JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Baltimore on September 14, 2008, 08:48:18 PM
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http://www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUSN0842492020080914
As of 8:45PM tonight it appears that the government is not going to bail out Lehman Brothers. This is the right thing to do. Bailing out private institutions and making them government owned is a form of socialism.
If there is no bail out then we are in for some rough economic times on many levels. There could be mass panic in the morning or the next few days and there could be bank runs soon after.
Lehman Brothers has its hands in just about every financial market in the world. It will be like the first in a series of dominoes falling down.
One positive that should eventually come out of this is a massive drop in housing prices. Once Lehman fails and then some large banks fail they will be forced to sell assets and the market will be flooded with houses.
Monday should be interesting...
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(sorry for the crosspost)
Your comments are right on
it would have been the beginning of
a financial apocalypse.....
as would have been the failure of Bear Stearns ....
I have some Lehman Bros garbage in a money market ....
I was very worried about potential financial catastrophe
Also I wish Greenspan wouldnt keep opening his mouth ...
he has caused enough trouble ...
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Housing prices, even today, are as inflated as oil is. The housing market is 100% driven by robber-baron speculators. Since Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are amongst the biggest campaign contributors to politicians, of both parties, on the planet, it was only natural for these whores to bail out these corporate beasts just like they did the airlines after 9/11. Obviously it would be a good thing for big players in the housing market--or any multinational corporation for that matter--to go belly-up, with no bailout. These pigs have raped the American consumer for far too long. No average-sized house should cost, today, more than 50-100k. Since virtually all houses are built by gutter-wage wetbacks (instead of unionized construction workers), housing prices, adjusted for inflation, should be infinitely cheaper today than yesterday, which isn't the case. *desperately misses rolleyes emoticon*
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Housing prices, even today, are as inflated as oil is. The housing market is 100% driven by robber-baron speculators. Since Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are amongst the biggest campaign contributors to politicians, of both parties, on the planet, it was only natural for these whores to bail out these corporate beasts just like they did the airlines after 9/11. Obviously it would be a good thing for big players in the housing market--or any multinational corporation for that matter--to go belly-up, with no bailout. These pigs have raped the American consumer for far too long. No average-sized house should cost, today, more than 50-100k. Since virtually all houses are built by gutter-wage wetbacks (instead of unionized construction workers), housing prices, adjusted for inflation, should be infinitely cheaper today than yesterday, which isn't the case. *desperately misses rolleyes emoticon*
I agree
C.F. here is the roll eyes ::)
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if their is no bailout, and these big corporations fail, then what do you think will happen to the average joe and the economy as a whole? We are in a hugg mess, I dont see the situation looking too good for anybody.
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Hopefully the Feds know something we dont ...
and it won't be as bad as some have predicted
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The worst case scenario is a complete collapse of the world financial system as we know it. This would be worse than the great depression. The chances of that happening are slim but there is a chance.
If Lehman fails it will take some other financial institutions with it. With the precedent set that no other corporations will be bailed out we could see a panic by investors and money would be taken out of banks and other corporations. This would lead to the failure of many banks (some large) including Washington Mutual. General Motors may also fail under this scenario.
With major banks and corporations suddenly disappearing many will lose middle class jobs. More middle class without jobs will sour the overall economy. Housing prices will go down with the extra houses on the market but banks will not give out loans as much as they once did. Less people qualifying for loans means less houses sold.
With banks failing those with accounts over $100k in the failed banks will lose everything they have over $100k. That is not good. We are talking about middle class joes losing tens to 100's of thousands of dollars. This will produce runs on banks. That is never a good thing.
The Federal Reserve will probably lower interest rates even more to stimulate spending and to provide a psychological diversion. That will not help.
Multinational corporations will be hurt, but many people are invested in these companies so they will be hurt also. Pension and Mutual funds could fail.
There is no such thing as a free lunch and this is just the price to pay for what we thought was a free lunch. Better to get it over with now. The longer we wait the worse it will be.
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These horrible companies won't give many people a chance as far as hiring. Maybe they have affirmative action programs in hiring as well as HANDING OUT MORTGAGES. They pay their top executives millions upon millions while they hire relatives and "contacts," making it impossible for many qualified applicants to get jobs there. I hate to sound like a socialist but most of these Wall street firms can go to the devil.
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if their is no bailout, and these big corporations fail, then what do you think will happen to the average joe and the economy as a whole? We are in a hugg mess, I dont see the situation looking too good for anybody.
I knew this would happen. Trying to stop this avalanche is next to impossible. And when trading starts tomorrow... many are going to start panicking. We will be experience something that hasn't been experienced since 1929.
