JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: gsnyc on March 23, 2007, 04:21:57 PM
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=Buy8dLlfBZE&mode=related&search=
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Chaim was asked a similar question on a past episode of Ask JTF
He doesn't like Jewish kids imitating blacks.
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More like reggae than rap? ??? I liked it.
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I hate rap music its nothing but noise and its not even good to lesson to it. Unfournitaly my brothers likes it and act like a Schirvitaas.
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Gimme me a break. Chaim is right when he says that Jews shouldn't imitate black culture but he is dead-wrong about Matisyahu.
Matisyahu blends rap and reggae with rock and a capella. It is true that rap and reggae are black noise but rock is American and a capella is Italian. In Judaism, a capella is called 'Sefirah' and it is usually performed while celebrating the Sabbath, in the absence of musical instruments.
Personally, I've met Matisyahu and he is a soft-spoken, kind-hearted person. His concerts on college campuses are filled with religious Jews and secular Jews (like myself), who would otherwise have very little to do with Judaism. If he inspires one Jew to take more interest in Judaism, he will be blessed by Hashem.
He is not a Woody Allen type Jew or an Ehud Olmert type Jew, the ones we are so critical of. He is a real Jew, whose talents in music should be commended by JTF.
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Blacks have contributed quality music to the sonic landscape of mankind in positive ways that are undeniable. This even so to a very minor degree with rap, although I would say that, in that regard not since the late 80's/early 90's and mostly from a production point of view, not the vile crap that is "talked" about in the lyrics. Jazz is another story. I have heard different opinions about it's origin, the influence of Klezmer,etc. But Jazz is a vital, living and breathing art that has been reinvented and developed mostly by blacks over the last century. When Chaim says across the board he can't stand when blacks play Jazz I have to wonder if he needs a hearing aid ;). Either he hasn't heard the likes of Eric Dolphy, Thelonious Monk or Bud Powell or he just doesn't care but I think in this area Chaim makes some outrageous comments sometimes. Miles Davis was a vile human being but undenialbly a musical genius. At least twice in his career he redirected the current trends within Jazz in unique and original ways[Cool Jazz and [censored] Brew] that had an enormous impact on what followed. The reggae sounds of Bob Marley and the Wailers, 60's Soul and Funk from the likes of Ike[another animal] and Tina Turner, Aretha Franklin, James Brown and Parliament Funkadelic as well as people like Sammy Davis Jr., Mahalia Jackson and Elmore James have enriched the musical palette of mankind from which any and all creative people can draw inspiration and ideas from. To deny this is simply wrong and creatively foolish. 8)
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Matisyahu is an extremely talented musician. My brother knows him personally and he is a very Good Jew.
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Matisyahu is an extremely talented musician. My brother knows him personally and he is a very Good Jew.
your brother should talk him into joining JTF ;)
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Actually, I think that black rap noise was a take off on early white rap style music. Early white "rap" music sounded nothing like the black rap noise of today and was quite good and musical, telling a story in the song for a change, but I only know of a few popular songs using it before it was taken over by the blacks. One of my favorite artists from the 80's is Falco (even though he was an immoral bastard) and some of his songs were quite good like "Rock me amadaous" and "Jeanny". He used a unique form of early white rap that was really good and musical (so much so that most can't tell it is a rap like style) but no one followed him really and it was taken over by the blacks and turned into this horrible noise.
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I always thought that rap was entirely black in origin.
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I always thought that rap was entirely black in origin.
It is maybe. I don't know what came first, early rap era white music that was vaguely similar to rap but was much more refined or black rap noise. But in the 80's, the whites had a good take off on it but it never stuck.
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Yakov, I was talking about something else, listen to "Rock me amadaos" and "Jeanny (don't watch the video for this one since it is vulgar)" on youtube by falco. That stuff sounds sort of like rap but is a completely different style of white origin and is really good stuff. I guess blacks never refined their crude concept of rap noise but the whites knew how to improve upon it and make it musical. Falco's style was unique and was never really duplicated as far as I know but it was really good. He liked blacks though. One of his vids has blacks singing with him and his back up singer was black. So probably black noise came first since according to wikipedia, it came around in the mid 70's.
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Black music became black in nature in The 1970's with disco. It was still not completely bad though. Eventually it became bad when it turned into R&B and hip hop.
R&B or "rhythm & blues" pre-dates the 1950's rock and roll explosion.
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Actually, I think that black rap noise was a take off on early white rap style music. Early white "rap" music sounded nothing like the black rap noise of today and was quite good and musical, telling a story in the song for a change, but I only know of a few popular songs using it before it was taken over by the blacks. One of my favorite artists from the 80's is Falco (even though he was an immoral bastard) and some of his songs were quite good like "Rock me amadaous" and "Jeanny". He used a unique form of early white rap that was really good and musical (so much so that most can't tell it is a rap like style) but no one followed him really and it was taken over by the blacks and turned into this horrible noise.
