JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: q_q_ on December 23, 2008, 09:04:54 AM
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Note- from Reply #7, it turns to the charedi thing.
neturei karta spokesman says he wants israel eliminated, "hopefully peacefully"
Rabbi Ahron Cohen at 1:48 into the clip[1], After being asked if the israeli government should be eliminated. He said "our constant prayer and wish is that the Zionist regime and their government should be eliminated. Hopefully peacefully, but totally"
He is an english speaker, he -doesn't- have a limited vocabulary. their standard line is that they want the peaceful dismantlement of the state.
This is the first time I have heard a NK spokesman say he wants a non peaceful destruction.. So it is quite significant..
Rabbi Weiss is there but does not disagree with his colleague.
It should be noted, that the NK branch that rabbi weiss is from. (the followers of rabbi beck), are an extreme one that get alot of media attention.. But not all NK branches are. For example, Rabbi Domb's branch, in London, is against involvement with "palestinians". [1]
[1]
title: Rabbi Weiss of Naturei Karta on Iranian channel 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85jSgzs9-nU
[2] http://jschick.blogspot.com/2006/02/rabbi-mayer-schiller-on-neturei-karta.html
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The Inranian Nazi asked "Would you like to BE ELIMINATED the Israeli govenment or not..."
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the arab's english and words he chose were typical for an arab muslim.
I think the first word of "rabbi" ahron's response was "Absolutely".. and I think he used the word eliminated too(echoing the sentiment of the questioner).
Also, considering that these guys keep saying that there was media distortion, and ahmedinejad does not want israel wiped off the map. It's interesting that this guy says he(himself-"rabbi ahron") does want israel -eliminated- (pref peacefully, he says, but we know that's a slim possibility for the arabs).
ps- Zelhar, it's important that people know not to use your writing as an example of how to spell. e.g. Government as in Govern. You missed the 'r'. Is hebrew your first language? If so, your english isn't that bad. You should still check things like that if you're not sure. It's very quick when online to look up a word.
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It's possible that I've seen a more hideous group of people, but I can't think of any right now. How can any Jew with an ounce of sanity prefer exile over living in their own land? Do they perhaps have a romanticized view of galut history? These Jews are primarily from Hungary. Do they not remember the 400,000+ Jews who were deported and murdered from Hungary in the summer of 1944? Shouldn't that have made it clear to them that we are not meant to live among the nations? And I'm just curious, why do these Jews, who make the attempt to follow hallacha faithfully, stop at G-d's commandment to live in the land He gave to Abraham? I admit fully, I am guilty of not living inside Israel also, but I wouldn't actively seek to destroy those who do. I think they are being better Jews than I am. Is that what is troubling these people--that they can't stand that there are other Jews who are fulfilling a mitzvot that they are not? Are they jealous and resentful? The bottom line is, I am not interested in their psychology. If they are an enemy of the state of Israel, then they are an enemy of the Jewish people. I am reminded of a quotation that seems particularly relevant here:
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their garments, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can not longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared."
Cicero, 42 B.C.
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Hebrew is my language, and I missed the 'r'. I have a spell checker which is constantly on (ffox); but, sometimes when I post in this forum I switch off the spell checker in a vain attempt to slip a typo that would go unnoticed ;)
But seriously I need a spell checker in Hebrew too because I'm prone to making silly typos.
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It's possible that I've seen a more hideous group of people, but I can't think of any right now. How can any Jew with an ounce of sanity prefer exile over living in their own land? Do they perhaps have a romanticized view of galut history? These Jews are primarily from Hungary. Do they not remember the 400,000+ Jews who were deported and murdered from Hungary in the summer of 1944? Shouldn't that have made it clear to them that we are not meant to live among the nations? And I'm just curious, why do these Jews, who make the attempt to follow hallacha faithfully, stop at G-d's commandment to live in the land He gave to Abraham? I admit fully, I am guilty of not living inside Israel also, but I wouldn't actively seek to destroy those who do. I think they are being better Jews than I am. Is that what is troubling these people--that they can't stand that there are other Jews who are fulfilling a mitzvot that they are not? Are they jealous and resentful? The bottom line is, I am not interested in their psychology. If they are an enemy of the state of Israel, then they are an enemy of the Jewish people. I am reminded of a quotation that seems particularly relevant here:
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their garments, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can not longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared."
Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
They are not to be feared because the only "harm" they do is they make our enemies say that they are against zionism not judaism, zionists not jews..