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Lehman Brothers just declared Chapter 11.
This is really bad but for all JTFers this could be an opportunity. The USA still has a 3% growth rate so we're not all going to a major depression...yet. This could be a possible excellent time to buy stocks. When everyone is running scared is where one can go in and buy a bunch and hold on to it. You could lose money but WaMu could be a great buy as could many other stronger comapnies that will be hurt by this recent news.
This could be a chance to make some money to give to JTF!
It's still a major risk right now.
I just can't believe Greenspan. He oversaw the deregulation of firewalls between insurance, investment companies and banks.
We owe this whole mess to the Gramm-Leach-Biley law signed by Bill Clinton in 1999 that defanged the Glass-Stegal act in 1933.
Just wait, although we have a strong country, the next victims of this whole mess will be the insurance companies.
That will be a disaster.
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Guys, you're all missing the big picture, with the exception perhaps of Americanhero. A total collapse of our MNCs, even if it produces a catastrophe on par with 1929, would almost be the best thing to happen to America. Unfortunately, the fat, lazy, liberal early-retiree cows of America need the sky to fall before their complacency about the government and this crony "capitalist" economy comes crashing down. Nothing else besides going homeless and starving will shake them, and few things will take (white) people back to conservatism like experiencing once again what it is like to actually have to strive for and eke out a living. Yes, it will suck for a whole lot of righteous and moral people, but there really isn't any other choice at this point. If all the gigantic financial houses crumble, when the pieces are finally picked up, at least consumers will have some choices besides loansharks. As far as I am concerned the predators who raped hardworking Americans with these obscene ARMs can all go to Gehenom anyway.
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CF makes some great points.
NWJTF- DO not touch WaMu!!!! It will not exist soon enough. It is toxic!
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I just notice that like with everythign else..when something gets too high, it will drop and if somethign gets too low it will rise. When financial institutions cheat and take advantage...it will result in trouble in the future.
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Lehman Brothers just declared Chapter 11.
This is really bad but for all JTFers this could be an opportunity. The USA still has a 3% growth rate so we're not all going to a major depression...yet. This could be a possible excellent time to buy stocks. When everyone is running scared is where one can go in and buy a bunch and hold on to it. You could lose money but WaMu could be a great buy as could many other stronger comapnies that will be hurt by this recent news.
This could be a chance to make some money to give to JTF!
It's still a major risk right now.
I just can't believe Greenspan. He oversaw the deregulation of firewalls between insurance, investment companies and banks.
We owe this whole mess to the Gramm-Leach-Biley law signed by Bill Clinton in 1999 that defanged the Glass-Stegal act in 1933.
Just wait, although we have a strong country, the next victims of this whole mess will be the insurance companies.
That will be a disaster.
Disagree. If I had money, I would wait a year before doing anything. At least this and next year looks like their will be very hard financial times.
And what CF said, in my opinion is crazy. Why would anyone want their to be a collapse of the economy? Also it would probably move people to socialism and away from the "big greedy corporations" and the blame will be the corporations, and then the Jews.
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Yes, but your money will be without any value, because America's money is not bound to gold. The value of the Dollar is based on the trust of the citizen in the American national economic. If this trust is gone you will have a great inflation. Also the gouvernment will be tried to save the economic with the unnatural plans of John Maynard Keynes. This will increase the ammount of dollar-notes on the market. The consequence is also inflation.
Perhaps it will be the best to spent your wealth by buying merchandise for your stock. So you have stable wealth in order to sell it during the inflation period. You can demand now in the economic process the real wealth according to the inflation rate. So at least your family will have always food and will not suffer too much.
My oppinion towards the persecution of Jews issue, you are probably right. But if you are thinking this is only accurate for Jews you are mistaken.
The envy of lazy and sloppy people is going abouve religious and ethnic borders. Asians and white protestants will suffer as well under this wicked hand of bolschewist envy lazybones :(
P.S.: My stock is filled very well.
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And what CF said, in my opinion is crazy. Why would anyone want their to be a collapse of the economy? Also it would probably move people to socialism and away from the "big greedy corporations" and the blame will be the corporations, and then the Jews.
And it's not socialism for Big Brother to save the behinds of all of these bloated corporate corpses?
Newsflash--the Buchanans and Ron Pauls of the world are already blaming the current state of the economy on the Jews.
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It might be socialism, but who said that some forms of socialism are 100% wrong? And the the free-market system is 100% correct. Only time will tell, perhaps.
Yea but they are in the minority, and they have what to eat for now. What will happen to people when they dont have enough to eat?
