JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Abben on January 15, 2009, 12:29:26 PM
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Does anyone here like to hunt? I think its totally wrong to hunt, and the only way I would kill an animal is if me or my family's life was in danger. I would like to hear everyone's views on this thanks.
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I completely agree with you, Abben. In Judaism, it's prohibited.
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They should allow a muzzie hunting season
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Let's hunt Bambi :::D
People in my family hunt
If you do not regulate the amount of an animal in an area they will soon over take the area
Besides people used to hunt animals a long time ago for food
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Relatives on my moms side hunt because their not Jewish, my grandpa lives in Wisconsin and hunts deer and makes deer sausage.
My dad's side, I don't know, my grandpa was a farmer and he had guns but i'm not sure if he hunted though he was Jewish.
I know hunting for sport in Judaism is prohibited because it's cruelty to animals, but deer are technically kosher aren't there? I think the problem is that the method of slaughter is not considered kosher though it's certainly not unheard of to hear of Jewish hunters. How did Jews survive back in the day to obtain meat/food? I thought I read passages in the bible before that stated animals were hunted for food at some point for survival.
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It is totally repulsive to me, I am so disgusted just by the thought of it.
Especially disgusting is 'big game hunting' because it is exceptionally cruel.
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Tried it one time and it bored me to tears.
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I assume you are a vegetarian... otherwise you are a hypocrite.
Hunters aren't psychos. Hunters are people who prefer to do things the 'old way'. If youve ever 'roughed it' before, youll know what im talking about. You do it, because its a very primal, innate, natural think.
Ive NEVER known a hunter, including myself, who hasn't eaten the kill. If someone hunts with no intention of eating the animal.. then YES... thats a bit barbaric.
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Define hunting:
Fishing can be considered a type of hunting. We are allowed to fish. Certainly if you go hunting for deer in an overpopulated deer area and killing the deer doesn't cause it to suffer needlessly, you are doing good for the environment. But then again, I'm not sure if it is Jewishly kosher to do somethign like that. You're not supposed to cause animals to suffer. And if you shoot and kill a deer, it's not kosher to eat anyway...
For me, I would have trouble killing an animal especially a bird or mammal. Rather than hunt to kill, I would rather hunt to capture then let go.. Are hunt and injury temporarily then let go...such as with darts which put the animal to sleep for a few hours until it wakes up. Or even to fish just to put the fish back in the ocean.
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Relatives on my moms side hunt because their not Jewish, my grandpa lives in Wisconsin and hunts deer and makes deer sausage.
My dad's side, I don't know, my grandpa was a farmer and he had guns but i'm not sure if he hunted though he was Jewish.
I know hunting for sport in Judaism is prohibited because it's cruelty to animals, but deer are technically kosher aren't there? I think the problem is that the method of slaughter is not considered kosher though it's certainly not unheard of to hear of Jewish hunters. How did Jews survive back in the day to obtain meat/food? I thought I read passages in the bible before that stated animals were hunted for food at some point for survival.
Not with gunpowder..lol!! but probably with traps and then they woudl slaughter the animal properly. If a bullet kills any animal...even a kosher one, it's deemed unkosher to eat.
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It is totally repulsive to me, I am so disgusted just by the thought of it.
Especially disgusting is 'big game hunting' because it is exceptionally cruel.
I think hunting is quite a bit more humane than the way animals are slaughtered and sold to grocery stores, those slaughter houses have horrible conditions.
If the person is eating the meat, what is the problem? I'm sure it's a lot healthier than the food sold in supermarkets with growth hormones and other crap they inject into the chickens.
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I thought about going poaching in my country this year. A friend offred me a very great freezer for small money. So I could store the bait. This would safe me lots of money. No joke.
You Jews here are in a special situation because of kashruth.
But I am not. So there is basically for the animal no difference if you shoot it in the head in the slaughterhouse or you shoot it in the safari respectively in the woods.
There are only two important things, first that you do it quickly and without greater suffering for the animal and second that you reallly use the animal for food and other usefull things and process nearly all parts of it.
I think if you do this two things it is morally totally justified.
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I hunt and I enjoy it, but I only hunt what I eat. There's nothing wrong with hunting as long as you eat it and it's regulated.
Think of it this way, if you DO NOT hunt deer, they will die anyway from either starvation, illness or getting hit by a car.
Perfect example - years ago in N.J, the animals rights activists actually banned deer hunting in the state for three years. The population became so big, and the death toll was so grave that the deer carcasses were contaminating the soil near the reservoir and N.J had to import water from other states till the reservoir was treated.
C.T deer population also increased and the insurance companies complained to the state that they are paying for all of these car hitting deer.
Remember, we don't have many predators to control the herbivore population (in comparison with Africa), so hunting is actually vital to the ecosystem here.
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Relatives on my moms side hunt because their not Jewish, my grandpa lives in Wisconsin and hunts deer and makes deer sausage.
My dad's side, I don't know, my grandpa was a farmer and he had guns but i'm not sure if he hunted though he was Jewish.
I know hunting for sport in Judaism is prohibited because it's cruelty to animals, but deer are technically kosher aren't there? I think the problem is that the method of slaughter is not considered kosher though it's certainly not unheard of to hear of Jewish hunters. How did Jews survive back in the day to obtain meat/food? I thought I read passages in the bible before that stated animals were hunted for food at some point for survival.
Not with gunpowder..lol!! but probably with traps and then they woudl slaughter the animal properly. If a bullet kills any animal...even a kosher one, it's deemed unkosher to eat.
I go fishing quite often, I do deep sea fishing and also lake fishing, but to cause an animal to not suffer, what about a headshot? I mean ok, that's a bit unrealistic but a headshot is pretty quick and painless.
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I hunt and I enjoy it, but I only hunt what I eat. There's nothing wrong with hunting as long as you eat it and it's regulated.
Think of it this way, if you DO NOT hunt deer, they will die anyway from either starvation, illness or getting hit by a car.
Perfect example - years ago in N.J, the animals rights activists actually banned deer hunting in the state for three years. The population became so big, and the death toll was so grave that the deer carcasses were contaminating the soil near the reservoir and N.J had to import water from other states till the reservoir was treated.
C.T deer population also increased and the insurance companies complained to the state that they are paying for all of these car hitting deer.
Remember, we don't have many predators to control the herbivore population (in comparison with Africa), so hunting is actually vital to the ecosystem here.
Very good points Vito. :)
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I hunt and I enjoy it, but I only hunt what I eat. There's nothing wrong with hunting as long as you eat it and it's regulated.
Think of it this way, if you DO NOT hunt deer, they will die anyway from either starvation, illness or getting hit by a car.
Perfect example - years ago in N.J, the animals rights activists actually banned deer hunting in the state for three years. The population became so big, and the death toll was so grave that the deer carcasses were contaminating the soil near the reservoir and N.J had to import water from other states till the reservoir was treated.
C.T deer population also increased and the insurance companies complained to the state that they are paying for all of these car hitting deer.
Remember, we don't have many predators to control the herbivore population (in comparison with Africa), so hunting is actually vital to the ecosystem here.
Your absolutely correct, in Wisconsin, there are so many deer that it is not safe to drive on the roads a lot of times because they will literally just run in front of a car and the deer and people in the car are killed. I remember a incident where the deer was injured and not dead after being hit and it woke up startled and started kicking the lady in the face out of panic and ended up killing her. This is a much more painful way to die than being shot with a firearm and depending on the shot is usually quick.
In the event that we are in a economic crisis and food is difficult to come by, is hunting prohibited by kosher laws?
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I hunt and I enjoy it, but I only hunt what I eat. There's nothing wrong with hunting as long as you eat it and it's regulated.
Think of it this way, if you DO NOT hunt deer, they will die anyway from either starvation, illness or getting hit by a car.
Perfect example - years ago in N.J, the animals rights activists actually banned deer hunting in the state for three years. The population became so big, and the death toll was so grave that the deer carcasses were contaminating the soil near the reservoir and N.J had to import water from other states till the reservoir was treated.
C.T deer population also increased and the insurance companies complained to the state that they are paying for all of these car hitting deer.
Remember, we don't have many predators to control the herbivore population (in comparison with Africa), so hunting is actually vital to the ecosystem here.
Your absolutely correct, in Wisconsin, there are so many deer that it is not safe to drive on the roads a lot of times because they will literally just run in front of a car and the deer and people in the car are killed. I remember a incident where the deer was injured and not dead after being hit and it woke up startled and started kicking the lady in the face out of panic and ended up killing her. This is a much more painful way to die than being shot with a firearm and depending on the shot is usually quick.
In the event that we are in a economic crisis and food is difficult to come by, is hunting prohibited by kosher laws?
If you were lost in the wilderness and if you didn't eat you were going to die, then you can shoot a deer, a wild boar or eat mice and bugs if you had to survive.
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It is totally repulsive to me, I am so disgusted just by the thought of it.
Especially disgusting is 'big game hunting' because it is exceptionally cruel.
I think hunting is quite a bit more humane than the way animals are slaughtered and sold to grocery stores, those slaughter houses have horrible conditions.
If the person is eating the meat, what is the problem? I'm sure it's a lot healthier than the food sold in supermarkets with growth hormones and other crap they inject into the chickens.
I think if animals are to be slaughtered at all, than it must be as painless and humane as possible. I am a vegan and I wouldn't even wear leather because I don't won't to be responsible for cruelty to animals.
But hunting is a cruel way to kill an animal. Some hunters like to use crossbow which is horrific, but a shot gun kill is most likely prolonged and painful too. And of course there are hunting traps which I assume everyone here objects to because they are basically a torture device.
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It is totally repulsive to me, I am so disgusted just by the thought of it.
Especially disgusting is 'big game hunting' because it is exceptionally cruel.
I think hunting is quite a bit more humane than the way animals are slaughtered and sold to grocery stores, those slaughter houses have horrible conditions.
If the person is eating the meat, what is the problem? I'm sure it's a lot healthier than the food sold in supermarkets with growth hormones and other crap they inject into the chickens.
I think if animals are to be slaughtered at all, than it must be as painless and humane as possible. I am a vegan and I wouldn't even wear leather because I don't won't to be responsible for cruelty to animals.
But hunting is a cruel way to kill an animal. Some hunters like to use crossbow which is horrific, but a shot gun kill is most likely prolonged and painful too. And of course there are hunting traps which I assume everyone here objects to because they are basically a torture device.
Zelhar, have you ever seen a deer get shot with a 30-06? Trust me, it's not suffering...
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It is totally repulsive to me, I am so disgusted just by the thought of it.
Especially disgusting is 'big game hunting' because it is exceptionally cruel.
I think hunting is quite a bit more humane than the way animals are slaughtered and sold to grocery stores, those slaughter houses have horrible conditions.
If the person is eating the meat, what is the problem? I'm sure it's a lot healthier than the food sold in supermarkets with growth hormones and other crap they inject into the chickens.