Even in the case in 1929 where the arabs murdered religious anti-zionists..before the state existed. It was the idea of zionism that bothered them, a jewish state of any size.
Before then, jews and christians were pretty much equally persecuted.. in arab countries.
What summarizes arab treatment of jews and dhimmitude, is something somebody a NK type said to me, when he saw that I understood..
Now this is important, it's a profound point that most people do not know about the NK and perhaps also the satmar mentality.
This NK type said - they would not have hurt us, they needed us, we were like donkeys for them.
Do you see.. All they want from goyim is to be left alone to keep the Torah, they don't seek out or ask for or try to get respect.
(they obviously prefer to be respected. They do live in america rather than the arab world. Better health care, more freedom-not getting bossed around, but they wouldn't hold placards asking for that)
Here is another example I heard in an interview Harold Channer gave Rabbi Dovid Weiss. Channer(a bumbling secular anti-zionist), played "devils advocate", and put the basic secular zionist stance to rabbi dovid weiss, a stance that Channer seemed to have some sympathy for. The stance was something like.. Just as every people has its land, and religions too most of them(christians have rome, muslims macca).. so the jewish people should have their land. (he meant ruling it of course) So, NK's dovid weiss said "No", and that it's not Judaism.
Channer then said, but blacks campaigned for equal rights.. they didn't want to be discriminated against. Why can't jews? Dovid Weiss said, jews just want to be allowed to follow the Torah, and we don't want anything else.
That view is not a view people are aware of.
Another point, and most religious jews understand. Secular anti-zionism may well be anti-semitism - discriminating against jews. But religious anti-zionism is not.
One thing though that I think is actually possibly anti-semitic , was that which Rabbi Ahron Cohen said, which I started the thread with.
I know that charedim when the righteous are killed, they don't like it but they see it as a korban/sacrifice to G-d, dying al kiddush hashem, sanctifying G-d's name. But since they see zionists as big sinners, this can't even be explained that way at all. It just looks like anti-semitism .. I guess they see it as a chillul hashem, a public sin, and that zionists deserve to die. I don't know how they'd -try to- justify a statement like that.
You mention the holocaust. But in their view the gedolim were not wrong, and cannot be, and they said stay in poland , and died in kiddush hashem.
(I wonder though if given the chance again, if they would have left, as anti-zionists, to israel). They would see the holocaust as a punishment for some sin.. maybe reform, maybe zionism, they would probably say zionism.
Rabbi Kahane suggested that it was punishment for the sin of -not- going to israel! That actually makes alot of sense naturally , because if G-d wants us to go to israel, and we don't go of our own volition, then maybe he would force us there through persecution.. (though we are persecuted there too.. though that could be explained - naturally- as the sin of keeping arabs - gentiles that don't accept the 7 noachide laws - in our land. Or the sin of merely risking jewish lives by keeping arabs - killers - in our land)
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Q_Q, I don't understand something. Do you mean to say that these people consider those Jews who stayed and died in the Shoah as having sanctified G-d's name? Maybe I misunderstood. They couldn't possibly believe that, could they? Although I guess any group of Jews who are sick enough to support Iran while wishing to destroy Israel, is sick enough to believe anything.
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Q_Q, I don't understand something. Do you mean to say that these people consider those Jews who stayed and died in the Shoah as having sanctified G-d's name? Maybe I misunderstood. They couldn't possibly believe that, could they? Although I guess any group of Jews who are sick enough to support Iran while wishing to destroy Israel, is sick enough to believe anything.
The whole charedi world believes that the victims are holy, not just neturei karta.. (though neturei karta may narrow it to anti-zionist religious jews)
It is shocking.. I read in The Jewish Tribune(a charedi paper) , the paper referred to jews that were murdered in Mumbai, as Kedoshim(holy ones).
They referred to it as a Korban/Churban(sacrifice). Or, the victims are a Korban/Churban. I think it can mean destruction perhaps, but commonly sacrifice. (or the context is commonly sacrifice, and that is what it means in peoples' minds)
They didn't celebrate it of course.. it's solemn.. But they still look at it like that. I guess gives it a purpose.. that they didn't die in vein.
The archbishop of canterbury visited the death camps (concentration?! camps)
and said something so obvious.. obvious to a kahanist anyway, and anybody that reads the bible. "this is not a holy place, it's a place of profanity". He is right.. But the idea of it being a holy place must have come from that charedi thinking that he must have been subjected to somehow! Maybe through writing shown to him by the britain's chief rabbi that went there. The chief rabbi commented on the trip but his message wasn't so poignant
But it's not just charedim..
secular jews turn it into a religion itself, and the essence of being jewish!