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I believe Barclays asked to buy Lehman's (much like the Northern Rock deal in the UK) but Paulson said no.
Next up: Washington Mutual
ohhhhhh brother
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if their is no bailout, and these big corporations fail, then what do you think will happen to the average joe and the economy as a whole? We are in a hugg mess, I dont see the situation looking too good for anybody.
America will soon find out what Americans did in "The Great Depression" we will have to go back to the basics. PLANT YOUR GARDENS!
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Guys, you're all missing the big picture, with the exception perhaps of Americanhero. A total collapse of our MNCs, even if it produces a catastrophe on par with 1929, would almost be the best thing to happen to America. Unfortunately, the fat, lazy, liberal early-retiree cows of America need the sky to fall before their complacency about the government and this crony "capitalist" economy comes crashing down. Nothing else besides going homeless and starving will shake them, and few things will take (white) people back to conservatism like experiencing once again what it is like to actually have to strive for and eke out a living. Yes, it will suck for a whole lot of righteous and moral people, but there really isn't any other choice at this point. If all the gigantic financial houses crumble, when the pieces are finally picked up, at least consumers will have some choices besides loansharks. As far as I am concerned the predators who raped hardworking Americans with these obscene ARMs can all go to Gehenom anyway.
I dissagree (Partially). Look what happened because of the Great Depression. (FDR and the new deal, and Adolph Hitler and the 3rd Reich).
Some of the WORST political victories have happened during economic turmoil.
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It might be socialism, but who said that some forms of socialism are 100% wrong? And the the free-market system is 100% correct. Only time will tell, perhaps.
Yea but they are in the minority, and they have what to eat for now. What will happen to people when they dont have enough to eat?
With the obesity problem this country has people can simply live off their fat.
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America will soon find out what Americans did in "The Great Depression" we will have to go back to the basics. PLANT YOUR GARDENS!
Stock up on Canned Goods!!!! :)
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With the obesity problem this country has people can simply live off their fat.
HA HA HA :laugh:
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Yes, but your money will be without any value, because America's money is not bound to gold
this is true it connected to walk street >:(
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With the obesity problem this country has people can simply live off their fat.
Maybe if the raise the prices of fast food. Otherwise, people's financial worries will only lead them to gorge on food.
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It might be socialism, but who said that some forms of socialism are 100% wrong? And the the free-market system is 100% correct. Only time will tell, perhaps.
Yea but they are in the minority, and they have what to eat for now. What will happen to people when they dont have enough to eat?
Tzvi, I disagree. Socialism is the death of religious freedom. Socialism is collectivism. Socialism is pure hostility to God. They want to create the paradise on earth in a fleshly way. Any attempt to do this leads to the suffering of religious and hard working people.
The smaller the gouvernment, the greater is our freedom.
I hate Socialists of any kind. They are poison for all religious people, because they know no God. This is part of their ideology.
The gouvernment is imo not our friend, but a neccessary evil.
Look I bring you a good argument:
If you can organize your Synagoge community like you and your Rabbis want, without any interventions of the gouvernment you are free.
If the gouvernment intervenes you will see it as oppression.
Every religious and personal freedom is bound to the freedom of the economy. You will ever find a Jew that will donate to your Yeshiva, but if they take the money away from the people you have to beg the gouvernment.
You are bound to them and you have to do whatever they want or you are without Yeshiva.
Basically this leads to the State church/synagoge and this will destroy Judaism, like it destroys the religious communities all over Europe.
If the gouvernment promotes gay marriages you have to agree or to compromise
If the gouvernment promotes women as Rabbis, you have to agree or to compromise
If the gouvernment promotes even liberal Judaism, you have to agree or to compromise
:'(
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Maybe if the raise the prices of fast food. Otherwise, people's financial worries will only lead them to gorge on food.
Yea they should heavily tax fast food, just like they tax cigaretts.
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By the way. One thing that has to be looked at is, How soon this will effect things such as unemployment and GDP growth.
If it has an immediate effect... it means that Obama may be elected out of the fact that voters believe that everything else has failed so.... .why not?
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Pheasant- i wasn't talking about total socialism, but about how maybe sometimes the gov. can intervene in order to stop a big catastrophe. Becuase if these big financial institutions fail, then its not only them who suffer, it all of us as an economy together.
And at the same time, total free-market, can also be bad becuase eventually we might have no competition, because of corporate takeovers (more $, more takeover's), and it would really mean that their would be some very rich people with the rest poor, serving them.