I think if animals are to be slaughtered at all, than it must be as painless and humane as possible. I am a vegan and I wouldn't even wear leather because I don't won't to be responsible for cruelty to animals.
But hunting is a cruel way to kill an animal. Some hunters like to use crossbow which is horrific, but a shot gun kill is most likely prolonged and painful too. And of course there are hunting traps which I assume everyone here objects to because they are basically a torture device.
Zelhar, have you ever seen a deer get shot with a 30-06? Trust me, it's not suffering...
Is that a pellet shot ? I concede that if the killing method is humane and there is an excess population of deer, than hunting is morally equivalent to 'normal' slaughter.
And what about the bigger beasts- a bear ? an elephant ? a whale ?
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It is totally repulsive to me, I am so disgusted just by the thought of it.
Especially disgusting is 'big game hunting' because it is exceptionally cruel.
I think hunting is quite a bit more humane than the way animals are slaughtered and sold to grocery stores, those slaughter houses have horrible conditions.
If the person is eating the meat, what is the problem? I'm sure it's a lot healthier than the food sold in supermarkets with growth hormones and other crap they inject into the chickens.
I think if animals are to be slaughtered at all, than it must be as painless and humane as possible. I am a vegan and I wouldn't even wear leather because I don't won't to be responsible for cruelty to animals.
But hunting is a cruel way to kill an animal. Some hunters like to use crossbow which is horrific, but a shot gun kill is most likely prolonged and painful too. And of course there are hunting traps which I assume everyone here objects to because they are basically a torture device.
Everything comes from animals regardless if we think so or not though, if you ever taken headache medicine, they use the lining of pig to make the pill capsules.
What do you wear for shoes? Most shoes are made out of leather or some sort of material, shirts made from cotton, plastics come from oil which are from degrading/dead organisms.
A shotgun is the most effective, my uncle had to put down his dog that was dying of cancer and he was very sad to have to do it but the dog was suffering and used a shotgun to put the dog down. It was quick and painless, the dog did not feel a thing.
Eating meat is just natural human instinct, plus they would eat us if they had the chance.
Have you ever watched Discovery Channel or the show Planet Earth? The way those animals die is probably much much more painful than by any shotgun, I don't think a shark sinking it's teeth into a seal or a lion ripping a zebra to pieces is exactly a pleasant experience.
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It is totally repulsive to me, I am so disgusted just by the thought of it.
Especially disgusting is 'big game hunting' because it is exceptionally cruel.
I think hunting is quite a bit more humane than the way animals are slaughtered and sold to grocery stores, those slaughter houses have horrible conditions.
If the person is eating the meat, what is the problem? I'm sure it's a lot healthier than the food sold in supermarkets with growth hormones and other crap they inject into the chickens.
I think if animals are to be slaughtered at all, than it must be as painless and humane as possible. I am a vegan and I wouldn't even wear leather because I don't won't to be responsible for cruelty to animals.
But hunting is a cruel way to kill an animal. Some hunters like to use crossbow which is horrific, but a shot gun kill is most likely prolonged and painful too. And of course there are hunting traps which I assume everyone here objects to because they are basically a torture device.
Zelhar, have you ever seen a deer get shot with a 30-06? Trust me, it's not suffering...
Is that a pellet shot ? I concede that if the killing method is humane and there is an excess population of deer, than hunting is morally equivalent to 'normal' slaughter.
And what about the bigger beasts- a bear ? an elephant ? a whale ?
Who shoots bullets at a whale?
They have special guns for elephants and certin ammo made for hunting Bears
(http://www.mfs2000.hu/loszer/30_06Sp.jpg)
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It is totally repulsive to me, I am so disgusted just by the thought of it.
Especially disgusting is 'big game hunting' because it is exceptionally cruel.
I think hunting is quite a bit more humane than the way animals are slaughtered and sold to grocery stores, those slaughter houses have horrible conditions.
If the person is eating the meat, what is the problem? I'm sure it's a lot healthier than the food sold in supermarkets with growth hormones and other crap they inject into the chickens.
I think if animals are to be slaughtered at all, than it must be as painless and humane as possible. I am a vegan and I wouldn't even wear leather because I don't won't to be responsible for cruelty to animals.
But hunting is a cruel way to kill an animal. Some hunters like to use crossbow which is horrific, but a shot gun kill is most likely prolonged and painful too. And of course there are hunting traps which I assume everyone here objects to because they are basically a torture device.
Everything comes from animals regardless if we think so or not though, if you ever taken headache medicine, they use the lining of pig to make the pill capsules.
What do you wear for shoes? Most shoes are made out of leather or some sort of material, shirts made from cotton, plastics come from oil which are from degrading/dead organisms.
A shotgun is the most effective, my uncle had to put down his dog that was dying of cancer and he was very sad to have to do it but the dog was suffering and used a shotgun to put the dog down. It was quick and painless, the dog did not feel a thing.
Eating meat is just natural human instinct, plus they would eat us if they had the chance.
Have you ever watched Discovery Channel or the show Planet Earth? The way those animals die is probably much much more painful than by any shotgun, I don't think a shark sinking it's teeth into a seal or a lion ripping a zebra to pieces is exactly a pleasant experience.
If its a matter of life or death there is no question about it. I would take the medicine even though it must be tested on animals and possibly contain animal extracts. Oil doesn't count as animal, besides it is mostly comprised of ancient plant, and very primitive lifeforms.
Now animals would eat us or that the cause suffer to other animals but we should know better, that's why we are humans and they are beasts.
Of course I am in favor of mercy killing a sick or severely wounded animal.
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It is totally repulsive to me, I am so disgusted just by the thought of it.
Especially disgusting is 'big game hunting' because it is exceptionally cruel.
I think hunting is quite a bit more humane than the way animals are slaughtered and sold to grocery stores, those slaughter houses have horrible conditions.
If the person is eating the meat, what is the problem? I'm sure it's a lot healthier than the food sold in supermarkets with growth hormones and other crap they inject into the chickens.
I think if animals are to be slaughtered at all, than it must be as painless and humane as possible. I am a vegan and I wouldn't even wear leather because I don't won't to be responsible for cruelty to animals.
But hunting is a cruel way to kill an animal. Some hunters like to use crossbow which is horrific, but a shot gun kill is most likely prolonged and painful too. And of course there are hunting traps which I assume everyone here objects to because they are basically a torture device.
Zelhar, have you ever seen a deer get shot with a 30-06? Trust me, it's not suffering...
Is that a pellet shot ? I concede that if the killing method is humane and there is an excess population of deer, than hunting is morally equivalent to 'normal' slaughter.
And what about the bigger beasts- a bear ? an elephant ? a whale ?
Who shoots bullets at a whale?
They have special guns for elephants and certin ammo made for hunting Bears
(http://www.mfs2000.hu/loszer/30_06Sp.jpg)
Whales are harpooned, which is EXTREMELY cruel way to kill. And what about crossbow hunting, do you at least concede that it should be banned ?
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Zelhar, have you ever seen a deer get shot with a 30-06? Trust me, it's not suffering...
Is that a pellet shot ? I concede that if the killing method is humane and there is an excess population of deer, than hunting is morally equivalent to 'normal' slaughter.
And what about the bigger beasts- a bear ? an elephant ? a whale ?
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A pellet? You shoot pellets out of a bb gun. A 30-06 is about the size of your middle finger.
How would you rather be slaughtered? Getting cut at the throat for 30 seconds or with a bullet in one second?
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Crossbow hunting should not be banned People hunt with the second image more then the first
(http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/ProductImages/bows/pse/PSE06_Rattler_Crossbow.jpg) (https://www.storesonlinepro.com/files/1824247/uploaded/6293Timber%20Wolf.jpg)
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It is totally repulsive to me, I am so disgusted just by the thought of it.
Especially disgusting is 'big game hunting' because it is exceptionally cruel.
I think hunting is quite a bit more humane than the way animals are slaughtered and sold to grocery stores, those slaughter houses have horrible conditions.
If the person is eating the meat, what is the problem? I'm sure it's a lot healthier than the food sold in supermarkets with growth hormones and other crap they inject into the chickens.
I think if animals are to be slaughtered at all, than it must be as painless and humane as possible. I am a vegan and I wouldn't even wear leather because I don't won't to be responsible for cruelty to animals.
But hunting is a cruel way to kill an animal. Some hunters like to use crossbow which is horrific, but a shot gun kill is most likely prolonged and painful too. And of course there are hunting traps which I assume everyone here objects to because they are basically a torture device.
Everything comes from animals regardless if we think so or not though, if you ever taken headache medicine, they use the lining of pig to make the pill capsules.
What do you wear for shoes? Most shoes are made out of leather or some sort of material, shirts made from cotton, plastics come from oil which are from degrading/dead organisms.
A shotgun is the most effective, my uncle had to put down his dog that was dying of cancer and he was very sad to have to do it but the dog was suffering and used a shotgun to put the dog down. It was quick and painless, the dog did not feel a thing.
Eating meat is just natural human instinct, plus they would eat us if they had the chance.
Have you ever watched Discovery Channel or the show Planet Earth? The way those animals die is probably much much more painful than by any shotgun, I don't think a shark sinking it's teeth into a seal or a lion ripping a zebra to pieces is exactly a pleasant experience.
If its a matter of life or death there is no question about it. I would take the medicine even though it must be tested on animals and possibly contain animal extracts. Oil doesn't count as animal, besides it is mostly comprised of ancient plant, and very primitive lifeforms. http://www.autobahngold.de/erkennenelektronischestesten.htm
Now animals would eat us or that the cause suffer to other animals but we should know better, that's why we are humans and they are beasts.
Of course I am in favor of mercy killing a sick or severely wounded animal.
I think it is our free choice to eat animals or not to eat. I respect your decision.
But if I like to eat one time in the week a roast there is nothing wrong with it.
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Crossbow hunting should not be banned People hunt with the second image more then the first
(http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/ProductImages/bows/pse/PSE06_Rattler_Crossbow.jpg) (https://www.storesonlinepro.com/files/1824247/uploaded/6293Timber%20Wolf.jpg)
Yes, but the bow is not accurate enough for a beginner. The crossbow is more like a rifle and for shure the better choice for average people.
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There is no question that a bullet to the brain gives a swift death. I think no hunter can guaranty that all his kills are such a perfect shot.
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There is no question that a bullet to the brain gives a swift death. I think no hunter can guaranty that all his kills are such a perfect shot.
The butcher can fail to in using the captive-bolt pistol properly.
I agree as far as only skilled people should hunt.
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I don't categorically deny the right of man to eat animal. Although some species should be respected and not eaten. Specifically- whales and dolphins, apes, elephants, parrots- for their higher intelegence; dogs, cats, and horses- because they were especially domesticated to be pets/companions/work for man.
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I wouldn't hunt but I think it's ok if people do it if they are doing it for food purposes and the animal dies quickly. The only other reason that an animal might justifiably be hunted is if they pose a direct threat to human life and there aren't any other viable options.