There was an article on A7, about Secular Israelis that keep no jewish festival, but go on an annual pilgrimage to auschwitz.. like a religion.
And similarly, Alan Dershowitz, when asked what is a jew. He said it's too soon after the holocaust to decide that.
The fact is that secular jews define it as whoever Hitler decided is a jew. If you're jewish enough for Hitler, then you're jewish. Hence, it doesn't matter how little they keep. And if somebody has a jewish ancestor then it's like they are jewish. Throughout the diaspora, for secular jews certainly, it becomes a central point of what being jewish is meant to be..
On another note,
I was at bit concerned regarding the term holocaust, which is used in old christian bible translations to mean "burnt offering". I had read somebody write "who pushed that term upon us".. After seeing the article in the tribune, I wondered if it was this mindset of many religious jews.. But it turns out that the term was used in the past too . According to wikipedia, the word "holocaust" has been used since the 18th century to refer to the violent deaths of a large number of people
Strange though that the word holocaust was used.. because it suggests a burnt offering to G-d, given its use in bible translations.
Wikipedia says
"
The word "holocaust" originally derived from the Greek word holokauston, meaning "a completely (holos) burnt (kaustos) sacrificial offering", or "a burnt sacrifice offered to a G-d". In Greek and Roman pagan rites, gods of the earth and underworld received dark animals, which were offered by night and burnt in full. The word "holocaust" was later adopted in Greek translations of the Torah to refer to the "olah", sacrificial burnt offerings that Jews were required to make
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The only words I can say to him is that he should be blown to pieces.
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The only words I can say to him is that he should be blown to pieces.
Very nice, but when there are consecutive intelligent posts (as there were before yours), it's better not to interrupt with an unintellectual remark.
I'm sure you'd agree that your remark was unintellectual.
Intelligent discussion should not be diverted. Even if you are right that he should be blown to pieces.
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Q_Q, I don't understand something. Do you mean to say that these people consider those Jews who stayed and died in the Shoah as having sanctified G-d's name? Maybe I misunderstood. They couldn't possibly believe that, could they? Although I guess any group of Jews who are sick enough to support Iran while wishing to destroy Israel, is sick enough to believe anything.
The whole charedi world believes that the victims are holy, not just neturei karta.. (though neturei karta may narrow it to anti-zionist religious jews)
It is shocking.. I read in The Jewish Tribune(a charedi paper) , the paper referred to jews that were murdered in Mumbai, as Kedoshim(holy ones).
They referred to it as a Korban/Churban(sacrifice). Or, the victims are a Korban/Churban. I think it can mean destruction perhaps, but commonly sacrifice. (or the context is commonly sacrifice, and that is what it means in peoples' minds)
They didn't celebrate it of course.. it's solemn.. But they still look at it like that. I guess gives it a purpose.. that they didn't die in vein.
The archbishop of canterbury visited the death camps (concentration?! camps)
and said something so obvious.. obvious to a kahanist anyway, and anybody that reads the bible. "this is not a holy place, it's a place of profanity". He is right.. But the idea of it being a holy place must have come from that charedi thinking that he must have been subjected to somehow! Maybe through writing shown to him by the britain's chief rabbi that went there. The chief rabbi commented on the trip but his message wasn't so poignant
But it's not just charedim..
secular jews turn it into a religion itself, and the essence of being jewish!
There was an article on A7, about Secular Israelis that keep no jewish festival, but go on an annual pilgrimage to auschwitz.. like a religion.
And similarly, Alan Dershowitz, when asked what is a jew. He said it's too soon after the holocaust to decide that.
The fact is that secular jews define it as whoever Hitler decided is a jew. If you're jewish enough for Hitler, then you're jewish. Hence, it doesn't matter how little they keep. And if somebody has a jewish ancestor then it's like they are jewish. Throughout the diaspora, for secular jews certainly, it becomes a central point of what being jewish is meant to be..
On another note,
I was at bit concerned regarding the term holocaust, which is used in old christian bible translations to mean "burnt offering". I had read somebody write "who pushed that term upon us".. After seeing the article in the tribune, I wondered if it was this mindset of many religious jews.. But it turns out that the term was used in the past too . According to wikipedia, the word "holocaust" has been used since the 18th century to refer to the violent deaths of a large number of people
Strange though that the word holocaust was used.. because it suggests a burnt offering to G-d, given its use in bible translations.