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Yes, but your money will be without any value, because America's money is not bound to gold. The value of the Dollar is based on the trust of the citizen in the American national economic. If this trust is gone you will have a great inflation. Also the gouvernment will be tried to save the economic with the unnatural plans of John Maynard Keynes. This will increase the ammount of dollar-notes on the market. The consequence is also inflation.
Perhaps it will be the best to spent your wealth by buying merchandise for your stock. So you have stable wealth in order to sell it during the inflation period. You can demand now in the economic process the real wealth according to the inflation rate. So at least your family will have always food and will not suffer too much.
My oppinion towards the persecution of Jews issue, you are probably right. But if you are thinking this is only accurate for Jews you are mistaken.
The envy of lazy and sloppy people is going abouve religious and ethnic borders. Asians and white protestants will suffer as well under this wicked hand of bolschewist envy lazybones :(
P.S.: My stock is filled very well.
You guys need to stop clinging to the Gold standard idea. There is a reason why in 1932 and 33, during the height of the depression, nearly every country had to abandon the gold standard.
If we back $ with Gold, the inflexibility of the world currencies will mean a 20 year depression. don't believe me... look at how awful depressions used to be when we were backed to gold. (Pre 1933) vs. Post 1933.
Gold backing is populist nonsense by the likes of Ron Paul and other individuals who peddle pseudo economics. IT sounds good, but when it is in place, its absolutely disastrous.
(Take it from a right-wing Finance Professor) :)
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Pheasant- i wasn't talking about total socialism, but about how maybe sometimes the gov. can intervene in order to stop a big catastrophe. Becuase if these big financial institutions fail, then its not only them who suffer, it all of us as an economy together.
And at the same time, total free-market, can also be bad becuase eventually we might have no competition, because of corporate takeovers (more $, more takeover's), and it would really mean that their would be some very rich people with the rest poor, serving them.
I think it is highly unfair that the tax payers have to pay for the big companies in bad times and in the good times the owners of this companies make a big fortune.
I also agree with you that the gouvernment has to make clear rules and enforce them for the private economy, because in this case would exactly happen what you mentiones.
Imo the ideal case is, if all people can make their own decisions freely without any pressure of other more wealthy people.
The gouvernment has to ensure this elemental point of a real free market society.
If people are going after successfull miniorities in economical crises the military and the police is responsible to end this wicked ape-like behaviour instantly.
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You guys need to stop clinging to the Gold standard idea. There is a reason why in 1932 and 33, during the height of the depression, nearly every country had to abandon the gold standard.
If we back $ with Gold, the inflexibility of the world currencies will mean a 20 year depression. don't believe me... look at how awful depressions used to be when we were backed to gold. (Pre 1933) vs. Post 1933.
Gold backing is populist nonsense by the likes of Ron Paul and other individuals who peddle pseudo economics. IT sounds good, but when it is in place, its absolutely disastrous.
(Take it from a right-wing Finance Professor) :)
I think there is nothing wrong with the inflexibility of the currency. The only important thing is imo that the gouvernment has to stockpile the exact ammount of gold that is equivalent to the ammount of money.
If the gouvernment does this there is also no problem with the existent ammount of gold in the world, because the more gold the gouvernment is buying the higher will be the price for it. :)
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I think it is highly unfair that the tax payers have to pay for the big companies in bad times and in the good times the owners of this companies make a big fortune.
I also agree with you that the gouvernment has to make clear rules and enforce them for the private economy, because in this case would exactly happen what you mentiones.
Imo the ideal case is, if all people can make their own decisions freely without any pressure of other more wealthy people.
The gouvernment has to ensure this elemental point of a real free market society.
If people are going after successfull miniorities in economical crises the military and the police is responsible to end this wicked ape-like behaviour instantly.
Either way the top ceo's make their $. Their are almost no reprecussions to them. They are concidered salary- employess and they make their millions- something which should definitly change.
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I think there is nothing wrong with the inflexibility of the currency. The only important thing is imo that the gouvernment has to stockpile the exact ammount of gold that is equivalent to the ammount of money.
If the gouvernment does this there is also no problem with the existent ammount of gold in the world, because the more gold the gouvernment is buying the higher will be the price for it. :)
Thats exactly the problem. I dont think you realize how the gold standard worked, and if you did, you would never support it, and you would realize why recessions/depressions were so much worse before 1933.
Countries that were not on the gold standard in 1929--or that quickly abandoned the gold standard--by and large escaped the Great Depression.
Countries that abandoned the gold standard in 1930 and 1931 suffered from the Great Depression, but escaped its worst ravages.