Rap music first appeared around 1969-1970 with Gil Scott-Heron and the Last Poets. They both recited poetic Black Panther rhetoric over conga drums initially and later jazzed up funk. Both are musically great but their ideas are not. By the end of the 1970's Rap was beginning to take the shape of a "rapper" rhyming over "beats" meaning a DJ that manipulated two copies of the same record at once to create a static "beat", something VERY difficult to do, by the way. Rap is a totally black "street" art form that initially was an intended replacement for gang violence in the South Bronx, gangsters battle rapped with their words instead of weapons. By the late 80's technology was such that samplers replaced the dual turntable thing and "beats" became more sophisticated and multi-layered. Myself and a friend were specialising in "beat digging" at that time, that is finding interesting sounds on obscure records and selling them to the highest bidder. So I was in that world for awhile and made alot of money digging up beats. The record companies were throwing money at these guys in the early 90's to buy "samples/beats" and there were some very talented producers, like DJ Premier. The current degenerate sounding rap noise is no different than the degeneration that has gone on in music in general. Can you compare 60's 70's rock like Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Lynyrd Skynyrd or Blondie to crap like Kid Rock or Limp Bizkit? By the way, the greatest DJ/Producer in the world who has a grasp of music in general that makes me feel stupid is a white guy named DJ Shadow :-*
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Yeah, I guess before the digital era it was hard as hell to get those weird beat sequences worked out. But nowadays, every rap song has the same basic beat. I don't hear much sampling done anymore. So in effect the black rap noise started out bad and got even worse since there is no more creativity. I think the white rappers are half decent compared to the black ones. Some of emenem's songs sound half decent and he is a white guy but the blacks probably hate him for that.
Overall, I ONLY LIKE 80'S MUSIC and can't stand modern music. There is no more creativity and it is all fake. I know a lot about sound engenering and can tell you that 99% of the songs on the radio are more technology than musical talent. Also, equipment was better in the 80's. I bought a vingage 80's reverb machine since I like the simple old sound better than the overdone new machines.
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I'm talking about the modern one. What was it like before? It was probably just Southern blacks moaning and groaning. Now it has a modern tune to it. The old blues music is nothing like R&B of today. Did it come from jazz? If it did, then it has its routes in Jewish Klezmer music.
I don't know about "Southern blacks moaning and groaning" but it's always a better day when Elmore James or Big Joe Turner bless my ears!! I have heard different accounts of the very origins of Jazz and Klezmers connection to it. I am not 100% sure Chaim is right about that, I don't know. My interest in Jazz starts with Bebop, around the late 40's. There is alot of music before that called "Jazz" I am not a historian enough to comment.
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Bebop was really good. I am a fan of it. Did blacks invent that or did they copy the whites? That early black bebop song "in the still of the night" was really good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBT3oDMCWpI (no studio sound tweaking there, pure musical talent). Compare that to modern rap noise. Why did the black music degenerate so much?
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Yeah, I guess before the digital era it was hard as hell to get those weird beat sequences worked out. But nowadays, every rap song has the same basic beat. I don't hear much sampling done anymore. So in effect the black rap noise started out bad and got even worse since there is no more creativity. I think the white rappers are half decent compared to the black ones. Some of emenem's songs sound half decent and he is a white guy but the blacks probably hate him for that.
Overall, I ONLY LIKE 80'S MUSIC and can't stand modern music. There is no more creativity and it is all fake. I know a lot about sound engenering and can tell you that 99% of the songs on the radio are more technology than musical talent. Also, equipment was better in the 80's. I bought a vingage 80's reverb machine since I like the simple old sound better than the overdone new machines.
Emenem sounds like every other bad rapper today to me. You are right though, there is no creativity in modern rap. Only propaganda promoting evil. Back in the 80's there was a rap group called Eric B & Rakim. Rakim's command of the English language was amazing, a regular Churchill!!! If you ever want to hear a very funny rap lp[though it has alot of profanity] there were two girls that made 1 lp called "Bytches With Problems" or BWP. They rip black men to shreds, it's so funny and the music isn't bad either!!
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Bebop was really good. I am a fan of it. Did blacks invent that or did they copy the whites? That early black bebop song "in the still of the night" was really good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBT3oDMCWpI (no studio sound tweaking there, pure musical talent). Compare that to modern rap noise. Why did the black music degenerate so much?
Bebop is a purely black invention, it is said that one of it's inventors, Charlie Parker, said he wanted to create a music that whites couldn't play, and thus couldn't steal. I knew a guy once who was a trained musician and studied Charlie Parker's solos and thought they were created by someone from another planet, almost impossible to play. I am not a musician, I just know what I like.
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David told me that he likes some type of black music from The 1950's (I forget what it is called.) and that Chaim gets mad at David for that.
Maybe David meant Do-wop, a popular form of black vocal music from the 50's, though I think Italians were also prolific in that genre. Chaim sounds like blacks have never accomplished anything EVER sometimes. That's just not true. I would love to hear Chaim debate Phil Schapp from WKCR Columbia University on this subject. Would be interesting to say the least.
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I am a amateur musician I guess and think there are 3 types of music based on the methods one must use to sing them (I practice singing on my spare time and play guitar).