I don't like the idea of people hunting for sport, it seems as if they're killing something to have fun. I have a real problem with that because I don't see how a nice person could have fun by killing an animal recreationally. I mean most people would think someone was sick in the head if they went around a neighborhood shooting dogs and cats and laughing because it was fun and drinking beer to celebrate.
I especially hate it when people "hunt" lions, wolves, cougars, or other animals that are just hunted for the sport aspect and not for any real purpose other than killing for fun.
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I don't categorically deny the right of man to eat animal. Although some species should be respected and not eaten. Specifically- whales and dolphins, apes, elephants, parrots- for their higher intelegence; dogs, cats, and horses- because they were especially domesticated to be pets/companions/work for man.
I agree with you and there are many more.
I think Judaism is not so wrong with it's restrictions.
I rarely eat animals that are not allowed by kashruth, althrough sometimes I eat pork and rabbit and it is allowed at least for me.
The other animals I would eat too, but only if it is an issue of survival.
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I wouldn't hunt but I think it's ok if people do it if they are doing it for food purposes and the animal dies quickly. The only other reason that an animal might justifiably be hunted is if they pose a direct threat to human life and there aren't any other viable options.
I don't like the idea of people hunting for sport, it seems as if they're killing something to have fun. I have a real problem with that because I don't see how a nice person could have fun by killing an animal recreationally. I mean most people would think someone was sick in the head if they went around a neighborhood shooting dogs and cats and laughing because it was fun and drinking beer to celebrate.
I especially hate it when people "hunt" lions, wolves, cougars, or other animals that are just hunted for the sport aspect and not for any real purpose other than killing for fun.
I am with you Ruby.
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I don't categorically deny the right of man to eat animal. Although some species should be respected and not eaten. Specifically- whales and dolphins, apes, elephants, parrots- for their higher intelegence; dogs, cats, and horses- because they were especially domesticated to be pets/companions/work for man.
I agree with you and there are many more.
I think Judaism is not so wrong with it's restrictions.
I rarely eat animals that are not allowed by kashruth, althrough sometimes I eat pork and rabbit and it is allowed at least for me.
The other animals I would eat too, but only if it is an issue of survival.
Huh?
Pork is never Kosher... Who told you that Pork is kosher for you?
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According to Judaism it is wrong to hunt. There is a proscribed way to Slaughter animals and it is called Schechting.
A Jew can hunt as long as the animal is given as food to a gentile. I have heard this from my Rabbi.
From Chabad site: http://www.chabad.org/kids/noahsark/default_cdo/aid/533783/jewish/Animals-Rights.htm
Animals Rights
Question:
What is Judaism's view on hunting? What rights do animals have according to Judaism?
Answer:
Some of the worst abuse of animals was, and still is, carried out in the name of sport. A favorite Roman sport was the "hunting" of wild animals inside the amphitheater, and pitting wild animals against each other. During the reign of Augustus Caesar, more than 3000 wild animals were slaughtered in front of howling Roman mobs. Kings and noblemen throughout the ages hunted a multitude of wild animals — birds, stags, boars, and others. One nobleman in the seventeenth century CE is reputed to have killed more than 4,000 red deer during a lifetime of hunting. How many were wounded and crippled has not been recorded.
Until the eighteenth century the general view among people was that animals have no rights and no feelings. Then some voices began to be raised against cruelty to animals: Finally, in the early years of the nineteenth century, first Britain and then France passed laws forbidding cruelty to animals, under threat of punishment. In many countries humane societies were organized to work for the prevention of cruelty to animals. These societies have influenced governments to pass laws to punish people who mistreat animals.
In the United States the first humane society was organized in New York in 1866, under the name of the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA). There are now hundreds of similar societies in the U.S. and many others throughout the world.
There are people who go to all sorts of extremes in their attitude to animals. Some believe that it is wrong to kill creatures (animals) to feed other creatures (humans); and they will therefore eat no fish, meat or fowl. Some believe that it is wrong to use animals in medical research. Some people believe that certain animals are sacred. There is one sect in India, called Jainists, to whom all living things are sacred; they sweep the ground while walking lest they trample an insect!
TZA'AR BA'ALEI CHAIM
It has taken philosophers thousands of years to get down to the debate whether animals have rights of existence and protection, and whether they have feelings, and whether humans have a moral duty to treat them kindly. Even today, hunting and fishing for sport is a favorite pastime in many highly civilized countries. And where this sport is regulated by law, as in this country and many others, it is mainly in order not to endanger the species, but without regard for the animals' feelings, whether or not they enjoy being hunted, wounded and maimed — all for the entertainment of humans. Actually, these hunters are even an insult to the animals they hunt, because in the animal kingdom no animal kills for sport, but only when it is hungry, in keeping with its animal nature that the Creator had given it.
But, while the debate still goes on as to what man's attitude to the lower animals should be, the Torah has already laid down the law of the Creator as to the relationship between man and beast.
The Torah tell us that in the beginning, when G-d created all living creatures, the last ones to be created was Adam and Eve, the first humans, the Creator placed the animal kingdom under the dominion of man. Man was given permission to employ animals in useful services, such as helping him plow his field, carry his loads, provide wool for his clothing, and the like. But meat-eating was not yet permitted.
Only after the Flood, when the animal world was given a new lease on life through the diligent care of Noah and his sons during an entire year, did G-d give man the right to kill animals for food or to enhance his life. But at the same time He gave strict rules that even in the case of such need; the animal should be treated with the least amount of pain. The Torah permits the killing of animals for medical experiments which may save or enhance our lives, but it must be done as humanely as possible. Indeed, the Torah, more than 3300 years ago, laid down a whole set of laws against causing unnecessary pain to animals (tza'ar ba'alei chaim). Here are some examples:
* The Torah strictly forbids cutting a piece of meat from a living animal for food — a practice that is still found among ranchers in certain countries, who cut a slice of meat from a steer, bandage the wound, then barbecue for themselves a juicy steak in the field. This law is universal, applying to all mankind, not only to Jews.
* Animals belonging to Jews must not do any work on Shabbat, like their masters. Thus, animals, too, are given one day's rest every week. This law is included in the Ten Commandments!
* The Torah requires a Jew to help unload an overburdened pack animal as quickly as possible, even if the animal belongs to a wicked person, and regardless whether the owner is a Jew or not.
* An ox and a donkey may not be harnessed together to pull a plow. One of the reasons for it is that they are of unequal strength, and one of them is therefore likely to have to work harder than the other.
* In a previous article we mentioned the prohibition to slaughter a mother and its calf on the same day. According to Maimonides the reason for this commandments is to prevent the slaughtering the calf in the presence of its mother, which would be very cruel. For, as this great physician explains, the attachment of a mother to its young is a matter of natural feelings, and exists even among animals.
In the Talmud the laws of tza'ar ba'alei chaim are treated in detail, and our Sages often emphasize how considerate and kind human beings must be towards animals, in keeping with the ways of G-d, of whom it is written, "His mercies extend to all His creatures" (Psalms 145:9).
Sources:
Rashi, Genesis 1:29.
Maimonides, Guide for the Perplexed 3:43.
Mindel Nissan. Talks & Tales No. 492.
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I don't categorically deny the right of man to eat animal. Although some species should be respected and not eaten. Specifically- whales and dolphins, apes, elephants, parrots- for their higher intelegence; dogs, cats, and horses- because they were especially domesticated to be pets/companions/work for man.
I agree with you and there are many more.
I think Judaism is not so wrong with it's restrictions.
I rarely eat animals that are not allowed by kashruth, althrough sometimes I eat pork and rabbit and it is allowed at least for me.
The other animals I would eat too, but only if it is an issue of survival.
Huh?
Pork is never Kosher... Who told you that Pork is kosher for you?
You misunderstood me. I am not obligated to keep the laws of Moses concerning food.
You have overread the "althrough".
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I don't categorically deny the right of man to eat animal. Although some species should be respected and not eaten. Specifically- whales and dolphins, apes, elephants, parrots- for their higher intelegence; dogs, cats, and horses- because they were especially domesticated to be pets/companions/work for man.
I agree with you and there are many more.
I think Judaism is not so wrong with it's restrictions.
I rarely eat animals that are not allowed by kashruth, althrough sometimes I eat pork and rabbit and it is allowed at least for me.
The other animals I would eat too, but only if it is an issue of survival.
Huh?
Pork is never Kosher... Who told you that Pork is kosher for you?
You misunderstood me. I am not obligated to keep the laws of Moses concerning food.
You have overread the "althrough".
Oh... Sorry, I made an assumption... Why did you even mention that you only eat kosher animals then... This is what threw me...
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Muman, the allowed animals are much tastier.
You have to do a lot in the kitchen to make i.e a pork roast tasty.
But you can put a piece of beef, goat or sheep in the ofen only with a few spieces.
If the temperature is right you have a feast.
Rabbit you have to prepare with speck and a lot of spieces. If you don't it becomes very dry.
Pig you have to roast with fruits or a lot of marinade.
I think that the kosher foods taste in a natural way good without a lot of preparing.
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Pheasant - "I think that the kosher foods taste in a natural way good without a lot of preparing. "
Usually people say the opposite. Even Rabbi Mizrachi says that non-kosher tastes better- BUT becuase the juices including urine are still in the animal while when it is kosher Jews must take out the liquids with salt- so the blood and the urine are taken out of the body of the animal and the food has less of these juices.
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I completely agree with you, Abben. In Judaism, it's prohibited.
I'm not sure but according to this guy it is (he explains how it is allowed in certain cases)- *I dont know what he is saying is completly true or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1amanmVsz8
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So the Goyim keep bladder ?! This is news to me, in fact I don't believe they do, and certainly not the guts. I don't know about the blood though.
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I have Jewish friends [not orthodox] and they hunt and enjoy it,they do freeze and eat the meat it can last a long time.
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So the Goyim keep bladder ?! This is news to me, in fact I don't believe they do, and certainly not the guts. I don't know about the blood though.
What is hagiss thats eaten in Scotland is'nt that have intestines in it?
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So the Goyim keep bladder ?! This is news to me, in fact I don't believe they do, and certainly not the guts. I don't know about the blood though.
We gut the animal we do not eat the bladder
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Pheasant - "I think that the kosher foods taste in a natural way good without a lot of preparing. "
Usually people say the opposite. Even Rabbi Mizrachi says that non-kosher tastes better- BUT becuase the juices including urine are still in the animal while when it is kosher Jews must take out the liquids with salt- so the blood and the urine are taken out of the body of the animal and the food has less of these juices.
Yes it could be, that the preparation takes some taste from the meat. But on the other hand it will become better salted.
I for my part have never eaten kosher prepared food.
I usually wash the meat before I prepare it and of course I do salt on it.
But the Jewish way is more complex. So it could be that there is taken some taste from it.
But ask our members what they are prefer:
Lamb meat from the leg and steak from the beef or pork roast and rabbit.