Countries that held to the gold standard through 1933 (like the United States) or 1936 (like France) suffered the worst from the Great Depression
Commitment to the gold standard prevented Federal Reserve action to expand the money supply in 1930 and 1931--and forced President Hoover into destructive attempts at budget-balancing in order to avoid a gold standard-generated run on the dollar. This really made the bank panics in the US so horrible.
I could go into much more detail if you wanted.
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Either way the top ceo's make their $. Their are almost no reprecussions to them. They are concidered salary- employess and they make their millions- something which should definitly change.
Yes you are right. In my oppinion everybody is responsible for his decisions. Of course in an economical way too. If somebody doesn't want to take the outcome of his decisions, he should have to stay out of business.
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Thats exactly the problem. I dont think you realize how the gold standard worked, and if you did, you would never support it, and you would realize why recessions/depressions were so much worse before 1933.
Countries that were not on the gold standard in 1929--or that quickly abandoned the gold standard--by and large escaped the Great Depression.
Countries that abandoned the gold standard in 1930 and 1931 suffered from the Great Depression, but escaped its worst ravages.
Countries that held to the gold standard through 1933 (like the United States) or 1936 (like France) suffered the worst from the Great Depression
Commitment to the gold standard prevented Federal Reserve action to expand the money supply in 1930 and 1931--and forced President Hoover into destructive attempts at budget-balancing in order to avoid a gold standard-generated run on the dollar. This really made the bank panics in the US so horrible.
I could go into much more detail if you wanted.
I know all of this, but at least your money will not be worthless. You decide for yourself if you suffer in a crises. If you always were provident you don't suffer in the worst case. If you spent your money with full hands and enjoyed all kind of belony pleasures you will be bit by the dogs. This is the way life is.
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Yes you are right. In my oppinion everybody is responsible for his decisions. Of course in an economical way too. If somebody doesn't want to take the outcome of his decisions, he should have to stay out of business.
BTW... I noticed you have Friedman on your signature. He's actually kinda the father of modern monetary stabilization theory.
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I know all of this, but at least your money will not be worthless. You decide for yourself if you suffer in a crises. If you always were provident you don't suffer in the worst case. If you spent your money with full hands and enjoyed all kind of belony pleasures you will be bit by the dogs. This is the way life is.
The money will not be worthless... unless you have a central bank that is purposely trying to devaluate their currency... ie the Weimar republic and the rediculous hyperinflation (1 dollar = 5 trillion R.M.)
. BTW.. pegging money to anything is horribly dangerous. IT always causes financial disasters. I could give you example after example. But this is a seperate discussion.
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BTW... I noticed you have Friedman on your signature. He's actually kinda the father of modern monetary stabilization theory.
Friedman says in the quoted book, that gold standart is one possibility for a righteous currency. I admit, that he said that your solution is possible too.
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Friedman says in the quoted book, that gold standart is one possibility for a righteous currency. I admit, that he said that your solution is possible too.
I would love to take credit, but Its HIS SOLUTION, not mine. Everything that modern free-market countries do regarding monetary policy do is based upon HIS ideas.
BTW, Milton... just as Alan Greenspan toyed with the idea of Keynsian Economics... and even the gold standard... but they quickly abandon it when they noticed that it produces horrible resorts.
Again... its like Communism. It sounds good... but it ALWAYS produces horrible results in real-life.
Brian
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I would love to take credit, but Its HIS SOLUTION, not mine. Everything that modern free-market countries do regarding monetary policy do is based upon HIS ideas.
BTW, Milton... just as Alan Greenspan toyed with the idea of Keynsian Economics... and even the gold standard... but they quickly abandon it when they noticed that it produces horrible resorts.
Again... its like Communism. It sounds good... but it ALWAYS produces horrible results in real-life.
Brian
I have only this book now. I will buy some other works of him. Perhaps are there really other aspects I don't know in depth.
But this one is really interesting. :)
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I think there is no way to back currency by the gold standard, other than to actually mint gold coins. Otherwise, one can never be sure at what point the government decides to abandon the standard. And using gold coins is almost like reverting back into barter economy.
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CF makes some great points.
NWJTF- DO not touch WaMu!!!! It will not exist soon enough. It is toxic!
Too late!!! :fright:
I only put $100 in though...
I also like Krispy Kreme Doughnuts...I think they will be bought by a fast food company any day now and they are so cheap right now!
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The money will not be worthless... unless you have a central bank that is purposely trying to devaluate their currency... ie the Weimar republic and the rediculous hyperinflation (1 dollar = 5 trillion R.M.)
. BTW.. pegging money to anything is horribly dangerous. IT always causes financial disasters. I could give you example after example. But this is a seperate discussion.