Opera style music which is the same as old style Europian Cantor prayer music (oh, I come from a line of famous cantors) is sung deeply from one's lungs and it takes a lot of practice to sing this way (took me five years to develop the talent to sing this way).
Pop music is sung in a speaking style with very little vibrato of the opera style mixed in once in a while to give it an edge.
Rock music is sung in a rough edgy manner.
Every other style of music is based on one of these three styles. The only genuine musical style is the first, opera style since a talented singer can sing this very load so hundreds of people can hear one sing without a mic. The other 2 styles are of modern era out of necessity since no one can sing these styles of music loud enough to be heard over a band or for hundreds of people to hear without a mic. Rock music is of even more modern origin since it absolutely needs compression for it to sound like rock music. No one can sing a genuine rock song by mouth without using a microphone with a compressor. Pop music and rock music need microphones to be heard so they are not really as genuine as opera style music. The real music is opera which the last songs sung this way was duop and a few celine dion songs here and there.
Addendum: Modern rap music basically someone speaks using very heavy compression so it gives the voice an upfront type of sound. It requires no talent. All you need is a compressor and you can be a rapper.
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Where did pop come from? Where did Britney type music come from? Did it come from rock originally?
Here is a loose theory of mine; Rock and Roll from the 1950's was very catchy and simple, beautiful little nuggets of sound. As the 60's rolled on things started to expand and influences from everywhere started to flesh out Rock and Roll and the "catchy and simple" pop song was sometimes embellished, sometimes discarded. As the 70's rolled on the expansion was being taken to absurd heights[Emerson Lake & Palmer touring with a 100 piece Orchestra, Pink Floyds huge Animals floating around the venues] and still the "catchy & simple" pop tune never totally disappeared. Then, as the youth in England were becoming fed up with all this pomp and circumstance in "Rock" the lone catchy and simple pop song remerged and it was pissed off. The freight train called Punk was about to wreak havoc!! Sex Pistols singer Johnny Rotten regularly trashed every icon known to the rock pantheon. Once the temperature dropped a bit this led the way to New Wave, a sanitized version of punk that was radio friendly. Britney Spears is a twinkle in her father's eye at this point. Truth is that the more corporate interests touch something the dirtier and weaker it becomes, combined with a general dumbing down of people. The greatest pop song writers in my opinion were Marc Bolan & T-Rex,The Beatles and Elton John. Kurt Cobain had a great pop sensability that made Nirvana a good group, I think.
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Rap music first appeared around 1969-1970 with Gil Scott-Heron and the Last Poets. They both recited poetic Black Panther rhetoric over conga drums initially and later jazzed up funk. Both are musically great but their ideas are not. By the end of the 1970's Rap was beginning to take the shape of a "rapper" rhyming over "beats" meaning a DJ that manipulated two copies of the same record at once to create a static "beat", something VERY difficult to do, by the way. Rap is a totally black "street" art form that initially was an intended replacement for gang violence in the South Bronx, gangsters battle rapped with their words instead of weapons. By the late 80's technology was such that samplers replaced the dual turntable thing and "beats" became more sophisticated and multi-layered. Myself and a friend were specialising in "beat digging" at that time, that is finding interesting sounds on obscure records and selling them to the highest bidder. So I was in that world for awhile and made alot of money digging up beats. The record companies were throwing money at these guys in the early 90's to buy "samples/beats" and there were some very talented producers, like DJ Premier. The current degenerate sounding rap noise is no different than the degeneration that has gone on in music in general. Can you compare 60's 70's rock like Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Lynyrd Skynyrd or Blondie to crap like Kid Rock or Limp Bizkit? By the way, the greatest DJ/Producer in the world who has a grasp of music in general that makes me feel stupid is a white guy named DJ Shadow :-*
This is very informative and you are very knowledgable. I'd just like to insert one comment: Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit fall under a new genre of "music" called "nu-metal" which is a fusion of rap and rock.
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I am a amateur musician I guess and think there are 3 types of music based on the methods one must use to sing them (I practice singing on my spare time and play guitar).
Opera style music which is the same as old style Europian Cantor prayer music (oh, I come from a line of famous cantors) is sung deeply from one's lungs and it takes a lot of practice to sing this way (took me five years to develop the talent to sing this way).
Pop music is sung in a speaking style with very little vibrato of the opera style mixed in once in a while to give it an edge.
Rock music is sung in a rough edgy manner.
Every other style of music is based on one of these three styles. The only genuine musical style is the first, opera style since a talented singer can sing this very load so hundreds of people can hear one sing without a mic. The other 2 styles are of modern era out of necessity since no one can sing these styles of music loud enough to be heard over a band or for hundreds of people to hear without a mic. Rock music is of even more modern origin since it absolutely needs compression for it to sound like rock music. No one can sing a genuine rock song by mouth without using a microphone with a compressor. Pop music and rock music need microphones to be heard so they are not really as genuine as opera style music. The real music is opera which the last songs sung this way was duop and a few celine dion songs here and there.
Addendum: Modern rap music basically someone speaks using very heavy compression so it gives the voice an upfront type of sound. It requires no talent. All you need is a compressor and you can be a rapper.