Wikipedia says
"
The word "holocaust" originally derived from the Greek word holokauston, meaning "a completely (holos) burnt (kaustos) sacrificial offering", or "a burnt sacrifice offered to a G-d". In Greek and Roman pagan rites, gods of the earth and underworld received dark animals, which were offered by night and burnt in full. The word "holocaust" was later adopted in Greek translations of the Torah to refer to the "olah", sacrificial burnt offerings that Jews were required to make
"
This is a type of sickness, a product of diseased minds. One of the many things the holocaust symbolized is Jewish weakness. Jewish weakness can only be interpreted as a desecration of G-d's name. To claim that it is a holy thing is a double desecration. Not only is this claim obscene, there is no basis for it. I admit that I am not an expert in Torah, but I've never read anything in the Torah that suggests that any Jewish death is holy.
Regarding the term 'holocaust', its etymological roots are Greek meaning a great fire. In the 20th century, the term came to be used to describe the Shoah. Later it meant any genocide. Now the term is so misused, that it has lost its meaning. I even hear animal rights activists calling the slaughter of animals a holocaust. The most egregious example of this was when I read on John Robbins website a reference to a slaughterhouse. Robbins called the slaughterhouse an "animal Auschwitz". Consider the obscenity of that.
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" I admit that I am not an expert in Torah, but I've never read anything in the Torah that suggests that any Jewish death is holy."
Their are many. Although in my judgement people in the holocaust dont fall into that category becuase they didn't choose to die, but were slaughtered anyway. Many do concider them as martyrs because they were Jews killed by goyim becuase they were Jews.
With the deaths- for example the Maccabees actually died. Also Rabbi Akiva and his colleagues, and many many others. They refused to stop learning and teaching Torah, choosing to die instead of submit to the decree agains't our religion. That is concidered Kiddush Hashem and is praiseworthy.
(also with for example individuals like what happened in the Chabad house in India- some interpret it as Kiddush Hashem - but that is something deeper, Kabbalistic- becuase their souls in a way choose to be killed for the greater good of all of Israel. Could be that they atoned and took the place of many many others who would have to die. But since they were in a higher spiritual place they were equal to many others. While others might look at it from a different perspective- and say no, their is no Kiddush Hashem in what happened. Infact it was a Hillul Hashem that Jews were killed.) I tend to believe more with the later, although I respect the first opinion.
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" I admit that I am not an expert in Torah, but I've never read anything in the Torah that suggests that any Jewish death is holy."
Their are many. Although in my judgement people in the holocaust dont fall into that category becuase they didn't choose to die, but were slaughtered anyway. Many do concider them as martyrs because they were Jews killed by goyim becuase they were Jews.
same thought I had..
But, it's about public sanctification of G-d's name.. I heard a story of a jew that wrapped himself in a Torah scroll.. He would certainly have given his life for judaism.. if asked to renounce it or die..
And on Yom Kippur, the germans put out lots of food.. It was poisoned but the jews didn't know that. Many of the starving jews refused to eat it because it was Yom Kippur.
With the deaths- for example the Maccabees actually died. Also Rabbi Akiva and his colleagues, and many many others. They refused to stop learning and teaching Torah, choosing to die instead of submit to the decree agains't our religion. That is concidered Kiddush Hashem and is praiseworthy.
even when jews fight and, suppose they die fighting. If jews lose overall, e.g. a failed revolt, then perhaps that's a chillul hashem.. because shows jewish weakness.
(also with for example individuals like what happened in the Chabad house in India- some interpret it as Kiddush Hashem - but that is something deeper, Kabbalistic- becuase their souls in a way choose to be killed for the greater good of all of Israel. Could be that they atoned and took the place of many many others who would have to die. But since they were in a higher spiritual place they were equal to many others. While others might look at it from a different perspective- and say no, their is no Kiddush Hashem in what happened. Infact it was a Hillul Hashem that Jews were killed.) I tend to believe more with the later, although I respect the first opinion.
i've heard mystical ideas like that for tzaddikim..
But it's also when a man of G-d dies naturally, like people said on the death of Rav Kaduri.. Like their merit will bring the redemption nearer.
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I would say that in the case of Mordechai Anielewicz, he sanctified G-d's name by fighting to his death. This is not to say that Anielewicz's death was the holy act, but that his fighting was a holy act. The Warsaw ghetto revolt was one of only a few instances where G-d's name was sanctified during this period.