I am shure the vast majority of people would vote for the first. :::D
Perhaps R. Mizrachi used here only an allegory with the sense what would be if.
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http://members.tripod.com/~BayGourmet/deer.html
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kosher prepacked food is full of salt and unhealthy.
they don't even bother to put the nutrition label on it.
Kosher MEAT tastes better.. e.g. kosher kebabs taste better than non-kosher kebabs. Maybe because more health concerns are taken care of with the meat. The rabbinical supervision is expensive though, adds to the price alot.
I must say, kosher restaurants in north london didn't do very well on their health inspection, that really shocked the jewish community. They said that they were messy because the inspection was done just before or just after pesach.. (pesach requires massive overhaul of stuff)
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I actually think sliced ham with melted cheese on top and and pork sausage are the tastiest meats. I do like chicken and fish though.
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I actually think sliced ham with melted cheese on top and and pork sausage are the tastiest meats. I do like chicken and fish though.
(http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/5913979/2/istockphoto_5913979_hungry_face.jpg)
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I actually think sliced ham with melted cheese on top and and pork sausage are the tastiest meats. I do like chicken and fish though.
Yes Ruby, but I think I can make even a sole of a shoe tasty by putting it with ice in a cutter and mixing it with onions, flower and a lot of spices.
:::D
The ham with cheese on top I never tried. But after roasting the ham it is like a cracker. There is really not a lot meat in there.
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I actually think sliced ham with melted cheese on top and and pork sausage are the tastiest meats. I do like chicken and fish though.
Must you discuss such treif here? I have said this before... It is inconsiderate to those working hard to keep Kosher to constantly hear about Cheeseburgers and Bacon, etc... Some of us really like those foods but because of the laws of Kashrut we do not partake in it. It is not so nice to discuss such things before people who have a taste for treif.
"Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel said 'A person should not say, 'I do not like meat and milk mixtures'... rather, he should say, 'I would like it but what can I do? My Father in heaven has decreed upon me (not to partake of it).'"
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I like to take either baked ham or lunchmeat and put it in a sandwich on toast and melt cheese in it. It's great. :) The only bad thing is that pigs are more intelligent than some of the other animals so that does cause a problem too.
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I like to take either baked ham or lunchmeat and put it in a sandwich on toast and melt cheese in it. It's great. :) The only bad thing is that pigs are more intelligent than some of the other animals so that does cause a problem too.
Thanks for that info RS...
Are you starting a revolution against Hashem?
PS: A schechted pig is still treif...
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I actually think sliced ham with melted cheese on top and and pork sausage are the tastiest meats. I do like chicken and fish though.
Must you discuss such treif here? I have said this before... It is inconsiderate to those working hard to keep Kosher to constantly hear about Cheeseburgers and Bacon, etc... Some of us really like those foods but because of the laws of Kashrut we do not partake in it. It is not so nice to discuss such things before people who have a taste for treif.
"Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel said 'A person should not say, 'I do not like meat and milk mixtures'... rather, he should say, 'I would like it but what can I do? My Father in heaven has decreed upon me (not to partake of it).'"
Basically you are right. But think about this:
(http://www.rikkilloyd.co.uk/shop/images/2920_rump_steak.jpg)
Lechtz :)
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I actually think sliced ham with melted cheese on top and and pork sausage are the tastiest meats. I do like chicken and fish though.
Must you discuss such treif here? I have said this before... It is inconsiderate to those working hard to keep Kosher to constantly hear about Cheeseburgers and Bacon, etc... Some of us really like those foods but because of the laws of Kashrut we do not partake in it. It is not so nice to discuss such things before people who have a taste for treif.
"Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel said 'A person should not say, 'I do not like meat and milk mixtures'... rather, he should say, 'I would like it but what can I do? My Father in heaven has decreed upon me (not to partake of it).'"
Basically you are right. But think about this:
(http://www.rikkilloyd.co.uk/shop/images/2920_rump_steak.jpg)
Lechtz :)
Indeed Pheasant, that looks delicious... Is that a beef steak?
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Since we are discussing food now, we eat alot of my mac and cheese from scratch.
Here is a picture:
I use organic Tillamook Cheese (with no added hormones, etc). No dyes, either.
Yummy....
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I actually think sliced ham with melted cheese on top and and pork sausage are the tastiest meats. I do like chicken and fish though.
Must you discuss such treif here? I have said this before... It is inconsiderate to those working hard to keep Kosher to constantly hear about Cheeseburgers and Bacon, etc... Some of us really like those foods but because of the laws of Kashrut we do not partake in it. It is not so nice to discuss such things before people who have a taste for treif.
"Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel said 'A person should not say, 'I do not like meat and milk mixtures'... rather, he should say, 'I would like it but what can I do? My Father in heaven has decreed upon me (not to partake of it).'"
Basically you are right. But think about this:
(http://www.rikkilloyd.co.uk/shop/images/2920_rump_steak.jpg)
Lechtz :)
Indeed Pheasant, that looks delicious... Is that a beef steak?
Indeed. :)
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I like to take either baked ham or lunchmeat and put it in a sandwich on toast and melt cheese in it. It's great. :) The only bad thing is that pigs are more intelligent than some of the other animals so that does cause a problem too.
Thanks for that info RS...
Are you starting a revolution against Hashem?
PS: A schechted pig is still treif...
PIGS ARE "KOSHER" FOR NON-JEWS TO EAT
Why do you not understand that.
And you said "It is inconsiderate to those working hard to keep Kosher to constantly hear about Cheeseburgers and Bacon, etc... Some of us really like those foods but because of the laws of Kashrut we do not partake in it. It is not so nice to discuss such things before people who have a taste for treif."
Regarding you not wanting gentiles to talk about non-kosher food. They have every right to eat it, so why can't they talk about it.
You think it will tempt you?
I am as likely to eat a pork sandwich as I am to jump off a cliff.
I don't know why you have so much difficulty not eating pork, but don't expect people to know that.. And don't blame them for "tempting" you.. when they are doing nothing of the sort.
I have often sat right opposite non-jews as they eat, and I eat nothing. They feel a bit guilty sometimes, so I may just bring a sandwich so they don't feel so guilty.. But it doesn't affect me..
If you are tempted by the word pork.. How about a business lunch or at work when non-jews are eating non-kosher food right in front of you. Do you stop them there too?
Is it not nice of people to EAT treif near you?
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I've never hunted, but I plan on learning; Hunting is a self sufficiency and survival skill, everybody should know how, for the days when the supermarkets are empty.
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I've never hunted, but I plan on learning; Hunting is a self sufficiency and survival skill, everybody should know how, for the days when the supermarkets are empty.
I went through a 19 day survival school and got a certificate of completion...US Air Force... ;D
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I like to take either baked ham or lunchmeat and put it in a sandwich on toast and melt cheese in it. It's great. :) The only bad thing is that pigs are more intelligent than some of the other animals so that does cause a problem too.
Thanks for that info RS...
Are you starting a revolution against Hashem?
PS: A schechted pig is still treif...
PIGS ARE "KOSHER" FOR NON-JEWS TO EAT
Why do you not understand that.
And you said "It is inconsiderate to those working hard to keep Kosher to constantly hear about Cheeseburgers and Bacon, etc... Some of us really like those foods but because of the laws of Kashrut we do not partake in it. It is not so nice to discuss such things before people who have a taste for treif."
Regarding you not wanting gentiles to talk about non-kosher food. They have every right to eat it, so why can't they talk about it.
You think it will tempt you?
I am as likely to eat a pork sandwich as I am to jump off a cliff.
I don't know why you have so much difficulty not eating pork, but don't expect people to know that.. And don't blame them for "tempting" you.. when they are doing nothing of the sort.
I have often sat right opposite non-jews as they eat, and I eat nothing. They feel a bit guilty sometimes, so I may just bring a sandwich so they don't feel so guilty.. But it doesn't affect me..
If you are tempted by the word pork.. How about a business lunch or at work when non-jews are eating non-kosher food right in front of you. Do you stop them there too?
Is it not nice of people to EAT treif near you?
I think Muman's problem lies in the nature of the issue.
Every peoples have a weakness.
My assumption is, that Jews have their problem with food and gentiles have their problem with wines. :::D :::D :::D
I have never seen a drunken Jew, but I have seen a lot of overweight. Actually lots of Jews think more about food, than about other fleshly things. :::D
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I like to take either baked ham or lunchmeat and put it in a sandwich on toast and melt cheese in it. It's great. :) The only bad thing is that pigs are more intelligent than some of the other animals so that does cause a problem too.
Thanks for that info RS...
Are you starting a revolution against Hashem?
PS: A schechted pig is still treif...
PIGS ARE "KOSHER" FOR NON-JEWS TO EAT
Why do you not understand that.
And you said "It is inconsiderate to those working hard to keep Kosher to constantly hear about Cheeseburgers and Bacon, etc... Some of us really like those foods but because of the laws of Kashrut we do not partake in it. It is not so nice to discuss such things before people who have a taste for treif."
Regarding you not wanting gentiles to talk about non-kosher food. They have every right to eat it, so why can't they talk about it.
You think it will tempt you?
I am as likely to eat a pork sandwich as I am to jump off a cliff.
I don't know why you have so much difficulty not eating pork, but don't expect people to know that.. And don't blame them for "tempting" you.. when they are doing nothing of the sort.
I have often sat right opposite non-jews as they eat, and I eat nothing. They feel a bit guilty sometimes, so I may just bring a sandwich so they don't feel so guilty.. But it doesn't affect me..
If you are tempted by the word pork.. How about a business lunch or at work when non-jews are eating non-kosher food right in front of you. Do you stop them there too?
Is it not nice of people to EAT treif near you?
I think Muman's problem lies in the nature of the issue.
Every peoples have a weakness.
My assumption is, that Jews have their problem with food and gentiles have their problem with wines. :::D :::D :::D
I have never seen a drunken Jew, but I have seen a lot of overweight. Actually lots of Jews think more about food, than about other fleshly things. :::D
In Britain, gentiles have their problem with beer.
Jews like alcohol - wine, whiskey, "liquor", but limit it to shabbat usually.
I was speaking to a gentile friend a while back.. and we were talking about a place to eat. I went through the places and discussed the portions.. He burst out laughing, and said he had recently been to a Jackie Mason show, and jackie mason said that when a jew goes to look for a place to eat, all he thinks about is the portion, that's the most important thing.
Yes, jews like food.. it's the main thing I think about. But , I can tell you that jews born into a religious home , really don't have any temptation to eat non-kosher food, at all. We don't think about it. Mentally it's as ridiculous as jumping into a fire. Any Jew should be like that, whether he was born religious or not. But certainly, one shouldn't tell non-jews not to do things G-d allows! Only muman does that.
I'm sure Chaim thinks about food -alot- . He is thin, eats healthily.
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I've never hunted, but I plan on learning; Hunting is a self sufficiency and survival skill, everybody should know how, for the days when the supermarkets are empty.