Although some of your technical points may be correct I think you are also over generalising things. Etta James could project herself quite effectively without a mic, and although I love Maria Callas I find Opera terribly boring, all technique and for me often no substance. I think because it is so unnatural. People don't communicate that way, wailing at one another! Lotsa technique, but very dull for me. Though I did hear some Wagner opera music yesterday that way pretty intense.
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Rap music first appeared around 1969-1970 with Gil Scott-Heron and the Last Poets. They both recited poetic Black Panther rhetoric over conga drums initially and later jazzed up funk. Both are musically great but their ideas are not. By the end of the 1970's Rap was beginning to take the shape of a "rapper" rhyming over "beats" meaning a DJ that manipulated two copies of the same record at once to create a static "beat", something VERY difficult to do, by the way. Rap is a totally black "street" art form that initially was an intended replacement for gang violence in the South Bronx, gangsters battle rapped with their words instead of weapons. By the late 80's technology was such that samplers replaced the dual turntable thing and "beats" became more sophisticated and multi-layered. Myself and a friend were specialising in "beat digging" at that time, that is finding interesting sounds on obscure records and selling them to the highest bidder. So I was in that world for awhile and made alot of money digging up beats. The record companies were throwing money at these guys in the early 90's to buy "samples/beats" and there were some very talented producers, like DJ Premier. The current degenerate sounding rap noise is no different than the degeneration that has gone on in music in general. Can you compare 60's 70's rock like Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Lynyrd Skynyrd or Blondie to crap like Kid Rock or Limp Bizkit? By the way, the greatest DJ/Producer in the world who has a grasp of music in general that makes me feel stupid is a white guy named DJ Shadow :-*
This is very informative and you are very knowledgable. I'd just like to insert one comment: Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit fall under a new genre of "music" called "nu-metal" which is a fusion of rap and rock.
It's not new, Run-DMC and Aerosmith did that 20 years ago and Public Enemy and Anthrax did it about 17 years ago. :)
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It's not new, Run-DMC and Aerosmith did that 20 years ago and Public Enemy and Anthrax did it about 17 years ago. :)
"Walk This Way" and "Bring The Noise". The concept certainly isn't new, but the term was recently coined.
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Although some of your technical points may be correct I think you are also over generalising things. Etta James could project herself quite effectively without a mic, and although I love Maria Callas I find Opera terribly boring, all technique and for me often no substance. I think because it is so unnatural. People don't communicate that way, wailing at one another! Lotsa technique, but very dull for me. Though I did hear some Wagner opera music yesterday that way pretty intense.
Actually, if you practice singing yourself you will see that there are indeed 3 basic styles. Any pop singer that projects themselves are really using opera style musical technique of singing through your chest. It is true that classical western opera is too dull and not emotionally moving but there are exceptions and modern broadway style opera is very moving. The European Cantors sang hands down the best opera musical style since they were very dynamic and moving since they were essentially praying to G-d. I just called it opera style since that what most people understand but really goes back thousands of years and should be called "singing through one's chest".
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It's not new, Run-DMC and Aerosmith did that 20 years ago and Public Enemy and Anthrax did it about 17 years ago. :)
"Walk This Way" and "Bring The Noise". The concept certainly isn't new, but the term was recently coined.
Some "modern" artists I like; Robbie Williams, Moby & Pink. But very occasionally!! :o
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Although some of your technical points may be correct I think you are also over generalising things. Etta James could project herself quite effectively without a mic, and although I love Maria Callas I find Opera terribly boring, all technique and for me often no substance. I think because it is so unnatural. People don't communicate that way, wailing at one another! Lotsa technique, but very dull for me. Though I did hear some Wagner opera music yesterday that way pretty intense.
Actually, if you practice singing yourself you will see that there are indeed 3 basic styles. Any pop singer that projects themselves are really using opera style musical technique of singing through your chest. It is true that classical western opera is too dull and not emotionally moving but there are exceptions and modern broadway style opera is very moving. The European Cantors sang hands down the best opera musical style since they were very dynamic and moving since they were essentially praying to G-d. I just called it opera style since that what most people understand but really goes back thousands of years and should be called "singing through one's chest".
I had a record of Cantorial singing awhile back, some of the names were Roitman, hmmmmm, I forget now, I sold the LP about 3 months ago. But you are right, that was quite good. Have you ever heard Meredith Monk? If so what do you think about her? I like her alot.
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I find that kind of talk rather disturbing.
Mattisyahu is an example of goodness in an otherwise trash filled musical arena. His music is a mix of rap and Reggae but has anyone stopped to listen to the Lyrics? They ALL praise Hashem!
In regular gangsta rap, most of the time it talks exclusively of the gold they've got round their necks, what kind of awesome car they've got, who they're going to bust a cap on and that kind of nonsense.
The style of music is not what is wicked. It's the message behind it. When the message changes...and if that message is a blessing to G-d...then who are you or anyone else to judge it?
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I find that kind of talk rather disturbing.
Mattisyahu is an example of goodness in an otherwise trash filled musical arena. His music is a mix of rap and Reggae but has anyone stopped to listen to the Lyrics? They ALL praise Hashem!