What else have countries' backed up their currencies with?
This is interesting to learn becasue so many people tout the gold standard as the savoir of the economy.
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The sad fact here is that as companies like Lehman brothers fail they are taking the money of thousands of small investors with then because of mismanagement. Peoples life savings, retirement and money for day to day living expenses is going up in smoke because of other peoples greed. Companies like this knew they were taking on questionable investments but did it despite the fact that they knew they were buying problems in the long run. People were talking about market corrections today like it was no big deal. Tell it to the elderly who are on fixed incomes that may be eating dog food because of the evil actions of some of the brokerage houses and poor government regulation.
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The sad fact here is that as companies like Lehman brothers fail they are taking the money of thousands of small investors with then because of mismanagement. Peoples life savings, retirement and money for day to day living expenses is going up in smoke because of other peoples greed. Companies like this knew they were taking on questionable investments but did it despite the fact that they knew they were buying problems in the long run. People were talking about market corrections today like it was no big deal. Tell it to the elderly who are on fixed incomes that may be eating dog food because of the evil actions of some of the brokerage houses and poor government regulation.
Well said. Some peoples' lives have been ruined by this outright corruption.
They need to get those Katrina buses, put bars on them and haul off people by the thousands to jail. From the scumbag mortgage brokers telling people they should take out that second loan, to the people involved in those Ditec commercials.
Don't just put the hedge fund managers in jail but make everyone involved in this from top to bottom in prison.
Otherwise, they find another business to screw people over.
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CF makes some great points.
NWJTF- DO not touch WaMu!!!! It will not exist soon enough. It is toxic!
It looks like Wamu will be bought up tomorrow.
This is getting crazy!!!
:o :o :o
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Tzvi, I am afraid I agree completely with Pheasant here. Socialism (of this sort) is never justifiable or acceptable. By rewarding crony-capitalist monopolistic corporations with these obscene bailouts, we (in addition to raping the taxpayer) are only making sure that they will continue to go along as they have before, with the same old destructive and cannibalistic practices. Last time I checked, the feds themselves were in the hole to the tune of 430 billion dollars or something like that. Clearly, the whores of Washington can't afford to save everybody's donkey. Bailouts like the $85 billion one to AIG, only forestall the inevitable. These cancerous, rotted-out corporate corpses will come down soon enough no matter what the way the economy is.
I conceded earlier on that a total, cross-board economic collapse like this will suck big-time for many innocent people, but it's the only way the strong will be brought down. Only if these dinosaurs go extinct will there be a chance at new, upstart businesses and a real free market once again. If Congress hadn't unanimously voted to bail out the airlines after 9/11, who knows--maybe we would have, by now, several upstart airlines that actually charge reasonable rates and care about security. Do I like that our government is literally in bed with the monopolies and would never take them apart if their lives depended on it? No. I would much prefer that the gov't had dealt with these robber-barons ten years ago, before the economy was going down the tubes, but the reality of today is what it is and we shouldn't try to alter nature.
Brian, I don't agree that the Depression is what generated Hitler. The German people were always ferociously anti-Semitic, and were waiting only for a leader to come along who said and practiced what they wanted all along. Hitler (ys"vz) was just their man. If any particular event facilitated his rise, though, it was the "humiliating" defeat of Germany in WW1, which wounded Teutonic national pride very badly, and the "unfair" terms of Versailles (even though Germany's treatment of nations it conquered, and settlements it imposed, such as after the Franco-Prussian war of 1871 or Belgium in 1914 was far more ruthless).
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Tzvi, I am afraid I agree completely with Pheasant here. Socialism (of this sort) is never justifiable or acceptable. By rewarding crony-capitalist monopolistic corporations with these obscene bailouts, we (in addition to raping the taxpayer) are only making sure that they will continue to go along as they have before, with the same old destructive and cannibalistic practices. Last time I checked, the feds themselves were in the hole to the tune of 430 billion dollars or something like that. Clearly, the whores of Washington can't afford to save everybody's donkey. Bailouts like the $85 billion one to AIG, only forestall the inevitable. These cancerous, rotted-out corporate corpses will come down soon enough no matter what the way the economy is.
I conceded earlier on that a total, cross-board economic collapse like this will suck big-time for many innocent people, but it's the only way the strong will be brought down. Only if these dinosaurs go extinct will there be a chance at new, upstart businesses and a real free market once again. If Congress hadn't unanimously voted to bail out the airlines after 9/11, who knows--maybe we would have, by now, several upstart airlines that actually charge reasonable rates and care about security. Do I like that our government is literally in bed with the monopolies and would never take them apart if their lives depended on it? No. I would much prefer that the gov't had dealt with these robber-barons ten years ago, before the economy was going down the tubes, but the reality of today is what it is and we shouldn't try to alter nature.