I went through a 19 day survival school and got a certificate of completion...US Air Force... ;D
That is really cool! No fair, I'm going to have to PAY for that training. :teach: <-- Hunting instructor LOL
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It is totally repulsive to me, I am so disgusted just by the thought of it.
Especially disgusting is 'big game hunting' because it is exceptionally cruel.
I think hunting is quite a bit more humane than the way animals are slaughtered and sold to grocery stores, those slaughter houses have horrible conditions.
If the person is eating the meat, what is the problem? I'm sure it's a lot healthier than the food sold in supermarkets with growth hormones and other crap they inject into the chickens.
I think if animals are to be slaughtered at all, than it must be as painless and humane as possible. I am a vegan and I wouldn't even wear leather because I don't won't to be responsible for cruelty to animals.
But hunting is a cruel way to kill an animal. Some hunters like to use crossbow which is horrific, but a shot gun kill is most likely prolonged and painful too. And of course there are hunting traps which I assume everyone here objects to because they are basically a torture device.
Zelhar, have you ever seen a deer get shot with a 30-06? Trust me, it's not suffering...
Is that a pellet shot ? I concede that if the killing method is humane and there is an excess population of deer, than hunting is morally equivalent to 'normal' slaughter.
And what about the bigger beasts- a bear ? an elephant ? a whale ?
Size doesn't matter.. Where is your argument going? Its whether or not the species is overpopulated. I cant imagine a situation where whales would be overpopulated... but if they were... then yes... I guarantee that they would open season, by nearly every country.
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I like to take either baked ham or lunchmeat and put it in a sandwich on toast and melt cheese in it. It's great. :) The only bad thing is that pigs are more intelligent than some of the other animals so that does cause a problem too.
Thanks for that info RS...
Are you starting a revolution against Hashem?
PS: A schechted pig is still treif...
I'm not Jewish so I don't think it's a bad thing for me to eat that stuff. I'm sorry if I upset you though.
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I've never hunted, but I plan on learning; Hunting is a self sufficiency and survival skill, everybody should know how, for the days when the supermarkets are empty.
I went through a 19 day survival school and got a certificate of completion...US Air Force... ;D
That is really cool! No fair, I'm going to have to PAY for that training. :teach: <-- Hunting instructor LOL
Well, if you join the military, you can get it for free..... :laugh:
They taught us how to make shelters out of parachutes, too..
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(http://images.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazo5MF9GLmpwZ3xsb2FkPUwwLGh0dHA6Ly9pbWFnZXM4LmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb20vaW1hZ2UvMjY5ODE0NThfNDAweDQwMC5qcGd8fHNjYWxlPUwwLDQyMCwxNDAsV2hpdGV8Y29tcG9zZT1ibGFuayxMMCxBZGQsMzAsMTcwfGxvYWQ9bWFzayxibGFuazo5MF9GX21hc2suanBnfGNvbXBvc2U9YmxhbmssbWFzayxNYXNrLDAsMHxjcD1yZXN1bHQsYmxhbmt8c2NhbGU9cmVzdWx0LDAsNDgwLFdoaXRlfGNvbXByZXNzaW9uPTk1fA==)
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Briann that sign is great. lol :laugh:
I just hope no one takes it too literally like they do in Liberia.
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(http://images.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazo5MF9GLmpwZ3xsb2FkPUwwLGh0dHA6Ly9pbWFnZXM4LmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb20vaW1hZ2UvMjY5ODE0NThfNDAweDQwMC5qcGd8fHNjYWxlPUwwLDQyMCwxNDAsV2hpdGV8Y29tcG9zZT1ibGFuayxMMCxBZGQsMzAsMTcwfGxvYWQ9bWFzayxibGFuazo5MF9GX21hc2suanBnfGNvbXBvc2U9YmxhbmssbWFzayxNYXNrLDAsMHxjcD1yZXN1bHQsYmxhbmt8c2NhbGU9cmVzdWx0LDAsNDgwLFdoaXRlfGNvbXByZXNzaW9uPTk1fA==)
(http://scott.club365.net/uploaded_images/drooling_homer-712749.gif)
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I like to take either baked ham or lunchmeat and put it in a sandwich on toast and melt cheese in it. It's great. :) The only bad thing is that pigs are more intelligent than some of the other animals so that does cause a problem too.
Thanks for that info RS...
Are you starting a revolution against Hashem?
PS: A schechted pig is still treif...
I'm not Jewish so I don't think it's a bad thing for me to eat that stuff. I'm sorry if I upset you though.
I am not suggesting that you should keep kosher. My only point is that consideration for those who are restricted from such foods. I would not go into a Weight-Watchers group with the most fattening ice-cream or candy because I know that they are struggling to avoid such foods... Thank you for your understanding.
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I don't want you to feel that way Muman I'm sorry I posted things that might have made you feel tempted.
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I like to take either baked ham or lunchmeat and put it in a sandwich on toast and melt cheese in it. It's great. :) The only bad thing is that pigs are more intelligent than some of the other animals so that does cause a problem too.
Thanks for that info RS...
Are you starting a revolution against Hashem?
PS: A schechted pig is still treif...
I'm not Jewish so I don't think it's a bad thing for me to eat that stuff. I'm sorry if I upset you though.
I am not suggesting that you should keep kosher. My only point is that consideration for those who are restricted from such foods. I would not go into a Weight-Watchers group with the most fattening ice-cream or candy because I know that they are struggling to avoid such foods... Thank you for your understanding.
What about people at your workplace eating non-kosher food near you?
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I don't think you meant to be offensive Rubystars. You shouldn't have to apologize. You are just speaking to things you like. You are not trying to tease anyone. I understand how you feel Muman, but we need to coexist here. We can't walk on eggshells all the time.
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I don't think you meant to be offensive Rubystars. You shouldn't have to be apologize. You are just speaking to things you like. You are not trying to tease anyone. I understand how you feel Muman, but we need to coexist here. We can't walk on eggshells all the time.
Yes!!! we need to coexist!!! just like the bumper sticker says:
(http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr31/loyalloyal/coexist2.jpg?t=1232068762)
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I don't think you meant to be offensive Rubystars. You shouldn't have to be apologize. You are just speaking to things you like. You are not trying to tease anyone. I understand how you feel Muman, but we need to coexist here. We can't walk on eggshells all the time.
Is this a Jewish website? Shouldn't people be considerate of Jewish religious observance? I dont think that is asking too much.
EDIT: Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill...
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At least we all know we can AGREE on the allowed food at least, from the Tanach, right?
Let's find what we can AGREE on....!
;D
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muman, your level of arrogance bothers me tremendously. Gentiles are not required to keep Kosher.
When a Gentile talks about eating a ham and cheese sandwich, or even a turkey and cheese sandwich, it doesn't bother me. It actually instills within me a tremendous level of discipline. By the way, I don't want to hear the argument about "temptation" because quite frankly no Jew who keeps Kashrut will all of a sudden pick up a chicken and provolone sandwich after reading a message on this forum.
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What is the source of the no dairy with meat rule?
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What is the source of the no dairy with meat rule?
Thou shall not seethe a kid in its mother's milk. (I think that comes from the book of Numbers, but I'm not positive.)
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"Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk" (Exodus/Shemot 23:19 & 34:26).
Also, here's a good article from JewFAQ.org:
http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm#Separation
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Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life. It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy. Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead. So in Judaism we don't mix the two.
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muman, your level of arrogance bothers me tremendously. Gentiles are not required to keep Kosher.
When a Gentile talks about eating a ham and cheese sandwich, or even a turkey and cheese sandwich, it doesn't bother me. It actually instills within me a tremendous level of discipline. By the way, I don't want to hear the argument about "temptation" because quite frankly no Jew who keeps Kashrut will all of a sudden pick up a chicken and provolone sandwich after reading a message on this forum.
Mishmaat,
You obviously have not been paying attention to the thread. I NEVER said that non-Jews should observe Kashrut. I simply asked for non-Jews to be sensitive to Jews who are trying to keep Kosher. I didn't grow up keeping Kosher and am having a difficult time keeping these laws. I like Bacon Cheeseburgers and ham sandwiches. I haven't eaten either in over six years now.
You must not know many Baal Teshuvas who didn't grow up keeping Kosher. I think it is not sensitive to us who are keeping these laws.
PS: Dont tell me you are not hungry when you smell bacon cooking in the morning.
PPS: In a supportive religious environment people should not speak about things which may tempt others to violate the mitzvot. I realize JTF is not really a Jewish organization, more like a meeting place for pro-Israel people, but regardless we should respect the laws. Why doesn't JTF operate on Shabbat? Because we don't want to lead a jew to violate Shabbat. Why don't we advertise Pork chops? Because it may be seen by a Jew and they will think it is kosher {among other reasons}.
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Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life. It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy. Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead. So in Judaism we don't mix the two.
That is very profound; It's fascinating to see the reasoning.
I found it interesting that so many very specific rules came out of the one line "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk", taken literally, it's very easy to not "cook a kid in the milk of it's mother". Was that the original intention of that line? Because this has been expanded upon, to include all meat, and all dairy, some take it so far as to separate dishes into "meat" and "dairy" only, etc.
Or is it possible there's been a bit of expansion of the rule out of pios exuberance over the ages?
I don't know any religious people other than you guys to ask, so it's good for me to have this resource, I like understanding the reasoning behind things.
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Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life. It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy. Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead. So in Judaism we don't mix the two.
That is very profound; It's fascinating to see the reasoning.
I found it interesting that so many very specific rules came out of the one line "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk", taken literally, it's very easy to not "cook a kid in the milk of it's mother". Was that the original intention of that line? Because this has been expanded upon, to include all meat, and all dairy, some take it so far as to separate dishes into "meat" and "dairy" only, etc.
Or is it possible there's been a bit of expansion of the rule out of pios exuberance over the ages?
I don't know any religious people other than you guys to ask, so it's good for me to have this resource, I like understanding the reasoning behind things.
There are also laws in Numbers about now slaughtering an animal in front its mother, and I think vice versa. As for cooking the kid in its mother's milk, I believe that concept is most likely expanded upon in the Talmud, which is the Jewish Oral Law, which was given to Moses along with the written law. The Oral Laws expand upon and tell us how to follow the written laws in various situations. For instance, the Talmud will explain the exact method of slaughtering an animal as painlessly as possible. It even describes how the knife is to be shaped. The Talmud also explains how a Jewish wedding ceremony is to be conducted, which is not covered in the Torah.
I hope that kind of explains things.
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Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life. It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy. Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead. So in Judaism we don't mix the two.
That is very profound; It's fascinating to see the reasoning.
I found it interesting that so many very specific rules came out of the one line "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk", taken literally, it's very easy to not "cook a kid in the milk of it's mother". Was that the original intention of that line? Because this has been expanded upon, to include all meat, and all dairy, some take it so far as to separate dishes into "meat" and "dairy" only, etc.