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Q_Q, you used the word "Palestinian" in your your first post and that should be corrected. Also, you said that Rabbi Dombs branch is not extreme. Are you sure about that? You realize this man couldn't give a damn that jewish blood is spilling in Israel. I don't think it's possible to find kind words for these types of drek.
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q_q_, you sure like to see your own writing even though it doesnt really add much to the discussion. We have talked about Satmar and NK numerous times in the last few months. I even defended the Satmars but I will not defend NK.
Is this supposed to be educational?
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q_q_, you sure like to see your own writing even though it doesnt really add much to the discussion. We have talked about Satmar and NK numerous times in the last few months. I even defended the Satmars but I will not defend NK.
Is this supposed to be educational?
You will not be able to find one thread before this one where a NK spokesman said he wants israel eliminated in any non peaceful manner.. My first post was news. News that is too fine for you to grasp.
Look at zachor's reply, that was a discussion it's impossible to have with somebody of your lowly level. Was the discussion between myself and zachor pointless to you? I doubt you'd have the courage to even say that
And the NK conversation was really over long ago, around Reply #7.. when zachor brought up about the issue of a certain mentality surrounding when jews are killed, which applies to all charedim generally..
You missed all of that too.
It's obvious i'm very critical of NK for this..it looks like they have gone even further than before.. I've always criticised their crazy aspects(standing with terrorists.. but we know about that anyway, it has been mentioned many times on the forum and in the press, and by rabbi kahane and so on)
I'm certainly not asking you to defend Neturei Karta or anything.. I wouldn't ask you to defend a chair.
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Q_Q, you used the word "Palestinian" in your your first post and that should be corrected.
I just corrected it by putting it in quotes..
I used the word accidentally because I was stating somebody else's finding, and I used their words.
Also, you said that Rabbi Dombs branch is not extreme. Are you sure about that? <snip>
if you quote me, you see that I didn't say that. When I talk about an extreme branch of NK, I mean relative to the others. I wasn't misleading enough to say "not extreme", but if I had said it, it would have meant not an extreme branch of neturei karta. Just a regular branch. NK are an extreme bunch..
I should add that from a factual perspective, extreme isn't necessarily bad.
standing with terrorists is bad, and (based on those facts- from rabbi schiller's interview), it looked like some branches of NK don't do that. You didn't dispute te facts of course
I would have said that I am unsure where the differences in stance towards israel, between a less extreme branch of NK e.g. one that doesn't stand with arabs, in comparison to satmar though.. Whether it is none.. Just one is a large chassidic group, and the other a small misnaged one.
Regarding the "less extreme" branch.. it may be that rabbi schiller has his facts wrong.. or was not clear..
I don't know if satmar leaders speak of necessity of rectifying an injustice towards "palestinians".
But rabbi domb does and he is a leader of a branch
"The acknowledgement of this injustice, he says, imposes an obligation on the Neturei Karta to actively seek out Palestinians to make clear their position. Speaking slowly and with emphasis, he declares: 'It's an encouraging matter that young people come out, speak against Zionism. But they also have to guard against speaking nonsense and overdoing it.'
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so basically they are pro "palestinian"
what is worse, this article in the british paper, The Observer
mentions rabbi domb and neturei karta http://www.rense.com/general27/theunorthodox.htm
that says they were at the Trafalger square arab anti israel demonstration
I think that was on shabbat..
It wouldn't suprise me if they broke shabbat to do it..
they could have carried.. walked a long distance..
even used a microphone.
it's not in the spirit of shabbat either.
they would be breaking it under the misconception that they are saving lives! It's even a theological misconception because even if it was true it is so indirect.
Rabbi Kahane never broke shabbat to spread his message. Even though that could save lives.
I have heard of NK breaking shabbat for these things before
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Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name. Martyrdom is not really what I am talking about here. Even when a Jew is made into a martyr, the sanctification stems from the act of the Jew who is defending his faith, not from the killing of that Jew. We can learn a lot from Moses. He killed an Egyptian who was beating a Jew. Would these Haredi Jews do that? Another lesson we can learn from Moses, is that he was not allowed to enter the Land. Why? Because he had faltered in his faith. So G-d punished Moses with what must have been an unbearable punishment. The lesson here is two-fold: 1. Lack of faith is a sin, a grave one; 2. That being denied entrance to the Holy Land is a horrendous punishment. "One who lives outside the Land is as if he has no G-d." These NK Jews are punishing themselves and the Jewish people by claiming that the Jews have no right to return to the Land. If they wish to turn their back to G-d, that is their choice, but they have no right to inflict such a punishment upon the Jewish people.