Brian, I don't agree that the Depression is what generated Hitler. The German people were always ferociously anti-Semitic, and were waiting only for a leader to come along who said and practiced what they wanted all along. Hitler (ys"vz) was just their man. If any particular event facilitated his rise, though, it was the "humiliating" defeat of Germany in WW1, which wounded Teutonic national pride very badly, and the "unfair" terms of Versailles (even though Germany's treatment of nations it conquered, and settlements it imposed, such as after the Franco-Prussian war of 1871 or Belgium in 1914 was far more ruthless).
I have to disagree that the Germans were inherently anti-Semitic. I think they succumbed and embraced evil like no nation had ever done before. Before the Holocaust, Germany was seen as the most friendly and progressive nation to accept the Jewish people. Many other nations like Greece and Ukraine gladly accepted and welcomed the Nazis but were in different political and economic situations from Germany. The German Jews in the 1920's thought there was no way genocide could happen in their country. Rabbi Kahane talks about this topic in that Youtube video in the Thunderbird Hotel in Minnesota. I believe it's in the sixth section of the video. He said it could happen in America under certain circumstances and that as Americans say something like that could never happen, that is very similar to what people said during the Weimar Republic in Germany.
We are still in a very very strong nation. We still have 6% unemployment and a 3% GDP growth rate.
Think of the complaining and turning to Obama already with this historically minor change that has been going on.
I don't think we can imagine a situation where there was 30-50% unemployment and what people's reaction would be. We are talking about a situation worse than the American Depression.
I could be wrong but what I'm saying is that there were many countries that had historically very anti-Semtic regimes that were not better than pre 1920's Germany.
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Shalom,
Thank Hashem my company is still growing and our stock is still strong, despite the turbulent market. May he continue to bless my family and the entire Jewish nation.
muman613
PS: I daven each day for the stability of our wonderful host nation of America, without whom my family would probrobly been exterminated in Ukraine.
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Shalom,
Thank Hashem my company is still growing and our stock is still strong, despite the turbulent market. May he continue to bless my family and the entire Jewish nation.
muman613
PS: I daven each day for the stability of our wonderful host nation of America, without whom my family would probrobly been exterminated in Ukraine.
Really well said! America has been good to me and my family and I pray it continues. America has been a righteous nation and home to freedom and true religious freedom. Most Americans and the immigrants of the past are good people who respect other people and want prosperity and a good future.
That's why it is so importnat we don't have "change."
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Ok...I don't want to leave that message as the 666th, it's bad luck...
:P
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Shalom,
I also want you to know that my brother, who died working for Cantor Fitzgerald on 9/11, worked for several of these companies which are failing. I dont know the exact details, but I believe he worked for the following companies:
Dillon, Read & Co
Morgan Stanley
Lehman Brothers
He worked for several of the major Wall Street investment companies. I do not want to cast aspersions on the entire industry.
muman613
PS: Im coming up on post 999 which is 666 upside down... :)
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Shalom,
I also want you to know that my brother, who died working for Cantor Fitzgerald on 9/11, worked for several of these companies which are failing. I dont know the exact details, but I believe he worked for the following companies:
Dillon, Read & Co
Morgan Stanley
Lehman Brothers
He worked for several of the major Wall Street investment companies. I do not want to cast aspersions on the entire industry.
muman613
PS: Im coming up on post 999 which is 666 upside down... :)
There are definitly good people in all these industries. I just met so many awful people who sold mortages, didn't care about the people they sold to and hurt a lot of people. These people just got to move on to soemthing else which I find really upsetting.
Was your brother older or younger than you? He must have been a very smart guy to be working for one of those firms!
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There are definitly good people in all these industries. I just met so many awful people who sold mortages, didn't care about the people they sold to and hurt a lot of people. These people just got to move on to soemthing else which I find really upsetting.
Was your brother older or younger than you? He must have been a very smart guy to be working for one of those firms!
Shalom,
My brother was 3 years younger than I. It is so sad that his Yartzeit is always the week before Rosh Hashana. I always have to do a lot of questioning and introspection during this time of year.