Or is it possible there's been a bit of expansion of the rule out of pios exuberance over the ages?
I don't know any religious people other than you guys to ask, so it's good for me to have this resource, I like understanding the reasoning behind things.
No it is not religous exuberance, whatever that is.
The laws concerning Kashrut were given to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai. We have two Torahs, the written Torah and the Oral Torah. The laws concerning meat and milk were part of the Oral Tradition passed down from Sinai.
The idolators used to boil a baby in its mothers milk as part of their service to alien gods. We are commanded not to engage in the activities that idolators take part in.
See Ask Moses: http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/146,276/Why-cant-I-eat-meat-and-milk-together.html
Why can't I eat meat and milk together?
A. The Torah states1, "Do not cook a kid in its' mother's milk".
B. From this prohibition (Negative Mitzvah #187, to be exact), The Rabbis derived the halachah (Jewish law) that any meat product may not be eaten with any dairy product. (From the same passage is derived Negative Mitzvah #186, which separately prohibits cooking, baking or otherwise mixing meat and dairy products together.)
C. So what's so terrible about eating meat and milk together? What's G-d's problem with it? We don't begin to know the whole of it, and we are glad to do it as a Divine decree!2 Nonetheless, some insight into this decree has been shed and here is a Kabbalistic perspective: milk symbolizes life and meat symbolizes death, and combining the two creates a spiritual clash in the celestial realms both of your soul and in the worlds beyond us.
How do I avoid eating meat and milk together?
1. Segregation in the Service
Not eating meat and milk together begins with avoiding situations that might bring the two together in the first place. So start with a kosher kitchen--such a place contains two separate countertop workspaces, and two separate closet spaces each containing a complete set of dishes, cutlery, pots and pans and utensils. According to physics (and you can ask Julia Child about this), metals (and certainly woods) can "absorb" and become impregnated with the "flavors" or residues of the foods prepared with or in them. Thus, your favorite meat stew pot may not be used to make real hot cocoa (which calls for hot milk), because the cocoa milk would have meaty overtones. Additionally, you'll need separate ovens, microwaves and stovetop burners for meat and dairy products, respectively. (Many kosher kitchens simply have two separate ovens.)
2. Take Your Time
After enjoying a hearty pastrami sandwich or any other meat product, halachah rules that you must wait a minimum of six hours before falling upon your beloved mozzarella. Here, human biology comes into play: since it takes the stomach about six hours to fully digest the proteins known as meats, if any dairy product enters the stomach during that time, the stomach will process and churn both foods together. Jewish law considers this to be eating meat and milk together, so do hold off on the pizza if you've just wolfed down a steak.
The situation generally works the same in reverse--you must wait some time after dairy stuff before you eat meat. Some dairy products wend their way through the digestive system faster, so one would only have to wait a few minutes, or an hour, after eating them before moving on to meat. Some cheeses, though, like aged or fine Swiss cheeses, do take six hours to fully break down and absorb into the body, so you may have to wait that long for your pastrami sandwich if you just enjoyed some fine Wisconsin fare.
3. Ask a Rabbi
There are tons of culinary situations that arise in the frenzied, messy madness we know as home cooking--with a rabbinical response for each. What if you put a milk-only fork in a bubbling pot full of hot dogs? How about if you baked some Eggplant Parmesan in your meat oven? That's just a rabbi is for, and it should come as no surprise that two of the four huge sections of halachah whose knowledge is de regeur for rabbi wannabes deal exclusively with meat and milk issues. So if you've got a question about your kosher kitchen, either AskMoses or contact your local Chabad rabbi via chabad.org.
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/146,276/Why-cant-I-eat-meat-and-milk-together.html
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Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life. It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy. Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead. So in Judaism we don't mix the two.
That is very profound; It's fascinating to see the reasoning.
I found it interesting that so many very specific rules came out of the one line "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk", taken literally, it's very easy to not "cook a kid in the milk of it's mother". Was that the original intention of that line? Because this has been expanded upon, to include all meat, and all dairy, some take it so far as to separate dishes into "meat" and "dairy" only, etc.
Or is it possible there's been a bit of expansion of the rule out of pios exuberance over the ages?
I don't know any religious people other than you guys to ask, so it's good for me to have this resource, I like understanding the reasoning behind things.
No it is not religous exuberance, whatever that is.
The laws concerning Kashrut were given to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai. We have two Torahs, the written Torah and the Oral Torah. The laws concerning meat and milk were part of the Oral Tradition passed down from Sinai.
The idolators used to boil a baby in its mothers milk as part of their service to alien gods. We are commanded not to engage in the activities that idolators take part in.
Religious exuberance is just like it sounds, when someone goes over the top with being religious, that person does what is required and then goes further, sometimes to the point of being ridiculous.
The Oral Torah, okay, I've never heard the Oral Torah. I only have access to the written Torah.
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Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life. It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy. Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead. So in Judaism we don't mix the two.
That is very profound; It's fascinating to see the reasoning.
I found it interesting that so many very specific rules came out of the one line "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk", taken literally, it's very easy to not "cook a kid in the milk of it's mother". Was that the original intention of that line? Because this has been expanded upon, to include all meat, and all dairy, some take it so far as to separate dishes into "meat" and "dairy" only, etc.
Or is it possible there's been a bit of expansion of the rule out of pios exuberance over the ages?
I don't know any religious people other than you guys to ask, so it's good for me to have this resource, I like understanding the reasoning behind things.
oral law is the source.
the written torah just has brief points, it' s not the source.
Most of the oral law is from sinai.. some is later The 7 rabbinical mitzvot and the many rabbinical laws to act as a fence(a tadition from, sinai giives rabbis permission).. BUT, I think that one about not eating milk and meat together was a sinai one.. The rabbinical aspect makjing it stricter is over how long to wait between them.
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http://www.mesora.org/milk&meat.html
Question: When you say kosher observance does this mean you have two dishwashers and two sets of dishes and two ovens?
Mesora: We don't mix meat and milk, be it the food, or the dishes - having separate dishes is simply a protective law against actually mixing the two foods.
The foods have no inherent problem if they are mixed, but not mixing meat and milk is based on one of the most basic principles in Judaism, that is, the abolition of anything idolatrous. Since Judaism has at its core the concept of monotheism, the concept of stone idols is ridiculous, and patently against any reason. All matter was created, so matter itself cannot have power over other things, as Something external to itself brought it into existence. Its very existence was willed by G-d, as well as all its properties. G-d therefore is the only being Who can alter natural laws.
There were many idolatrous nations from times beginning until now, and Judaism has many laws opposing such false notions. One of their practices was to cook a calf in its mother milk, as they felt there was some mystical synergy achieved thereby. Similarly, they would sit around pots of blood - believing that the slain animal's spirit would somehow enter them or benefit them. To counter these practices, the Jewish law includes prohibition from mixing milk and meat, and eating anything with blood in it, unless it was salted properly to extract the blood.
Prohibitions as these therefore serve to raise our awareness of corrupt ideas. As all laws aim at the education and benefit of man - a thinking being - and increasing his perception of what truth is, we therefore must know what is fallacy, and steer clear.
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Mishmaat,
You obviously have not been paying attention to the thread. I NEVER said that non-Jews should observe Kashrut. I simply asked for non-Jews to be sensitive to Jews who are trying to keep Kosher. I didn't grow up keeping Kosher and am having a difficult time keeping these laws. I like Bacon Cheeseburgers and ham sandwiches. I haven't eaten either in over six years now.
You must not know many Baal Teshuvas who didn't grow up keeping Kosher. I think it is not sensitive to us who are keeping these laws.
PS: Dont tell me you are not hungry when you smell bacon cooking in the morning.
PPS: In a supportive religious environment people should not speak about things which may tempt others to violate the mitzvot. I realize JTF is not really a Jewish organization, more like a meeting place for pro-Israel people, but regardless we should respect the laws. Why doesn't JTF operate on Shabbat? Because we don't want to lead a jew to violate Shabbat. Why don't we advertise Pork chops? Because it may be seen by a Jew and they will think it is kosher {among other reasons}.
I know you never said that. I said it.
I fully support your effort to keep Kosher. 100%. But don't you think the comparison of a pork chop ad to an innocuous post about a non-Kosher sandwich is a little bit far fetched? I do.
I never get hungry when I smell bacon (or sausages). May Hashem be my witness. I do have a weakness for steak though.
My typical Sunday breakfast consists of a glass of green tea with two teaspoons of brown sugar, a tall glass of "Simply Apple" apple juice, a whole wheat bagel with natural strawberry jam, a banana or an orange, a bowl of cereal with 2% milk and a Vitamin Water.
If I didn't consume chicken and turkey, I'd be a vegetarian.
I've been shomer Kashrut since I was a young teenager.
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"I never get hungry when I smell bacon (or sausages). May Hashem be my witness. I do have a weakness for steak though."
Steak is Kosher. ???
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I know. It's not too healthy though. I try to eat healthy.
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I know. It's not too healthy though. I try to eat healthy.
LOL okay then! ;D
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<snip>
My typical Sunday breakfast consists of a glass of green tea with two teaspoons of brown sugar, a tall glass of "Simply Apple" apple juice, a whole wheat bagel with natural strawberry jam, a banana or an orange, a bowl of cereal with 2% milk and a Vitamin Water.
<snip>
how much sugar do you consume from your apple juice.. which is also -very- acidic no doubt.
if you want to minimize the fat in milk, you can go for fully skimmed milk.
I won't ask you how much you weigh.
You sound like a fat person trying to eat healthily. You have a taste for sugar which you indulge yourself in. A banana is more than sweet enough!
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My wife's brothers all go hunting. They need to, to get through the winter. They also fish and trap.
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q_q_, there's 28 g of sugar in a 240 ml glass of apple juice. Also, in the VitaminWater there's slightly less than 33 g of sugar in a 591 ml bottle.
I'm trying to make that transition from drinking low fat milk to skim milk.
Despite the fact that you didn't ask I weigh about 80 kg. I'm actually fairly thin. I have a fast metabolism.
EDIT: Minor correction. Grams, not milligrams.
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q_q, calling Mishmaat a fat person trying to eat healthy is really not nice. So why don't you just relax, instead of nit-picking everyone's posts?
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No harm done Lisa. I thought that particular post was funny.
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q_q, calling Mishmaat a fat person trying to eat healthy is really not nice. So why don't you just relax, instead of nit-picking everyone's posts?
Right on Lisa!
I already told q_q to chill, once...
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q_q, calling Mishmaat a fat person trying to eat healthy is really not nice. So why don't you just relax, instead of nit-picking everyone's posts?
Lisa, calling a man fat is not like calling a woman fat.
And the way I said it was purely factual.
You may not know that calling a man "thin" could be just as insulting perhaps worse, than calling a man "fat". This is a man-man discussion you have run into and it's out of your depth.
And there is nothing for me to "chill" about since I am actually not angry with anything mishmaat has said.