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<snip>
I'm certainly not asking you to defend Neturei Karta or anything.. I wouldn't ask you to defend a chair.
And you are defending a chair? What is the point of this comment? Believe me that I stand up for what is right and I fight what is wrong.
Regarding NK I will never defend them for their lack of concern for fellow Jews, no matter their level. It is easy for some religious Jews to turn their backs on other Jews who are just as Jewish yet don't observe the mitzvahs as meticulously. I think this may be what has happened to NK. And it is not shocking to me that you are supportive of them.
I have publicly rebuked the NK for standing idle as their fellow Jews are killed. If anyone I know is involved in this hideous NK I will attempt to explain why they are wrong and if they don't renounce such a belief I will never talk to them again. There is no room in the Jewish people for people so rude and arrogant as NK.
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Q_q, need I remind you and the readers that you hijacked Mord's thread on Shas Party corruption this summer by posting four pages' worth of defense of NK?
Some days I wonder if you are a member of Neturei Karta. However, even if that is not the case, you've demonstrated all the credibility on NK of Pinocchio.
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Q_q, need I remind you and the readers that you hijacked Mord's thread on Shas Party corruption this summer by posting four pages' worth of defense of NK?
Some days I wonder if you are a member of Neturei Karta. However, even if that is not the case, you've demonstrated all the credibility on NK of Pinocchio.
post a link to the thread and we'll see
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It should be noted, that the NK branch that rabbi weiss is from. (the followers of rabbi beck), are an extreme one that get alot of media attention.. But not all NK branches are. For example, Rabbi Domb's branch, in London, is against involvement with "palestinians". [1]
I really don't understand this comment. ANY and ALL "branches" of NK are extreme. That is why a whole plethora of Orthodox Jewish groups (INCLUDING SATMAR!) have excommunicated them. Literally, they stand with our enemies against the Jewish people, and do not care how we are destroyed, as long as we are destroyed and forced back into ghettoes. They are simply beyond the pale by all reasonable accounts. Why qq, do you insist upon including 'certain' branches of nk as being more or less legitimate than others. Any NK is heresy.
http://www.petitiononline.com/Neturei/petition.html
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It's possible that I've seen a more hideous group of people, but I can't think of any right now. How can any Jew with an ounce of sanity prefer exile over living in their own land? Do they perhaps have a romanticized view of galut history? These Jews are primarily from Hungary. Do they not remember the 400,000+ Jews who were deported and murdered from Hungary in the summer of 1944? Shouldn't that have made it clear to them that we are not meant to live among the nations? And I'm just curious, why do these Jews, who make the attempt to follow hallacha faithfully, stop at G-d's commandment to live in the land He gave to Abraham? I admit fully, I am guilty of not living inside Israel also, but I wouldn't actively seek to destroy those who do. I think they are being better Jews than I am. Is that what is troubling these people--that they can't stand that there are other Jews who are fulfilling a mitzvot that they are not? Are they jealous and resentful? The bottom line is, I am not interested in their psychology. If they are an enemy of the state of Israel, then they are an enemy of the Jewish people. I am reminded of a quotation that seems particularly relevant here:
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their garments, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can not longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared."
Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
They are not to be feared because the only "harm" they do is they make our enemies say that they are against zionism not judaism, zionists not jews..
Really? Then why do we call for Hashem's retribution against such "harmless" people in the davening every day?
I hope you realize that they are also davening for our destruction, not just going on tv and saying they hope for it. They ARE dangerous. And especially if they breed like rats to proliferate their heresy to more followers or convince other well-meaning and normal Jews to latch onto their skewed beliefs. There couldn't be anything more dangerous than a distortion of Torah under the name of "Judaism." And you'd be hard pressed to find any charedi Jew who would disagree with that.
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Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name.
And the way Tzvi described it, Rav Bar Hayim also rejects that (what Tzvi said). But they redid the machonshilo.org website and his audio shiur about why that concept is mistaken looks like it was taken down from the site. Hopefully they'll get it back up there because I was meaning to listen to that myself. The intro to the shiur explained that it is problematic thinking that Jews killed for being Jews are looked at as "sacrifices" or "atonements" which we hear thrown around all the time these days....
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The original information I had, said that the london group don't stand with terrorists. So I saw no distinction between them and satmar in relation to israel and the arabs.
Given the new information that the london group stand with pro palestinians - people that want to destroy israel.. So I don't see much of a distinction between branches. It seems that one just talks less than the other.
They are all pro palestinian too. I don't think being pro palestinian can be justified.