In regular gangsta rap, most of the time it talks exclusively of the gold they've got round their necks, what kind of awesome car they've got, who they're going to bust a cap on and that kind of nonsense.
The style of music is not what is wicked. It's the message behind it. When the message changes...and if that message is a blessing to G-d...then who are you or anyone else to judge it?
Exactly!
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Re: "...Where it came from; originators; when it became..."
I find myself quite bemused by the previous music lovers' opinions about music & musics.
If one truly wants to know and understand as much as possible about music, the first thing to always remember is that music, and the music business, are not one and the same.
Researching music and music history will dispel most of the views of the posters which I have been reading.
Music History JTF 101 (in a nutshell):
1. Earliest musics are essiantially unknown to modern man.
2. Western musics are based on the knowledge of the ancient Greeks.
3. Because early Muslims and Christians burned every manuscript they could find, only scraps of Greek music remain.
4. Musicologists consider that the traditional music of India is the closest we have today similar to that of the ancient world.
5. ALL modern western music theory, harmony, and composition, has its origins in The Roman Catholic Church. Other musics have developed respective to ethnicity (folk musics of different peoples), but were never formalized.
6. Rome, being the center of the Church, was the musical capital of Europe. As Europe evolved, so did its music. Great composers appeared in Austria, Britain, Holland, France; most if not all subsidized by society's elite; often as "Court Musician". Eventually, it was Germany which became the area in which modern music developed the most; this in spite of it being the last region to adapt music as an art form. Until just recently, serious students of music did their studies in Germany.
7. Negro musics indigenous to western Africa crossed the Atlantic with the slave ships, and was then assimmilated into the Western church-derived arts of musical composition and notation. Our modern "Blues", "Black Gospel singing", "R'n'B", "Rock'n'Roll", "Swing", "Jazz", genres, as well as their danceable rhythms, were originated by African slaves. Gershwin and other popular songwriters, based their compositions on the negro styles; not the other way around.
If one truly wants to know and understand music, pick one genre which is your favorite, and research it thoroughly; beginning with the present, and working backwards in time.
The labels which the "music industry" affix to market their products, are most often absurd & irrelevant.
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Re: "...Where it came from; originators; when it became..."
I find myself quite bemused by the previous music lovers' opinions about music & musics.
If one truly wants to know and understand as much as possible about music, the first thing to always remember is that music, and the music business, are not one and the same.
Researching music and music history will dispel most of the views of the posters which I have been reading.
Music History JTF 101 (in a nutshell):
1. Earliest musics are essiantially unknown to modern man.
2. Western musics are based on the knowledge of the ancient Greeks.
3. Because early Muslims and Christians burned every manuscript they could find, only scraps of Greek music remain.
4. Musicologists consider that the traditional music of India is the closest we have today similar to that of the ancient world.
5. ALL modern western music theory, harmony, and composition, has its origins in The Roman Catholic Church. Other musics have developed respective to ethnicity (folk musics of different peoples), but were never formalized.
6. Rome, being the center of the Church, was the musical capital of Europe. As Europe evolved, so did its music. Great composers appeared in Austria, Britain, Holland, France; most if not all subsidized by society's elite; often as "Court Musician". Eventually, it was Germany which became the area in which modern music developed the most; this in spite of it being the last region to adapt music as an art form. Until just recently, serious students of music did their studies in Germany.
7. Negro musics indigenous to western Africa crossed the Atlantic with the slave ships, and was then assimmilated into the Western church-derived arts of musical composition and notation. Our modern "Blues", "Black Gospel singing", "R'n'B", "Rock'n'Roll", "Swing", "Jazz", genres, as well as their danceable rhythms, were originated by African slaves. Gershwin and other popular songwriters, based their compositions on the negro styles; not the other way around.
If one truly wants to know and understand music, pick one genre which is your favorite, and research it thoroughly; beginning with the present, and working backwards in time.
The labels which the "music industry" affix to market their products, are most often absurd & irrelevant.
How do the developments within certain styles over shorter periods of time discussed here contradict your larger panoramic overview? I am just trying to find what exactly it is you said that should render things stated here by myself and others as disposable? ???
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I disagree with Mussadahgoodname. Roman Catholic music definitely did not come first. It is most likely a copy from the Choir style music the levites sang in the temple. I think all ancient cultures had there own musical style but we will never know about it since all manuscripts were probably destroyed.
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I disagree with Mussadahgoodname. Roman Catholic music definitely did not come first. It is most likely a copy from the Choir style music the levites sang in the temple. I think all ancient cultures had there own musical style but we will never know about it since all manuscripts were probably destroyed.
Jews have always embraced rhythm, no? Is there any indication that the Levite music you mention was rhythmic? The Roman Catholic church was directly responsible for destroying musical rhythms, especially in church music. Ever heard Gregorian chants? Yikes!!! Massuhdagoodname, what would you say is the step by step lineage between Bach and say Stockhausen or Boulez? Your writings seem to imply there is nothing new under the sun.