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q_q, calling Mishmaat a fat person trying to eat healthy is really not nice. So why don't you just relax, instead of nit-picking everyone's posts?
Lisa, calling a man fat is not like calling a woman fat.
And the way I said it was purely factual.
You may not know that calling a man "thin" could be just as insulting perhaps worse, than calling a man "fat". This is a man-man discussion you have run into and it's out of your depth.
There is nothing for me to "chill" about since I am actually not angry with anything mishmaat has said.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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q_q_, there's 28 g of sugar in a 240 ml glass of apple juice. Also, in the VitaminWater there's slightly less than 33 g of sugar in a 591 ml bottle.
I'm trying to make that transition from drinking low fat milk to skim milk.
Despite the fact that you didn't ask I weigh about 80 kg. I'm actually fairly thin. I have a fast metabolism.
This is the nutrition content for "Simply Apple" (the thing you have apparently)
http://www.thedailyplate.com/nutrition-calories/food/simply-apple/apple-juice
in one "serving", 240ml, the amount you have it has 28g sugar!!!
Where are you getting milligrams from?
By the way..
some other info
tropicana
http://b.imagehost.org/0745/tr-1.jpg
22g of carb-sugar, in 240ml (8fl oz)
i'm suprised the sugar in your drink is so low..
Fruits have fructose.. which is sugary.. Apple juice has alot.
Apparently here is the content for orange juice , squeezed. not even from a carton
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Fructose_content_of_Orange_Juice
"Per USDA tables (http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/results.php?storyarticle=4486)
100 g of orange juice have 8.4 g sugar.
orange juice sugar is 50% fructose.
orange juice has approximately 4.2 g fructose per 100 g of juice"
"
I may have made a mistake somewhere... your figure does seem very low.. mg of sugar!! BTW, sweeteners are bad too.. it's bad to have a taste for sugar, you don't need it, you get enough from natural foods and alot from plain or freshly squeezed fruit.
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q_q_ I got the nutritional info directly from the bottle. It's literally just fresh squeezed Pasteurized apple juice.
You could find the same info at: www.simplyorangejuice.com.
You may be right about my sugar intake. I'll certainly take your post into consideration.
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q_q, calling Mishmaat a fat person trying to eat healthy is really not nice. So why don't you just relax, instead of nit-picking everyone's posts?
Lisa, calling a man fat is not like calling a woman fat.
And the way I said it was purely factual.
You may not know that calling a man "thin" could be just as insulting perhaps worse, than calling a man "fat". This is a man-man discussion you have run into and it's out of your depth.
And there is nothing for me to "chill" about since I am actually not angry with anything mishmaat has said.
q_q what the h*** are you talking about??? its out of Lisa's depth???
She's 100% right. I know many heavy(fat) people and they are UNBELIEVABLY self conscious about their weight. If you joke about or comment about their weight... they will take it EXTREMELY personal. Far more-so than someone who is thin.
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Im not fat but I am not thin. I don't know what it's like to be fat so maybe it is something to be self conscious about. Many fat people of lower class seem to be fairly happy about their fat condition. I dont eat necessarily healthy but I also don't count my calories or keep track of the pounds of sugar I eat a day. Im in my early to mid 40s now and my metabolism has changed. I used to be much healthier and played more sports. My health issue currently keeps me from the long walks I used to like to take.
It is good to stay healthy but I still think that unless there are metabolism issues one can indulge in sweet foods. I am not someone to give advice in this area but this is how I have lived my life.
What this has to do with the original thread is completely mysterious to me.
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These threads go all over the place. ::)
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Im not fat but I am not thin. I don't know what it's like to be fat so maybe it is something to be self conscious about. Many fat people of lower class seem to be fairly happy about their fat condition. I dont eat necessarily healthy but I also don't count my calories or keep track of the pounds of sugar I eat a day. Im in my early to mid 40s now and my metabolism has changed. I used to be much healthier and played more sports. My health issue currently keeps me from the long walks I used to like to take.
It is good to stay healthy but I still think that unless there are metabolism issues one can indulge in sweet foods. I am not someone to give advice in this area but this is how I have lived my life.
What this has to do with the original thread is completely mysterious to me.
Sorry if I have offended you. This was not my intention.
My intention was to back you up by pointing out, that food is a great temptation, specially for Jews and so we should consider that. I tried to say it in a humorous way.
:)
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Im not fat but I am not thin. I don't know what it's like to be fat so maybe it is something to be self conscious about. Many fat people of lower class seem to be fairly happy about their fat condition. I dont eat necessarily healthy but I also don't count my calories or keep track of the pounds of sugar I eat a day. Im in my early to mid 40s now and my metabolism has changed. I used to be much healthier and played more sports. My health issue currently keeps me from the long walks I used to like to take.
It is good to stay healthy but I still think that unless there are metabolism issues one can indulge in sweet foods. I am not someone to give advice in this area but this is how I have lived my life.
What this has to do with the original thread is completely mysterious to me.
Sorry if I have offended you. This was not my intention.
My intention was to back you up by pointing out, that food is a great temptation, specially for Jews and so we should consider that. I tried to say it in a humorous way.
:)
No I am not offended by anything in this thread. My only point for commenting was that I know many Jews who came to religious observance late in life. I even have a Rabbi who is a Baal Teshuva and didn't attend Yeshiva till his 30s. He told me that he used to enjoy non-Kosher food and I know what he is talking about. When we develop a taste for something and can totally give it up it shows our devotion, and yirat shamiyim. I did not mean to create a big fuss about this topic. A little bit of understanding is all I am calling for.
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q_q, calling Mishmaat a fat person trying to eat healthy is really not nice. So why don't you just relax, instead of nit-picking everyone's posts?
Lisa, calling a man fat is not like calling a woman fat.
And the way I said it was purely factual.
You may not know that calling a man "thin" could be just as insulting perhaps worse, than calling a man "fat". This is a man-man discussion you have run into and it's out of your depth.
And there is nothing for me to "chill" about since I am actually not angry with anything mishmaat has said.
q_q what the h*** are you talking about??? its out of Lisa's depth???
She's 100% right. I know many heavy(fat) people and they are UNBELIEVABLY self conscious about their weight. If you joke about or comment about their weight... they will take it EXTREMELY personal. Far more-so than someone who is thin.
you are thinking like a woman, anyhow,
this was not a pointless comment, like women make, on appearance.
it was more of a comment about his breakfast..
this was really in the context of a particular discussion (related to calories and sugar content) on an internet forum.
Any fat person is going to be alot less self conscious about their weight if they are hidden from view and behind a computer screen and using an anonymous nickname of their choosing.
When I said he sounds like a fat person trying to eat healthily. Given that he had only mentioned his breakfast and that is what I was quoting.. I had in mind that his breakfast suggests that he has a genetic disposition towards putting on weight, and he craves sugary foods. That doesn't mean he is currently fat.. I don't know what else he eats during the day but probably healthy enough to control his weight. Like an alcoholic, is still an alcoholic, just controlling it.. (though this weakess is worse 'cos you can't not eat)
I did say that the breakfast has unnecessarily unhealthy parts, and that was my point when I made that statement. It's a very important point, and one can focus on that rather than a point about appearance that I wasn't even making. His whole focus was on his breakfast.. It's not like a fat person is going about his daily business and somebody calls him fatso. This was an intelligent discussion about the contents of the invisible man's breakfast..
Most people in the west are a bit podgy, and can't even see their own muscles. That's why Bruce Lee's appearance shocked people.. And women are supposed to be fat, their fat is just strategically placed. By chinese standards, you're all fat.
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Well you are fat too, then..... :P
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(http://links.zigzo.com/files/2007/09/image001.jpg)
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Well you are fat too, then..... :P
it takes hard work!
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q_q, what is it to you even if Mishmaat is fat? The two of you have never met, so what does it have to do with anything here? Did it ever occur to you that he eats the way he does merely because it gives him energy, and keeps him full until lunch?
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q_q, what is it to you even if Mishmaat is fat? The two of you have never met, so what does it have to do with anything here? Did it ever occur to you that he eats the way he does merely because it gives him energy, and keeps him full until lunch?
what do you mean "what is it to you" ?
It has to do with his breakfast. How healthy it is.
Healthy eating is important. You can be offended that I haven't inquired into your diet to offer my thoughts as to what is healthy for you. I probably know better than you, so you are missing out.
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While I wouldn't consider myself obese, I'd like to say that I am not the thinnest guy around. I remember reading about this issue and some of our great sages were not necessarily thin. Also, some people have thyroid problems, diabetes, or other health conditions that can lead to weight problems. I wouldn't want possible members not to join because they aren't thin.
Muman, if you don't like the posts about what the righteous gentiles here eat, then I suggest you not read this thread. Our wonderful members, who meaning no ill at all, need a place to talk about things without fear of offending people's sensitivities (like liberals do) when simply talking about their dinner. The others had no reason for apologizing. If it bothers you this much, why are you combing through every post in this thread?
q_q_, while you were correct in your general assessment, your insults and talking down to people will not be tolerated. Clean it up.
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Here's a very good diet, I did it and dropped 25 lbs. http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19 (http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19) It's fairly easy but takes discipline, what's on the diet, is on the diet, and that's it, no substitutions or it won't work. And it's totally kosher as far as I can tell.
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Here's a very good diet, I did it and dropped 25 lbs. http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19 (http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19) It's fairly easy but takes discipline, what's on the diet, is on the diet, and that's it, no substitutions or it won't work. And it's totally kosher as far as I can tell.
I like the diet. But I have one problem with it.
I love white “white” carbohydrates for breakfast. I think I am not able to make it without toast, porridge oats, biscuits, white bread and other things like this.
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Good protein, the right kind of fat, generous amounts of green veggies, and limited starch and sugar is the way to go. In reference to hunting, just look at out hunter-gatherer an sectors. They were beacons of health.
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Here's a very good diet, I did it and dropped 25 lbs. http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19 (http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19) It's fairly easy but takes discipline, what's on the diet, is on the diet, and that's it, no substitutions or it won't work. And it's totally kosher as far as I can tell.
I like the diet. But I have one problem with it.
I love white “white” carbohydrates for breakfast. I think I am not able to make it without toast, porridge oats, biscuits, white bread and other things like this.
The diet has one day off a week when you can eat whatever you like for the whole day, that's what makes it easy to get through, you stay strict for 6 days, on the 7th, pizza, burgers, ice cream whatever you want, the one day off is not enough to negate your progress if you are strict on the diet.
Side note: He does have "pork" on the list of meats, goes without saying that Jews would simply not use that choice, lol.
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Here's a very good diet, I did it and dropped 25 lbs. http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19 (http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19) It's fairly easy but takes discipline, what's on the diet, is on the diet, and that's it, no substitutions or it won't work. And it's totally kosher as far as I can tell.
I like the diet. But I have one problem with it.
I love white “white” carbohydrates for breakfast. I think I am not able to make it without toast, porridge oats, biscuits, white bread and other things like this.