The anniversary of the 9/11 attacks is 23 Elul which is exactly 7 days before Rosh Hashana.
muman613
PS: I just noticed that the Parasha for the Shabbat of 9/11 is Nitzavim, which contains Hashems promise to the Jewish nation...
http://www.jtsa.edu/PreBuilt/ParashahArchives/jpstext/nitzavim.shtml
Dueteronomy 29:9
9 You stand this day, all of you, before the Lord your G-d — your tribal heads, your elders and your officials, all the men of Israel, 10 your children, your wives, even the stranger within your camp, from woodchopper to waterdrawer — 11 to enter into the covenant of the Lord your G-d, which the Lord your G-d is concluding with you this day, with its sanctions; 12 to the end that He may establish you this day as His people and be your G-d, as He promised you and as He swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 13 I make this covenant, with its sanctions, not with you alone, 14 but both with those who are standing here with us this day before the Lord our G-d and with those who are not with us here this day.
15 Well you know that we dwelt in the land of Egypt and that we passed through the midst of various other nations through which you passed; 16 and you have seen the detestable things and the fetishes of wood and stone, silver and gold, that they keep. 17 Perchance there is among you some man or woman, or some clan or tribe, whose heart is even now turning away from the Lord our G-d to go and worship the gods of those nations — perchance there is among you a stock sprouting poison weed and wormwood. 18 When such a one hears the words of these sanctions, he may fancy himself immune, thinking, "I shall be safe, though I follow my own willful heart" — to the utter ruin of moist and dry alike. 19 The Lord will never forgive him; rather will the Lord's anger and passion rage against that man, till every sanction recorded in this book comes down upon him, and the Lord blots out his name from under heaven.
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That has to be really difficult.
I pray Bin Laden and Zawahiri can be caught/killed soon so you and others can have justice for your loved ones.
I have a younger brother too and I can't imagine what that day was like for you.
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That has to be really difficult.
I pray Bin Laden and Zawahiri can be caught/killed soon so you and others can have justice for your loved ones.
I have a younger brother too and I can't imagine what that day was like for you.
NorthWestJTF,
Thank you very much for your kind words. It is good to be able to share this with people who care.
muman613
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I just want to note that the government 'bail outs' do not rescue the equity nor the management. For example Fannie and Freddie's stocks are now worthless and AIG's are also almost comletely wiped out. The managements will leave and their stock options are worthless and with no 'golden parachutes'.
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I just want to note that the government 'bail outs' do not rescue the equity nor the management. For example Fannie and Freddie's stocks are now worthless and AIG's are also almost comletely wiped out. The managements will leave and their stock options are worthless and with no 'golden parachutes'.
Zelhar, the problem the stocks are only for a short time worthless. If this crisis is over, the owners of this company will regain a lot of their former wealth.
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Zelhar, the problem the stocks are only for a short time worthless. If this crisis is over, the owners of this company will regain a lot of their former wealth.
Not really, now 80% of AIG equity belongs to the government. So even if its stock recovers everything it had lost, whoever has hold it since before the implosion would still lose 80% of its pre-implosion value.
And Fannie and Freddie's stocks are completely worthless. I think the stocks will be 99% diluted in favor of the government.
The government is bailing out the financial institutions who are still floating, because if AIG, Fannie and Freddy defaulted on their trillion dollar debts, then many other financial institutions would collapse.
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Not really, now 80% of AIG equity belongs to the government. So even if its stock recovers everything it had lost, whoever has hold it since before the implosion would still lose 80% of its pre-implosion value.
And Fannie and Freddie's stocks are completely worthless. I think the stocks will be 99% diluted in favor of the government.
The government is bailing out the financial institutions who are still floating, because if AIG, Fannie and Freddy defaulted on their trillion dollar debts, then many other financial institutions would collapse.
I have read, that these two banks will stay in private hands. Do you have a source for this?
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I have read, that these two banks will stay in private hands. Do you have a source for this?
Here are the official Terms:
http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/reports/pspa_factsheet_090708 hp1128.pdf (http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/reports/pspa_factsheet_090708 hp1128.pdf)
From what I see the government is issued with rights for 80% plus a billion 'preferred stocks', which are senior to any other capital, and which suppose to pay annual 10% cash dividend quarterly and 12% if they fail to pay at any quarter (lawyers can be humorous too :::D).
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Here are the official Terms:
http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/reports/pspa_factsheet_090708 hp1128.pdf (http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/reports/pspa_factsheet_090708 hp1128.pdf)
From what I see the government is issued with rights for 80% plus a billion 'preferred stocks', which are senior to any other capital, and which suppose to pay annual 10% cash dividend quarterly and 12% if they fail to pay at any quarter (lawyers can be humorous too :::D).
Thank you :)
But the link is working only if you copy it in the browser address line.
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These pigs have raped the American consumer for far too long. No average-sized house should cost, today, more than 50-100k.
I totally agree.