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Nothing is known about the exact style of the temple era. All that we know is that a group of levites sang at the temple constantly. There were levite families that sang, others which played instraments and others that took care of the temple. The exact instraments used at that time and the number of instrament players at a given time is menchaned in the Mishnah. These jobs were familial and would stay in the family for hundreds of years. They probably had good rythem since one of the instraments was a drum or cymbal. I don't remember the Mishnah by memory but I think that there was a harp, a drum or cymbal and some other instraments. From the fact that there were many singers and not one, it indicates that songs were sang in harmony or in choir style. Was there a lead singer or not is unclear. Personally, I think that cantorial music is similar to the original temple music. My grandfather and great grandfather who were cantors would train a choir to sing with them on high holidays in Synagague and would pray with a choir. Shlomo Carlebach said that the only original temple songs in existance are the sad traditional tunes sung by Jews in prayer on the Day of Attonement but I don't know if he is correct or not.
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I disagree with Mussadahgoodname. Roman Catholic music definitely did not come first. It is most likely a copy from the Choir style music the levites sang in the temple. I think all ancient cultures had there own musical style but we will never know about it since all manuscripts were probably destroyed.
Jews have always embraced rhythm, no? Is there any indication that the Levite music you mention was rhythmic? The Roman Catholic church was directly responsible for destroying musical rhythms, especially in church music. Ever heard Gregorian chants? Yikes!!! Massuhdagoodname, what would you say is the step by step lineage between Bach and say Stockhausen or Boulez? Your writings seem to imply there is nothing new under the sun.
LOL jdl4ever....nothing new under the sun. You realize of course, that's exactly what King Solomon said in Ecclesiastes. Right?
Ecclesiastes 1:9 JPS
9 That which hath been is that which shall be, and that which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is nothing new under the sun.
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Oops!
That was supposed to be to Allen-T
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Oops!
That was supposed to be to Allen-T
That's why I said it, it's one of my favorite Bible books ;) However, that doesn't mean that the creative process is futile or to be discarded.
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Re: "...Where it came from; originators; when it became..."
I find myself quite bemused by the previous music lovers' opinions about music & musics.
If one truly wants to know and understand as much as possible about music, the first thing to always remember is that music, and the music business, are not one and the same.
Researching music and music history will dispel most of the views of the posters which I have been reading.
Music History JTF 101 (in a nutshell):
1. Earliest musics are essiantially unknown to modern man.
2. Western musics are based on the knowledge of the ancient Greeks.
3. Because early Muslims and Christians burned every manuscript they could find, only scraps of Greek music remain.
4. Musicologists consider that the traditional music of India is the closest we have today similar to that of the ancient world.
5. ALL modern western music theory, harmony, and composition, has its origins in The Roman Catholic Church. Other musics have developed respective to ethnicity (folk musics of different peoples), but were never formalized.
6. Rome, being the center of the Church, was the musical capital of Europe. As Europe evolved, so did its music. Great composers appeared in Austria, Britain, Holland, France; most if not all subsidized by society's elite; often as "Court Musician". Eventually, it was Germany which became the area in which modern music developed the most; this in spite of it being the last region to adapt music as an art form. Until just recently, serious students of music did their studies in Germany.
7. Negro musics indigenous to western Africa crossed the Atlantic with the slave ships, and was then assimmilated into the Western church-derived arts of musical composition and notation. Our modern "Blues", "Black Gospel singing", "R'n'B", "Rock'n'Roll", "Swing", "Jazz", genres, as well as their danceable rhythms, were originated by African slaves. Gershwin and other popular songwriters, based their compositions on the negro styles; not the other way around.
If one truly wants to know and understand music, pick one genre which is your favorite, and research it thoroughly; beginning with the present, and working backwards in time.
The labels which the "music industry" affix to market their products, are most often absurd & irrelevant.
great post massuh D
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Re: "...The Roman Catholic church was directly responsible for destroying musical rhythms, especially in church music...Massuhdagoodname, what would you say is the step by step lineage between Bach and say Stockhausen or Boulez? Your writings seem to imply there is nothing new under the sun.
Pierre Boulez has composed music, but is better known for his conducting skills.
The Roman Catholic Church evolved into the Holy Roman Empire. It governed Europe after ancient Rome's demise, and governed as a Theocracy comparable to that in Iran today. Because of The Triune Doctrine, the Church outlawed and banned all music except that in 3/4 meter (3 representing the Holy Trinity).
Connecting the dots from Bach to Stockhausen must involve "giant steps":
Johann Sebastian Bach's body of work is called "The Tanach of Modern Western Music". Thorough knowledge of his keyboard compositions is a pre-requisite as setting the basics for all music that followed. Bach also devised the ability to transpose musical keys as well as modulate from one to another within a composition. He accomplished this by altering the pure vibrational tones found in the natural scale. The result is the music we love today, and hear as being "in tune". In fact, it is actually "out of tune". If you've ever walked past tower bells ringing, which sounded kind of "sour" and "in need of a tune-up", then you've heard the actual pure notes of nature. Prior to his genius, all musics had to begin and end in the same key structure, and were greatly limited in their harmonic development.