The diet has one day off a week when you can eat whatever you like for the whole day, that's what makes it easy to get through, you stay strict for 6 days, on the 7th, pizza, burgers, ice cream whatever you want, the one day off is not enough to negate your progress if you are strict on the diet.
Side note: He does have "pork" on the list of meats, goes without saying that Jews would simply not use that choice, lol.
What did you eat for breakfast during this diet?
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Here's a very good diet, I did it and dropped 25 lbs. http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19 (http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19) It's fairly easy but takes discipline, what's on the diet, is on the diet, and that's it, no substitutions or it won't work. And it's totally kosher as far as I can tell.
I like the diet. But I have one problem with it.
I love white “white” carbohydrates for breakfast. I think I am not able to make it without toast, porridge oats, biscuits, white bread and other things like this.
The diet has one day off a week when you can eat whatever you like for the whole day, that's what makes it easy to get through, you stay strict for 6 days, on the 7th, pizza, burgers, ice cream whatever you want, the one day off is not enough to negate your progress if you are strict on the diet.
Side note: He does have "pork" on the list of meats, goes without saying that Jews would simply not use that choice, lol.
What did you eat for breakfast during this diet?
Just like the diet spells out, some scrambled egg whites (with one yolk, or eggbeaters product if you prefer, scrambled on a nonstick pan with minimal oil) and black beans on the side (yes it is weird), actually, you've reminded me, I don't do the beans for breakfast all the time, you can also use oatmeal and stay on the diet, (no butter, sugar, syrup etc) So also scrambled eggs with oatmeal on the side.
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Here's a very good diet, I did it and dropped 25 lbs. http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19 (http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/06/how-to-lose-20-lbs-of-fat-in-30-days-without-doing-any-exercise/#more-19) It's fairly easy but takes discipline, what's on the diet, is on the diet, and that's it, no substitutions or it won't work. And it's totally kosher as far as I can tell.
I like the diet. But I have one problem with it.
I love white “white” carbohydrates for breakfast. I think I am not able to make it without toast, porridge oats, biscuits, white bread and other things like this.
The diet has one day off a week when you can eat whatever you like for the whole day, that's what makes it easy to get through, you stay strict for 6 days, on the 7th, pizza, burgers, ice cream whatever you want, the one day off is not enough to negate your progress if you are strict on the diet.
Side note: He does have "pork" on the list of meats, goes without saying that Jews would simply not use that choice, lol.
What did you eat for breakfast during this diet?
Just like the diet spells out, some scrambled egg whites (with one yolk, or eggbeaters product if you prefer, scrambled on a nonstick pan with minimal oil) and black beans on the side (yes it is weird), actually, you've reminded me, I don't do the beans for breakfast all the time, you can also use oatmeal and stay on the diet, (no butter, sugar, syrup etc) So also scrambled eggs with oatmeal on the side.
Oatmeal is ok? Then it is all not so bad. I will really try it.
Is tea and coffee allowed?
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While I wouldn't consider myself obese, I'd like to say that I am not the thinnest guy around. I remember reading about this issue and some of our great sages were not necessarily thin. Also, some people have thyroid problems, diabetes, or other health conditions that can lead to weight problems. I wouldn't want possible members not to join because they aren't thin.
Muman, if you don't like the posts about what the righteous gentiles here eat, then I suggest you not read this thread. Our wonderful members, who meaning no ill at all, need a place to talk about things without fear of offending people's sensitivities (like liberals do) when simply talking about their dinner. The others had no reason for apologizing. If it bothers you this much, why are you combing through every post in this thread?
q_q_, while you were correct in your general assessment, your insults and talking down to people will not be tolerated. Clean it up.
I think it is in bad taste to talk about non-kosher foods in a forum where there are religious Jews. Sure, people can be rude and say things which offend people, and that is their choice. I am not angry or upset about anything here. I am simply saying that people should consider that in a place where religious Jews are one should be considerate of those trying to keep these laws.
I did not say anything offensive and I did not belittle anyone.
If the Jewish people really want to bring about the victory of Israel they should investigate what Hashem said to his people at Sinai. When we keep the mitzvot we will be undefeatable.
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While I wouldn't consider myself obese, I'd like to say that I am not the thinnest guy around. I remember reading about this issue and some of our great sages were not necessarily thin. Also, some people have thyroid problems, diabetes, or other health conditions that can lead to weight problems. I wouldn't want possible members not to join because they aren't thin.
<snip>
Black people have that -feature- , a genetic disposition to putting on weight, and it means they have fat to burn when exercising.. and they have the calories in to fuel their exercise. They make great athletes partly thanks to that.
Alot of men -wish- they were the fat type. It's fuel for the gym. Fuel that not everybody obtains so easily. For them, being "thin" would be a negative thing. You are looking at being fat type as being a negative thing, listing health problems causing it, and saying some of the sages had the problem. But I wouldn't say it is necessarily a bad thing. Your implication is that being "thin", is not negative. You're a guy, I can tell, largely because your name is Shlomo. So you should know of -a- mentality specific to men that like working out, where being fat is fuel for the gym, and being thin is not.
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While I wouldn't consider myself obese, I'd like to say that I am not the thinnest guy around. I remember reading about this issue and some of our great sages were not necessarily thin. Also, some people have thyroid problems, diabetes, or other health conditions that can lead to weight problems. I wouldn't want possible members not to join because they aren't thin.
<snip>
Black people have that -feature- , a genetic disposition to putting on weight, and it means they have fat to burn when exercising.. and they have the calories in to fuel their exercise. They make great athletes partly thanks to that.
Alot of men -wish- they were the fat type. It's fuel for the gym. Fuel that not everybody obtains so easily. For them, being "thin" would be a negative thing. You are looking at being fat type as being a negative thing, listing health problems causing it, and saying some of the sages had the problem. But I wouldn't say it is necessarily a bad thing. Your implication is that being "thin", is not negative. You're a guy, I can tell, largely because your name is Shlomo. So you should know of -a- mentality specific to men that like working out, where being fat is fuel for the gym, and being thin is not.
Im so confused by everything you are saying. When I was younger I was extremely thin... (6'4" and 175 lb)... and I could workout forever. I could run 3 miles in UNDER 15 minutes(second fastest time in school history). I could run the 400 meter in 50 seconds, and easily dunk, with a 36 inch vertical leap. (I had a higher vert leap when I wasnt doing endurance training). I could NEVER get fat, no matter what I ate because of my high metabolism.
Now, 19 years later, I'm over 210 lbs, and have a hard time walking up a flight of stairs. I am an embarrassment in the gym. I look more like a sitcom Dad than an athlete. I would love to get back to at least 190. I aint proud of my fat.... to me its a sign of my own sloth.
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Black people have that -feature- , a genetic disposition to putting on weight, and it means they have fat to burn when exercising.. and they have the calories in to fuel their exercise. They make great athletes partly thanks to that.
Alot of men -wish- they were the fat type. It's fuel for the gym. Fuel that not everybody obtains so easily. For them, being "thin" would be a negative thing. You are looking at being fat type as being a negative thing, listing health problems causing it, and saying some of the sages had the problem. But I wouldn't say it is necessarily a bad thing. Your implication is that being "thin", is not negative. You're a guy, I can tell, largely because your name is Shlomo. So you should know of -a- mentality specific to men that like working out, where being fat is fuel for the gym, and being thin is not.
Im so confused by everything you are saying. When I was younger I was extremely thin... (6'4" and 175 lb)... and I could workout forever. I could run 3 miles in UNDER 15 minutes(second fastest time in school history). I could run the 400 meter in 50 seconds, and easily dunk, with a 36 inch vertical leap. (I had a higher vert leap when I wasnt doing endurance training). I could NEVER get fat, no matter what I ate because of my high metabolism.
Now, 19 years later, I'm over 210 lbs, and have a hard time walking up a flight of stairs. I am an embarrassment in the gym. I look more like a sitcom Dad than an athlete. I would love to get back to at least 190. I aint proud of my fat.... to me its a sign of my own sloth.
At 6'4 175lb you would not have been carrying much muscle.. the muscle mass advantage over others would have been in your long limbs, which is from your 6'4 aspect.
Maybe you were good as a runner.. but not as a weightlifter. (certainly not compared to others your height).
175lb is not very big for 6'4. You hadn't built that much muscle.
If you had looked to build muscle, you'd have needed more calories.
Now though, you have an excess of calories..
Be lazier about eating, and you'll eat less. Eating isn't such an exciting thing.
For your 6'4 175lb self to gain weight or as you said, get fat, would have required alot more work. You figured it was impossible..
Alot of thin people also have trouble getting up the stairs..
I wouldn't get embarrassed over it.
I've had times when a set of stairs have almost killed me.. I've been to a gym and worked out on an exercise bike for 2 minutes.. taken a 5 minute break. come back.. I guess it drew attention to myself.. as it would if I did pullups with somebody on my back. There's always somebody doing something and people look. You don't have to embarrass yourself going red in the face. If you are 6'4 and you walk into a gym, that will attract attention, it doesn't mean people think what you think they do.
I once went to a gym with a rather large friend.. this black guy on the weights machine took one look at us and said that I should go and eat at his(my friend's) house for a month!
In this day and age, many -guys- want to build muscle, and with that goal, it's very important to get lots of calories in. That takes lots of work daily.. The muscle building exercises themselves aren't that time consuming. If you are large.. And in BMI terms you are actually the right side of healthy plus one point.. you are just touching overweight. In terms of calory intake that would be an exciting opportunity for many people wanting to build muscle.
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q_q_ you should write a book with the title
Be lazier about eating, and you'll eat less. Eating isn't such an exciting thing.
You'd make a million bucks.
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q_q_ you should write a book with the title
Be lazier about eating, and you'll eat less. Eating isn't such an exciting thing.
You'd make a million bucks.
It won't help if aliens are force-feeding people during the night.
I haven't ruled out that possibility.
People are actually going to shops, they make an effort to, they see healthy food and unhealthy food, and they choose unhealthy food, and think about unhealthy food as good. I don't know what's wrong with them..
I think people attach emotions to foods and eat them purely based on how good they taste. If they are so emotional, can't they make the emotional connection that unhealthy food = bad. It's like smoking.
It's very silly. If people only bought/stocked healthy foods in their home, and just ate them, they wouldn't want to eat as much!
They'd need to eat more often, but that would be a nuisance too, because who likes to make food and wash up.... so they'd be lazy about it and eat less.
The only way most people are gaining all this weight must be from pre-packaged unhealthy food. Maybe each has 1000-2000 calories a time, and they eat these things 3 times a day.
If people just stopped doing that, they'd be thin, women would be happy, and guys would be thin unless they made a tremendous effort to gain weight(which they'd only do for the gym anyway).
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Leave the alien part out :crazy: and you have a best seller. Maybe you should leave it in, humor is always appreciated. Just remember to include me in the dedication ;).