And it looks like they break shabbat over it too.
They are very small and harmless though. We do pray for the destruction of heretics. But praying for the destruction of those guys isn't a desperate prayer in the sense that we are not in serious danger from them.
I do like the fact that they are fairly open and honest about their position..
Many jews in the modern orthodox world (british modern orthodox is left of american) have no idea that most right wing religious jews in the diaspora are non or anti-zionist! In some of the schools that call themselves zionist, it's a secret. I discovered some years ago that a rabbi in a zionist primary school was an anti-zionist, he just kept quiet. In a secondary school in the area, they claim to follow the teachings of the modern orthodox dfounder rabbi shimshon rephael hirsch, no rabbis told students that he was an anti-zionist. I doubt that even the head of the school knew! So, at least NK are relatively honest and open.
There are jews that have become really religious - black, charedi style. And their parents don't even know that their children are not zionist, their child had kept it secret.
The reality is like a secret that you find out about through private conversation with somebody.. (A modern orthodox jew might sing shir hamaalot to the israeli national anthem.. not even realising it was that tune. A charedi jew might almost pound through the table in frustration - if it's their table, but they may not say why) It's a crazy situation.
I think honesty is important, and at least NK have that in aspects that most regular anti-zionists don't, because they don't want to rock the boat, lest it brings down society!
Neturei Karta are harmless because they don't have power to do much harm(and perhapas some of them don't seek power for themselves either). It's not dangerous like the jewish left - Shimon Peres and Co, any israeli PM.
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Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name.
And the way Tzvi described it, Rav Bar Hayim also rejects that (what Tzvi said). But they redid the machonshilo.org website and his audio shiur about why that concept is mistaken looks like it was taken down from the site. Hopefully they'll get it back up there because I was meaning to listen to that myself. The intro to the shiur explained that it is problematic thinking that Jews killed for being Jews are looked at as "sacrifices" or "atonements" which we hear thrown around all the time these days....
next time it's worth noting down the filename.. then if it disappears you could email the webmaster.
here is a (screenshot!) he sent me of all the filenames
http://rapidshare.com/files/176380389/msfiles.zip.html
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Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name.
And the way Tzvi described it, Rav Bar Hayim also rejects that (what Tzvi said). But they redid the machonshilo.org website and his audio shiur about why that concept is mistaken looks like it was taken down from the site. Hopefully they'll get it back up there because I was meaning to listen to that myself. The intro to the shiur explained that it is problematic thinking that Jews killed for being Jews are looked at as "sacrifices" or "atonements" which we hear thrown around all the time these days....
Actually if anyone reads what I said (read carefully) I said both views, (and I did hear that shiur by Rav Bar Hayim) and I said that I agree with that view (of Rav Bar Hayim), and in addition to that I said their is another view (more Kabbalistic) that says that Jews that die by goyim also do Kiddush Hashe-m and go straight to the highest Olam Haba (becuase they atone for their community, etc.)
I said both views and approaches, and i did say that I agee more with the view of Rav Bar Hayim, but their is some truth in the other view (it is true, but it can be problematic when that view affects our actions and not only stays in the intellect).
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Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name.
And the way Tzvi described it, Rav Bar Hayim also rejects that (what Tzvi said). But they redid the machonshilo.org website and his audio shiur about why that concept is mistaken looks like it was taken down from the site. Hopefully they'll get it back up there because I was meaning to listen to that myself. The intro to the shiur explained that it is problematic thinking that Jews killed for being Jews are looked at as "sacrifices" or "atonements" which we hear thrown around all the time these days....
Actually if anyone reads what I said (read carefully) I said both views, (and I did hear that shiur by Rav Bar Hayim) and I said that I agree with that view (of Rav Bar Hayim), and in addition to that I said their is another view (more Kabbalistic) that says that Jews that die by goyim also do Kiddush Hashem and go straight to the highest Olam Haba (becuase they atone for their community, etc.)
I said both views and approaches, and i did say that I agee more with the view of Rav Bar Hayim, but their is some truth in the other view (it is true, but it can be problematic when that view affects our actions and not only stays in the intellect).
Your post - the one i read anyway - didn't say why either view might be mistaken.. He isn't asking for both views..
KahaneBT is wondering what rabbi bar hayyim's reason was why the other view or other views, are mistaken.. If you don't know the reason, then I suspect we don't even know his view correctly either. If judea is about maybe he can chip in!
Kahane
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Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name.