A giant step from J.S. Bach leads us to Ludwig Van Beethoven, whose body of piano compositions are known today as "The New Testament of Modern Western Music". Beethoven expanded the existing symphonic structure, composed radically different works, and paved the way for the musical composers of the 20th Century.
After Beethoven, another giant step over to Richard Wagner. One of history's greatest artists, Wagner developed the orchestral concept of "Polytonality"; composition unlimited in key tonality; able to begin in one key, and immediately and continuously modulate from one key to another, in an endless harmonic structure of incredible complexity and depth.
Because of Wagner, the next giant step was to be expanded by the composers known today as The Second Vienna School. These great musicians built upon all previous forms, experimenting with innovative notation, innovative scoring, and the radical Serial Composition; basing entire large scale works on scalar models derived from numerical computations; including the reliance on chance as to the placement of notes. These giants of music, among whom were many Jews, made a tremendous impact on the world of art; so much so that Hitler chased each and every one out of Europe and banned the study or performance of their music. Today the "way out" music we take for granted in science fiction movie soundtracks, and on TV scores, is very likely based on their creativie innovations.
The Second Vienna School is also associated with the modern ideas of "Electronic Composition" made quite acceptable by composer Karl-Heinz Stockhausen. Today, computer composition, as well as performance on computer generated synthesized instruments of every kind, is taken for granted.
Personally, I do indeed believe that 'there is nothing new under the Sun". This is stated in the Jewish Scriptures, and it is possible that greater and more progressive musical and technological developments than we know today, were developed by other civilizations thousands of years ago, unknown to us because they've been lost to antiquity.
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Re: "...The Roman Catholic church was directly responsible for destroying musical rhythms, especially in church music...Massuhdagoodname, what would you say is the step by step lineage between Bach and say Stockhausen or Boulez? Your writings seem to imply there is nothing new under the sun.
Pierre Boulez has composed music, but is better known for his conducting skills.
The Roman Catholic Church evolved into the Holy Roman Empire. It governed Europe after ancient Rome's demise, and governed as a Theocracy comparable to that in Iran today. Because of The Triune Doctrine, the Church outlawed and banned all music except that in 3/4 meter (3 representing the Holy Trinity).
Connecting the dots from Bach to Stockhausen must involve "giant steps":
Johann Sebastian Bach's body of work is called "The Tanach of Modern Western Music". Thorough knowledge of his keyboard compositions is a pre-requisite as setting the basics for all music that followed. Bach also devised the ability to transpose musical keys as well as modulate from one to another within a composition. He accomplished this by altering the pure vibrational tones found in the natural scale. The result is the music we love today, and hear as being "in tune". In fact, it is actually "out of tune". If you've ever walked past tower bells ringing, which sounded kind of "sour" and "in need of a tune-up", then you've heard the actual pure notes of nature. Prior to his genius, all musics had to begin and end in the same key structure, and were greatly limited in their harmonic development.
A giant step from J.S. Bach leads us to Ludwig Van Beethoven, whose body of piano compositions are known today as "The New Testament of Modern Western Music". Beethoven expanded the existing symphonic structure, composed radically different works, and paved the way for the musical composers of the 20th Century.
After Beethoven, another giant step over to Richard Wagner. One of history's greatest artists, Wagner developed the orchestral concept of "Polytonality"; composition unlimited in key tonality; able to begin in one key, and immediately and continuously modulate from one key to another, in an endless harmonic structure of incredible complexity and depth.
Because of Wagner, the next giant step was to be expanded by the composers known today as The Second Vienna School. These great musicians built upon all previous forms, experimenting with innovative notation, innovative scoring, and the radical Serial Composition; basing entire large scale works on scalar models derived from numerical computations; including the reliance on chance as to the placement of notes. These giants of music, among whom were many Jews, made a tremendous impact on the world of art; so much so that Hitler chased each and every one out of Europe and banned the study or performance of their music. Today the "way out" music we take for granted in science fiction movie soundtracks, and on TV scores, is very likely based on their creativie innovations.
The Second Vienna School is also associated with the modern ideas of "Electronic Composition" made quite acceptable by composer Karl-Heinz Stockhausen. Today, computer composition, as well as performance on computer generated synthesized instruments of every kind, is taken for granted.
Personally, I do indeed believe that 'there is nothing new under the Sun". This is stated in the Jewish Scriptures, and it is possible that greater and more progressive musical and technological developments than we know today, were developed by other civilizations thousands of years ago, unknown to us because they've been lost to antiquity.
Very informative. Are you a professional musician or do you work professionally in some musical capacity?
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Just an hour ago I turned on the radio to find something good to listen too and there is absolutely no good music today. It's all crap. Either it's the same thing over and over again or it's just so much studio digital effects that it sounds so fake. Why must every song played on the radio be dubbed, frequently more than once? And why does every female vocal have computerized pitch shifting in it? What fake nonsense. The 1980's was the last good decade of music. Answer me this. Is there any recent song on the radio that is not dubbed or pitch shifted? There are almost none.
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Re: "...Very informative. Are you a professional musician or do you work professionally in some musical capacity?..."
