim wants it. So if you disagree, then there's always the splinter forum to go to. Otherwise, you need to keep your language civil.
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C.F. I think what Kahane Was Right BT is trying to say is that whether or not the European Christians of the Middle Ages read the N.T. for themselves or whether they relied on their priests for knowledge, the fact remains that they believed themselves to be Christians. And no doubt with the help of their priests, they justified themselves in the name of their religion.
Now you can say that these were illiterate peasants that were manipulated by the priests, which was probably the case with many of them. But it doesn't take away from the fact that their interpretation of their religion was used to justify their Jew hatred.
Something else you all need to remember is that Christian Zionism and Christian philo-Semitism are relatively new phenomena. So I don't think you should take it personally when some of the Ashkenazic Jews here (of European ancestry) express skepticism about Christian philo-Semitism.
Otherwise, can we all please stop fighting here?
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But CF, not all Christians were Catholic. Not all Christians followed the pope. And not only catholics committed pogroms etc...
No. It was only the Catholics. I can bring Nik back to confirm. ;)
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Do we need any more proof this guy is a troll?
You started this thread to try to make trouble for me. It's obvious you're a loser and you can't debate. You're obsessed with having people banned and I'm sue the moderators couldn't care less about your opinions. Christians have more Jewish blood on their hands than any other group. Bottom line. The Gospels make it clear that those who don't accept Christ will go to hell. This is what has motivated these animals to persecute, murder and rape Jews. Christians that don't believe this are not real Christians anymore than Muslims who don't want to exterminate infidels are real Muslims. If this is JTF then I think JTF should recruit Muslims who claim they support Israel because there are Muslims who say they do. From now on I will ignore you.
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This comment has really disturbed me. I couldn't figure out why exactly, until I realized the only place I have every heard the phrase "The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews." I have never ever heard any Jew proclaim that "whites" were his enemy or even adversary. The only place I have heard this phrase used is on Nazi forums.
I believe you are a Nazi and an impersonator. You are trying to foment hate between Jews and Christians on this forum. That is my opinion.
Listen you worthless cockroach, I didn't start this thread. CF wanted to know who I am and I answered his questions. I don't give a damn what your opinion is. You should call me a nazi in my face. I doubt a coward like you would ever insult someone outside of a forum. I think since you've visited nazi forums and know their common phrases, you are the real nazi.
Well I'm not alone here. Admin Shlomo said the following earlier:
"what is all this "White" crap? Last time I checked, this wasn't the KKK forum."
I never ever hear Jews say they hate whites. Ashkenazi Jews are "white."
I called you a Nazi because this is exactly how they speak...everything is about the "white" race and how Jews are attacking the "white" race.
If your a Jew, start acting like one and stop acting like a Nazi.
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Do we need any more proof this guy is a troll?
You started this thread to try to make trouble for me. It's obvious you're a loser and you can't debate. You're obsessed with having people banned and I'm sue the moderators couldn't care less about your opinions. Christians have more Jewish blood on their hands than any other group. Bottom line. The Gospels make it clear that those who don't accept Christ will go to hell. This is what has motivated these animals to persecute, murder and rape Jews. Christians that don't believe this are not real Christians anymore than Muslims who don't want to exterminate infidels are real Muslims. If this is JTF then I think JTF should recruit Muslims who claim they support Israel because there are Muslims who say they do. From now on I will ignore you.
This is not the Christianity I know and you are not characteristic of the Jews that I know. Sorry you are so unhappy and disapointed with your situation and life. As CF would say, "Peace be with you".
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Do we need any more proof this guy is a troll?
You started this thread to try to make trouble for me. It's obvious you're a loser and you can't debate. You're obsessed with having people banned and I'm sue the moderators couldn't care less about your opinions. Christians have more Jewish blood on their hands than any other group. Bottom line. The Gospels make it clear that those who don't accept Christ will go to hell. This is what has motivated these animals to persecute, murder and rape Jews. Christians that don't believe this are not real Christians anymore than Muslims who don't want to exterminate infidels are real Muslims. If this is JTF then I think JTF should recruit Muslims who claim they support Israel because there are Muslims who say they do. From now on I will ignore you.
American Christians have never done the things you are talking about. :-\
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I said I'm an agnostic atheist and never said I was Jewish religiously. It doesn't matter what my mother is, I don't believe in Judaism.
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In the New Testament, Jesus Christ is quoted as saying that he had come to bring the sword, to "set father against son and mother against daughter" (Luke 12:53) and called on his followers to "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me" (Luke 19:27).
These words have, in the history of Christianity, been enacted in bloody reality many times - starting when an important political rebellion against the Roman Catholic Church took on a religious slant - leading to the split in European Christendom between Catholic and Protestant. This split sparked off a series of religious wars which were ultimately to be responsible for the death of nearly a third of all Europeans. If they do this to each other, who knows what they're willing to do to others. If they were Muslims they would've committed a genocide against each other. When this liberal culture wears off of them, and it eventually will, they will revert to their savage ways once more.
You fool.
Please Ralph, don't start with exegesis. You will embarrass yourself deeply. ::)
I.e. is the second example (Luke 19:27) part of a parable. Not Jesus is speaking here, but the "highborn (noble) man".
You have to start reading in Luke 19:11
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Stop attacking the Christian members. It's so petty and divisive. It's also against the forum rules.
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Ralph, if you think Christians are so bad, then you would really be better off ranting at the splinter forum. We work with all good people here.