And the way Tzvi described it, Rav Bar Hayim also rejects that (what Tzvi said). But they redid the machonshilo.org website and his audio shiur about why that concept is mistaken looks like it was taken down from the site. Hopefully they'll get it back up there because I was meaning to listen to that myself. The intro to the shiur explained that it is problematic thinking that Jews killed for being Jews are looked at as "sacrifices" or "atonements" which we hear thrown around all the time these days....
Actually if anyone reads what I said (read carefully) I said both views, (and I did hear that shiur by Rav Bar Hayim) and I said that I agree with that view (of Rav Bar Hayim), and in addition to that I said their is another view (more Kabbalistic) that says that Jews that die by goyim also do Kiddush Hashem and go straight to the highest Olam Haba (becuase they atone for their community, etc.)
I said both views and approaches, and i did say that I agee more with the view of Rav Bar Hayim, but their is some truth in the other view (it is true, but it can be problematic when that view affects our actions and not only stays in the intellect).
Your post - the one i read anyway - didn't say why either view might be mistaken.. He isn't asking for both views..
KahaneBT is wondering what rabbi bar hayyim's reason was why the other view or other views, are mistaken.. If you don't know the reason, then I suspect we don't even know his view correctly either. If judea is about maybe he can chip in!
Kahane
I already said, becuase it leads to inaction. People just saying they died Al Kiddush Hashe-m and not doing anything about that (for the future).
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Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name.
And the way Tzvi described it, Rav Bar Hayim also rejects that (what Tzvi said). But they redid the machonshilo.org website and his audio shiur about why that concept is mistaken looks like it was taken down from the site. Hopefully they'll get it back up there because I was meaning to listen to that myself. The intro to the shiur explained that it is problematic thinking that Jews killed for being Jews are looked at as "sacrifices" or "atonements" which we hear thrown around all the time these days....
Actually if anyone reads what I said (read carefully) I said both views, (and I did hear that shiur by Rav Bar Hayim) and I said that I agree with that view (of Rav Bar Hayim), and in addition to that I said their is another view (more Kabbalistic) that says that Jews that die by goyim also do Kiddush Hashem and go straight to the highest Olam Haba (becuase they atone for their community, etc.)
I said both views and approaches, and i did say that I agee more with the view of Rav Bar Hayim, but their is some truth in the other view (it is true, but it can be problematic when that view affects our actions and not only stays in the intellect).
Your post - the one i read anyway - didn't say why either view might be mistaken.. He isn't asking for both views..
KahaneBT is wondering what rabbi bar hayyim's reason was why the other view or other views, are mistaken.. If you don't know the reason, then I suspect we don't even know his view correctly either. If judea is about maybe he can chip in!
Kahane
I already said, becuase it leads to inaction. People just saying they died Al Kiddush Hashem and not doing anything about that (for the future).
That wouldn't make the view mistaken.. just means some reasoning from that view is mistaken.
I suppose that people that die sanctifying G-d's name, would live sanctifying it.. And better the latter. It seems obvious, but does it say that anywhere?
There is the concept - to live by the mitzvot and not die by them.. [1]
or, that it's better to live by them than to die by them..
But judging by the reference there, that is making a well known point on a related subject, but not that subject.
So I don't see my reasoning there getting around the inaction problem.
BTW, saying that the view that they died al kiddush hashem leads to inaction
a)that does not mean the view is mistaken
b)it does not resolve the contradiction, that how can jewish weakness(a chillul hashem) be a kiddush hashem. Ok, it's spiritual strength.. But physical weakness.
[1]
If a Jew is forced to either transgress any of the mitzvot commanded by the Torah or else be killed, he should transgress rather than be killed. For regarding the mitzvot, it is written, "[You shall keep My chukkim and mishpatim,] which man should do and live by them" -- live by them and not die by them... When does the above apply? In regard to all mitzvot, except for [the prohibitions against] idolatry, [certain] sexual sins, and murder. Regarding these three transgressions, if a person is told to either commit one of them or else be killed, he should be killed rather than transgress. (Mishneh Torah, Laws of the Fundamentals of Torah, 5:1-2).
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One thing that did occur to me, and I am not defending these people, is that at least they are more honest than the Leftist Jews. Woody Allen and Richard Dreyfus, and David Axelrod, and Michael Lerner are cowards and frauds. They don't believe that Israel should exist, but they would never admit that. Instead, they complain about "Israeli agression" and side with the arabs every single chance they get. The sick, weak, Leftist Jew pretends to be supporters of Israel, but will stab Israel in the back. I prefer to know who my enemies are.