WORK?
"So...who wants to work?.... We're musicians!" -- Bob Hope, to the Hotel Lounge Manager who just threw him & Bing & their band out into the back alley and promised them "I'll see to it that YOU WILL NEVER WORK AGAIN!" from Paramount Studios' "The Road To Rio"
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Re: "...Just an hour ago I turned on the radio to find something good to listen too and there is absolutely no good music today. It's all crap..."
It's much, much worse than crap. I agree with you completely. I do know where fantastic stuff is to be found & heard. None is on the radio or television. Depending on your tastes, I might could point the direction for you. Very little of it, almost none, is current. However, you stress the word "good"; as opposed to current. Private message me if you have any interest.
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Just an hour ago I turned on the radio to find something good to listen too and there is absolutely no good music today. It's all crap. Either it's the same thing over and over again or it's just so much studio digital effects that it sounds so fake. Why must every song played on the radio be dubbed, frequently more than once? And why does every female vocal have computerized pitch shifting in it? What fake nonsense. The 1980's was the last good decade of music. Answer me this. Is there any recent song on the radio that is not dubbed or pitch shifted? There are almost none.
What difference does it make? Buy CDs!! Or if you are really adventurous hit flea markets and garage sales where incredible music can be found on vinyl records for pennies!!![You'll need a turntable, of course] ;D
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Re: "...The Roman Catholic church was directly responsible for destroying musical rhythms, especially in church music...Massuhdagoodname, what would you say is the step by step lineage between Bach and say Stockhausen or Boulez? Your writings seem to imply there is nothing new under the sun.
Pierre Boulez has composed music, but is better known for his conducting skills.
The Roman Catholic Church evolved into the Holy Roman Empire. It governed Europe after ancient Rome's demise, and governed as a Theocracy comparable to that in Iran today. Because of The Triune Doctrine, the Church outlawed and banned all music except that in 3/4 meter (3 representing the Holy Trinity).
Connecting the dots from Bach to Stockhausen must involve "giant steps":
Johann Sebastian Bach's body of work is called "The Tanach of Modern Western Music". Thorough knowledge of his keyboard compositions is a pre-requisite as setting the basics for all music that followed. Bach also devised the ability to transpose musical keys as well as modulate from one to another within a composition. He accomplished this by altering the pure vibrational tones found in the natural scale. The result is the music we love today, and hear as being "in tune". In fact, it is actually "out of tune". If you've ever walked past tower bells ringing, which sounded kind of "sour" and "in need of a tune-up", then you've heard the actual pure notes of nature. Prior to his genius, all musics had to begin and end in the same key structure, and were greatly limited in their harmonic development.
A giant step from J.S. Bach leads us to Ludwig Van Beethoven, whose body of piano compositions are known today as "The New Testament of Modern Western Music". Beethoven expanded the existing symphonic structure, composed radically different works, and paved the way for the musical composers of the 20th Century.
After Beethoven, another giant step over to Richard Wagner. One of history's greatest artists, Wagner developed the orchestral concept of "Polytonality"; composition unlimited in key tonality; able to begin in one key, and immediately and continuously modulate from one key to another, in an endless harmonic structure of incredible complexity and depth.
Because of Wagner, the next giant step was to be expanded by the composers known today as The Second Vienna School. These great musicians built upon all previous forms, experimenting with innovative notation, innovative scoring, and the radical Serial Composition; basing entire large scale works on scalar models derived from numerical computations; including the reliance on chance as to the placement of notes. These giants of music, among whom were many Jews, made a tremendous impact on the world of art; so much so that Hitler chased each and every one out of Europe and banned the study or performance of their music. Today the "way out" music we take for granted in science fiction movie soundtracks, and on TV scores, is very likely based on their creativie innovations.
The Second Vienna School is also associated with the modern ideas of "Electronic Composition" made quite acceptable by composer Karl-Heinz Stockhausen. Today, computer composition, as well as performance on computer generated synthesized instruments of every kind, is taken for granted.
Personally, I do indeed believe that 'there is nothing new under the Sun". This is stated in the Jewish Scriptures, and it is possible that greater and more progressive musical and technological developments than we know today, were developed by other civilizations thousands of years ago, unknown to us because they've been lost to antiquity.
MassahDGoodname,
Help me out here. In your writing above you acknowledge these giant steps from Bach to Stockhausen. Was each step "something new under the sun" if not completely than at least considerably so and if that is true, than is it since a certain period within the last century that things stopped being "new"? Or, would you say that all of what you stated would fall under the description "there's nothing new under the sun" and if so, why? I hope that makes sense. Thanks.
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Re: "...Very informative. Are you a professional musician or do you work professionally in some musical capacity?..."
WORK?
"So...who wants to work?.... We're musicians!" -- Bob Hope, to the Hotel Lounge Manager who just threw him & Bing & their band out into the back alley and promised them "I'll see to it that YOU WILL NEVER WORK AGAIN!" from Paramount Studios' "The Road To Rio"
Some people are blessed that they actually get paid to do what they love. I was just wondering if this was the case for you.